Author Topic: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?  (Read 5797 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #210 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 10:38:26 »
4WD, keep going just a couple verses later from Romans 5:1-2 with its “being justified by faith” to Romans 5:9.  “Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY *HIS BLOOD*, we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH *HIM*” (not through us).
Yes, most certainly.  But that is only for those who believe in God.

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Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness, true, but that is not a statement saying that it MADE him righteous to begin with.
I have never said, implied, suggested, or even hinted that faith made anyone righteous.  We are not made righteous by anything or anyone or even God.  Yet because we believe in Him, God imputes His righteousness to us.

Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.


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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #210 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 10:38:26 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #211 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 01:36:51 »
Greetings Jarroh
Jarrod.  If you're going to use my name, please get it right.

Instead of re-writing in a vernacular language where the modern man can grasp, please at your convenience read one of the two articles above~preferring Samuel Richardson, but either are very good.
So... instead of elucidating, we're further obfuscating?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation.

I did give Sam Richardson a short try, and found that the definition of justification on the first page is already wrong-headed by my reckoning.  Frankly, I'm not much interested in what Sam thinks, and I quit on him right there.

Can you not just put it in simple words?

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #212 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:31:19 »
Jarrod.  If you're going to use my name, please get it right.
Sorry about your name.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 01:36:51
So... instead of elucidating, we're further obfuscating?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation.
It is you, and most others of the twenty first century. Most in our days are too use of hearing twenty-five minutes sermons, of story telling and jokes and they call that teaching/preaching, etc. Maybe not you personally, but the sad state of the overall churches throughout this world.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 01:36:51
but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation
Of course it is not, but since you said:
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying.
I gave links to what the men of God ( could have given many, many more ) taught and believe in~not just men here and there, BUT CHURCHES throughout Europe and many of the first people who came to America in 1500 to 1600 hundred~I KNOW, I have personally visited certain places and saw first hand exactly what they taught ( by searching in their archives ) the people! From Georgetown S.C. to Jamestown Virginia, all the way up to Maine~PARTICLUAR BAPTIST that first settlers here taught exactly the doctrine of Justification through Christ's faith ALONE, that Samuel Richardson other Baptist churches taught in England~I provided just two links because you said: I have no idea what you're saying....Well, you should have at least known where I was coming from if you had a little knowledge of the church's history outside of the bia RCC history.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
I did give Sam Richardson a short try, and found that the definition of justification on the first page is already wrong-headed by my reckoning.
It does not surprise me that you would disagree since you have never even considered the subject ( maybe never even heard of it ) in light of the old paths that men of God taught the people post 1800! Since then has gone down hill especially even more so since 1900 with the birth of the lying Charismatic movement with their lying signs and wonders that have taken the place of preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
Can you not just put it in simple words?
Jarrod, I will try in my forthcoming posts.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 15:12:36 by RB »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #212 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:31:19 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #213 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:50:15 »
Jarrod, give us 4 non-jargon words to compare to Red’s jargon words. i would submit that most of our language consists of jargon words to somebody.

How would you present the gospel and not use the Jargon words Red did or the many others?

Also would elucidating and obfuscating be jargon words as well?

It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 05:06:12 by Jaime »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #213 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:50:15 »
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Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #214 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 05:23:56 »
Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.

 James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #214 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 05:23:56 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #215 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 14:18:37 »
Jarrod, give us 4 non-jargon words to compare to Red’s jargon words. I would submit that most of our language consists of jargon words to somebody.
It's more likely to replace them with a phrase than a single word, but the challenge is interesting, so why not?

In place of grace (χάρις), the modern word charitable fits the basic meaning.  It's an adjective rather than a noun, so you probably have to play with the sentence a bit, or else resign yourself to the clunky-yet-understandable word charitableness.  Bonus - it's the etymological descendant of the Greek word actually used in the Bible.

In place of perfect (τέλειος), let's use mature or complete.  Modern English has made perfect to mean unblemished, which is not the meaning of the word as it is used in the Bible.

