Author Topic: Our Partisan Landscape  (Read 1086 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #35 on: Sat Apr 18, 2020 - 21:21:50 »

Texas Conservative

rofl  ::frustrated::  ::destroyingcomputer::

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #35 on: Sat Apr 18, 2020 - 21:21:50 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #36 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 01:21:53 »
Buff says the church is not essential, but the Bible teaches differently. The church is the bride of Christ. It is the "one body." It is the kingdom of God. It is the pillar and support of the truth. Buff is wrong. He may not preach about the church, but Jesus did, Paul did, Peter did.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 01:26:41 by johntwayne »

Offline GB

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #37 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 08:43:15 »
Buff says the church is not essential, but the Bible teaches differently. The church is the bride of Christ. It is the "one body." It is the kingdom of God. It is the pillar and support of the truth. Buff is wrong. He may not preach about the church, but Jesus did, Paul did, Peter did.

Matt. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #37 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 08:43:15 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 09:35:12 »
Matt. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In the Buff Reformer Version it is:

"For where one is behind a keyboard putting down a sign out front church, there I am in the midst of them."

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 09:35:12 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 20:54:47 »
JOHNTWAYHNE:

     Read and evaluate it again, my brother, give it another shot. Your "Church of Christ" is nowhere mentioned in the Greek scriptures. Nor is the "Church of God." Nor is the "Baptist Church." Churchism is sectarianism.   

    "Religious parties" is another adequate term to describe today's landscape.

Buff

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 20:54:47 »



Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #40 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 22:00:23 »

Texas Conservative:

    "In the Buff Reformer Version it is: 'For where one is behind a keyboard putting down a sign out front church, there I am in the midst of them.' "

    Again, give me something of substance I can latch onto. I'm acquainted with a lot of conservatives who "know how to say it"—and why.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #40 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 22:00:23 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #41 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 05:29:22 »
Buff, TC was very plain spoken in what he said. Maybe ‘tis the hearer!

And in my view JohnTWayne is NOT talking about a particular church name as you seem to understand it. I don’t in anyway think he is referring to the Church of Christ sect as we know it. He is speaking of Christ’s people or body. 

You have the intelligence to contribute on many topics, but frankly you are stuck on this schtick. Reformer unstick thyself.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 05:36:38 by Jaime »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #42 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 13:23:34 »
Buff, TC was very plain spoken in what he said. Maybe ‘tis the hearer!

And in my view JohnTWayne is NOT talking about a particular church name as you seem to understand it. I don’t in anyway think he is referring to the Church of Christ sect as we know it. He is speaking of Christ’s people or body. 

You have the intelligence to contribute on many topics, but frankly you are stuck on this schtick. Reformer unstick thyself.

Of course I am, but Buff is so blinded by his partisan reform movement that he can't see it.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:39:31 »

JohnTWayne:

    Your note to Jaime, "Of course I am, but Buff is so blinded by his partisan reform movement that he can't see it."

    Yes, I saw it, John [although Jaime must not have], because you carry the "symptoms" of it. As I noted above, "Your 'Church of Christ' is nowhere mentioned in the Greek scriptures."

    If I'm incorrect, quote the passage of Greek scripture and we'll take it from there. [Note, please, I said Greek scripture].

Buff

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:39:31 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #44 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:47:33 »
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

It's mentioned 115 times in the New Testament Buff. Quote above from Strong's.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:55:59 by johntwayne »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #45 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:54:32 »
JohnTWayne:

    You've gotta be kidding! Surely you should know by now in your walk with the Lord that the Greek ekklesia is never translated "church" by any reputable Greek scholar. Come on, brother, "tell it like it is."

Goodnight,

Buff

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #46 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 22:58:08 »
JohnTWayne:

    You've gotta be kidding! Surely you should know by now in your walk with the Lord that the Greek ekklesia is never translated "church" by any reputable Greek scholar. Come on, brother, "tell it like it is."

Goodnight,

Buff

The Greek schoolars who translated the KJV, NASV RSV, ASV, ESV and 99% of the reputable versions translated it church Buff. You know more than them?
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 23:12:26 by johntwayne »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #47 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 23:06:55 »

JohnTWayne:

    One more thought before retiring. If your KJV correctly translates the Greek ekklesia, Moses had a church in the wilderness [Acts 7:38].

    But wait a moment! As per your church theology, there was no church until the Lord founded it!

Sweet Dreams,

Buff

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #48 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 23:14:32 »
JohnTWayne:

    One more thought before retiring. If your KJV correctly translates the Greek ekklesia, Moses had a church in the wilderness [Acts 7:38].

