Author Topic: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually  (Read 8122 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #350 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:07:18 »
And by the rules of the doctrine of the sinlessness of children, their sure hope is in death, to die before they make their first sin. Abortion seems to favor them and good for them. Or being killed while they are yet sinless, is their sure ticket to heaven. Their killer would be their savior then. That's the problem with that doctrine.
Did God kill Adam and Eve while they were still sinless and before they sinned?  No of course not.  And God as commanded you not to kill anyone; so it would probably be best if you let God decide how to handle the situation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #351 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:16:41 »
It is what good parents do concerning their children.
Why do you call them good?  As Jesus said, "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).
Quote
The proverb is really for the Christian parents, not the child.
It is not for the parents; rather it is what the parents are to do for the child.

Offline RB

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #352 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:17:13 »
Though I am certain some will say I am nuts.
Spiritually speaking you are~but, that does not mean that I do you love you, I have sisters and brothers of flesh and blood that Know that I KNOW that they have a pestilence disease of spiritual madness, much like Balaam. 

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #352 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:17:13 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #353 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:33:17 »
Quote from: Michael
And by the rules of the doctrine of the sinlessness of children, their sure hope is in death, to die before they make their first sin. Abortion seems to favor them and good for them. Or being killed while they are yet sinless, is their sure ticket to heaven. Their killer would be their savior then. That's the problem with that doctrine.
Did God kill Adam and Eve while they were still sinless and before they sinned?  No of course not.  And God as commanded you not to kill anyone; so it would probably be best if you let God decide how to handle the situation.

Read again my argument 4WD. You seem to have not understood it and totally missed it, judging it by what you post here.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #353 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:33:17 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #354 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:46:07 »
Quote from: Michael
It is what good parents do concerning their children.
Why do you call them good?  As Jesus said, "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).
Who am I calling good? My parents are good. How about yours? Won't you say they are good parents? Can we not say "good man" because no one is good except God alone? 
Quote from: 4WD
Quote from: Michael
The proverb is really for the Christian parents, not the child.
It is not for the parents; rather it is what the parents are to do for the child.

The proverb is about what the parents are to do concerning the child, and it is for the parents to do, not for the child.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #354 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:46:07 »



Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #355 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:46:37 »
Spiritually speaking you are~but, that does not mean that I do you love you, I have sisters and brothers of flesh and blood that Know that I KNOW that they have a pestilence disease of spiritual madness, much like Balaam.

Thank you...you boost my count to 6

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #355 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:46:37 »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #356 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:59:29 »
That has to be one of those faulty remarks that got put in the scriptures by mistake.  We all know that can't be right.  It is only God who can regenerate the lost child and thus put him on the right track;  and regeneration has nothing to do with the child or his parents.  Haven't you ever heard of Total Depravity.  Total Depravity and Proverbs such as that one can't both be true.

Careful there,you are sounding suspiciously like a Presbyterian.

Quote
That has to be one of those faulty remarks that got put in the scriptures by mistake.

Just like the faulty ending of Mark 16 that he did not write? Perhaps both were written by the same scribe.

In any event it is time for me to leave this thread. You all carry on.




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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #357 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 18:59:05 »
Then what is 1 Cor. 2:11 talking about?

In context;

"For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."


"For who among men" I don't know your heart and you don't know mine, but there is One who knows both our hearts.

How do you suppose God knows the heart of a man before he is born again?


"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart."

« Last Edit: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 19:02:41 by BTR »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #358 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 21:25:57 »
In context;

"For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."


"For who among men" I don't know your heart and you don't know mine, but there is One who knows both our hearts.

How do you suppose God knows the heart of a man before he is born again?


"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart."

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?

Context or no context, the verse would not mean anything other than what it declares. That only the SPIRIT of the man which is in him knows the thoughts of the man. That there ain't no man who knows the thoughts of another man. And no matter how you beat around that, the clear implication that the man has a spirit, his spirit, his very own spirit, could not be ignored and explained away.

The set up:

How do you suppose God knows the heart of a man before he is born again?

The work around excuse:

"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart."

