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Offline Reformer

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Postponement or Fulfillment?
« on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 21:11:10 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________________
 
Postponement or Fulfillment?

    FROM A FELLOW BELIEVER“He [Jesus] did offer the kingdom. But He was rejected, just as predicted in the Jewish Bible, and the kingdom was postponed.”
 
   The apostle Paul wrote, “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].
 
    As per the apostle Paul, Christ’s kingdom existed in the first century. Consequently, it was not postponed. The Colossae believers were citizens of it.
 
    Another thought is if our Lord postponed what He initially planned, a weak believer who is struggling for the right answers just might question His character and reliability. I think the best option is to go with Paul’s doctrinal agenda.

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Postponement or Fulfillment?
« on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 21:11:10 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 13:25:22 »
Agreed

Offline Reformer

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 14:04:01 »

Thank you, johntwayne.

Buff

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 14:04:01 »

Offline RB

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 01, 2021 - 04:43:38 »
Postponement or Fulfillment?
No postponement, neither has its fulfillment been fulfilled.
Quote
Daniel 7:13,14~I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Quote
Daniel 7:16-28~"I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart."
We are now living under the eight kingdom and final kindgom prophesied to come, which kingdom shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to destroy them (bad idea) but the KING shall come and destroy the final antichrist kingdom (which is basically the whole world of Mystery Babylon) and THEN shall the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of Christ and his saints for ever, even for ever and ever.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 01, 2021 - 04:45:59 by RB »

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 01, 2021 - 04:43:38 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 01, 2021 - 11:23:57 »
RB, there is no such thing as an 8th KINGDOM in Revelation.  There was an 8th KING, which was an individual PART of the Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17.  There is no confusing the words “kingdom” and “king”, because one word is in the feminine gender and the other is masculine gender in the Greek.

Because you refuse to consider the original language, RB, you are tripping over this difference.

Also, that Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:8 once “WAS” in existence before John was writing Revelation, but back then he said it presently “IS NOT” in existence.  Also, John said it was “ABOUT TO COME UP out of the abyss and INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO”   

No less than 19 translations catch this sense of the IMMINENT appearance and also the IMMINENT *DESTRUCTION* of that Scarlet Beast - in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  If that Scarlet Beast was *ABOUT TO BE* DESTROYED back THEN in John’s near future, then this Scarlet Beast is NOT a present threat for us almost 2,000 years later.   One does not even need to read Greek to understand a simple compound verb action of the Scarlet Beast both arising and being destroyed in the near future for John’s readers.

It would be similar to us saying something like “my wife is ABOUT TO GO to the hospital and have  surgery.”  Why would anyone think that the poor woman’s surgery was going to be delayed almost 2,000 years? 

And by the way, it was NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast that “wore out the saints” by making war on them.  It was the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its 10 crowned horns as 10 Roman emperors which had one of its crowned horns (Nero) allowed by God “to make war forty and two months” with the saints (from late AD 64 until just before Nero’s death in AD 68).  This particular “42 months” of persecution by the Sea Beast and the same “time, times, and a dividing of time” (3-1/2 years total) persecution of the saints by the little horn (Nero) of Daniel 7:25 is long past.  Though regular trials of the saints have and will persist throughout history. 

I agree with Reformer’s position that the kingdom was not postponed.  The kingdom’s single crown given to Christ manifested that glorious fact at Christ’s ascension on His resurrection day when His high priesthood on heaven’s mercy seat throne was established.  Any of the saints being IN CHRIST also share in that kingdom, because we are vicariously “seated in heavenly places in Christ”. 

Daniel’s promised phase of the saints possessing that kingdom was also mentioned by Paul.  In the afterlife, the saints would judge the world and also the angels, as Paul informed the saints in I Cor. 6:2-3 that they were going to do in the next life.  This was truly “taking possession of the (already existing) kingdom” when the saints were able to judge the very ones who had “made war on them” during their lifetime - both the demonic realm and their human persecutors. 

With the past destruction of the entire statue of Daniel and the establishment of the growing “stone kingdom” of Daniel 2:35, we are presently participating in that reign which will last forever, never again to be opposed by an eradicated demonic realm and a destroyed Satan who once had dominion over the empires and kingdoms of this world as he boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5. 

That stone kingdom was not postponed.  It was established long ago and persists today, in spite of the paltry plans of unregenerate men still in this world.

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 01, 2021 - 11:23:57 »



Offline RB

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 04:25:18 »
RB, there is no such thing as an 8th KINGDOM in Revelation.  There was an 8th KING, which was an individual PART of the Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17.  There is no confusing the words “kingdom” and “king”, because one word is in the feminine gender and the other is masculine gender in the Greek.

Because you refuse to consider the original language, RB, you are tripping over this difference.

