Author Topic: Power of the BLOOD!  (Read 14621 times)

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #945 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:30:42 »
Do you not know that the Gospel still has not been heard by every tongue and every tribe?  Your view of scripture must jive with reality.  If it does not, you are misusing scripture.  Read in context, this concerns Israel.
Then again we must get out of our comfort chair and get the gospel spread to them as we were called to do. If you know where these are then by all means take the gospel to them.  If you do not know where these are then it is speculation on your part.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #945 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:30:42 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #946 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:38:51 »
Then again we must get out of our comfort chair and get the gospel spread to them as we were called to do. If you know where these are then by all means take the gospel to them.  If you do not know where these are then it is speculation on your part.

It isn't speculation in the past, and it isn't now.  I currently help support a missionary that is in Papua New Guinea and there are tribes there that do not know of Jesus.  These men and women are learning new languages and translating God's Word into these languages to tell them of Jesus.

If you think this is speculation, you really have no clue.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #947 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:45:23 »
TC I will let you think that Gods gospel was not for all if you strongly believe that it is your prerogative I will leave you with your thoughts.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #947 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:45:23 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #948 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:49:23 »
We do see things differently.  I from you and I from RB.  You at one extreme siding with man's will, and RB at the other end with sovereignty. 

Salvation, however, is a portion of the topic of Romans 9.  Not all of physical Israel were to be part of the promise of Israel.  God's sovereignty is the purpose of this section.  Before the birth of the twins, before any action of good or bad, God chose Jacob.

God will have mercy and compassion on those He chooses.  It is not our place to question God if He molds some people for destruction to show His Glory.  He even prepared beforehand the vessels of His Glory via mercy.  Romans 9 closes out with Israel stumbling over works, but Gentiles attaining righteousness through faith.

I believe man has a will and can choose faith.  I also believe that God has sovereignty and has chosen beforehand.  These two ideas appear to contradict each other.  The best way to agree with scripture is to agree with both, and not get swept away in trying to get them to agree in our minds.


The following post I made earlier in this thread is how I reconcile God's sovereignty and man's freewill with regards to our salvation:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/power-of-the-blood!/msg1055150033/#msg1055150033

In His sovereignty God chose on what basis He will or will not save, He decided the parameters and worked out the whole plan. We each have the freewill to accept His will or not in this regard.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #948 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:49:23 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #949 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:52:03 »
TC I will let you think that Gods gospel was not for all if you strongly believe that it is your prerogative I will leave you with your thoughts.

I will leave you with the FACT that God's gospel has not made it to every tribe and tongue and you can stick your head in the sand, and pretend you are right.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #949 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 11:52:03 »



Offline yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #950 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 12:04:25 »
I will leave you with the FACT that God's gospel has not made it to every tribe and tongue and you can stick your head in the sand, and pretend you are right.
Thank you for that you are so kind May God bless you dearly my friend.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #950 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 12:04:25 »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #951 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 15:36:22 »
I will leave you with the FACT that God's gospel has not made it to every tribe and tongue and you can stick your head in the sand, and pretend you are right.
It is a truth of the scriptures that the gospel has not been preached to most of the civilized world before Christ came~much more is it true that it has NOT been preached to the barbarians even NOW at this present time. The only witness many have had is creation itself
Quote from: David
Psalms 19:1-4~"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,"
This within itself can not be the means of one's regeneration, but could very well be the means of them living as righteous as they can IF God FIRST regenerates them by his Spirit, which he has no doubt some of them~for this is the ONLY way any evangelistic efforts would be of any benefit whatsoever! 
Quote from: Paul
Romans 10:13,14~"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
The ONLY way one can have FAITH is..... FIRST, they must be quickened to life, so the power can be there to believe; secondly, THEY MUST HEAR the word of God, for that is the ONLY medium through which faith comes to a person born of God.

