Author Topic: Please help me to understand  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline mclees8

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #70 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 18:23:52 »
No man can come to God except God draw him   

But with out faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and the he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him   Heb 11:6

One must be convinced of faith before he is given saving faith.

Convinced of faith???  What does that mean?


I guess you will just have to ponder it 4WD.  If one is not sure or believe that God is and seeks after Him he will not be able to come to saving faith. It is  by that same faith we believe on Jesus. Believing in God does not save us but it is the first step.Muslims believe in God but hat will not save them. God draws us to saving knowledge. I know this by my own experience.

I pondered it.  It makes no sense.  Here you said. "by [that same] faith we believe on Jesus."   Faith is not the path to believing.     Faith is believing. Believing in/on Jesus is faith.

I agree believing in God does not save us.  The Scribes and Pharisees and the Sadducees all believed in God.  They just didn't believe what God told them in the Scriptures.

And I agree that God draws us.  The question is how.  He does that through His Word, the Scriptures.  There is from nowhere else that it comes.

John 6:45  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


I wonder why you cannot see it.  It is so simple.  Lets look again at the verse Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

By faith we must believe God is for how else can we understand creation. By this faith  we except that God is, so also must we believe by faith that Jesus is the Christ and the way of salvation.

Here is you statement    ( Faith is believing. Believing in/on Jesus is faith.) We also believe by faith that He is.  So if we accept that God is, by faith, so we also except Christ also is the way of salvation. I pray that this clarifies my comment but I can post my earliest experience that led me to Christ by that very way I have said.  It was not enough that I believed and sought to know God, but because God saw my heart and spirit to know Him he revealed Jesus to me as the only way to know God. 

You said faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  Before I knew Christ reading was not any part of my life nor was listening to men preach. But because of Gods word and the foolishness of preaching I was convinced  to know Christ.   Faith then fed more faith.

In English we have two words, faith and belief in the noun forms, and to have faith and to believe in the verb forms.  You are using these words as if they were different in meaning.  But in the Greek there aren't two different words for faith and belief.  They are the same words. Effectively you are saying the Bible says we must have faith to have faith or we must believe in order to believe.  As I said, it doesn't make any sense.

I re read and it still make sense to me.

Online 4WD

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #71 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 07:56:21 »
No man can come to God except God draw him   

But with out faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and the he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him   Heb 11:6

One must be convinced of faith before he is given saving faith.

Convinced of faith???  What does that mean?


I guess you will just have to ponder it 4WD.  If one is not sure or believe that God is and seeks after Him he will not be able to come to saving faith. It is  by that same faith we believe on Jesus. Believing in God does not save us but it is the first step.Muslims believe in God but hat will not save them. God draws us to saving knowledge. I know this by my own experience.

I pondered it.  It makes no sense.  Here you said. "by [that same] faith we believe on Jesus."   Faith is not the path to believing.     Faith is believing. Believing in/on Jesus is faith.

I agree believing in God does not save us.  The Scribes and Pharisees and the Sadducees all believed in God.  They just didn't believe what God told them in the Scriptures.

And I agree that God draws us.  The question is how.  He does that through His Word, the Scriptures.  There is from nowhere else that it comes.

John 6:45  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


I wonder why you cannot see it.  It is so simple.  Lets look again at the verse Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

By faith we must believe God is for how else can we understand creation. By this faith  we except that God is, so also must we believe by faith that Jesus is the Christ and the way of salvation.

Here is you statement    ( Faith is believing. Believing in/on Jesus is faith.) We also believe by faith that He is.  So if we accept that God is, by faith, so we also except Christ also is the way of salvation. I pray that this clarifies my comment but I can post my earliest experience that led me to Christ by that very way I have said.  It was not enough that I believed and sought to know God, but because God saw my heart and spirit to know Him he revealed Jesus to me as the only way to know God. 

You said faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  Before I knew Christ reading was not any part of my life nor was listening to men preach. But because of Gods word and the foolishness of preaching I was convinced  to know Christ.   Faith then fed more faith.

In English we have two words, faith and belief in the noun forms, and to have faith and to believe in the verb forms.  You are using these words as if they were different in meaning.  But in the Greek there aren't two different words for faith and belief.  They are the same words. Effectively you are saying the Bible says we must have faith to have faith or we must believe in order to believe.  As I said, it doesn't make any sense.

I re read and it still make sense to me.