Also, that Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:8 once “WAS” in existence before John was writing Revelation, but back then he said it presently “IS NOT” in existence.  Also, John said it was “ABOUT TO COME UP out of the abyss and INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO”   

No less than 19 translations catch this sense of the IMMINENT appearance and also the IMMINENT *DESTRUCTION* of that Scarlet Beast - in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  If that Scarlet Beast was *ABOUT TO BE* DESTROYED back THEN in John’s near future, then this Scarlet Beast is NOT a present threat for us almost 2,000 years later.   One does not even need to read Greek to understand a simple compound verb action of the Scarlet Beast both arising and being destroyed in the near future for John’s readers.

It would be similar to us saying something like “my wife is ABOUT TO GO to the hospital and have  surgery.”  Why would anyone think that the poor woman’s surgery was going to be delayed almost 2,000 years? 

And by the way, it was NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast that “wore out the saints” by making war on them.  It was the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its 10 crowned horns as 10 Roman emperors which had one of its crowned horns (Nero) allowed by God “to make war forty and two months” with the saints (from late AD 64 until just before Nero’s death in AD 68).  This particular “42 months” of persecution by the Sea Beast and the same “time, times, and a dividing of time” (3-1/2 years total) persecution of the saints by the little horn (Nero) of Daniel 7:25 is long past.  Though regular trials of the saints have and will persist throughout history. 

I agree with Reformer’s position that the kingdom was not postponed.  The kingdom’s single crown given to Christ manifested that glorious fact at Christ’s ascension on His resurrection day when His high priesthood on heaven’s mercy seat throne was established.  Any of the saints being IN CHRIST also share in that kingdom, because we are vicariously “seated in heavenly places in Christ”. 

Daniel’s promised phase of the saints possessing that kingdom was also mentioned by Paul.  In the afterlife, the saints would judge the world and also the angels, as Paul informed the saints in I Cor. 6:2-3 that they were going to do in the next life.  This was truly “taking possession of the (already existing) kingdom” when the saints were able to judge the very ones who had “made war on them” during their lifetime - both the demonic realm and their human persecutors. 

With the past destruction of the entire statue of Daniel and the establishment of the growing “stone kingdom” of Daniel 2:35, we are presently participating in that reign which will last forever, never again to be opposed by an eradicated demonic realm and a destroyed Satan who once had dominion over the empires and kingdoms of this world as he boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5. 

That stone kingdom was not postponed.  It was established long ago and persists today, in spite of the paltry plans of unregenerate men still in this world.


I will respond later~just marking it so I will not forget. I will only say this for now~where there is a king, there IS a kingdom in the sense which God calls it a king/kingdom.

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 04:25:18 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 07:33:03 »
Morning RB,

You said, “Where there is a king, there IS a kingdom...”

Of course that’s true, but it doesn’t mean there are 8 KINGDOMS.  ALL of the 8 individual kings came from the source of the SINGLE Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast kingdom, however, not from 8 different kingdoms.  This is not just wrangling over minutiae.  That SINGLE Scarlet Beast kingdom with its heads, horns, and even the woman riding it - ALL was *ABOUT TO* GO INTO DESTRUCTION in John’s near future, according to Rev. 17:8 in those 19 various translations.

The reason this “mystery Babylon” woman was ALSO DESTROYED long ago is because her destruction was caused by the Scarlet Beast’s 10 horns, who in Rev. 17:16 would “hate the whore and shall make her desolate, and naked , and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire” - all BEFORE the Scarlet Beast itself was destroyed in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  Mystery Babylon can’t still be around if the Scarlet Beast’s horns that would cause her death are no longer around.

When you ignore that one phrase “*ABOUT TO* ARISE OUT OF THE ABYSS AND GO INTO DESTRUCTION”, (as those 19 various versions of scripture freely acknowledge), your whole paradigm gets messed up, RB.  But since you aren’t finding it in your single KJV, you deny that the Scarlet Beast and the whore riding it is all ancient history by now. 

This is where you and I part company, because I am willing to consider the original languages which were available to the KJV translators, and you are not willing to consider them.  That’s sad.  It’s like a student refusing to pass to the next grade level because it would disturb their comfort zone. You’re not too old a dog to learn something new, brother Red.  You have said this yourself even.  It is not a sin to become familiar with another language.  It doesn’t even need to become a prideful thing either. 
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 07:37:51 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 11:37:01 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________________
 
Postponement or Fulfillment?

    FROM A FELLOW BELIEVER“He [Jesus] did offer the kingdom. But He was rejected, just as predicted in the Jewish Bible, and the kingdom was postponed.”
 
   The apostle Paul wrote, “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].
 
    As per the apostle Paul, Christ’s kingdom existed in the first century. Consequently, it was not postponed. The Colossae believers were citizens of it.
 