I could spend many posts writing on this subject, but time will not suffer me to do so.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 15:39:20 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #952 on: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 15:55:28 »
If some men never hear the gospel it is because we did not do what we were called to do. If you know where these some men are then we should take the gospel to them otherwise this might just be a straw man argument.
Yogi, God determines where HE DESIRES the gospel to go, and to what degree of light to give them where it does go.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 16:6,7~"Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not."
When the white horse left JERUSALEM and went to the Gentiles, it turned NORTHWEST away from INDIA and CHINA!  throughout the Roman Empire~and, we SEE EVEN TODAY the results of that!
Quote from: John
Revelation 6:1~And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
The White Horse represented the GOSPEL leaving Jerusalem under the preaching of the apostles and it went forth unto the Gentiles nations TURNING the world UPSIDE DOWN...Conquering as it went forth!
Quote from: Luke
Acts 17:6~"And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;"
Praise be unto God!
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 15:58:47 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #953 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 03:57:39 »
The following post I made earlier in this thread is how I reconcile God's sovereignty and man's freewill with regards to our salvation:
I have heard men trying to convince themselves and others that God's sovereignty and man's so-called free will can be reconciled, and they give illustrations, etc.~ but they are only deceiving themselves more than they are already deceived, and do the same to others, who willingly listen to them instead of trusting only the word of God.

Outside of Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve are the only two that had a will free from SIN and the bondage of the Devil, ALL others must FIRST be set free from Satan's power over them who took the human race into bondage at the disobedience of Adam. This is so simple to see, it truly amazes me that men are allowed free reins in preaching that men have a FREE WILL whereas they can do spiritual acts that are pleasing unto God and can be used to cause them to be accepted and justified by doing those certain spiritual  conditions such as hearing, seeing, believing, obeying, repenting, etc. etc. Paul calls this a strong delusion~see 2nd Thessalonians 2:11
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Luke 4:17-21~"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Of course many preach that they are NOT in bondage to Satan, just as the Pharisees taught.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:32-36~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. .
How blind can one be! Israel was in bondage in Egypt under Pharoah~BOTH a type of the world/sin and Satan! Yet, they boasted that they had a FREE WILL and took glory in thinking that they had one and spoke against Christ for preaching that they DID NOT have what they boasted of having. Sound familiar?  Of course, it does.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Matthew 12:24-29~"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
Jesus Christ came into this world where Satan is the god of and spoiled his goods that he had taken when he deceived our first parents into being disobedience to God who had created them.  He took them captives and they became his servants doing his evil works. When Jesus was lifted up on the cross the prince of this world was cast out and his works were destroyed that he had over God's elect~the power of depravity and his power over their wills were SET FREE by the sacrifice of the Son of God.
Quote from: John
1st John 3:7,8~"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
The only people who have a FREE WILL are those whom Christ has set free from the power of the devil when one is given spiritual life by the power of God, for Christ's sake. All others are under bondage to the devil and will remain there until God's power sets them free, or else they will never be free. There are no halfway houses in God's word for sinners. Either one is under bondage, or a person has been set free by the power of God who is stronger than Satan. Again, no halfway houses for people considering changing masters waiting on them to excise their so-called free will~ this gift was secured by Christ for his people through his obedience for them.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 04:22:45 by RB »

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #953 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 03:57:39 »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #954 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 05:02:54 »
I believe God is a just God and no respecter of person and treats all men equal. The gospel call was sent to All man and he that believes and submits to the call will be saved.
Yogi, you, or I believing something does not make it God's testimony of the truth. The scriptures must support out teaching and it will if we have the truth.

First, God is not a respecter of person meaning that he does not respect the rich over the poor, the wise over the unwise, certain nationality over another one, yet AMONG these people, God without question, shows respect, just as we do, if the truth is told.

God does not treat all men equal. Some are born intelligent, some are not; some are born with beauty, some are not; some are born with all body parts, some are not; some are born into poor families, some into extremely rich family~God makes that choice for us; some are born short, tall, etc.~all these choices we had not one thing to do with. Some are born to great parents some are born to wicked parents, we had no say in the matter, now did we? All men are NOT created equal regardless of what our forefather said.  Some are born with certain gifts, some people have none and must depend on the goodness and kindness of others. On and on we could go.

The gospel call has not been sent to all men, especially so in the same manner and with men having the same gifts in teaching the gospel. We have in measure dealt with this above.
Quote from: Yogi bear to Texas Conservative Reply #936 on: Yesterday at 10:49:18
Yes I agree He does not owe but He loves ALL man and gave his son for All man He is a just God and in so being He gives ALL man the choice to accept the gospel or reject it. It is Mans choice as to whether he will accept Gods grace. God calls ALL to repentance not just a chosen few. HE does not owe it to any but LOVES ALL so HE calls ALL.
God does not love all without "exception", but does love all men without distinction...Jews AND Gentiles. There are some men that he hates.
Quote from: THE WISE MAN
Proverbs 6:16-19~"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
God is holy (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8). He hates sin (Proverbs 8:13; Hebrews 1:9). He is too holy to love sin or sinners (Job 15:5; Hab 1:13). He hates sinners (Read and consider: Psalms 5:4-6; 11:4-7; 139:21-22). In spite of effeminate objections, God hates sin and sinners. The Sunday school lie that God hates sin but loves the sinner is false. God hates sinners, and here is a list of some of them in Proverbs 6.