The truth:

God is omniscient.

How about this one BTR. I'm curious what you will come up with this.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #358 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 21:25:57 »

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #359 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 22:55:46 »
Quote Michael2012; "How about this one BTR. I'm curious what you will come up with this."

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


May you not be found a goat.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #360 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 00:14:26 »
Quote Michael2012; "How about this one BTR. I'm curious what you will come up with this."

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


May you not be found a goat.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body will be saved.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 00:16:35 by Michael2012 »

Offline RB

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #361 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 02:52:05 »
Just trying to hear you out~so, are you saying that the breath of God is that spirit which gives life to the body? Is this what you are saying? Start another thread concerning this teaching.
BTR~This was posted for you to answer~would you please consider starting another thread on this subject by answering my question? Thank you.

Offline RB

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #362 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 04:03:09 »
This post follows 137, 162, 183, 190, 191, 290, and 320 in order.

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:8~"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
This discourse flows in a uniform motion like water, which helps us to understand what the new birth IS and the manner in which it takes place

The wind bloweth where it listeth~ or, where it pleaseth! This is Jesus speaking NOT some Calvinist, whether mild or high, it is the voice of the Son of God~so hear ye HIM. Two things to consider: One, is that the Spirit is sovereign in whom he chooses to regenerate and is not under the commands and man's thinking on, what and when he should do this or that. He is sovereign as to where and with whom he shows mercy and withhold mercy. There are many examples in the scriptures but two are sufficient for now:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 4:25-30~"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way,"
Quote from: LUKE
Acts 16:7-9~"After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us."
Just as the wind blows where he pleaseth, so does the Spirit of the Living God. Christ means that the movement and operation of the Spirit of God is not less perceptible in the renewal of man than the motion of the air in this earthly and outward life, but that the manner of it is sovereign and concealed~which we will now consider. When the wind blows we cannot see it, we only see the effects of it~so is it true of everyone born of the Spirit of God. The Spirit comes and regenerates and LEAVE without anyone knowing it, we can only see the effects of it. The Spirit is the ONLY active agent in this new birth, even the person being born again does not perceive this birth taken place~impossible. How much does any person remember their FIRST BIRTH? No one.   One of the greatest examples of the new birth and how it takes place is seen in the regeneration of the thief on the cross. AT one point while on the cross dying, he railed on Christ JUST AS THE OTHER malefactor did~yet out of NOWHERE, his attitude toward Christ changed immediately!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Matthew 27:43,44~"He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth."
Quote from: THE WORD OF GOD
Luke 23:39-43~"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
What brought about this change of mind? The work of a new creation in the spirit/heart of this thief instantly which was UNPERCEIVED by even the thief himself much more by everyone else around him! The new birth can take place in many different scenarios~it makes NO DIFFERENCE since man is dead in trespasses and sins, and God alone is the only ACTIVE person working to create this new man within the elect sinner. You can be asleep, working, driving, blasphemy, and a thousand more things one could be doing, it makes NO difference~one does not need to be in a right state of mind, praying, hearing the scriptures, etc. etc. They could be, but most likely they would NOT BE, just as this thief. It does not help God if a person was~for man is WITHOUT any spiritual strength, besides he's AT ENMITY against the God of heaven proven by this thief who seconds before railed on Jesus.

"so is every one that is born of the Spirit"~The new birth is SOLELY by the Spirit of God apart from ALL WORKS of a man just as John said:
Quote
John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
How plain is this scripture, yet the man who desires to share the glory with Jesus Christ rejects this simple clear scripture in God's word. I have heard of men boasting how many millions have brought to Christ under their preaching~yet John said NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN using his earthly wisdom in persuading men to come. Also, it is not of the flesh since THAT WILL is a slave to sin and the devil himself! Yet men boast of their FREE WILL. Free to sin, yes~ free to work righteousness at their bidding/will, NO, impossible. Romans 8 clearly answers that question.

