Author Topic: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually  (Read 5163 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #385 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:43:59 »
Yes, that was me, and it remains correct. It is the sense in which the words are used in Scripture more than any other sense...  But it isn't universal usage, or even a majority of the time.  So, let the reader beware.
Let the reader beware indeed.  I find it interesting that there is so much discussion out there about the differences between the soul and the spirit and how all of that interacts with or influences human behavior. The last time I looked into it we, Christians and non-Christians alike, could not even give good rational explanations or discussions for the conscience of man.  We really do not understand it very well, even at the highest levels of intellectual endeavors.  That any would think that we could give a detailed account of the inner workings of the soul or the spirit is almost laughable.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #385 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:43:59 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #386 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 09:32:37 »
Let the reader beware indeed.  I find it interesting that there is so much discussion out there about the differences between the soul and the spirit and how all of that interacts with or influences human behavior. The last time I looked into it we, Christians and non-Christians alike, could not even give good rational explanations or discussions for the conscience of man.  We really do not understand it very well, even at the highest levels of intellectual endeavors.  That any would think that we could give a detailed account of the inner workings of the soul or the spirit is almost laughable.

As for me, I take it from scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Christian, the whole man he is, be preserved blameless.

What is to be preserved blameless?

Body. Spirit. Soul.

I heard many who claim to comprehend the body, but I doubt if there are those who would claim to comprehend the spirit, and the soul, of man. Putting that aside, the point is, it can't be denied, that the three are different, distinct from each other. We may differ in our view of what the spirit and the soul is. But it can't be denied that the three are what Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, pray God to be preserved blameless. And I have faith in God that He will preserve not only my body, spirit, and soul, blameless, but of all the elect.
 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #387 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 09:57:21 »
As for me, I take it from scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Christian, the whole man he is, be preserved blameless.

What is to be preserved blameless?

Body. Spirit. Soul.

I heard many who claim to comprehend the body, but I doubt if there are those who would claim to comprehend the spirit, and the soul, of man. Putting that aside, the point is, it can't be denied, that the three are different, distinct from each other. We may differ in our view of what the spirit and the soul is. But it can't be denied that the three are what Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, pray God to be preserved blameless. And I have faith in God that He will preserve not only my body, spirit, and soul, blameless, but of all the elect.

Your continued use of greatly enlarged and colored text is really annoying.  If you are trying to make yourself appear smarter, it isn't working.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #387 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 09:57:21 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #388 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 10:09:52 »
Your continued use of greatly enlarged and colored text is really annoying.  If you are trying to make yourself appear smarter, it isn't working.

Emphasis. Clarity. None else.

You are smarter than me. No problem.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #388 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 10:09:52 »
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BTR

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #389 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 21:10:10 »
"almost"


"However, more importantly "soul" and "spirit" are not the same thing; and the misunderstanding of the two has caused great confusion within the body of Christ. Spirit is like "wind" or "breath" and is of a transient nature. At one moment a person may exhibit the qualities of "the spirit of Elijah" wanting to "call down fire" upon his enemies; and Yeshua would say to him: "Ye know not of what spirit ye are" as he did say to "the Sons of Thunder" James and John when they asked of him the same. However, the nephesh-soul is stationary with each man or woman. In fact, the nephesh-soul is "the man" and the body-temple is the "vehicle" which the nephesh-soul of the man "operates" like a car or machine." -quote from an elder brother

Yeshua poured out his NEPHESH-SOUL unto death:

Isaiah 53:10-12
10.  Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (HSN#5315 nephesh) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.
11.  He shall see of the travail of his soul, (HSN#5315 nephesh) and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12.  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul (HSN#5315 nephesh) unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Genesis 1:1-2
1.  In the beginning 'Elohiym created the heaven and the earth.
2.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit (HSN#7307 ruwach) of 'Elohiym moved upon the face of the waters.

Original Strong's Ref. #7307
Romanized  ruwach
Pronounced roo'-akh
from HSN7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-])wind(-y).

"In the beginning was the Word: There simply cannot be a YHWH with no capability to speak; otherwise he would be no YHWH at all. Therefore, wheresoever is YHWH, (who is omnipresent and eternal Spirit) there also is his Word, Christ Yeshua.

Now therefore this may seem extremely complicated at the start but if you can grasp the concepts below through prayerful study in the Spirit then you will find that the following is steady and true throughout the Scripture. And these things will force you into a deeper discipleship in the Word if you will adhere to the rules provided in the Scripture by what is written."

Adam was NOT said to be given Ruwach-Spirit:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7.  And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (HSN#5301 naphach) into his nostrils the breath (HSN#5397 nshamah) of life; (HSN#2416 chay) and man became a living (HSN#2416 chay) soul (HSN#5315 nephesh).

Genesis 2:7 TUA
7.  Wayiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adamlnepesh chayah.

Original Strong's Ref. #5301
Romanized  naphach
Pronounced naw-fakh'
a primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem):
KJV--blow, breath, give up, cause to lose [life], seething, snuff.

