Author Topic: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body  (Read 446 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« on: Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 13:26:26 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future
Celestial Body

     The transfiguration of our Lord, Moses, and Elijah was surely supernatural and  as real as real can be. I can confidently say the episode was not a vision, not a nightmare, not a movie scene, and not figurative.”

   However, inasmuch as the 9th verse of Matthew, chapter 17 [KJV & ESV] speaks of a “vision,” I need to clarify my statement above. “Tell no one the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead, Jesus told the three men who were with Him.” The NIV does not carry “vision,” and reads, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen.”

    When Jesus called the incident a “vision,” it is unlikely He was referring to the kind of vision portrayed in many scriptures. My hunch is that He used a term similar to “gazed at, a spectacle”  or “that which is seen, spectacle” [Strong & Thayer]. The Greek term is horama. A vision, then, is not something “gazed at.” Peter, James, and John “gazed at” what was occurring.

    Ananias had a vision [Acts 9:10]. Peter had a vision [Acts 10:17]. In neither vision was there an audience. I’ve checked both the Old and New scriptures on “visions,” and at no time was there another person or persons gazing at the visions! They were private and personal. But the “vision” on the Mount was seen by three men! The “vision” was not private and personal.

    The scene of transfiguration involved three personages. Jesus was actually there on the scene but transfigured to a different form. If He was actually there, so were Moses and Elijah. As noted, the New International Version puts it, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seem until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” This seems to capture the actual remark Jesus made. “Vision” is not used. This coincides with Mark’s account. “...He charged them to tell no one what they has seen” [Mark 9:9, English Standard Version]. Again, “vision” is not employed.

    Luke notes that the three men “...kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen” [Lk. 9:36, English Standard Version]. “Vision” was excluded from Luke’s account. So here again the account seems to entail an occurrence “gazed at” by others.

    But even if the whole episode was a “vision,” as the term is usually understood, which is highly unlikely, it at least teaches that Moses and Elijah were and are still alive—not in the flesh, but yet alive out of their fleshly bodies. On this occasion, they appeared in heavenly forms, just as Jesus did. And Jesus was actually alive.

    A “vision” is usually associated with sleep. Peter, James, and John fell asleep before the vision, as per Luke’s account, but they were fully awake during the transfiguration. No one was asleep when it happened. The three men were wide awake and saw what they saw.

    Also, the terms “transfigured”  or “transformed” do not usually translate into someone having a vision. In other words, “vision” here is not to be understood as a dream, a fantasy, or a nightmare. it was a supernatural appearance of three personages.

    Further, the transfiguration was intended to show the final abolition of the whole ceremonial Law. The “event” actually occurred! It was not figurative but real. Yes, Moses’ body was in the grave, not on the Mount of Transfiguration. But his spirit, the real Moses, was there on the Mount.

    Even if James 2:26 and a few other passages are correctly translated “breath” [“body without the spirit is dead,” for example],  there are many other passages whose contents and contexts define “spirit” as the crux of a man.

    “Spirit” and “soul” are often used interchangeably. I have checked and re-checked each Hebrew and Greek term relating to “spirit,” and I am convinced the scriptures teach that man’s nucleus—essence/center—is his spirit. Plus, as noted above, we always have the contents and context wherein the term is used—spirit, wind, or breath. That, in itself, should help define which term is meant.

    Note the following. “...yielded up His spirit [Matt. 27:50]; “Father, into your hands I command my spirit” [Luke 23:46]; “...and He bowed His head and gave up His spirit” [John 19:30]; “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” [Steven, Acts 7:59]. “Spirit” in these passages entail the essential character or principle element that drives a man to act or prompts him to produce and achieve. It does not seem logical to conclude that our God is engaged in preserving a man’s breath.

    When God allowed a medium to “bring up” Samuel at the insistence of King Saul, Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” [I Sam. 28:8-19]. Disturbed him from what? From his peace and serenity. It seems Samuel’s spirit, the real Samuel, was in a place of paradise or ecstasy before he was brought up—a tranquil and delightful heavenly domain, wherever that might have been located in God’s eternal province.

    Samuel told Saul, “...you and your sons shall me with me tomorrow” [in physical death]. Saul and his sons were killed in battle the next day. Saul and his sons died a biological death. Samuel died a biological death—“be with me” in death, the Prophet told Saul. Even though God had withdrawn His blessings from Saul and had become his enemy, He used a Medium to “bring up” Samuel to inform Saul of his earthly departure.
 
    Samuel was/is still alive after physical death! The repentant criminal is still alive following his demise on the cross. So is Stephen, the first recorded martyr. Where? Somewhere in God’s celestial expanse.

