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Author Topic: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death  (Read 887 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 20:53:42 »
A tearful little boy grappling with big existential questions after the death of his father received some touching words of consolation from Pope Francis.

The poignant moment between the pontiff and the child on Sunday highlighted Francis’ enduring emphasis on prioritizing mercy.

............................................ ...................


The pope said that God decides who goes to heaven, and that God has “the heart of a father.” He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“No,” the children shouted back.

“There, Emanuele, that is the answer,” the pope said, according to a translation provided by the Catholic News Service. “God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”


Read the rest here:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/heartsick-boy-asks-atheist-dad-193340202.html

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Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 20:53:42 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 21:00:59 »
From the above article.

The pope said that God decides who goes to heaven, and that God has “the heart of a father.” He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“No,” the children shouted back.

“There, Emanuele, that is the answer,” the pope said, according to a translation provided by the Catholic News Service.


I find Pope Francis's response humanistic but contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's very concerning to see such a Joel Osteen-like Pope.

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 21:00:59 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #2 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 03:19:01 »
I cant see any comparison at all between Joel and the pope, but I suspect that he said it for the child's sake. To tell a child whose father had died that he would be in hell would have been cruel.
Whether he actually believes that or not its hard to say.

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #2 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 03:19:01 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #3 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 04:32:11 »
I cant see any comparison at all between Joel and the pope, but I suspect that he said it for the child's sake. To tell a child whose father had died that he would be in hell would have been cruel.
Whether he actually believes that or not its hard to say.

So it's ok that he lied to the kid?

Maybe this is a man/woman thing.  One of the ladies on my Facebook Friends list Shared that story and video, and so it showed up in my Newsfeed.  A few other women were all tearfully appreciative.  I, on the other hand, concisely peed in the punchbowl with the same sentiments I expressed in my opening sentence here.

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #3 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 04:32:11 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #4 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:21:47 »
I don't know that the Pope implied anything about the man being in heaven. He said God has the love of a father and this boy's father was a good man, at least good enough to have his children baptized, and that God was surely proud of the man. I can understand why some say the Pope implied the man was in heaven, but I can also see why the Pope spoke as he did and still not mean that boy's father is in heaven.

I've learned that you don't always have to spell out the final destination of a loved one who was for sure an unbeliever. Just talk about the love of God and how those who depart this life are in His care. Going just by the article, the Pope kept his words unspecific enough so as to not outright lie, and still comfort the boy.

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #4 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:21:47 »



Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #5 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:36:28 »
From my perspective he should have quietly told the boy, no & let him mourn for his dad. To me that seems more merciful than giving the boy a false hope.

In Luke 11 Jesus told that we being evil can do good for our children.
"11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

To me it seems the Bible is clear on the matter:
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #5 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:36:28 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #6 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 09:21:40 »
From my perspective he should have quietly told the boy, no & let him mourn for his dad. To me that seems more merciful than giving the boy a false hope.


I agree that telling the truth is the best, but he is a small child and it is a funeral. The truth can be given to him at a better time afterward.

On another note, imagine if the Pope had whispered in the boy's ear, "No." What do you think the headlines would say? The Pope is going to be a politician and cater to his flock, so no rocking the boat by upsetting the boy while the cameras are rolling. A happy outcome makes the Pope look better to the majority.

Offline Alan

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #7 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 09:31:47 »
No one, including Emanuel knows for sure if the man was truly a disbeliever. Many that speak against God are people that have an axe to grind. I think the Pope's words were eloquent and comforting, nor did he maliciously lie to the children. 

Offline Carey

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #8 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:17:26 »
No one, including Emanuel knows for sure if the man was truly a disbeliever. Many that speak against God are people that have an axe to grind. I think the Pope's words were eloquent and comforting, nor did he maliciously lie to the children.

This^,  +1


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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #8 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:17:26 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #9 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:31:10 »
No one, including Emanuel knows for sure if the man was truly a disbeliever. Many that speak against God are people that have an axe to grind. I think the Pope's words were eloquent and comforting, nor did he maliciously lie to the children.


I don't have an axe to grind.


When I read the Bible I find clear scriptures on the matter. Even our Lord is very clear:

"he that believeth not shall be damned"


The boy understands his dad went to the grave as an atheist (a believeth not), based on that knowledge provided by the boy there is only one answer.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:34:19 by TonkaTim »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #10 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:35:08 »
This^,  +1

Not this.  100% disagree.  Pope may have sent this boy on the highway to hell because he didnt want to hurt his feelings.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #11 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:04:53 »
I think the Pope is right that only God knows the heart and salvational condition of a person...

having said that, I'm not sure the rest of what he said was actually kind. I don't think he should have shouted at the boy "He's in HELL!", but I think I would have preferred (if I were the boys mother) that He said, "Only God knows, but I do know that He will never leave you in your sorrow and missing your daddy so very much.  I know that as much as He loves you, He also loved your daddy and though I can't say for sure that he is *with* Jesus now, I can tell you, that Jesus is with *you*...every second, every hour and catches all the tears you weep for your precious dad. He is in your sorrow with you."

