Christian Forums and Message Board

Postponement or Fulfillment?

Daniel 7:13,14~I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:16-28~"I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart."

RB, there is no such thing as an 8th KINGDOM in Revelation.  There was an 8th KING, which was an individual PART of the Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17.  There is no confusing the words “kingdom” and “king”, because one word is in the feminine gender and the other is masculine gender in the Greek.

Because you refuse to consider the original language, RB, you are tripping over this difference.

Also, that Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:8 once “WAS” in existence before John was writing Revelation, but back then he said it presently “IS NOT” in existence.  Also, John said it was “ABOUT TO COME UP out of the abyss and INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO”   

No less than 19 translations catch this sense of the IMMINENT appearance and also the IMMINENT *DESTRUCTION* of that Scarlet Beast - in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  If that Scarlet Beast was *ABOUT TO BE* DESTROYED back THEN in John’s near future, then this Scarlet Beast is NOT a present threat for us almost 2,000 years later.   One does not even need to read Greek to understand a simple compound verb action of the Scarlet Beast both arising and being destroyed in the near future for John’s readers.

It would be similar to us saying something like “my wife is ABOUT TO GO to the hospital and have  surgery.”  Why would anyone think that the poor woman’s surgery was going to be delayed almost 2,000 years? 

And by the way, it was NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast that “wore out the saints” by making war on them.  It was the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its 10 crowned horns as 10 Roman emperors which had one of its crowned horns (Nero) allowed by God “to make war forty and two months” with the saints (from late AD 64 until just before Nero’s death in AD 68).  This particular “42 months” of persecution by the Sea Beast and the same “time, times, and a dividing of time” (3-1/2 years total) persecution of the saints by the little horn (Nero) of Daniel 7:25 is long past.  Though regular trials of the saints have and will persist throughout history. 

I agree with Reformer’s position that the kingdom was not postponed.  The kingdom’s single crown given to Christ manifested that glorious fact at Christ’s ascension on His resurrection day when His high priesthood on heaven’s mercy seat throne was established.  Any of the saints being IN CHRIST also share in that kingdom, because we are vicariously “seated in heavenly places in Christ”. 

Daniel’s promised phase of the saints possessing that kingdom was also mentioned by Paul.  In the afterlife, the saints would judge the world and also the angels, as Paul informed the saints in I Cor. 6:2-3 that they were going to do in the next life.  This was truly “taking possession of the (already existing) kingdom” when the saints were able to judge the very ones who had “made war on them” during their lifetime - both the demonic realm and their human persecutors. 

With the past destruction of the entire statue of Daniel and the establishment of the growing “stone kingdom” of Daniel 2:35, we are presently participating in that reign which will last forever, never again to be opposed by an eradicated demonic realm and a destroyed Satan who once had dominion over the empires and kingdoms of this world as he boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5. 

That stone kingdom was not postponed.  It was established long ago and persists today, in spite of the paltry plans of unregenerate men still in this world.

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________________
 
Postponement or Fulfillment?

    FROM A FELLOW BELIEVER— “He [Jesus] did offer the kingdom. But He was rejected, just as predicted in the Jewish Bible, and the kingdom was postponed.”
 
   The apostle Paul wrote, “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].
 
    As per the apostle Paul, Christ’s kingdom existed in the first century. Consequently, it was not postponed. The Colossae believers were citizens of it.
 
    Another thought is if our Lord postponed what He initially planned, a weak believer who is struggling for the right answers just might question His character and reliability. I think the best option is to go with Paul’s doctrinal agenda.

Read it again. “He has [present tense] delivered us from the domain [kingdom] of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...” [Col.1:13].

   When this life and time have consummated, we will be transferred to the eternal kingdom in heaven.

The eternal kingdom is simply an extension of our current kingdom [reign]. Jesus is now King over His kingdom. He will reign until "all things are subjected to Him" [God], at which time "the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him...that God may be all in all" [I Cor. 15:25-28].

Christians are now in the kingdom of heaven, but not in heaven.

If you are saying that we are living the promised life in heaven, then I think you do not understand what is being promised.  This is not heaven.  But I will leave it there.

RB, there is no such thing as an 8th KINGDOM in Revelation.  There was an 8th KING, which was an individual PART of the Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17.  There is no confusing the words “kingdom” and “king”, because one word is in the feminine gender and the other is masculine gender in the Greek.

Because you refuse to consider the original language, RB, you are tripping over this difference.

Also, that Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:8 once “WAS” in existence before John was writing Revelation, but back then he said it presently “IS NOT” in existence.  Also, John said it was “ABOUT TO COME UP out of the abyss and INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO”   

No less than 19 translations catch this sense of the IMMINENT appearance and also the IMMINENT *DESTRUCTION* of that Scarlet Beast - in JOHN’S DAYS - not ours.  If that Scarlet Beast was *ABOUT TO BE* DESTROYED back THEN in John’s near future, then this Scarlet Beast is NOT a present threat for us almost 2,000 years later.   One does not even need to read Greek to understand a simple compound verb action of the Scarlet Beast both arising and being destroyed in the near future for John’s readers.

It would be similar to us saying something like “my wife is ABOUT TO GO to the hospital and have  surgery.”  Why would anyone think that the poor woman’s surgery was going to be delayed almost 2,000 years? 

And by the way, it was NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast that “wore out the saints” by making war on them.  It was the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its 10 crowned horns as 10 Roman emperors which had one of its crowned horns (Nero) allowed by God “to make war forty and two months” with the saints (from late AD 64 until just before Nero’s death in AD 68).  This particular “42 months” of persecution by the Sea Beast and the same “time, times, and a dividing of time” (3-1/2 years total) persecution of the saints by the little horn (Nero) of Daniel 7:25 is long past.  Though regular trials of the saints have and will persist throughout history. 

I agree with Reformer’s position that the kingdom was not postponed.  The kingdom’s single crown given to Christ manifested that glorious fact at Christ’s ascension on His resurrection day when His high priesthood on heaven’s mercy seat throne was established.  Any of the saints being IN CHRIST also share in that kingdom, because we are vicariously “seated in heavenly places in Christ”. 

Daniel’s promised phase of the saints possessing that kingdom was also mentioned by Paul.  In the afterlife, the saints would judge the world and also the angels, as Paul informed the saints in I Cor. 6:2-3 that they were going to do in the next life.  This was truly “taking possession of the (already existing) kingdom” when the saints were able to judge the very ones who had “made war on them” during their lifetime - both the demonic realm and their human persecutors. 

With the past destruction of the entire statue of Daniel and the establishment of the growing “stone kingdom” of Daniel 2:35, we are presently participating in that reign which will last forever, never again to be opposed by an eradicated demonic realm and a destroyed Satan who once had dominion over the empires and kingdoms of this world as he boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5. 

That stone kingdom was not postponed.  It was established long ago and persists today, in spite of the paltry plans of unregenerate men still in this world.

The verb there is has delivered.  That is not present tense; rather it is past tense. Actually in the Greek I believe it was formally in the aorist tense, meaning past and continuing into the present and future.  I don't think that really changes your argument, so I am not sure why you even raised the tense as an issue.

Also I think that kingdom, when used as the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God, is not a place; rather it is a state of being.  Christians are now in the kingdom of heaven, but not in heaven.