In place of faith (πίστις) or believe (πιστεύω), let's use trust or rely/reliance.  Modern English has the word believe as indicating intellectual assent, where the Biblical word is explicitly more than this.

Justification (dikaioō) is tricky, as it has more than one meaning, depending on context.  Where the Greek verb is passive, it could be easily replaced with acquitted or vindicated.  As an active verb, the word defend is more appropriate.  As a noun, the word has retained its English meaning (the reason for acquittal) and works just fine - except that the regular vernacular meaning is usually not what theologians mean when they use the word.

How would you present the gospel and not use the Jargon words Red did or the many others?
First we'd have to agree on what the gospel is, which I've found over the years is more contentious than one would expect.  I'm skipping this question because I think it will sidetrack the conversation.

Also would elucidating and obfuscating be jargon words as well?
No.  Jargon are words that are either used only within a specialized field, or words that have specialized meaning when used in that field.  These 2 words fit neither criteria.

It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.

Jarrod

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #215 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 14:18:37 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #216 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 14:41:40 »
I gave links to what the men of God ( could have given many, many more ) taught and believe in~not just men here and there, BUT CHURCHES throughout Europe and many of the first people who came to America in 1500 to 1600 hundred~I KNOW, I have personally visited certain places and saw first hand exactly what they taught ( by searching in their archives ) the people! From Georgetown S.C. to Jamestown Virginia, all the way up to Maine~PARTICLUAR BAPTIST that first settlers here taught exactly the doctrine of Justification through Christ's faith ALONE, that Samuel Richardson other Baptist churches taught in England~
Usually, I actively avoid theology from this period.  It is too far after-the-fact to hold weight as being the genuine opinions of the New Testament church.  It is too far behind-the-times to hold much relevancy to today.  Change my mind.

I provided just two links because you said: I have no idea what you're saying....Well, you should have at least known where I was coming from if you had a little knowledge of the church's history outside of the bia RCC history. It does not surprise me that you would disagree since you have never even considered the subject ( maybe never even heard of it ) in light of the old paths that men of God taught the people post 1800! Since it has gone done hill especially even more so since 1900 with the birth of the lying Charismatic movement with their lying signs and wonders that have taken the place of preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
I tend to prioritize the beliefs of the early church, and if a theological point doesn't exist within their paradigm... it must not be very important.  ::pondering::  Campbellite tendencies... I blame all of you here for that. rofl

I am still not entirely sure what point you were making, but... appealing to theologians from a few hundred years ago is not the way to my heart.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #217 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 15:22:21 »
It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
Jaime this is so true.
Quote
Acts 17:16-20~"Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean."
As far as these philosophers were concerned Paul's used jargon words only because they were ignorant of the truth, trusting in their own wisdom and what seemed right in their own eyes.  There are other examples of this in the scriptures~and after Paul explain it as simple as one could, they still mocked!
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Acts 17:32~"And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter."
Some believe~and these are the ones we are fishing for!
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Acts 17:34~"Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
It was not strange things to their ear...............jargon words, or words in the vernacular, bottom line, the Spirit of the Living God MUST open one's heart to see and believe the words of God.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 15:31:04 by RB »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #218 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:10:03 »
In place of grace (χάρις), the modern word charitable fits the basic meaning.
Charitable and grace have totally two different meanings. A person can liberally give ( for different reasons ) and not have an ounce of grace in their hearts toward their enemies, and especially so toward those they are at enmity with! I'm being summons for supper by my little bride, so I will come back to this or start another thread. Maybe someone else can take this to another thread because I really want to get back to the subject.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #218 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:10:03 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #219 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:11:13 »
The essence of Christianity is derived from translated text. To me that’s why going back to the original meaning is so essential. It iS kind of ludicrous to depend on a very narrow English version of typically much broader Greek or Hebrew passage or group of passages. Particularly in the NT the Greek is SO much more descriptive. For instance for three Greek words Agape, Philileo and eros, three very distint things yet we have exactly one word “love” that is translated for all three words.