Enough for now on this verse.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 04:14:52 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #363 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 06:52:29 »
RB, your entire argument in reply #362 above assumes that the act of God, through the Spirit, being sovereign means that it cannot depend in any way whatsoever upon the man being acted upon.  That is simply a false assumption. If that were the case, God could not respond to anything man has done.  That of course is ludicrous.  If your view of sovereignty were correct, then God couldn't even answer prayer since that would, without question, directly depend upon the one doing the praying.  Since He is God, every act of God is a sovereign act. The scriptures present over and over again [sovereign] acts of God that are in direct response to and depend directly upon what a man has done or what men have done. Your idea that regeneration being a sovereign act of God means it is completely independent upon anything the man being regenerated is or does is just wrong.

Beyond that I do think you have missed the whole point of John 3:8.  It is not so much about the wind itself or the Spirit, Himself.  Rather it is about the results of both.  We can know the results of the wind blowing, "So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.", so it is that is we can know the results of Spirits regeneration. That is the very lesson that Jesus presents in verses 11-13.  And it ends with verses 14-15 with "whosoever believes in Him may have eternal life".  So thus far we learn what God does.  Beginning in verse 16 we see why God does what He does  --   "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 06:55:26 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #364 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 08:25:27 »
RB, your entire argument in reply #362 above assumes that the act of God, through the Spirit, being sovereign means that it cannot depend in any way whatsoever upon the man being acted upon.  That is simply a false assumption.
4WD, you saying that and proving the same, are the difference between truth and error. So far you have not proven what I have taught to be against the word of God~you are only telling me that it is. Every sect under heaven would disagree as well, I'm sure. This is the old paths of men of God from Augustine to the Reformation up until the late 1800's.
Quote from: Jeremiah
Jeremiah 6:16~"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein."
So, are you one of them~saying I will not walk therein? It is the way that leads to the truth of the gospel of the grace of God.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:52:29
Beyond that I do think you have missed the whole point of John 3:8.  It is not so much about the wind itself or the Spirit, Himself.  Rather it is about the results of both.
It is strictly about the manner in which one is born of the Spirit. The results can be seen later (just as it was seen in John 3:1,2) when we shall consider John 3:15-17 the Lord willing, for I'm certainly willing.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #365 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 09:00:02 »
4WD, you saying that and proving the same, are the difference between truth and error.
RB, you are doing not one thing any differently.  Posting a verse and then saying something about it is not proof nor the truth of the meaning of the verse.  I very seldom object to what the verse actually says.  I only take issue with what you say it means.  So back to you; your giving your interpretation and proving that interpretation is the correct one is the difference between truth and error.

And with that I will repeat what I said;   Your entire argument in reply #362 above assumes that the act of God, through the Spirit, being sovereign means that it cannot depend in any way whatsoever upon the man being acted upon.  That is simply a false assumption.  Your assumption is wrong.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 09:03:00 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #366 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 18:21:05 »
I am fairly certain you are setting me up. ::tippinghat::
You volunteered yourself here.  All I did was make a snarky comment.  ::noworries::

As concise as I can be.
...which turns out to be a paragraph or two.  Tell you what, I'm concise to a fault, so I'll try to boil your comments down, and give you what I heard, and then you can respond and see if my ears/brain are receiving what you're sending.

Soul:

Simply said... Your soul is the immaterial essence and totality of who you are at a core level – it is your true nature.

I define immaterial as non tangible without form and the essence of something is its basic and most important characteristic that gives it its individual identity .

Your senses are contained in your soul and it is responsible for your feelings changing according to what is
happening around us.

Your soul is the psychological part of  you, your mind, emotion, and free will.
I read this as being mental faculties.  Not the brain (why is this distinction needed?), but the faculties thereof.

Spirit:

I love this biblical verse for it is the sum of the importance of a human spirit...Proverbs 20:27, which says,

The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

Your human spirit is the key to experiencing Christ and to living a normal Christian life. Without a human spirit you would not have a relationship with Jesus.

 When you first believed in Christ, you received forgiveness of your sins, and you were delivered from God’s eternal judgment.