He will tell the wicked in the last day that He never knew them ~He never loved them (Matthew 7:23; 13:47-50). He will tell them to get lost, and rightly so! He loves and accepts only those He made holy through Jesus Christ ~His beloved elect (Ephesians 1:3-6; Romans 9:15).

Men bark against this holy doctrine, but let God be true! Does He also love Satan? They do not fret about the devil, because their profane and vain babbling is only selfish pride and love for themselves. They are too arrogant to submit to a holy and sovereign God.
Quote from: Yogi bear to Texas Conservative Reply #936 on: Yesterday at 10:49:18
Do you agree He calls All or just a select few?
That's easy to answer~a select few per 1st Corinthians 1 Listen to Paul:
Quote from: THE TRUTH TO YOUR ANSWER
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Did that answer your question? I KNOW that it did, will you believe it, it would not be wise to disagree with it being SO PLAIN. But, vain men will still reject it in favor of their precious doctrine that they have come to embraced above the clear testimony of the scriptures.

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #955 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 06:41:29 »
Well, as usual you are being dishonest again. I don't think I am right, I think "EVERY Word of God is right". That is why you are so angry all the time. It isn't me who is exposing your falsehood, it is the very God you claim to serve. You can take your hatred out on me, It's an honor. But it is His Word which pricks you, not me.
Well, it's hard to follow your reasoning most of the time, and here is a classic example. Your statement makes very little sense. Let me say that I hate no man this comes from your misguided perception thinking that just because I come hard after your corrupt use of God's word you take this to mean that I hate you as a person, that's so far from being correct. You need to learn not to be offended at my strong rebuke of your corruption of God's word in using your false gospel that exalts sinful man above the obedience of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. Also, trust me when I say that you have never given a strong post using the scriptures properly that pricked my spirit, and before God who is my witness, I lie not.
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
I have often wondered about your instruction for the "Natural man". If a natural man is any man who is living in transgression to God's Commandments, then why continue being a Natural man?
  First, I have never given any instructions concerning the natural man, or man living in the flesh unregenerated. It would be foolish to do so.
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
Rom. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Are we not to sacrifice our carnal mind to God? To "circumcise the foreskins of our heart"?

Did Jesus not say that "ANYONE" who come to Him must "deny themselves"?

Isn't that what the "sacrifices" of the OT was all about? To take our most treasured possessions, our thoughts, our ways, our pride, our selfishness, and sacrifice it to God as a free will offering? Is this not what repentance is?

So then if the Natural Man can not please God, then don't be a Natural man. Deny this man, crucify this man.

No Red, I don't mock God's word, I live by it. I mock your religion.
First, no problem with me IF you have grounds of mocking any false teachings of mine~that would be perfectly fine with me, for any false teaching needs to be mocked just as Elijah did to the worshippers of Baal.
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Are we not to sacrifice our carnal mind to God?
I find it very odd that you are so blind as to use these scriptures to prove your point! That's called self-deception as I have mentioned to you before. Did you read those scriptures before posting them?
Quote
Romans 8:7,8~Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul made it very clear that the natural man is at enmity against God, and it is NOT subject to the law of God~ neither indeed can be Yet you said:
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
So then if the Natural Man can not please God, then don't be a Natural man. Deny this man, crucify this man.
Do you know just how spiritually ignorant that statement is? I do not believe you do, which makes my work so much harder to convince you of the errors of your way. So, if the natural man is at enmity against God, as PAul clearly said~then you come back and say:
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
So then if the Natural Man can not please God, then don't be a Natural man. Deny this man, crucify this man.
AS THOUGH man can do this by his OWN POWER apart from God FIRST giving him the power to do so!  How blind can one be!  I only trust that others can see how serious error as I do.
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
No Red, I don't mock God's word, I live by it. I mock your religion.
Sir, you need to consider your own use of God's word, before attempting to mock others, for you have been put to shame on your use of God's word, EVEN IF you still do not know this to be true, IT IS TRUE you have just shame yourself before all who are able to discern what people have written in defense of their doctrine~ Pitiful indeed! 
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
Are we not to sacrifice our carnal mind to God? To "circumcise the foreskins of our heart"?