Original Strong's Ref. #5397
Romanized  nshamah
Pronounced nesh-aw-maw'
from HSN5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV--blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Original Strong's Ref. #2416
Romanized  chay
Pronounced khah'-ee
from HSN2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:
KJV-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Original Strong's Ref. #5315
Romanized  nephesh
Pronounced neh'-fesh
from HSN5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X [dis-]contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure,  (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

You see nowhere is the man Adam stated to be given Ruwach-Spirit. Adam was given the "breath of life" and became a "living soul" but none of those words are RUWACH. Those who receive Ruwach-Spirit receive it when they are born from above, (Jn.3:1-8). Thankfully we have the quote from Paul revealing the corresponding Greek words for what is written in Genesis 2:7~

1 Corinthians 15:45
45.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living (GSN#2198 zao) soul; (GSN#5590 psuche) the last Adam was made a quickening Spirit (GSN#4151 pneuma).

Original Strong's Ref. #2198
Romanized  zao
Pronounced dzah'-o
a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

Original Strong's Ref. #2222
Romanized  zoe
Pronounced dzo-ay'
from GSN2198; life (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time). Compare GSN5590.

Original Strong's Ref. #5590
Romanized  psuche
Pronounced psoo-khay'
from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Original Strong's Ref. #4151
Romanized  pneuma
Pronounced pnyoo'-mah
from GSN4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare GSN5590.

"You now have the whole lesson before you concerning these three words in Hebrew and in Greek. They are as follows and correspond throughout the entire body of Scripture. If there is anything that does not add up according to your doctrine then your doctrine is incorrect and must be adjusted accordingly, (and at the start this may be painful when you first discover what it means in many different instances)." -my elder brother

HSN#7307 Ruwach-Spirit  =  GSN#4151 Pneuma-Spirit

HSN#5315 Nephesh-Soul  =  GSN#5590 Psuche-Soul

HSN#2416 Chay-Life  =  GSN#2198/2222 Zao-Zoe-Life
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 21:12:24 by BTR »

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #389 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 21:10:10 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #390 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 06:08:30 »
If there is anything that does not add up according to your doctrine then your doctrine is incorrect and must be adjusted accordingly,
Sorry, but it is your doctrine in this that is incorrect and must be adjusted accordingly.

Quote from: BTR
You see nowhere is the man Adam stated to be given Ruwach-Spirit.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Clearly the man Adam was "given" a Ruwach-Spirit. The only way that man was created in God's own image was in the spirit God created for them. God is not flesh and blood; God is Spirit.  It is in the image of God's Spirit that He created man. It was Adam's Ruwach-Spirit that was in God's image.

That is the significant difference between the human being and all the rest of the animals is the spirit that God formed in him (Zech 12:1).





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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #390 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 06:08:30 »

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #391 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 07:58:37 »
Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam,

“What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.
-Numbers 22:28-30


And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” -Gen.6:3

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #392 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 18:09:57 »
Your continued use of greatly enlarged and colored text is really annoying.
Maybe he went to the Piney school of posting?  All that's missing are some musical locusts...

 ::band::


Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #393 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 04:52:17 »
Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam,

“What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.
-Numbers 22:28-30


And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” -Gen.6:3
And your point is ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #393 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 04:52:17 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #394 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 04:53:36 »
Maybe he went to the Piney school of posting?  All that's missing are some musical locusts...

 ::band::
::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #395 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 05:59:24 »
Michael, if you are wondering who Ol’ Piney is, That is a nickname for a poster named Kenneth Sublett who used many fonts and colors of texts to the shagrin of many here, along with many other annoying traits. Look him up, or maybe not.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #396 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 14:30:38 »
Michael, if you are wondering who Ol’ Piney is, That is a nickname for a poster named Kenneth Sublett who used many fonts and colors of texts to the shagrin of many here, along with many other annoying traits. Look him up, or maybe not.

http://piney.com/

You're welcome.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #397 on: Thu Apr 02, 2020 - 14:45:51 »
Soterion,
Quote
If I go just by the title of this thread, "Physical birth is necessary to be born again spiritually," then I have to say yes.

Only those who have sinned need to be born again, and only those who have been born in the flesh and grow up are the ones who commit sin.

So, yes, because only those who have been born in the flesh can be born again. Those who die in the womb, as well as little ones who have been born in the flesh, do not need to be born again.
The question is "Was that what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus?" Even Nicodemus objected to that idea.

Offline soterion

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #398 on: Thu Apr 02, 2020 - 18:14:49 »
Soterion,The question is "Was that what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus?" Even Nicodemus objected to that idea.

e.r.m., I'm not sure what point you are making in response to my post. I was responding to the title of the thread.

My point is that only a person who has been born physically and has sinned can be born again. So, yes, physical birth is necessary to be born again spiritually. Those who have not been born physically, and those who have been born in the flesh but have not sinned, do not need to be born again.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #399 on: Thu Apr 02, 2020 - 19:10:18 »
soterion,
Being born physically goes without saying.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus started with being born "again", therefore His proceeding statements would be expected to fall under that. Plus being born physically to enter the Kingdom of God would not be consistent with His teachings. It's more consistent that vs. 5 was talking about being born again. Why would Jesus be telling Nicodemus that he needs to be born initially to enter the kingdom of God, something that was already done?