But it is more involved because when you received Jesus, the savior,  the  Holy Spirit came to live in the deepest part of you.... Your human spirit, to be your life (The baptism of the Holy Spirit)

Your human spirit is your inward way for you to contact God, receive God, contain God, and assimilate God into your entire being as your life and your everything.

Your human spirit is very important to God because God desires to fill you with Himself. He wants you to receive Him, and your spirit is the unique “receiver.” Your Christian life begins with your human spirit.
So it sounds like you're saying that the spirit is some sort of two-way radio which allows one to communicate back and forth with God. 

How'd I do?

Not that you care, but if those are you definitions, then they're pretty reasonable.  They're basically in line with how the Greek philosophers used them.

I don't see at all why soul and spirit should be separated, based on those.  The faculty of communication is one of the basic mental faculties.  Isn't communications part and parcel of the mind?

I understand why Paul separated them in his epistles.  He was contrasting self-centered motives against the idea of acting in the community interest.  I didn't find that nuance in what you wrote.

I understand why much of the Bible uses them synonymously, too.  Hebrew poetry requires parallelisms to ensure that the reader can determine the meaning, and they were the closest words to matching in meaning.

As for me, it doesn't really matter how I define them, because I try to speak in clear language that the audience can understand.

I might suggest everyone do the same.  Communications work better when the transmitter and receiver are tuned to the same frequency.  ::smile::

Jarrod

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #367 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 22:44:44 »
Not that you care, but if those are you definitions, then they're pretty reasonable.  They're basically in line with how the Greek philosophers used them.

So, tell us, what do they mean according to how the Greek philosophers use them?

Share to us, your knowledge here as to what the spirit and the soul are, as they are used in the scriptures.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #368 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 06:53:06 »
Share to us, your knowledge here as to what the spirit and the soul are, as they are used in the scriptures.
Perhaps you should start new topic on the spirit and the soul rather than lead this discussion down yet another deviation.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #369 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 07:58:23 »
Perhaps you should start new topic on the spirit and the soul rather than lead this discussion down yet another deviation.

No deviation intended 4WD. I was just reacting to Wycliffes_Shillelagh's statements to seekingHiswisdom. Is that not allowed?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #370 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 08:12:54 »
No deviation intended 4WD. I was just reacting to Wycliffes_Shillelagh's statements to seekingHiswisdom. Is that not allowed?
I said nothing about not being allowed.  You are free to post whatever you want wherever you want within the rules of the forum.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #371 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 08:17:24 »
I said nothing about not being allowed.  You are free to post whatever you want wherever you want within the rules of the forum.
I did not say you said anything about not being allowed. I was just asking if what I posted was not allowed.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #372 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 18:09:48 »
So, tell us, what do they mean according to how the Greek philosophers use them?
Can do.  The two are similar in that they both describe motivation and animation - that is, they arise out of the question of 'how a living being can move itself?'  In both cases, the process is thought to hydraulic and/or pneumatic.

They differ in source.  The soul (psyche, anima) is tied to the lower nature of a man.  I say lower in the sense that it is related to the body.  The leading idea is that the basic needs of the body create appetites, which motivate/animate the body to move to fulfil them - things like hunger, thirst, sexual appetite.  These may be subject to imbalances of the various humours.  For contrast, spirit (pneuma) is tied to the higher nature of a man, which includes mental capabilities - logic, the pursuit of knowledge, and actions undertaken for the betterment of the larger body of the city.

Share to us, your knowledge here as to what the spirit and the soul are, as they are used in the scriptures.
Scriptures don't use the two words uniformly.

The Old Testament books of poetry (Psalms, Proverbs, Job) use the two words interchangeably, usually with a meaning close to what we think of as mind.

The Old Testament books of history, and the Pentateuch, frequently use soul (nephesh) simply to mean person, or self.  Spirit there more commonly refers to attitude - a mental state, as opposed to the whole mind.

The prophets and the gospels use spirit in an extended sense sometimes - it can pertain to things like books and speeches, as well as mental illnesses.  Sometimes certain desires or attitudes can even be anthropomorphized.  There is also a feature of Hebrew that I don't think is translatable, which I cannot well explain, other than to say that sometimes words are used for the pictures they evoke, and how those pictures relate to the words around them.  So sometimes there is no word-for-word translation that is accurate, and meaning needs to be assigned based on a larger context, here.