I don’t know if I agree that we rely on “jargon words”, but we DO rely on a translation in a much less descriptive language. And the version of this language is 400 some years old appearing to be laden with Jargon words apparently to some.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 17:13:52 by Jaime »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #220 on: Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:49:09 »
Charitable and grace have totally two different meanings.
Whatever difference you think exists, should be immediately discarded and your definition corrected to this.  It's literally the same word.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #221 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 00:18:57 »
James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

DaveW, good point. I was just about ready to note the same verses. Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it. He was declared righteous by virtue of having the qualities/attributes of God (imputed righteousness)

From these verses it can be said that
1. Abraham was saved apart from the Levitical law because it did not exist yet.
2. Since the Levitical law did not exist at that time, Abraham was following something else.
3. That if you followed Abraham,you would be righteous as well.
4. Had the people of Israel followed Abraham, there would have been no need for the New Testament.



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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #222 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 01:33:56 »

I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.

Jarrod

Jarrod, I agree. Jesus was the "seed of Abraham". And when He came to His own, they did not know Him. They did not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or His word. To them, the word of God was the Levitical law, as Isaiah says "law upon law, precept upon precept, here a little there a little until they fell backward and were caught and ensnared." The Levitical law did contain some of God's Law. But,so much had been added to it over the years-"doctrines and traditions of men"- some of which were contrary to the Law of God thereby "making it of no effect." Jesus came to "raise up children unto Abraham" in the simple word of his God.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 01:43:47 by bel »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #223 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 06:41:27 »
I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.
Even Peter thought that some of Paul's preaching and teaching was hard to understand (2 Pet 3:16).  And Paul was hardly a 1st-century fisherman.

And with all due respect, I think that you have not managed to unjargonize anything with your definitions; rather you have simply introduced redefined jargon.  For example, there are not two different words for belief and faith; there is only one, that is πίστις [pistis]. It is in the English that there are two words.  And for the verb form in the Greek, πιστεύω [pisteuo], it means basically the same as the English word believe.  To distinction to believe something or to believe IN something is essentially the same in Greek as πιστεύω [pisteuo] and πιστεύω εν [pisteuo en] or πιστεύω εις [pisteuo eis].  Only occasionally is the preposition en or eis implied by the context.  It is in English that faith has been jargonized by some who erroneously think the meaning of the faith when used in a religious connotation is understood differently than the meaning of faith when used in an other than religious connotation.

I tend to agree with you on the word perfect, but I could take issue with your presentations of grace and justification

I do agree that so much of the discussions here and in the field of religion, generally, words are used too often in ways by the writer that is not accepted or understood in the same way by the reader. And so iwhen reading anyone's posting here, it is necessary to understand the way in which the writer is using such words to decide whether the writer is using them in the way in which the Bible intends them.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #224 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 07:11:24 »
James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
It seems clear here that you do not really understand what either James or Paul says or means when speaking of works in connection with justification.

Some of you might be familiar with Dr. Jordan Peterson; he is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, a public speaker, and a creator of Self Authoring.  If you haven't read or heard him, you should take the opportunity to do so.  He is very interesting, especially in some of his views on religion.  He says that he is often asked if he believes in God.  He says that he does not like the question and he usually goes on to say why he doesn't.  In a nutshell he says "How can anyone say they believe in God and then not do what He asks?"  I think that is very perceptive and I think that is the essence of how James uses works in his writing.  And that is somewhat different than Paul's typical context in his use of the word works.  A meaningful discussion of works as typically used by Paul and works as used by James requires more that a few words in a forum such as this.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #225 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 14:07:43 »
Even Peter thought that some of Paul's preaching and teaching was hard to understand (2 Pet 3:16).  And Paul was hardly a 1st-century fisherman.
I agree.  Perhaps that's why most of the heresies that the church has experienced since then were based on people following Paul and ignoring the rest of the Bible.

And with all due respect, I think that you have not managed to unjargonize anything with your definitions; rather you have simply introduced redefined jargon.  For example, there are not two different words for belief and faith; there is only one, that is πίστις [pistis].