    But wait a moment! As per your church theology, there was no church until the Lord founded it!

Sweet Dreams,

Buff

Read the reputable Greek scholar I quoted Buff and your pointless dribbling will be answered. Is it hard for you to kick against the goad?
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 23:22:04 by johntwayne »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #49 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 14:58:08 »
JohnTWayne:

    What follows are additional remarks and research pertaining to the Greek ekklesia, after which I will “close my shop” on this matter.

    I have in my computer files Tyndale’s translation of the new covenant scriptures, the first translation written in English, as I recall [1525-1526].

    On Acts 7:38, he translated the verse, “This is he that was in the congregation, in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers.”

https://alleluya.com/WTNT/acts_7.html

    On Matthew 16:18: “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
 
https://alleluya.com/WTNT/matthew_16.html

    On Romans 16:16: “Salute one another among yourselves with an holy kiss. The congregations of Christ salute you.”

https://alleluya.com/WTNT/romans_16.html

    On Acts 20:17: “From Mileton he sent to Ephesus, and called the seniors of the congregation. When they were come to him, he said to them...”
 
https://alleluya.com/WTNT/acts_20.html

    And I could go on and on. “Church” is a misnomer and a distortion of the Greek ekklesia. The term was never used by the early believers. It is tragic that we are so addicted to “church,” considering that in the Greek Jesus did not say in Matthew 16:18, “I will build my church.” Nor did Paul say in Romans 16:16, “The churches of Christ greet you.” Yet we seem to be bent on fostering King James’ blunders. Instead of trying to recapture the vocabulary of the Holy Spirit, we insist on promoting the mistakes of a bungling king.

    Among King James’ instructions to his translators, Number 3 says, “The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c.”

http://kjv.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/kjv-instructions.html See also http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvhist.html

    Here are the facts about the so-called inerrancy of the KJV. The translators were not infallible. At King James’ command, they deliberately mistranslated certain Greek terms. “Old ecclesiastical words” not only included “church,” but “Easter,” “Bishop,” and other “churchy” terms. King James was King and Head of The Established Church of England. It is safe to say he did not want to be Head of a mere congregation! But let’s go back a century.
 
     A century before the KJV was ushered in, William Tyndale translated the New Testament scriptures from the oldest Greek manuscripts available to him at the time. I have in my files the complete translation. I have checked through much of his rendition, and wherever the Greek ekklesia appears, he translates it “congregation.”
 
    The first time “church” appears in our contemporary English translations is in Matthew 16:18. Tyndale’s translation reads, “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
 
   AS noted above, Romans 16:16 reads, “Salute one another among yourselves with an holy kiss. The congregations of Christ salute you.” As far as I am able to ascertain, “church” does not appear anywhere in his translation.

    The bottom line is that King James and those translations that followed him mistranslated many biblical terms, particularly “church.” Too, “Easter” in the KJV should have been “Passover.” So far as inaccurate and distorted translations are concerned, the KJV is at the top of my list.

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 19:25:50 by Reformer »

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #50 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 17:01:58 »
JohnTWayne:

    What follows are additional remarks and research pertaining to the Greek ekklesia, after which I will “close my shop” on this matter.

    I have in my computer files Tyndale’s translation of the new covenant scriptures, the first translation written in English, as I recall [1525-1526].

    On Acts 7:38, he translated the verse, “This is he that was in the congregation, in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers.” [https://alleluya.com/WTNT/acts_7.html]

    On Matthew 16:18: “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [https://alleluya.com/WTNT/matthew_16.html]

    On Romans 16:16: “Salute one another among yourselves with an holy kiss. The congregations of Christ salute you.” [https://alleluya.com/WTNT/romans_16.html]

    On Acts 20:17: “From Mileton he sent to Ephesus, and called the seniors of the congregation. When they were come to him, he said to them...” [https://alleluya.com/WTNT/acts_20.html]

    And I could go on and on. “Church” is a misnomer and a distortion of the Greek ekklesia. The term was never used by the early believers. It is tragic that we are so addicted to “church,” considering that in the Greek Jesus did not say in Matthew 16:18, “I will build my church.” Nor did Paul say in Romans 16:16, “The churches of Christ greet you.” Yet we seem to be bent on fostering King James’ blunders. Instead of trying to recapture the vocabulary of the Holy Spirit, we insist on promoting the mistakes of a bungling king.

