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Offline Reformer

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Our Struggles With Sin
« on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:01:39 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
____________________

Our Struggles With Sin

“Everyone of us has a chapter in our lives we would prefer not to read aloud.”—Selected.

    In truth, most of us have more than one chapter. When I first read that statement, I was vividly reminded of my own struggles with sin. Even the apostle Paul battled with sin. Not only Paul, but all of God’s great leaders of past generations clashed with sin. Humanity bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. All of us are plagued with it.

    Paul’s description of his struggle with sin is strikingly interesting—and uplifting. His written testimony is recorded in Romans 7:13-25. He contrasts the old Law with Life in the Spirit. Sin was so rampant in Paul’s life, even though he was a rigid Pharisee who obeyed the old Law as he understood it, he was driven to proclaim, “I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.” 

    Strange a psychological fact that it is, it is nevertheless true that to the carnal nature what is forbidden seems especially desirable. Paul seems to be saying that when he wanted to do good, sin was knocking at his door. Or as Paul himself explained it, “For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.”  The apostle explains that if he does what he does not want to do, “it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.”  His inner being or spirit wanted to do what was right, but sin often reigned.

    Consequently, the renowned apostle cried out, “Oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death” [sin]? He answered his own question. “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

    Our Lord Jesus was Paul’s rescuer! By himself, he was powerless. But when Jesus entered his life, he discovered that Grace was far greater than his fleshly weaknesses. And so it is with us. We are weak in the flesh, for we are part of Adam’s Fall. But when our Lord made His entrance into our lives, we discovered a Grace so mighty that our carnal susceptibilities lost their potential to conquer us.

    Let it be understood that our fleshly weaknesses have not been eradicated. You have yours, I have mine. But as redeemed sinners, we can say with Paul, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set us free.”
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:05:07 by Reformer »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 02:36:18 »
 ::amen!::

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 08:02:18 »
I agree with nearly all of that; however, I do take issue with a couple of phrases which suggest the false doctrine of Original Sin. 

Quote from: Reformer
Humanity bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. All of us are plagued with it.
Sin is not bequeathed from anyone.  Sin is strictly generated from within each of us. Every one of our sins is our sin and our sin alone; it comes from no one else.

Quote from: Reformer
....for we are part of Adam’s Fall
I am not sure what you mean by that; but it reeks of Original Sin. We are none of Adam's Fall or anyone else's. It is our Fall. We are strictly and completely alone in our own fall. Your reference to Romans 7 describes that specifically.  Paul, in his discussion of his struggles with sin noted that  "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died" (vs. 9).

A typical interpretation of that verse speaks about the giving of the law to Moses or some such.  That is incorrect.  We have to ask when was Paul alive apart from the law.  Paul there must be speaking about being spiritually alive.  Clearly that was before he was old enough to know and understand law and the consequences of disobeying the law.  He spells that our in verse 7 where he says "I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.' " The only way that could happen was if he was old enough to know and understand the law.  That is a direct refutation of the concept of Original Sin. He says "sin came alive and I died" Throughout this passage, Paul anthropomorphizes sin. He does that here again in verse 9.  He sinned and he died, that is, he died spiritually.

Our struggles with sin is our struggle and no one else's.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:20:27 »
4WD:

"Our struggles with sin is our struggle and no one else's." - Reply #2.

   That is correct, but if it had not been because of Adam's sin & Fall you and I would still be enjoying a perfect, sinless paradise or "Garden of Eden." Adam's Fall, or sin, contaminated the entire world's population which followed. The "second Adam," Jesus, gave us a way out.

     "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death" [and sin] "spread to all men because all sinned..." [Rom. 5:12].

    "For as by a man came death" [because of sin], "by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam" [or because of Adam's sin] "all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" [I Cor. 15:20-22].

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:28:37 by Reformer »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:20:27 »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:50:31 »
4WD:

"Our struggles with sin is our struggle and no one else's." - Reply #2.