That's why I listed it under just one heading.  ::lookaround::

It is in the English that there are two words.  And for the verb form in the Greek, πιστεύω [pisteuo], it means basically the same as the English word believe.  To distinction to believe something or to believe IN something is essentially the same in Greek as πιστεύω [pisteuo] and πιστεύω εν [pisteuo en] or πιστεύω εις [pisteuo eis].  Only occasionally is the preposition en or eis implied by the context.  It is in English that faith has been jargonized by some who erroneously think the meaning of the faith when used in a religious connotation is understood differently than the meaning of faith when used in an other than religious connotation.
I understand what you're saying, but I think there are differences you haven't touched on here.

Foremost, πίστις indicates a willingness to act.  The English word believe used to have this meaning, as well.  It no longer does.  It has come to mean mental assent, divorced from any action.

I could take issue with your presentations of grace and justification.


I do agree that so much of the discussions here and in the field of religion, generally, words are used too often in ways by the writer that is not accepted or understood in the same way by the reader. And so when reading anyone's posting here, it is necessary to understand the way in which the writer is using such words to decide whether the writer is using them in the way in which the Bible intends them.
Why does it fall upon the hearer to do all of the work?  Shouldn't the speaker also endeavor to communicate in a way that can be understood?  Professional journalists write to a 4th-grade reading level to make their writing accessible... can I get some of that love?

Jarrod

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #226 on: Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 15:46:37 »
Why does it fall upon the hearer to do all of the work?  Shouldn't the speaker also endeavor to communicate in a way that can be understood?  Professional journalists write to a 4th-grade reading level to make their writing accessible... can I get some of that love?

Jarrod
Most who post here, including me, are not very good at real communication in writing.  And unfortunately. most, including me, will probably not do what is necessary to become very good at real communication in writing.  In most of us probably wouldn't even be very good at communication in speaking.

And to make matters worse, the communication that does go on is too tightly bound up in our preconceived ideas involved about which we are attempting to communicate.

bel

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #227 on: Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 01:24:54 »
Quote from: 4WD on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 10:38:26
Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.
Quote

From bel: 4WD, you said the above. James 2:20 says otherwise. Abraham was justified(declared righteous) by his faith in God AND his obedience to God's word(works). They go hand in hand.

In answer to Jarrod's post, grace also means refinement of movement, decency, behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality.

" For by refinement of movement, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."
"For by behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
"For by having the attributes/ qualities of God, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.

Having the attributes of God, not that of ourselves.

I'll add impute to the list: impute: to ascribe righteousness, guilt etc. to someone by virtue of having similar qualities in another.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 02:25:56 by bel »

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #228 on: Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 04:00:37 »
Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it.
I made a post yesterday and hit a wrong button accidentally~and decided I had other things to do and put this on the back burner.  So, let me make another attempt of picking up on the subject under consideration~a very important subject that is tied into the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As one as brought up already, Peter said Paul wrote some things hard to understand in his epistles, which he did, and Peter was not speaking of Paul's highly symbolical writings concerning eschatology~for he wrote very little on this subject~hardly any at all, and that with no symbolical words. The book of Romans is Paul's doctrinal exposition if any of his writings can be termed doctrinal exposition, along with Galatians 3,4; Ephesians 1-3; both on a lesser scale.

Romans 3:20-11:36~Are some of the hardest scriptures in the writings of the apostles to rightly divide~espically so from Romans 3:20-5:21 with Romans 4:1-5:2 being the very hardest of them all! I'm speaking from almost fifty years of experience with me reading behind every writer I could find to see their thoughts on these difficult scriptures, for I KNEW the truth of the gospel is to be found herein for those who seek it with all of their hearts.

The subject of works versus faith and the sense in which Paul used the word FAITH is absolutely critical for one to truly come to the knowledge of the truth. I have found that great men are not always wise and correct, men so much greater than myself, that I would not be worthy to serve them and to carry their mantle. Yet, we cannot follow men, but must be servants of God and his word as much as lieth within God be our helper.