And finally there's Paul, who uses both words in the classical philosophic sense in his letters sometimes, but other times uses Hebrew prophetic imagery.

Finally, I'll just point out that if you're insisting on uniform definitions for these words throughout Scripture, you've already handicapped yourself as far as understanding the text.

Jarrod

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #373 on: Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 23:53:23 »
Can do.  The two are similar in that they both describe motivation and animation - that is, they arise out of the question of 'how a living being can move itself?'  In both cases, the process is thought to hydraulic and/or pneumatic.

They differ in source.  The soul (psyche, anima) is tied to the lower nature of a man.  I say lower in the sense that it is related to the body.  The leading idea is that the basic needs of the body create appetites, which motivate/animate the body to move to fulfil them - things like hunger, thirst, sexual appetite.  These may be subject to imbalances of the various humours.  For contrast, spirit (pneuma) is tied to the higher nature of a man, which includes mental capabilities - logic, the pursuit of knowledge, and actions undertaken for the betterment of the larger body of the city.
Scriptures don't use the two words uniformly.

The Old Testament books of poetry (Psalms, Proverbs, Job) use the two words interchangeably, usually with a meaning close to what we think of as mind.

The Old Testament books of history, and the Pentateuch, frequently use soul (nephesh) simply to mean person, or self.  Spirit there more commonly refers to attitude - a mental state, as opposed to the whole mind.

The prophets and the gospels use spirit in an extended sense sometimes - it can pertain to things like books and speeches, as well as mental illnesses.  Sometimes certain desires or attitudes can even be anthropomorphized.  There is also a feature of Hebrew that I don't think is translatable, which I cannot well explain, other than to say that sometimes words are used for the pictures they evoke, and how those pictures relate to the words around them.  So sometimes there is no word-for-word translation that is accurate, and meaning needs to be assigned based on a larger context, here.

And finally there's Paul, who uses both words in the classical philosophic sense in his letters sometimes, but other times uses Hebrew prophetic imagery.

Finally, I'll just point out that if you're insisting on uniform definitions for these words throughout Scripture, you've already handicapped yourself as far as understanding the text.

Jarrod

Thank you for sharing.

If I may ask,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What can you say about those in red font? In what sense does Paul there uses "spirit" and "soul"?

What are the elements of the nature of man in your view?

BTR

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #374 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 04:40:32 »
“If He should determine to do so,
            If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,

      All flesh would perish together,
            And man would return to dust.
- Job 34:15

In this equation where do you see a human spirit, or a spirit that is mans?

man is a living soul, we are not eternal beings without Gods Spirit. When you start dragging in Greek philosophy, men's ideas, you end up with polytheism.
That is why people today think that they are three parts.

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. Pro. 20:27

Who's lamp is it? this verse is telling you.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:26

This is what Jesus means when he calls them dead. and in another place, 'white washed tombs full of dead men's bones.'


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #375 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 05:31:37 »
“If He should determine to do so,
            If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,

      All flesh would perish together,
            And man would return to dust.
- Job 34:15

In this equation where do you see a human spirit, or a spirit that is mans?

Here's a clearer scriptures:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What can you say about those in red font?

Quote from: BTR
man is a living soul, we are not eternal beings without Gods Spirit. When you start dragging in Greek philosophy, men's ideas, you end up with polytheism.
That is why people today think that they are three parts.

That's your opinion.

I believe in the scriptures of God. Paul speaks of the man, as having spirit, soul, and body. He pray God that the Christian's whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is the whole of man. That is what Paul prayed for to be of man as to be preserved blameless. You say man don't have a spirit of his own. Between you and Paul, I would believe what Paul teaches any time. Besides he was a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ, chosen by Jesus Himself, inspired by and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: BTR
The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. Pro. 20:27

Who's lamp is it? this verse is telling you.

The Lord's.