That we must have faith to have faith makes sense to you?  Interesting.

Offline MoodyMoose

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #72 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 10:07:35 »
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #73 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 12:41:46 »
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

If you read that entire passage, you will see that it is the spiritual gifts that are being measured.

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #73 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 12:41:46 »

Offline MoodyMoose

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #74 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 15:03:14 »
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

If you read that entire passage, you will see that it is the spiritual gifts that are being measured.

I've read the passage.

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #74 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 15:03:14 »

Online DaveW

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #75 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 08:18:07 »
Yes, I am sure about that.  Romans 12:3 is a much contested verse with respect to what it means.  Given the subject that Paul is speaking of, namely, spiritual gifts and the difference in those spiritual gifts (vv.4-9), the measure it seems to me has to do with the gifts given in accordance with the faith of the individual to whom the gift was given.  That is, the spiritual gifts are measured out in accordance with the faith of the one being given the gift.

It seems every verse that steps on someone's pet doctrines becomes "a much contested verse with respect to what it means."  Is it because they do not want to have to let go of those pet doctrines; so they contest it?

The intrepretation you give may fit the overall tenor of the chapter; but it does damage to the specific wording of the verse. 

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #76 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 08:27:22 »
Yes, I am sure about that.  Romans 12:3 is a much contested verse with respect to what it means.  Given the subject that Paul is speaking of, namely, spiritual gifts and the difference in those spiritual gifts (vv.4-9), the measure it seems to me has to do with the gifts given in accordance with the faith of the individual to whom the gift was given.  That is, the spiritual gifts are measured out in accordance with the faith of the one being given the gift.

It seems every verse that steps on someone's pet doctrines becomes "a much contested verse with respect to what it means."  Is it because they do not want to have to let go of those pet doctrines; so they contest it?

The intrepretation you give may fit the overall tenor of the chapter; but it does damage to the specific wording of the verse.

Faith as a gift, in any sense other than a special supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit, does damage to the specific wording of the entire Bible.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #77 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 01:02:54 »
Sorry my response on this is late.  I had meant to check back on this, but then I ended up going in and having my tonsils out, and then there were pain meds...

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But others' sins, and yes - especially our parents - affect us in ways that may set us up for failure.  The son of an alcoholic isn't guilty of his father's drunkeness.  He's guilty of his own drunkeness, though, when he acts out what he saw daddy do.  That (mis)behavior became "normal" to him.  This is the sense in which "the sins of the fathers" are visited on the children.  It's pretty powerful.
I thought the scriptures say the sins of the father won't pass to their sons or children?
It actually says that the iniquity of the fathers will be visited on the children.  Notice the bolded words.  "Iniquity" isn't exactly a synonym for sin.  "Visited" is different from inherited or passed down. 

Iniquity is institutionalized sin - a sort of environmental damage.  I gave an example before; I'll try another one now.  Let's say that your family has a long, glorious history of being moonshiners and bootleggers.  (That is, your grandfathers and great-grandfathers were engaged in the illegal production and distribution of alcohol products, during a time when that was illegal).  When the sin has become an institution of your family like that, that's what Old Testament calls "iniquity."  But it's important to note that being born into that family doesn't automatically make you guilty of that sin.  It makes it significantly more likely that you will engage in it later... but you aren't personally guilty until you actually do it.


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Then when people speak of original sin and our bearing that when we're born they're wrong? That's not scriptural?
It's a misinterpretation/misapplication/misunderstanding of something that is real/scriptural.  Iniquity exists.  That's real. 

But the theoretical extremes - Saying that a newborn is guilty of someone else's sin is kind of ridiculous, IMO.  And mostly irrelevant.  Spend a day with a toddler.  I bet you can count at least 2 or 3 sins before the day is over.

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Predestination then only applies to Israel? Those verses that speak of Gods predestination of the elect? The elect then being Israel alone?
Yes, election and predestination refer only to the descendants of Abraham.  The proper term would be "Hebrews," I believe.

But here's the thing... so many people have been adopted unto Abraham... and so many people have been trimmed off that family tree... that the word "Hebrew" doesn't even identify an ethnic group of people anymore.  We're all... red, brown, yellow, black, and white...  So sometimes the title "elect" gets used a little cavalierly to refer to all believers, since we are all adopted to Abraham.