So with this in mind, my desire is to move forward with addressing Romans three verse 20 down through Romans 5:2.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 00:18:57
Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it.
The red highlights are mine for dissussion~RB.  Bel, that statement is diametrically opposed to the Spirit's testimony through the apostle Paul. This should concern you and anyone else that believes similar to your statement, if not word by word. Coming back to this.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 00:18:57
That if you followed Abraham, you would be righteous as well. Had the people of Israel followed Abraham, there would have been no need for the New Testament
We can give evidence we are righteous by living a life of faith without trusting in our works as a means of receiving God's promises. Only in that sense and in no other sense. Saints do not begin in the Spirit and end up trusting in their works as a means of inheriting eternal life~those who believe in that gospel have been bewitched by false prophets, evil workers, prophets of the concision generation.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:1-3~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Of course not, we were made legally perfect by God's grace through Christ's obedience and we prove this by totally trusting HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS/FAITH/OBEDIENCE as our surety before the God of all the earth. 

Romans 3:20 next.....RB
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 04:10:05 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #229 on: Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 14:04:10 »
In answer to Jarrod's post, grace also means refinement of movement, decency, behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality.

" For by refinement of movement, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."
"For by behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
"For by having the attributes/ qualities of God, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
Using an English dictionary to interpret the Bible usually fails.  We'll just call this Exhibit A...

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #230 on: Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 00:52:54 »

Saints do not begin in the Spirit and end up trusting in their works as a means of inheriting eternal life~those who believe in that gospel have been bewitched by false prophets, evil workers, prophets of the concision generation. Of course not, we were made legally perfect by God's grace through Christ's obedience and we prove this by totally trusting HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS/FAITH/OBEDIENCE as our surety before the God of all the earth. 

Romans 3:20 next.....RB

RB, I think you are misinterpreting Galatians 3:1-3. Paul is talking about the LEVITICAL law, not the Law of God. There is a difference. To the Jewish people the Levitical law WAS the word of God, as Isaiah says "to them the word of God was precept upon precept, law upon law, here a little there a little that they might fall backward and be broken and ensnared." However, it contained laws, doctrines and traditions OF MEN.
The True Law(word) of God was demonstrated in Jesus Christ, and is summed up in two commandments "Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and soul", and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Paul makes it clear that they are to OBEY the truth.





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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #231 on: Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 01:00:50 »
Using an English dictionary to interpret the Bible usually fails.  We'll just call this Exhibit A...

Jarrod, if you don't have the grace of God, as in goodwill towards men, being kind and gracious,loving, forgiving etc.etc. are you saved?

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #232 on: Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 05:21:22 »
RB, I think you are misinterpreting Galatians 3:1-3. Paul is talking about the LEVITICAL law, not the Law of God. There is a difference.
Bel, this section of God's word are those very scriptures that Peter thought was hard to understand~the reading is not hard or anywhere in the scriptures, as far as that goes~it IS the SENSE that is so hard to grasp a hold of, or to rightly divide them properly so as to cause people to understand the truth of the gospel.....a truly biblical sense that so far has eluded your understanding of the truth of the gospel.
Quote
Galatians 3:1-3~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The works of the law, can be summed up as "any and all works" that we have an active part in, be whatever....it becomes a WORK of some commandments, and BASED ON THIS.....Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9)....but PLEASE NOTE, Paul was speaking in this sense only: weak and unprofitable; carnal; rudiments of this world; as far as being means of INHERITING ETERNAL LIFE~that's the very purpose as to why Christ came, it is because of the WEAKNESS of SINFUL human flesh being unable to keep the commandment of God WITHOUT sinning and without corrupting them as many of Israel did, including the Levites who were the leaders in doing so.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #233 on: Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 23:56:31 »
Bel, this section of God's word are those very scriptures that Peter thought was hard to understand~the reading is not hard or anywhere in the scriptures, as far as that goes~it IS the SENSE that is so hard to grasp a hold of, or to rightly divide them properly so as to cause people to understand the truth of the gospel.....a truly biblical sense that so far has eluded your understanding of the truth of the gospel.