Whose spirit is it?

Quote from: BTR
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:26

This is what Jesus means when he calls them dead. and in another place, 'white washed tombs full of dead men's bones.'

Jesus calls people "dead", even while they have the breath of life in their nostrils.

Besides what James says to be dead there without the spirit, is the body, not the man.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 05:33:49 by Michael2012 »

BTR

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #376 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 06:37:00 »
Here's a clearer scriptures:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What can you say about those in red font?

That's your opinion.

I believe in the scriptures of God. Paul speaks of the man, as having spirit, soul, and body. He pray God that the Christian's whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is the whole of man. That is what Paul prayed for to be of man as to be preserved blameless. You say man don't have a spirit of his own. Between you and Paul, I would believe what Paul teaches any time. Besides he was a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ, chosen by Jesus Himself, inspired by and filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Lord's.

Whose spirit is it?

Jesus calls people "dead", even while they have the breath of life in their nostrils.

Besides what James says to be dead there without the spirit, is the body, not the man.

You think that you are an eternal spirit and that when you die your eternal spirit is judged for something the soul has done, then it gets tortured for eternity. That is twisted, mans idea.

"The soul that sins shall surely die." "The wadge of sin is death." Man can not create spirits, only other men. When we are born from above, born of God then and only then we are eternal.


Quote Micheal2012: What can you say about those in red font?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 -God has made you whole, may you stay that way.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #377 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 07:18:33 »
You think that you are an eternal spirit and that when you die your eternal spirit is judged for something the soul has done, then it gets tortured for eternity. That is twisted, mans idea.

"The soul that sins shall surely die." "The wadge of sin is death." Man can not create spirits, only other men. When we are born from above, born of God then and only then we are eternal.

You say a lot of new things and seems to want to talk about them. We can go to those things, if you want. But not after we finish with the current issues we are dealing with.

You presented scriptures:

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. Pro. 20:27

You asked me a question, I answered it. I asked you a question, "Whose spirit is it?" You ignored it. Why? Don't the scriptures tell you whose spirit it is?

Quote from: BTR
Quote Micheal2012: What can you say about those in red font?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 -God has made you whole, may you stay that way.

So, apparently, you can't accept the truth that man is spirit, soul, and body.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #378 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 08:01:16 »
So, apparently, you can't accept the truth that man is spirit, soul, and body.
Tell us, please, what you think is the difference between the soul and the spirit as defined or indicated by Scripture.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #379 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 12:47:07 »
Tell us, please, what you think is the difference between the soul and the spirit as defined or indicated by Scripture.

This is my present understanding.

The spirit is the part of man by which contact and relation with God and spiritual things is possible. It is the part of man that comes from God. So, obviously, it is that which has to do with life and anything spiritual.
 
The soul is the mind and heart of man, that is, his person, his consciousness, conscience, and will. The soul is the center of the whole being of man. It includes his thought, thinking, understanding, knowledge, intention, judgment, emotions, appetites, desires, senses, etc. Such things, as pertaining the body are carnal, and as pertaining to the spirit are spiritual.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 12:49:20 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #380 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 12:59:13 »
I strongly disagree but I will just leave it there.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #381 on: Tue Mar 17, 2020 - 13:16:24 »
If I may ask,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What can you say about those in red font? In what sense does Paul there uses "spirit" and "soul"?
You're not going to like this answer, because it doesn't get to the point of what you're driving at, but nonetheless...

The portion you bolded in this verse - spirit and soul and body - is a synecdoche.  All three of spirit and soul and body are being used to drive home one single, bigger point.  Paul's point here isn't to enumerate the parts that constitute a man.  His point is to emphasize (and re-emphasize) the completeness of the salvation in view.  If I'm paraphrasing, I read it like this:

May God Himself set you apart for Himself in whole.  I pray He may save you totally... not just your spirit... not only your soul... more than just your body... but that you may you be preserved blameless in whole, til Jesus, our instated ruler, returns.

What are the elements of the nature of man in your view?
There isn't a universal answer... It depends on the context of what you're talking about. 