Did Jesus not say that "ANYONE" who come to Him must "deny themselves"?

Isn't that what the "sacrifices" of the OT was all about? To take our most treasured possessions, our thoughts, our ways, our pride, our selfishness, and sacrifice it to God as a free will offering? Is this not what repentance is?
This is true ONCE we are born of God, then yes, indeed we have the power to hear, repent, obey and bring every thought and work under the obedience to Jesus Christ, BUT, not in order to be born again, and BEFORE we have the Spirit of God IN US, for it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do so before then, per Romans 8:7,8.
Quote from: GB  Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (ALL) Whosoever will come after me, (Jew/Gentile) let him deny himself, (First) and take up his cross, and follow me.

You preach we can forgo this part Red.
That I have never taught, you are again using a perfect strawman argument and fighting HIM instead of what I have actually said~ Now, WHO is truly being dishonest?  We will let others judge for themselves.
Quote from: GB Reply #909 on: Sun Oct 20, 2019 - 09:33:46
That we just wait for God to pick us from some secret, invisible lottery, based on some unknown judgments of His, then gives them Spirit of Truth regardless of their works. But God doesn't teach this. God says to trust Him first, to do what He instructs first.
Mock on, but you are mocking at the truth, NOT ME. The difference between your gospel and the one that Paul taught us is the TRUE difference between WORKS and GRACE. Your words in the quote box leave no question as to you believing in WORKS before one is quickened to life by the Spirit of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ, by God's grace ALONE and not on OUR OBEDIENCE/works.

You went on to say:
Quote
It is exactly because I DONT PONDER on my Words, but on the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, which Jesus said were HIS Spirit, that I understand that I play a part in my own salvation. My part is to "Deny my old self, take up my Cross, and Follow Him". He has provided His Blood, now all I have to do is trust Him enough to follow His instructions regarding it.
You can trust in your works if you like and it very clear that you do like it and trusting that your works will get you eternal life in the world to come, BUT, I can assure you that you will be disappointed.

Enough said....RB 

« Last Edit: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 06:45:15 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #956 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:03:49 »
I have heard men trying to convince themselves and others that God's sovereignty and man's so-called free will can be reconciled, and they give illustrations, etc.~ but they are only deceiving themselves more than they are already deceived, and do the same to others, who willingly listen to them instead of trusting only the word of God.
The ones who are truly deceived on this point are those of the Reformed Theology who produce a twisted and mangled definition and meaning of God's sovereignty.  The very interesting aspect of it all is that it isn't even a biblical argument one way or the other.  Rather it is a theoretical or a logical problem.  The issue is bound up in the question of whether or not God is able to maintain absolute control without exercising total causation. The Reformed Theology says no, but that is by their definition not by any biblical mandate.  A secondary issue in all of this is the Reformed Theology misguided declaration is that the only way that God can posses absolute foreknowledge is if He determines everything absolutely.  Again, this is by their definition of terms and not by any biblical assertion.  And they are wrong in both cases.   
Quote from: RB
Outside of Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve are the only two that had a will free from SIN and the bondage of the Devil, ALL others must FIRST be set free from Satan's power over them who took the human race into bondage at the disobedience of Adam.
Of course this isn't every stated in the Bible and it isn't true.  You and Reformed Theology claim that man sins because he is under the bondage of the Devil.  Yet Adam and Eve who you claim were not under such bondage sinned. There is a serious logical fallacy in all of this.

You referenced 2 Thessalonians 2:11 in support of your false premise against FREE WILL: 2Th 2:11  Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.... But of course you ignored what Paul said was the reason God did that.  God did that, according to Paul, because  "..... they refused to love the truth and so be saved" (2Th 2:10)  According to Reformed Theology it is God that caused them to not love the truth; according to you He did that by not FIRST setting them free from Satan's power over them.  Again a logical, and theological, fallacy asserting His sovereignty and absolute control and causation in all things yet holding man responsible for God's own decision to not First setting them free from absolute bondage to Satan. Reformed Theology states that man is, by God's own decision and decree,  without the ability to choose right from wrong and then states that it is man's fault if he does wrong.  The absolute nonsense of that is simply ignored by Reformed Theology.  And it is more than just nonsense.  It is heresy.