    If you recall, Paul was caught up to paradise, a part of God’s glorious region [II Cor. 12:2-3]. He noted that he did not know “whether in the body or out of the body.” If “out of the body,” such would mean the actual Paul—his spirit—was caught up. But even if Paul’s spirit was not caught up to view that heavenly scene, but instead his physical self, he at least implied a man’s spirit lives on following his physical departure.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 16, 2021 - 21:03:33 by Reformer »

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Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« on: Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 13:26:26 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 22:14:06 »
    When Jesus called the incident a “vision,” it is unlikely He was referring to the kind of vision portrayed in many scriptures. My hunch is that He used a term similar to “gazed at, a spectacle”  or “that which is seen, spectacle” [Strong & Thayer]. The Greek term is horama. A vision, then, is not something “gazed at.” Peter, James, and John “gazed at” what was occurring.
No need to rely on hunches.  Click here and scroll down and you can see every place in the Bible where the Greek word occurs...

Sure looks to me like it's the sort of vision God grants supernaturally.

Jarrod

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 22:43:03 »
Jarrod:

    "Sure looks to me like it's the sort of vision God grants supernaturally."

    Yes, of course, the scene was supernatural, yet an actual occurrence. Jesus, Moses, and Elijah were all seen alive. They were not phantoms.

Thanks,

Buff

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 22:43:03 »

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 04:27:19 »
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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 06:31:09 »
1 Cor 15  NASB 95

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
...
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 06:31:09 »



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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 08:14:53 »
With respect to Buff's OP, I would ask whether you know for certain, that the "body" between death and the resurrection is the same as the "body" after the resurrection?  Some, perhaps many, do not think that is so.

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 08:14:53 »

Online DaveW

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 08:31:30 »
With respect to Buff's OP, I would ask whether you know for certain, that the "body" between death and the resurrection is the same as the "body" after the resurrection?  Some, perhaps many, do not think that is so.
Which is why I suggested reading Dr Derek Prince's section on The Foundation Series on Resurrection of the Dead.  He makes a very good case for why it IS the same.

I know he is recorded teaching that whole series on Youtube.  I have not seen that segment to know if he goes into the same detail he does in the book.

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 08:35:52 »
Which is why I suggested reading Dr Derek Prince's section on The Foundation Series on Resurrection of the Dead.  He makes a very good case for why it IS the same.
I have read very good cases for both views.

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 10:47:42 »
There is no “body” for the saints BETWEEN their physical death and the resurrection of their body.  We get an incorruptible body at a point AFTER our physical death (in a later resurrection) but we do not get a body in heaven AT our physical death. 

And it’s a mistake to refer to “Our future *CELESTIAL* BODY”.  That term refers to the ANGELIC beings - another creation entirely from us terrestrial beings living in this world.   I Corinthians 15:40-44 COMPARES the example of the difference between terrestrial (human) bodies and celestial (angelic) bodies with the corresponding difference between a natural (before physical death) body and a spiritual (resurrected and glorified) body form.

A “celestial body” is not the same thing as a “spiritual body”, although both elect angels and resurrected, glorified saints both share a comparable deathless existence.  As “children of the resurrection” with a “spiritual body”, we “cannot die anymore”, neither do we marry or are given in marriage - comparable to the elect angels who have “celestial bodies”, and who never marry and can never die.

And Buff, you might want to fix the slight typo in the last paragraph of your OP.  I believe you want II Cor. 12:2-3, not I Cor.  Made the same mistake myself in one of my last comments.

I have to disagree with you, though, that this II Cor. 12:2-3 text is speaking of PAUL caught away to the third heaven in visions and revelations.  He is speaking of a man that he personally knew from more than 14 years prior who had later on seen those visions of “unspeakable words” he could not repeat.  I believe this could possibly be referring to John, who later saw those many visions of Revelation, but was not permitted to write down what those 7 thunders uttered in Rev. 10:4.

Paul said he would glory about this other man, but of HIMSELF, he wouldn’t glory; even though he had a long list of worthy credentials in II Cor. 11:21-28.  Paul had other revelations of his own given to him by Christ (Gal. 1:13 and Eph. 3:3), but those revelations Paul WAS permitted to pass on to the church (unlike some of those “unspeakable” words heard by the other man of II Cor. 12:2-4).

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 10:47:42 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 11:05:44 »
I have to disagree with you, though, that this II Cor. 12:2-3 text is speaking of PAUL caught away to the third heaven in visions and revelations.  He is speaking of a man that he personally knew from more than 14 years prior who had later on seen those visions of “unspeakable words” he could not repeat.  I believe this could possibly be referring to John, who later saw those many visions of Revelation, but was not permitted to write down what those 7 thunders uttered in Rev. 10:4.
An interesting theory, but...

2 Corinthians is thought to have been written between AD 50-60.  Doing the math, that would place the original composition of Revelation no later than AD 46.  Even those who hold an early date for Revelation don't put it that early.  That would make it earlier than any other New Testament book.   ::lookaround::

Not to totally trash that theory.  I hold Revelation as a work of multiple authorship, and it seems possible to me that the first part could have been written that early.  But someone else then definitely had to have come back later and added to the book.