I hope my doctor thinks in terms of heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, etc. 

For the purpose of examining motivations (contextually this is usually Paul's purpose), I prefer a 7-fold division of motives - survival, pleasure, control, camaraderie, influence, curiosity, and the desire to be part of something bigger than oneself.  Those don't derive from the Bible, but I find them useful.

I suspect that the concern for most Christians is a question of "how much of me survives?"  That question shouldn't really be that difficult.  You body doesn't.  Those motivations which derive from the body also do not.  The rest of your intellect - the better parts, logic and learning, creativity, remain and are passed on.

Jarrod

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #382 on: Thu Mar 19, 2020 - 03:23:21 »
Quote from: Michael
If I may ask,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What can you say about those in red font? In what sense does Paul there uses "spirit" and "soul"?
You're not going to like this answer, because it doesn't get to the point of what you're driving at, but nonetheless...

The portion you bolded in this verse - spirit and soul and body - is a synecdoche.  All three of spirit and soul and body are being used to drive home one single, bigger point.  Paul's point here isn't to enumerate the parts that constitute a man.  His point is to emphasize (and re-emphasize) the completeness of the salvation in view.  If I'm paraphrasing, I read it like this:

May God Himself set you apart for Himself in whole.  I pray He may save you totally... not just your spirit... not only your soul... more than just your body... but that you may you be preserved blameless in whole, til Jesus, our instated ruler, returns.

I agree, it was not Paul's point there to enumerate the parts that constitute a man. But nonetheless, Paul by that have told us what constitutes the whole of man, at least according to him. And I would go with Paul on that regard. 

Quote from: WS
Quote from: Michael
What are the elements of the nature of man in your view?
There isn't a universal answer... It depends on the context of what you're talking about. 

I hope my doctor thinks in terms of heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, etc. 

For the purpose of examining motivations (contextually this is usually Paul's purpose), I prefer a 7-fold division of motives - survival, pleasure, control, camaraderie, influence, curiosity, and the desire to be part of something bigger than oneself.  Those don't derive from the Bible, but I find them useful.

I suspect that the concern for most Christians is a question of "how much of me survives?"  That question shouldn't really be that difficult.  You body doesn't.  Those motivations which derive from the body also do not.  The rest of your intellect - the better parts, logic and learning, creativity, remain and are passed on.

God created man. The elements of the nature of man can be known in scriptures, the words of the creator.

If we are to examine scriptures, we learn that man is a creature with body. But not only a body, but with a spirit and a soul. It is all of that, the whole of man, that Paul pray God to be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 19, 2020 - 03:26:46 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #383 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 06:37:34 »
The portion you bolded in this verse - spirit and soul and body - is a synecdoche.  All three of spirit and soul and body are being used to drive home one single, bigger point.  Paul's point here isn't to enumerate the parts that constitute a man.  His point is to emphasize (and re-emphasize) the completeness of the salvation in view.
I agree with you completely about Paul's use of the phrase body, soul, and spirit.  It means the whole man just as you say.

However, beyond that, it does make the point that there is a body, there is a soul and there is a spirit and they are not the same.  I believe it was you who, many years ago, stated that as human beings, man is a soul; he has a body and a spirit.  I agree completely with you on that.  I would add that throughout the Bible, and particularly the NT, when speaking about the human being, soul and spirit are almost always used interchangeably.

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Re: Physicial birth is necessary to be born again spiritually
« Reply #384 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 00:31:20 »
I agree with you completely about Paul's use of the phrase body, soul, and spirit.  It means the whole man just as you say.

However, beyond that, it does make the point that there is a body, there is a soul and there is a spirit and they are not the same.  I believe it was you who, many years ago, stated that as human beings, man is a soul; he has a body and a spirit.  I agree completely with you on that.  I would add that throughout the Bible, and particularly the NT, when speaking about the human being, soul and spirit are almost always used interchangeably.
Yes, that was me, and it remains correct. It is the sense in which the words are used in Scripture more than any other sense...  But it isn't universal usage, or even a majority of the time.  So, let the reader beware.

 

     
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