   That is correct, but if it had not been because of Adam's sin & Fall you and I would still be enjoying a perfect, sinless paradise or "Garden of Eden." Adam's Fall, or sin, contaminated the entire world's population which followed. The "second Adam," Jesus, gave us a way out.

     "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death" [and sin] "spread to all men because all sinned..." [Rom. 5:12].

    "For as by a man came death" [because of sin], "by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam" [or because of Adam's sin] "all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" [I Cor. 15:20-22].

Buff

@Rella insists it was Eve.  She wants everyone to know what a woman was responsible for setting this all in motion.   rofl

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:50:31 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 13:57:28 »
Texas Ranger & Rella

 ::announcment::  ::clappingoverhead::  ::playingguitar::  ::tippinghat::

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Offline DaveW

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #6 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 14:13:54 »
That is correct, but if it had not been because of Adam's sin & Fall you and I would still be enjoying a perfect, sinless paradise or "Garden of Eden." Adam's Fall, or sin, contaminated the entire world's population which followed.
The Holiness background I grew up with insisted that we would not be here had the fall not happened. 
Sex (and procreation) was a product of the fall. 
Even though the command to be fruitful and multiply came in Genesis chapter 1.

they pictured Adam and Eve with a big ball of yellow light that extended from the shoulders down to the knees and hid everything in between.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 14:54:41 »
DaveW:

    I hear you, brother. Yet God told them to "be fruitful and multiply" even before they sinned and fell. So, apparently, they were able to be sexually intimate and bring children into the world. If they could enjoy all God had given them, and they did, it is reasonable to conclude they also enjoyed being sexually intimate.

Thanks for your comments,

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 15:18:09 »
4WD:

"Our struggles with sin is our struggle and no one else's." - Reply #2.

   That is correct, but if it had not been because of Adam's sin & Fall you and I would still be enjoying a perfect, sinless paradise or "Garden of Eden." Adam's Fall, or sin, contaminated the entire world's population which followed. The "second Adam," Jesus, gave us a way out. Your fall didn't come because of Adam's sin; your fall was because of YOUR sin. Moreover, do you really believe that God would condemn the whole world to hell because one man, Adam, sinned?  Where is the justice in that?
How can you possibly believe that?  You really believe that you are stronger than was Adam to obey even the simplest command to not eat of the fruit of a specific tree while given free reign to eat the fruit of every other tree? I don't think so.  I know that I am certainly as weak as, or even weaker than, Adam.
Quote
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death" [and sin] "spread to all men because all sinned..." [Rom. 5:12].

    "For as by a man came death" [because of sin], "by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam" [or because of Adam's sin] "all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" [I Cor. 15:20-22].
No, not because of sin; rather simply because of being human.  That is true for physical death and for the resurrection.  Both are the result of being human. Remember it was necessary that Jesus come as a human being in order that His blood was the sacrifice for out sin.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 15:18:09 »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jun 22, 2022 - 15:44:33 »
The Holiness background I grew up with insisted that we would not be here had the fall not happened. 
Sex (and procreation) was a product of the fall. 
Even though the command to be fruitful and multiply came in Genesis chapter 1.

they pictured Adam and Eve with a big ball of yellow light that extended from the shoulders down to the knees and hid everything in between.
Now that is really funny.  Are there people who really believe such nonsense?

For What it is worth, for all the words, books, etc. talking about "The Fall", I find it interesting that there is not a single passage in the Bible that speaks of "The Fall" in application to the sin of Adam or anyone else.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 01:06:46 »
4WD:

    Your Reply #8 is simply a rehash of what has already been said. It seems we basically agree but are twisting our thoughts and devising confusion.  ::tippinghat::

Buff

Offline DaveW

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 06:37:20 »
Now that is really funny.  Are there people who really believe such nonsense?
It was what I was taught in Sunday School in a Church of the Nazarene in the early 1960s.  The SS lessons had drawings of them and everything.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 07:18:38 »
4WD:

    Your Reply #8 is simply a rehash of what has already been said. It seems we basically agree but are twisting our thoughts and devising confusion.  ::tippinghat::

Buff
It appears to me that you believe in some, perhaps much, of the teaching of Original Sin. In that we most definitely do not "basically agree".  Physical death does not result from sin; spiritual death is due to sin. 