    Another thought is if our Lord postponed what He initially planned, a weak believer who is struggling for the right answers just might question His character and reliability. I think the best option is to go with Paul’s doctrinal agenda.
I agree.  Jesus was exalted high above all, and placed on the throne, per the New Testament.

Let's go a little further... He's still on the throne.  He IS still, presently, the king over this world. 

He is not absent.  He is here, among His people.

I do not understand how so many can acknowledge Jesus as The King, and in the next breath intimate that He is completely ineffectual as a king.

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Offline Reformer

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 12:52:40 »
RB:

    Read it again. “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].

    When this life and time have consummated, we will be transferred to the eternal kingdom in heaven.

    The eternal kingdom is simply an extension of our current kingdom [reign]. Jesus is now King over His kingdom. He will reign until "all things are subjected to Him" [God], at which time "the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him...that God may be all in all" [I Cor. 15:25-28].

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 13:00:23 by Reformer »

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Feb 02, 2021 - 12:52:40 »

Offline RB

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 04:10:33 »
Read it again. “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].
Bluff, As far as us living now in the flesh and our knowledge of who we are and what is in store for us, that statement is true.
Quote
   When this life and time have consummated, we will be transferred to the eternal kingdom in heaven.
That statement is incorrect, and you will not find support in the scriptures for saying that.

While I agree that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord~but that's ALL we know UNTIL the last day and the resurrection of our earthly bodies. At which point, judgment will take place, and then the wicked will face the second death in the lake of fire, which will be when THIS PRESENT world is destroyed BY FIRE and in its place, a NEW EARTH AND HEAVEN will be created which will be our FINAL dwelling place world WITHOUT end.

This NEW earth and heaven WILL BE THE FINAL KINGDOM that the saints shall inherit, where Jesus will have dominion over all and SO SHALL WE be kings and priests unto our God.
Quote from:  Reformer on: Yesterday at 12:52:40
The eternal kingdom is simply an extension of our current kingdom [reign]. Jesus is now King over His kingdom. He will reign until "all things are subjected to Him" [God], at which time "the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him...that God may be all in all" [I Cor. 15:25-28].
Much more than that~it is an earnest of what shall be, but far from its final reality~it is even hard to compare the two for there is not much to compare other than believing what shall be according to all the promises of God. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 05:32:32 »
The apostle Paul wrote, “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13]
The verb there is has delivered.  That is not present tense; rather it is past tense. Actually in the Greek I believe it was formally in the aorist tense, meaning past and continuing into the present and future.  I don't think that really changes your argument, so I am not sure why you even raised the tense as an issue.

Also I think that kingdom, when used as the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God, is not a place; rather it is a state of being.  Christians are now in the kingdom of heaven, but not in heaven.


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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 07:56:59 »
Christians are now in the kingdom of heaven, but not in heaven.

Ephesians 2:6
 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Sounds to me like we are already seated in heaven. 

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 08:36:13 »
Ephesians 2:6
 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Sounds to me like we are already seated in heaven.
If you are saying that we are living the promised life in heaven, then I think you do not understand what is being promised.  This is not heaven.  But I will leave it there.

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 03, 2021 - 09:29:24 »
If you are saying that we are living the promised life in heaven, then I think you do not understand what is being promised.  This is not heaven.  But I will leave it there.
No -- I am saying we are simultaneously here in this life on earth and seated in heaven.

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Feb 04, 2021 - 20:38:02 »

Jarrod:

    "I agree.  Jesus was exalted high above all, and placed on the throne, per the New Testament.

    "Let's go a little further... He's still on the throne. He IS still, presently, the king over this world. He is not absent. He is here, among His people.

    "I do not understand how so many can acknowledge Jesus as The King, and in the next breath intimate that He is completely ineffectual as a king."


    Well said, Jarrod. If I might add, He now sits on “David’s throne” [Acts 2:30] in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints. Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers.

    As I noted earlier, Paul affirms the saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves” [Col. 1:13]. As saints, we are in God’s kingdom today, just as the Colossians were. Again, the eternal kingdom in heaven is an extension our of current kingdom.

    As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! He is now King, and has been for over 2,000 years.

    The Jews in Jesus’ day failed to envision His reign as spiritual because they were looking for an earthly kingdom with all of the political trimmings that accompany earthly kingdoms. Today’s earthly enthusiasts are making the same mistake. They’re looking for a “glorified kingdom” with all of the “glorified trimmings” that accompany “glorified kingdoms.”

    In the meantime, they fail to understand that such a kingdom or reign has existed since the very moment Jesus was “exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” [Acts 2:33]. His kingdom is not earthly, palpable, and tangible now or in the future. It is spiritual in that its King reigns from heaven and in the hearts of His subjects.