Offline AVZ

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #12 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:09:40 »
Something needs to be clarified here.
Whenever the Pope takes audience, questioners get selected and every question that is going to be asked is pre-screened.
Only a handful of people actually get the opportunity to ask their question.

This was not some surprise question.
Forget about the Pope not wanting to hurt the boys feelings. Forget about the Pope telling the boy something differently afterwards.

The Pope answered this question the way he did because he wanted to answer it the way he did.
This is the "gospel" this Pope preaches and this is the message he wants to carry out.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #13 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:12:48 »
Something needs to be clarified here.
Whenever the Pope takes audience, questioners get selected and every question that is going to be asked is pre-screened.
Only a handful of people actually get the opportunity to ask their question.

This was not some surprise question.
Forget about the Pope not wanting to hurt the boys feelings. Forget about the Pope telling the boy something differently afterwards.

The Pope answered this question the way he did because he wanted to answer it the way he did.
This is the "gospel" this Pope preaches and this is the message he wants to carry out.

Good point.  And a false gospel.

Offline Alan

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #14 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:17:47 »

I don't have an axe to grind.


When I read the Bible I find clear scriptures on the matter. Even our Lord is very clear:

"he that believeth not shall be damned"


The boy understands his dad went to the grave as an atheist (a believeth not), based on that knowledge provided by the boy there is only one answer.


When I say that some people have an axe to grind, I'm referring to people that profess to be atheists but still refer to God in a negative context, very likely never in public. Many of these people have been hurt in life and without an understanding of God's nature, He gets the blame.

Offline Alan

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #15 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:21:02 »
Something needs to be clarified here.
Whenever the Pope takes audience, questioners get selected and every question that is going to be asked is pre-screened.
Only a handful of people actually get the opportunity to ask their question.

This was not some surprise question.
Forget about the Pope not wanting to hurt the boys feelings. Forget about the Pope telling the boy something differently afterwards.

The Pope answered this question the way he did because he wanted to answer it the way he did.
This is the "gospel" this Pope preaches and this is the message he wants to carry out.


I disagree, I think the Pope was attempting to edify on this occasion specifically, he wasn't reaching into a bag of tricks.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #16 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:31:18 »

I disagree, I think the Pope was attempting to edify on this occasion specifically, he wasn't reaching into a bag of tricks.

He failed miserably then.

Offline Alan

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #17 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:35:39 »
He failed miserably then.


Disagree again, seems like his response was well received.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #18 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 12:37:41 »

Disagree again, seems like his response was well received.

Well received, but contradicts God's Word.

Atheists happy, God is not.

Offline RB

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #19 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 14:55:27 »
Something needs to be clarified here.
Whenever the Pope takes audience, questioners get selected and every question that is going to be asked is pre-screened.
Only a handful of people actually get the opportunity to ask their question.

This was not some surprise question.
Forget about the Pope not wanting to hurt the boys feelings. Forget about the Pope telling the boy something differently afterwards.

The Pope answered this question the way he did because he wanted to answer it the way he did.
This is the "gospel" this Pope preaches and this is the message he wants to carry out.

Brother what you have said in this post is absolutely so~the question was PREPLANNED, to think otherwise is to think as a fool. I use the word fool as Solomon does in Proverbs~a person who does not think spiritually~with the mind of Christ. So, please no one take that personally for I have thought as a fool many times over, to my own hurt.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #20 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 16:16:55 »
So it's ok that he lied to the kid?

Maybe this is a man/woman thing.  One of the ladies on my Facebook Friends list Shared that story and video, and so it showed up in my Newsfeed.  A few other women were all tearfully appreciative.  I, on the other hand, concisely peed in the punchbowl with the same sentiments I expressed in my opening sentence here.

I expect he said what he thought was best in the circumstances on the spur of the moment. I would never be cruel enough to tell a child that their dead parent was in hell.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #21 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 18:51:39 »
I expect he said what he thought was best in the circumstances on the spur of the moment. I would never be cruel enough to tell a child that their dead parent was in hell.

What "spur of the moment"?
You really think the Pope did not know prior what questions were going to be asked?