RB, The Levitical law contained commandments of men and that's why it was annulled. The commandments of God still apply. For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says "I know Him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him, But whoever keeps his word, truly the love of God is PERFECTED in him.

"But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in the mirror."

"For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:"You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another beware lest you be consumed by one another."

Again, when the rich man asked Jesus, " What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said, "If you want life, follow the commandments of God."

God's Law is eternal, it does not pass away.

Whether or not one believes in the Law of reciprocity, we are all subject to it. We either love one another as ourselves or we fall to destruction.

As far as life after we leave this earth goes, if you believe in " on earth as it is in heaven" then the same Law applies. However, I believe that the Bible was written for instruction to those living on earth as human beings. Do the same rules apply to those who are no longer human? Who knows. I suppose that is a topic for another thread. All I know is that God will be there.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 00:28:37 by bel »

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #234 on: Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 04:11:56 »
RB, The Levitical law contained commandments of men and that's why it was annulled. The commandments of God still apply. For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.
Bel/GB, Laws are LAWS....now, that being said, there were many, many laws that pertaineth only to Israel that were a type, or symbolical of them being a separate people from other nations mainly found in Leviticus, which lasted only until the time of reformation going from OT Moses' religion to the religion of the Son of God.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 3:1-5~"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."
I'm holding on fast to CHRIST, and refuse to turn back to Moses to seek my forgiveness from him!
Quote from: Paul a natural-born Jews
2nd Corinthians 3:5-15~"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."
As it is upon your heart, and will remain as long as you seek forgiveness through obeying Moses' law~which IS GLORIOUS, yet at the same time tells you THIS MOUNTAIN IS NO HIDING PLACE FOR SINNERS! We were born of the Spirit, and refuse to seek perfection by Moses' law~which again ARE spiritual, good, and holy, far ABOVE our strength, and power to obey them perfectly, even though our desires are to do so~THEREBY, we seek for forgiveness THROUGH Jesus Christ.

As I said above, many laws ( in Leviticus ) were given only to the nation of Israel as a type or symbol of their sepatation from other nation which ONLY lasted until the coming of Christ ~mainly their dress codes and dietary laws~which we see clearly from Acts 10 that this is so. No law was EVER given to give the sinners HOPE of eternal life by obeying them, NOT EVEN ONE~except to Adam, and we know that he failed to keep just one simple commandment, that should tell you something, if you would just consider it.  That being said, and I trust, clearly~I will say this so there will be no misunderstanding between us:  "God's commandments SUMMED UP in the Ten Commandments are the very ones our new man SERVES and DELIGHTS IN, yet doing so, we see our NEED of Christ more than ever, since we know SIN IS PRESENT in our most holy moments~in our prayers, witnessing, testifying of God's goodness, in correcting our children, you name it, SIN IS PRESENT to our own grief of spirit if one is honest and is not deceived by his own self-worth.  Well, I know what in your heart, BECAUSE I know my OWN SINFUL heart~sin dwells in all of us, just some of us can mortify sin and some do not have the power to do so.
Quote from: Bel Reply #233 on: Yesterday at 23:56:31
For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.
Bel/GB, I have given you the proper SENSE in which they are "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements"~and the sense in which they are not.

I want to move on to Romans 3:20....RB
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 04:18:15 by RB »

bel

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #235 on: Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 15:32:27 »
RB, the Levitical law was not given to the people of Israel. Abraham wasn't following it. That's what the writer's of the New Testament are trying to say. The Levitical law was not the Law of Abraham's God. It wasn't the word of Israel's God, and the people who followed it were not Abraham's children. Abraham's God did not demand animal sacrifices let alone human sacrifices. These are the demands of pagan gods. As explained in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. All their fathers were baptized into Moses. All ate the SAME spiritual food and drank the SAME spiritual drink. For all drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ. This means that they received the SAME spiritual teaching of God's word as that which Jesus taught. But some rejected it and went their own way.

As Isaiah says, these are the sacrifices which the one True God requires of us: Cease to do evil and learn to do good and your sins will become white as snow. Isaiah chapter 58 explains the fast that God wants from us. In THIS we are perfected.