Romans 5:12 is speaking of spiritual death due to sin; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 is speaking of physical death. And Adam's sin did not contaminate anyone or anything except himself.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 07:20:45 by 4WD »

Offline Rella

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 07:30:59 »
@Rella insists it was Eve.  She wants everyone to know what a woman was responsible for setting this all in motion.   rofl

Actually TC is correct.  God should never have made woman using any part of a man  ::tippinghat::

But one slight correction....

4WD is correct
Quote
Sin is not bequeathed from anyone.  Sin is strictly generated from within each of us. Every one of our sins is our sin and our sin alone; it comes from no one else.

Since the angels were seemingly made by God as equal....

And since Satan and 1/3 of those rebelled ( sinned) against God, and what He did for them....

This is seeming proof that our sin nature is not from any other then within ourselves... no matter how the bible would have one think.

Quote
Quote from: Reformer
Humanity bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. All of us are plagued with it.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 12:43:47 »
4WD:

As I vividly recall, I have never in my life written a word on your "Original Sin." Try another topic.

The "Original" Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 12:53:46 »
This is seeming proof that our sin nature is not from any other then within ourselves... no matter how the bible would have one think.
I hate the phrase sin nature.  That isn't what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that we have an animal nature - that is, we have have desires and impulses to sate our need for food, drink, sex, etc, just as other animals do.  Those desire are not sinful in and of themselves.  Food and drink and sex and pleasure are all good things, when used in the right time and place.

However, these desires give rise to temptation, because we also want them when it isn't the right time and place.  When we desire our neighbors food and drink, or wife or husband, then there is temptation.  Even that still is not sin. 

It is only when we allow ourselves to imagine taking what is not ours that we cross the line into sin.  The imagination of man is desperately wicked, all the time, says the Bible.

Jarrod

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 12:57:05 »
Jarrod:

Your Reply #15 is real good - even genuine!

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 15:51:46 »
4WD:

As I vividly recall, I have never in my life written a word on your "Original Sin." Try another topic.

The "Original" Reformer
I didn't claim that you have ever written a word on original sin. What you claim to believe, however, reeks of it. If you believe that physical death is due to sin, and if you believe that babies die, then either you believe that babies can sin or that the sin of Adam has been imputed to them, which is precisely what Original Sin proclaims. There is no third choice.  And if you believe that babies can sin, then you simply do not understand the meaning of sin. Sin is disobedience to God's law. Babies cannot disobey what they can neither know nor understand

Moreover, if you believe that Adam's sin did anything more than cause his own spiritual death, then that is another element of Original Sin.

Thus, even if you have never written the words "Original Sin" or spoke to them directly, nevertheless you espouse the very consequences attributable to the doctrine of Original Sin.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 18:38:46 »
4WD:

    On your Reply #17, I pronounce you wrong and mistaken again. Try to cease assuming in some departments, my brother.

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 20:07:27 »
Pronounce me wrong?  What a joke. You are sounding a little like the democrats J6 committee hearing. If you disagree, then make your case. If sin is the reason for physical death, then why do babies die?  I will be watching for your answer.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 22:33:49 »
4WD:

One more time. Reply #3:

    "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death" [and sin] "spread to all men because all sinned..." [Rom. 5:12].

    "For as by a man came death" [because of sin], "by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam" [or because of Adam's sin] "all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" [I Cor. 15:20-22].