Jarrod

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 12:26:54 »
Hey Jarrod,  the dates are not a problem, because Paul became acquainted with John back in the AD 40’s after Paul’s conversion.  Paul never says in II Cor.12:2-3 that those “visions and revelations” were seen 14 years prior - only that Paul “KNEW” this nameless man back then.  Those visions Paul mentioned could then have been seen by John LATER ON (sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60, based on Revelation’s internal witness). 

II Corinthians was definitely written after the AD 57 riot of the Ephesians silversmiths (Acts 19) because Paul speaks in II Cor. 1:8-10 about his severe trials in Asia when he “despaired even of life”.  But God delivered Paul on that occasion, and Paul trusted that God “would YET deliver him”.  Which probably speaks of Paul’s imminent trial before Felix in AD 60.

This means II Corinthians quite probably was written at a time when John had just written down his Revelation visions in AD 59/60 - excluding the “unspeakable words” (of Rev. 10:4) that Paul said this nameless man had heard.  All these dates coincide with each other, which leads me to believe that the nameless man Paul wanted to give honor to was John Eleazar, the author of Revelation.  (Which was also another alias for Lazarus and the man nicknamed Barnabas).

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 14:06:34 »
3 Resurrections:

   "I have to disagree with you, though, that this II Cor. 12:2-3 text is speaking of PAUL caught away to the third heaven in visions and revelations. He is speaking of a man that he personally knew from more than 14 years prior who had later on seen those visions of 'unspeakable words' he could not repeat."

    Verse 7 of that heavenly experience, the event when he was "caught up to the third heaven," Paul continues, "So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh...to keep me from being too elated."

    It is obvious, as per the context, Paul is addressing or alluding to the same incident as noted in verses 2 and 3.

Buff

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 14:27:10 »

3 Resurrections:

    "And it’s a mistake to refer to 'Our future *CELESTIAL* BODY'. That term refers to the ANGELIC beings - another creation entirely from us terrestrial beings living in this world. I Corinthians 15:40-44 COMPARES the example of the difference between terrestrial (human) bodies and celestial (angelic) bodies with the corresponding difference between a natural (before physical death) body and a spiritual (resurrected and glorified) body form."

    I think that if you will return to my post and read again what I have submitted, you might acquire a different version than what you currently have. Bottom line is that "celestial" refers to any and all paradisiacal, heavenly, divine occupants—those who are not of earth.

Buff

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #13 on: Fri Jan 15, 2021 - 22:56:24 »
Buff, here’s how you and I can both be correct on this question of whether or not it was Paul who received revelations in II Cor. 13:2-3.  I believe Paul had read John’s visions and revelations to the 7 churches in Asia  written in AD 59/60, (that man whom he had met more than 14 years earlier), and was directly given wisdom from God to interpret what John’s visions and revelations meant.  Paul in his ministry that saturated all of Asia would have been aware of what those 7 Asian churches were reading from John’s hand.

I believe this is being spoken of by Peter in II Peter 3:15-16.  You remember, of course, that this chapter is about the last days and the Lord’s return and the cataclysms accompanying it, followed by new heavens and new earth.  Peter then said, “...even as our beloved Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also, in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood...”

So it sounds as if Paul read John’s written visions, and with “wisdom given unto him” by God to understand those visions and revelations, was able afterward to speak to the church about those things through his own epistles handed around among the churches.  To prevent him from getting exalted above measure because he understood John’s visions and revelations (while others did not), God sent Paul a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble.

As for to the point about “celestial bodies” compared to “spiritual bodies”, the only reason I am stressing a difference between the two is that God drew a careful line of distinction between angelic beings and humankind in Hebrews 2:16-17.  We are not to mix the order of angelic beings with our own humankind.  Jesus took up our flesh and blood in His incarnation, but not the nature of  angels.  The two categories are never to be mistaken for each other.  We will never become angels in the next life, even though  both angels and resurrected humanity are to share heaven’s celestial realm.

If we lump together “celestial bodies” (angelic) and “spiritual bodies” (resurrected human saints) as one and the same thing, that can lead to such strange teaching as Jesus being Satan’s brother, etc.  Not that you’re doing this, Buff.  It’s just that getting the minutiae incorrect can send people off in the wrong direction.

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Re: Our Terrestrial Body vs. Our Future Celestial Body
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jan 16, 2021 - 15:03:51 »
3 Resurrections:

    "I believe Paul had read John’s visions and revelations to the 7 churches in Asia  written in AD 59/60..."

    I have no objection to you holding to that assumption, but my explanation alludes directly to the contents of what Paul said in verse 7. I then stated...

    "It is obvious, as per the context, Paul is addressing or alluding to the same incident as noted in verses 2 and 3."

    In other words, Paul is referencing himself throughout the context. He was hesitant to mention himself specifically, although he finally did, for fear others would accuse him of boasting
_____

   Too, we ought to keep posted to the fact that "celestial" encompasses anyone, angel or saint, whose appearance in heaven is non-physical and non-tangible. Even our God is a celestial being in that He has a spiritual form. "His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen" [John 5:37].

Buff
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 16, 2021 - 21:07:30 by Reformer »

 

     
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