Offline Open Heart

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #22 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 04:16:51 »
What "spur of the moment"?
You really think the Pope did not know prior what questions were going to be asked?
Yes, exactly that.  I think the crying child spontaneously asked him the question.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #23 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 17:20:28 »
I expect he said what he thought was best in the circumstances on the spur of the moment. I would never be cruel enough to tell a child that their dead parent was in hell.

I would try to be as gentle as possible, but I'm pretty sure I would indeed be so "cruel."

Offline Alan

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #24 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 17:52:41 »
Kid is all of 6 or 7, seems awfully suspect that he knows that his father was an atheist. Maybe the kid is assuming because dad didn't go to church?

Offline soterion

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #25 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 20:01:30 »
Kid is all of 6 or 7, seems awfully suspect that he knows that his father was an atheist. Maybe the kid is assuming because dad didn't go to church?

Maybe dad just came right out and said he did not believe. He took the kids, or allowed them, to be baptized and go to church, but no doubt such positive spiritual influences came from elsewhere. ::shrug::

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #26 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:38:30 »
When one wants to be a spiritual leader and a politician at the same time, they must maintain an appeal to everyone. If or when they offend the majority, their role and influence as the latter becomes ineffective. Thus our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ never appealed to the political powers of His day, or tried to instruct them in their business which is in, of, and concerning the powers that be of this world. The papacy continually chooses the exact opposite course of action in relation to the same. Therefore, he must make statements pleasing to the majority in and of this world, not bible believing Christians.

Mt 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #27 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 07:12:59 »
Quote
I cant see any comparison at all between Joel and the pope, but I suspect that he said it for the child's sake. To tell a child whose father had died that he would be in hell would have been cruel.
Whether he actually believes that or not its hard to say.

Catholic doctrine accepts the idea of invincible ignorance, in which a person for no fault of his own, is unable to accept the reality of God.   Such people are not necessarily doomed to hell, in that view.   For a Catholic, it's impossible to say with certainty that any particular person is going to hell; only God knows what is in one's heart.

The Pope's reply may have been politically incorrect, but it was theologically sound, and entirely consistent for the vicar of the One who told his followers to emulate a Samaritan with compassion rather than a devout Jew who had no compassion.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,
« Last Edit: Thu May 03, 2018 - 07:22:01 by The Barbarian »

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #28 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 08:19:34 »
Catholic doctrine accepts the idea of invincible ignorance, in which a person for no fault of his own, is unable to accept the reality of God.   Such people are not necessarily doomed to hell, in that view.   For a Catholic, it's impossible to say with certainty that any particular person is going to hell; only God knows what is in one's heart.

The Pope's reply may have been politically incorrect, but it was theologically sound, and entirely consistent for the vicar of the One who told his followers to emulate a Samaritan with compassion rather than a devout Jew who had no compassion.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

I cannot agree that the Pope was "theologically sound".

You say "Catholic doctrine accepts the idea of invincible ignorance, in which a person for no fault of his own, is unable to accept the reality of God"

Short of being mentally handicapped, or one of those strange native tribes living in the jungles of South America it certainly is everyone
elses fault if they chose to not accept . To not believe is a choice because from the very moment we are born we are , if not prompted by our parents.. (and no longer schools).. we are surrounded by those who do believe. There is every opportunity to learn why they have their beliefs and then a conscious choice, to not believe, must be made.

So, you quote Romans as why the Pope was theologically sound.

I am going to quote Jesus.... THE MAN HIMSELF SAID......

John 14:6 (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Which Trumps Romans any day of the week.

You have to believe in both Jesus and God.

I certainly would not put my eternity in the hands of a mere mortal man .

Especially one who does not believe what Jesus said....

Offline RB

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Re: Pope Francis implies Atheist Went To Heaven After Death
« Reply #29 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 15:12:08 »
Catholic doctrine
Who cares what any sect's doctrine is, I for one do not, and God's word rejects all whose doctrine is against His testimony of the truth.
Quote from: The Barbarian Today at 07:12:59
The Pope's reply may have been politically incorrect, but it was theologically sound, and entirely consistent for the vicar of the One who told his followers to emulate a Samaritan with compassion rather than a devout Jew who had no compassion.
You take great pictures of beautiful things~which is a gift from God, maybe you should stay with that gift, for teaching the scriptures, understanding truth is not your gift, or calling~you have convinced me that..... you may be very sincere that I give you, but understanding biblical truth is not your calling~even though I KNOW you are highly intelligent, but understanding biblical truth is a gift that one MUST be given...and even more so in defending truth for it takes much more knowledge to defend what one sees and believes.

The Pope is not even close on being sound on any doctrine if so, pray tell me which one.   

 

     
anything