Have a good sleep,

Buff

 
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 13:34:26 by Reformer »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 05:04:41 »
Why am I not too surprised that you would stoop to inserting words into scripture to support your erroneous view? And even then, you didn't answer the question. I am a little disappointed in you. I think your bending to the doctrine of Original Sin is as egregious as others adherence to the premillennial view of the last days which you are writing about now because it distorts the gospel message at its base.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 07:29:35 »
Buff cannot pronounce judgement.  On this board, I am the "Chief Justice."   ::preachit::

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 13:56:45 »
4WD:

    "Why am I not too surprised that you would stoop to inserting words into scripture to support your erroneous view?"

     "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." [Rom. 5:12].

    "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" [I Cor. 15:20-22].

    Now what did you say your question was? Tell me soon, because it is near my beauty nap time. After which, you can take yours. But put a little efforts into taking a non-contentious nap, if I might offer that suggestion.

"Bless those who are contentious," or something like that [John 36:72 - or there abouts!]

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 22:16:19 by Reformer »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 14:11:41 »
Chief Justice:

"Buff cannot pronounce judgement. On this board, I am the 'Chief Justice.' "

::destroyingcomputer::  ::frustrated::  ::doh::

   And speaking of Justices, praise God Roe vs Wade has now been overturned and the States given the right to devise their own laws on this issue through their Representatives. Our God is still in control, and always will be.

    Murdering an innocent person, whether born or unborn, has always been a crime—initiated by the God of Creation.

AMEN!

Buff [who should have been elected a Justice]

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 15:50:42 »
Murdering an innocent person, whether born or unborn, has always been a crime—initiated by the God of Creation.
Interesting comment.  If death is due to sin, how is it possible to murder an innocent person? Oh of course, the imputed sin of Adam, i.e., Original Sin.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 18:35:40 »
If death is due to sin, how is it possible to murder an innocent person?
When there's a sin, someone pays the price.  But it isn't always the guilty party.

Often, they hurt the people around them, instead.

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jun 24, 2022 - 22:20:58 »
4WD:

"For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead." [I Cor. 15:20-22].

Get ample sleep,

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 03:55:28 »


“Everyone of us has a chapter in our lives we would prefer not to read aloud.”—Selected.

    In truth, most of us have more than one chapter. When I first read that statement, I was vividly reminded of my own struggles with sin. Even the apostle Paul battled with sin. Not only Paul, but all of God’s great leaders of past generations clashed with sin. Humanity bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. All of us are plagued with it.
I think your whole statement is well stated.
Quote from: Reformer on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:01:39
Paul’s description of his struggle with sin is strikingly interesting—and uplifting. His written testimony is recorded in Romans 7:13-25. He contrasts the old Law with Life in the Spirit.
Not sure that is exactly accurate and according to the scriptures in Romans 7. I believe Paul was explaining the experience of every child of God who has come to an understanding and purpose of the law of God~it was given not to give life, or reward life to the sinner, but was given to help him to see his need of Christ and for him to trust only in Jesus Christ to deliver him from God's holy, good and spiritual law, which is above all of us to do in the power of our own flesh~but this can only be seen when the word comes to our spirit in true light in which God purposes us to understand it.