    Among King James’ instructions to his translators, Number 3 says, “The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c.” [http://kjv.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/kjv-instructions.html] See also [http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvhist.html]

    Here are the facts about the so-called inerrancy of the KJV. The translators were not infallible. At King James’ command, they deliberately mistranslated certain Greek terms. “Old ecclesiastical words” not only included “church,” but “Easter,” “Bishop,” and other “churchy” terms. King James was King and Head of The Established Church of England. It is safe to say he did not want to be Head of a mere congregation! But let’s go back a century.
 
     A century before the KJV was ushered in, William Tyndale translated the New Testament scriptures from the oldest Greek manuscripts available to him at the time. I have in my files the complete translation. I have checked through much of his rendition, and wherever the Greek ekklesia appears, he translates it “congregation.”
 
    The first time “church” appears in our contemporary English translations is in Matthew 16:18. Tyndale’s translation reads, “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
 
   AS noted above, Romans 16:16 reads, “Salute one another among yourselves with an holy kiss. The congregations of Christ salute you.” As far as I am able to ascertain, “church” does not appear anywhere in his translation.

    The bottom line is that King James and those translations that followed him mistranslated many biblical terms, particularly “church.” Too, “Easter” in the KJV should have been “Passover”. So far as inaccurate and distorted translations are concerned, the KJV is at the top of my list.

Buff


You are going off on congregation vs church.  They literally mean the same thing.

 rofl rofl

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #51 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 19:54:44 »

Texas Conservative:

    "You are going off on congregation vs church. They literally mean the same thing."

    Take the matter up with King James. He, too, was a "conservative!" Yet he disagrees with you. He literally forced "church" into his translation.

    "The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, as the word church, not to be translated congregation."

    In his era, "church" was an "ecclesiastical" term, not a term used by the Holy Spirit.

    Many sections of the KJV advance disunity, not concord. We can "beat around that bush until the cows come home," but the facts will still remain—simply, we have gone overboard with mad church disease and fostered division.

So long,

Buff

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #52 on: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 08:51:56 »
Church is a perfectly good translation as almost all versions attest to Buff.

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #53 on: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 21:54:18 »
JOHNTWAYNE:
 
    Initially, I decided not to reply to any more of your responses on this issue, as we have pretty well covered the whole matter. But I don’t want to “set you free” yet because of your last statement, which reads, “Church is a perfectly good translation, as almost all versions attest to, Buff.”
 
    As you are aware of King James’ third directive to his translators, which I have shared already, but I will share it once more followed by a few comments.
 
    KING JAMES“The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, as the word church, not to be translated congregation.”
 
    JOHN WAYNE“Church is a perfectly good translation, as almost all versions attest to.”
 
    The difference between you and King James is that the King knew “church” was not a translation of the Greek “ekklesia.” John Wayne takes issue with the King and tells him in so many words, “You are wrong! Ekklesia translates “church.”
 
    As to your “almost all versions” attesting to the King’s translation, I would remind you that if King James had not ordered his translators to translate the Greek ekklesia “church,” and they instead had rendered the Greek ekklesia correctly, all of the Versions you allude to that followed after King James’ translation would not have, in all probability, used “church.”
 
    Tyndale authored his translation 100 years prior to the KJV. He rendered the Greek “ekklesia” correctly. Alexander Campbell’s translation of the new covenant scriptures rendered “ekklesia” congregation or assembly. Campbell knew his Greek well. And because he, Campbell, did not translate “ekklesia” church, his translation failed to become popular. He himself recognized this and wrote about it in his publications.
 
    Because of King James’ “holier than thou” blunder, he became guilty of divisiveness among the community of the saints. I accuse him of being among the leading authors of “mad church disease” and most of the disunity that has pursued his mistranslated Version.

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 22:26:15 by Reformer »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #54 on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 02:09:22 »
The translators of NASV, RSV, ESV, ASV and most other English translations were not led by King James, but by the realization that church is a perfectly good translation Buff.

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Re: Our Partisan Landscape
« Reply #55 on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 22:52:52 »
A note to John T. Wayne and others

    Just a brief word to say that soon I will be formatting a new—special—post under the heading, “History is Crying Out to be Heard.” I encourage my brothers and sisters on GraceCentered to review it, especially those whom I consider to be “churchly-addicted.” Please be aware that I harbor no ill-will by the usage of that term.

     In announcing this in advance, some of you may decide to avoid it. That’s okay. No hurt and no problem on my end of the podium. Others of you who read it will possibly take issue with it. That, too, is okay. We can all learn from each other since we are blood brothers and sisters of the Lamb.

See you later,

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 23:05:51 by Reformer »