Buff



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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 09:32:28 »
RB, there is no such thing as an 8th KINGDOM in Revelation.  There was an 8th KING, which was an individual PART of the Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17.  There is no confusing the words “kingdom” and “king”, because one word is in the feminine gender and the other is masculine gender in the Greek.

Because you refuse to consider the original language, RB, you are tripping over this difference.

Also, that Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:8 once “WAS” in existence before John was writing Revelation, but back then he said it presently “IS NOT” in existence.  Also, John said it was “ABOUT TO COME UP out of the abyss and INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO”   

No less than 19 translations catch this sense of the IMMINENT appearance and also the IMMINENT *DESTRUCTION* of that Scarlet Beast - in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  If that Scarlet Beast was *ABOUT TO BE* DESTROYED back THEN in John’s near future, then this Scarlet Beast is NOT a present threat for us almost 2,000 years later.   One does not even need to read Greek to understand a simple compound verb action of the Scarlet Beast both arising and being destroyed in the near future for John’s readers.

It would be similar to us saying something like “my wife is ABOUT TO GO to the hospital and have  surgery.”  Why would anyone think that the poor woman’s surgery was going to be delayed almost 2,000 years? 

And by the way, it was NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast that “wore out the saints” by making war on them.  It was the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its 10 crowned horns as 10 Roman emperors which had one of its crowned horns (Nero) allowed by God “to make war forty and two months” with the saints (from late AD 64 until just before Nero’s death in AD 68).  This particular “42 months” of persecution by the Sea Beast and the same “time, times, and a dividing of time” (3-1/2 years total) persecution of the saints by the little horn (Nero) of Daniel 7:25 is long past.  Though regular trials of the saints have and will persist throughout history. 

I agree with Reformer’s position that the kingdom was not postponed.  The kingdom’s single crown given to Christ manifested that glorious fact at Christ’s ascension on His resurrection day when His high priesthood on heaven’s mercy seat throne was established.  Any of the saints being IN CHRIST also share in that kingdom, because we are vicariously “seated in heavenly places in Christ”. 

Daniel’s promised phase of the saints possessing that kingdom was also mentioned by Paul.  In the afterlife, the saints would judge the world and also the angels, as Paul informed the saints in I Cor. 6:2-3 that they were going to do in the next life.  This was truly “taking possession of the (already existing) kingdom” when the saints were able to judge the very ones who had “made war on them” during their lifetime - both the demonic realm and their human persecutors. 

With the past destruction of the entire statue of Daniel and the establishment of the growing “stone kingdom” of Daniel 2:35, we are presently participating in that reign which will last forever, never again to be opposed by an eradicated demonic realm and a destroyed Satan who once had dominion over the empires and kingdoms of this world as he boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5. 

That stone kingdom was not postponed.  It was established long ago and persists today, in spite of the paltry plans of unregenerate men still in this world.

+1 manna for this reply.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 09:39:02 »
Jarrod:

    "I agree.  Jesus was exalted high above all, and placed on the throne, per the New Testament.

    "Let's go a little further... He's still on the throne. He IS still, presently, the king over this world. He is not absent. He is here, among His people.

    "I do not understand how so many can acknowledge Jesus as The King, and in the next breath intimate that He is completely ineffectual as a king."


    Well said, Jarrod. If I might add, He now sits on “David’s throne” [Acts 2:30] in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints. Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers.

    As I noted earlier, Paul affirms the saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves” [Col. 1:13]. As saints, we are in God’s kingdom today, just as the Colossians were. Again, the eternal kingdom in heaven is an extension our of current kingdom.

    As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! He is now King, and has been for over 2,000 years.

    The Jews in Jesus’ day failed to envision His reign as spiritual because they were looking for an earthly kingdom with all of the political trimmings that accompany earthly kingdoms. Today’s earthly enthusiasts are making the same mistake. They’re looking for a “glorified kingdom” with all of the “glorified trimmings” that accompany “glorified kingdoms.”

    In the meantime, they fail to understand that such a kingdom or reign has existed since the very moment Jesus was “exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” [Acts 2:33]. His kingdom is not earthly, palpable, and tangible now or in the future. It is spiritual in that its King reigns from heaven and in the hearts of His subjects.

Buff

+1 manna for this reply

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Postponement or Fulfillment?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Feb 05, 2021 - 09:41:17 »
The verb there is has delivered.  That is not present tense; rather it is past tense. Actually in the Greek I believe it was formally in the aorist tense, meaning past and continuing into the present and future.  I don't think that really changes your argument, so I am not sure why you even raised the tense as an issue.

Also I think that kingdom, when used as the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God, is not a place; rather it is a state of being.  Christians are now in the kingdom of heaven, but not in heaven.

The kingdom refers to the reign of Christ. So the state of being of which you speak is that of subjects, which we are. +1 manna for your reply.

 

     
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