Apart from this revelation to our spirits, we all would naturally think we are not that bad, and God will accept us based on what we think of ourselves!
Quote from: Reformer on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:01:39
Strange a psychological fact that it is, it is nevertheless true that to the carnal nature what is forbidden seems especially desirable. Paul seems to be saying that when he wanted to do good, sin was knocking at his door.
Reformer, it is much worse~sin is not knocking at our doors, but our carnal flesh is nothing but sin~ALL SINS live in our flesh, the old man that we all have until we leave this world.
Quote
Romans 7:18a~"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:"
Every sin lives in our sinful flesh, it just needs the opportunity to fulfill its lust, apart from the grace of God protecting us and restraining the evil that is in us by His Spirit.  Enough for now on this point.
Quote from: Reformer on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:01:39
His inner being or spirit wanted to do what was right, but sin often reigned.
I must respectable disagree. Sin never reign in Paul's flesh, but it was EVER PRESENT keeping him from perfectly doing the will of God, which he desired to do. Only ONE PERSON perfectly did the will of God in thoughts, word, and deed~JESUS CHRIST who is the propitiation for our sins before God's holy law.
Quote
Romans 7:24-25a~"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ........."
Quote from: Reformer on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 12:01:39
Our Lord Jesus was Paul’s rescuer! By himself, he was powerless. But when Jesus entered his life, he discovered that Grace was far greater than his fleshly weaknesses. And so it is with us. We are weak in the flesh, for we are part of Adam’s Fall. But when our Lord made His entrance into our lives, we discovered a Grace so mighty that our carnal susceptibilities lost their potential to conquer us.
Agree with most of this statement~will only add this: Sin has not lost its deceitfulness to conquer us, yet, we are more than conquers through Christ AS LONG AS WE live in the Spirit and do not follow the desires of our flesh. As you said correctly said, sin is never eradicated, as long as we are breathing. May God give all of us grace and the desire to live for him in thoughts, words, and deeds,
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 04:50:52 by RB »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 07:09:44 »
When there's a sin, someone pays the price.  But it isn't always the guilty party.

Often, they hurt the people around them, instead.
Obviously true, but that is not what Paul meant when he said,  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 5:23). Nor is that the intent of Paul's message in Romans 5:12. Physical death of a person is not due to the sin of that person. Nor is physical death of any person due to the sin of Adam.  Physical death of any living thing is the natural part of God's creation. Physical death of the human being is the natural part of God's creation.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 07:34:14 by 4WD »

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 07:26:20 »
4WD:

"For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead." [I Cor. 15:20-22].

Get ample sleep,

Buff

Nothing there about sin being the cause of that death.  I realize that there are many who would proclaim that Adam died physically because he sinned.  That is simply wrong.  He died because he no longer had access to the fruit of the tree which could stave off physical death (Gen 4:22).  So observe there that even in the Garden, before he sinned, the Tree of Life was put there by God to keep Adam from dying physically. But when he sinned, God sent him out of the Garden so that he could not have access to the fruit of the Tree of Life.  It is the death of the spirit, not the death of the body, that is due to sin.  The wages of sin is the death of the spirit.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 13:58:08 »
RB:

   On your Reply #28, we are in agreement with a big portion of it, and that is good. Our views here do not collide all that distance. We are at least sharing.

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 14:08:58 »
4WD:

    "It is the death of the spirit, not the death of the body, that is due to sin. The wages of sin is the death of the spirit."

    "Death of the spirit"...hmmm, a new one to me. Aren't you doing some adding, as you accused me of doing earlier? If Adam had not sinned, we could still be playing games with him in the backyards of our Paradise or Garden of Eden! True, his spirit, his real self, was damaged, as ours is when we rebel again God. But death? Hmmm.

Buff

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 15:47:04 »
4WD:

    "It is the death of the spirit, not the death of the body, that is due to sin. The wages of sin is the death of the spirit."

    "Death of the spirit"...hmmm, a new one to me. Aren't you doing some adding, as you accused me of doing earlier? If Adam had not sinned, we could still be playing games with him in the backyards of our Paradise or Garden of Eden! True, his spirit, his real self, was damaged, as ours is when we rebel again God. But death? Hmmm.

Buff
Reformer, 4WD is correct, but he is half right.

The wages of sin is death, both our spirits and our physical body, the body of sin AND DEATH.

Offline Amo

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Re: Our Struggles With Sin
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 16:21:17 »

Quote
For What it is worth, for all the words, books, etc. talking about "The Fall", I find it interesting that there is not a single passage in the Bible that speaks of "The Fall" in application to the sin of Adam or anyone else.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

What else would you call children of the fallen one? Besides the fallen, of course.