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What you describe here is what I call fate.  Not destiny.
Not much  of a difference is there? In terms of an omniscient father God being at the root of all that transpires amid his creation.
Fate is tied to a single person.  There is therefore no escape from fate.

Predestination is tied to a group of people, usually in a certain place, and usually related to each other.  A person born into that place and group is "predestined" but he can change his destination if he changes his location and/or family ties.  The son of a Columbian drug-lord is "destined" to be a bad man as long as he stays with daddy in Columbia.  But uproot him at age 2 and give him to a nice foster family in Los Angeles, and suddenly his "destiny" looks a lot different.

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I'm aware of the scriptures that speak of Christ and his reign on earth. But I thought that when we die prior to that that our souls go to Heaven or Hell immediately.
Maybe they do... I don't honestly know that.  But as nearly as I can tell, our final destination is here on earth.  Seems odd to me to send everyone to "heaven" only to bring them back to earth.

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Offline MoodyMoose

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 09:31:13 »
 ::hug::  Your post helped a great deal. Thank you for taking the time and I hope you're feeling better. This all helps put things into perspective rather well.

Thank you again.

Sorry my response on this is late.  I had meant to check back on this, but then I ended up going in and having my tonsils out, and then there were pain meds...

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But others' sins, and yes - especially our parents - affect us in ways that may set us up for failure.  The son of an alcoholic isn't guilty of his father's drunkeness.  He's guilty of his own drunkeness, though, when he acts out what he saw daddy do.  That (mis)behavior became "normal" to him.  This is the sense in which "the sins of the fathers" are visited on the children.  It's pretty powerful.
I thought the scriptures say the sins of the father won't pass to their sons or children?
It actually says that the iniquity of the fathers will be visited on the children.  Notice the bolded words.  "Iniquity" isn't exactly a synonym for sin.  "Visited" is different from inherited or passed down. 

Iniquity is institutionalized sin - a sort of environmental damage.  I gave an example before; I'll try another one now.  Let's say that your family has a long, glorious history of being moonshiners and bootleggers.  (That is, your grandfathers and great-grandfathers were engaged in the illegal production and distribution of alcohol products, during a time when that was illegal).  When the sin has become an institution of your family like that, that's what Old Testament calls "iniquity."  But it's important to note that being born into that family doesn't automatically make you guilty of that sin.  It makes it significantly more likely that you will engage in it later... but you aren't personally guilty until you actually do it.


Quote
Then when people speak of original sin and our bearing that when we're born they're wrong? That's not scriptural?
It's a misinterpretation/misapplication/misunderstanding of something that is real/scriptural.  Iniquity exists.  That's real. 

But the theoretical extremes - Saying that a newborn is guilty of someone else's sin is kind of ridiculous, IMO.  And mostly irrelevant.  Spend a day with a toddler.  I bet you can count at least 2 or 3 sins before the day is over.

Quote
Predestination then only applies to Israel? Those verses that speak of Gods predestination of the elect? The elect then being Israel alone?
Yes, election and predestination refer only to the descendants of Abraham.  The proper term would be "Hebrews," I believe.

But here's the thing... so many people have been adopted unto Abraham... and so many people have been trimmed off that family tree... that the word "Hebrew" doesn't even identify an ethnic group of people anymore.  We're all... red, brown, yellow, black, and white...  So sometimes the title "elect" gets used a little cavalierly to refer to all believers, since we are all adopted to Abraham.


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What you describe here is what I call fate.  Not destiny.
Not much  of a difference is there? In terms of an omniscient father God being at the root of all that transpires amid his creation.
Fate is tied to a single person.  There is therefore no escape from fate.

Predestination is tied to a group of people, usually in a certain place, and usually related to each other.  A person born into that place and group is "predestined" but he can change his destination if he changes his location and/or family ties.  The son of a Columbian drug-lord is "destined" to be a bad man as long as he stays with daddy in Columbia.  But uproot him at age 2 and give him to a nice foster family in Los Angeles, and suddenly his "destiny" looks a lot different.

Quote
I'm aware of the scriptures that speak of Christ and his reign on earth. But I thought that when we die prior to that that our souls go to Heaven or Hell immediately.
Maybe they do... I don't honestly know that.  But as nearly as I can tell, our final destination is here on earth.  Seems odd to me to send everyone to "heaven" only to bring them back to earth.

Jarrod

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Re: Please help me to understand
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 09:31:13 »

 

     
anything