The commandments of God are given for our own spiritual well-being and the spiritual well-being of others. "If you do well it will be well with you."

As an added note: I forgive and believe that I will be forgiven as Scripture says. Again, it is the Law of reciprocity.


Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #236 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:10:03 »
And that’s why you will always fail. If only I do this and that. If I’m good enough and follow all these rules and regulations. Then in my mind I am accepted and loved .   Never going to feel it.

Freedom is being with the one WHO IS LIFE . The life who HE IS removes the death in us . His life is released to us .....not because we have polished the silver. It’s by being with him in the spirit realm. Just love him , just adore him and bring your troubles before him. Share your life with him .  It’s that simple.

Think about all the encounter that are written in the Bible. It’s not just words. HE APPEARED with all his Glory .

The glory realm that many fell at the feet of angels. Who’s got faith now and how did that faith come?

Think about that for a minute.

We now read the Bible , and does God almighty,  the Lord Jesus Christ appear in his glory , in his fullness that passed before Moses . I could go on.    No no no

Our faith like there’s, comes  from him when he meet with us .transfered to us by spirit his spirit .The giver of life . I am the way the truth AND THE LIFE . His righteousness.   When we read his word or engage in prayer and worship.

His life is transferred into us as the bread from heaven. His righteousness clothes us again and again .

If we don’t eat of him daily we become stale . We feel dead , because we lack the LIFE force of him in us.

It’s this ....to love him with all your heart soul  strength and mind ......by now .....you can’t help to love your neighbour as yourself.If you have his life ?

If you don’t then repeat number 1 until you do.

So my righteousness comes from him and it then gets expressed to others in works of love . Christ in me 

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:30:00 by Bemark »

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #237 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:17:42 »
O but didn’t I do this and that IN YOUR NAME  ,  cast out demons . Was not my works enough Lord.

Depart from my presence BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW YOU




Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #238 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:35:40 »
Good people who do good works outside of Christ go to hell

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #239 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:47:55 »
How about this one....I just get thinking ....did pharaoh do the works of God? Did not God harden his heart,  so God could show himself almighty?

Did these works make him righteous before God? 

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #240 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 14:18:27 »
Bemark, you said," And that's why you will always fail. If  I only do this and that."

Do YOU love God with all your heart mind and soul, and do YOU love others as yourself, or did Jesus do these things for you because you are incapable of doing so? If the answer yes to the first two questions then you are righteous before God. And yes, loving your neighbor as yourself involves good works.
"A good man out of the treasure of his heart brings forth good things."

Back to my first to questions, are they not commandments of God and do you obey them? If yes then your are following a rule.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #241 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:45:55 »
Bel you are never going to be able to do that 100% of the time.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #242 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:52:14 »
So if I'm not following the rule 100% of the time then I'm breaking the rule when I don't. So if I'm breaking the rule like we all do . Then its Christs righteous act that has made me right before God  weather I'm obeying the rules or not. 100% all of the time in thought and action. Impossible.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #243 on: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:57:14 »
I am not righteous.  He has made me righteous  or right before God, in him, Christ Jesus.My righteous works will give me treasures in heaven. I can't worship him 24/7  and love
my neighbour's like my self 24/7. I can't do righteous works 24/7
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:59:49 by Bemark »

bel

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #244 on: Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 00:05:01 »
Good people who do good works outside of Christ go to hell

Bemark, According to Scripture, those who do not have the Law, but do what is required by the Law are righteous before God as well. This means that even though you haven't been taught the Law, but do good things out of the goodness of your heart, you are still considered righteous.

In response to the rest of your posts, according to Scripture, you'll need to "work out your salvation.", which means to work on yourself, your relationship with God and  your relationships with other people. "Hold every thought captive." Discipline your mind and don't let sin take root and rule over you. Don't dwell on things that are not good. No, we're not going to get it right 100% of the time because we are not God. But when we "fall off the horse", seek forgiveness, get back up and go forward. As it is said, " Love covers a lot of sins." Just be the best person you can be. That's what God is looking for.

 

     
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