The main thing to be noted here is that God has determined and created man’s free will in such a way that the exercise of that will is not determined. Man’s freedom, not his free acts, is determined. But still, this is part of God’s plan. This is the way He planned it, decreed it, created it. Man’s free acts are included in God’s decree, but are not determined by it. God’s decree is all-inclusive, but not all-determinative.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #957 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:11:37 »
All men are NOT created equal regardless of what our forefather said.  Some are born with certain gifts, some people have none and must depend on the goodness and kindness of others. On and on we could go.
It is bad enough that you are a Calvinist and do not understand God's word very well, now you are becoming a Democrat in not understanding what our forefathers meant in setting down the Constitution of the United States.

Offline Alan

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #958 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:16:16 »
Then again we must get out of our comfort chair and get the gospel spread to them as we were called to do. If you know where these are then by all means take the gospel to them.  If you do not know where these are then it is speculation on your part.


There is a big part of the great commission that leaves one to wonder with no clear answers in scripture. The empathetic me would like to believe that God did not harshly judge those that had no chance of ever hearing the good news, literally millions had died in many remote regions of the world (including this region that we live in) prior to the discovery of these regions by developing nations. Of course those are my hopes rather than my beliefs, I don't think any of us can draw a clear conclusion from scripture since those instances seem to be unclear in scripture.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #959 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:36:31 »
There is a big part of the great commission that leaves one to wonder with no clear answers in scripture. The empathetic me would like to believe that God did not harshly judge those that had no chance of ever hearing the good news, literally millions had died in many remote regions of the world (including this region that we live in) prior to the discovery of these regions by developing nations. Of course those are my hopes rather than my beliefs, I don't think any of us can draw a clear conclusion from scripture since those instances seem to be unclear in scripture.
It seems clear, to me at least, according to Romans, chapter one, that God will judge those who have not heard the gospel message.  But that judgment will based upon something other than the gospel message.  It also seems clear, to me at least, that it was by God's design and intent that we are left to wonder with no clear answers.  We could probably spend hours contemplating why that might be, but none of that would be definitive.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #960 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:43:47 »
Given the scriptures above, it seems Jesus didn't come to earth as God, but as a Flesh and Blood Man. While it is true that God can not sin, it is also true that God knows everything, but Jesus had to "Grow" in wisdom. It is true That God does not suffer, but Jesus suffered horribly. That God doesn't fear, but Jesus sweat drops of Blood in fear. That God can't die, but Jesus was most certainly died and God raised Him from the dead.
GB, ONE MORE TIME~Jesus Christ was FULLY MAN and FULLY GOD in one complex body! You only desire to see ONE side of him and reject his deity as God manifest in the "likeness" of sinful flesh. These two natures were ever kept separated in him and NEVER operated with each other. THIS TRUTH you reject. I would love to debate this subject with you in the proper thread designated for this very subject.
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it seems Jesus didn't come to earth as God
He came as both! Let us debate this subject. I'll find the thread for this and post it here later.
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http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/is-jesus-really-all-mighty-god/
Here's one of many of them.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:46:25 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #961 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 09:14:40 »
GB, ONE MORE TIME~Jesus Christ was FULLY MAN and FULLY GOD in one complex body! You only desire to see ONE side of him and reject his deity as God manifest in the "likeness" of sinful flesh. These two natures were ever kept separated in him and NEVER operated with each other. THIS TRUTH you reject. I would love to debate this subject with you in the proper thread designated for this very subject. He came as both! Let us debate this subject. I'll find the thread for this and post it here later.  Here's one of many of them.

Yes Red, in your religion, your Jesus cheated. He was the first man to live a sinless life from His youth, and He received great Honor and Glory from His Father. But He wasn't a man like the Bible teaches, like all the Scriptures I posted that you continue to ignore. He was All Mighty God with the all the Powers of Almighty God.

So when the going got a little tough, when the temptations that ensnare other men came to Him, He just kicked in a little Supernatural God power that no other human has ever possessed, and by this He was able to overcome. And so He didn't resist sin as all other men, He didn't overcome sin's as other men do, He didn't rule over His own Flesh as He instructs other men to do. He didn't "Live by Every Word of God" as He instructed other men to do.

No, your Jesus didn't come to earth as a man in "ALL" things as His Brethren.

Your Jesus overcame sin because He wasn't a man like you or me at all. He was Superman.

Of course you would promote this Jesus. In your religion God created instructions so egregious, so burdensome, so many in number that it is impossible to keep them, then your god killed tens of thousands of people from breaking these same Laws He created impossible for men to obey.

So when this unjust God, with His unfair and unjust commandments came to earth, He couldn't come as a lowly man as He promised in Scriptures, like unto His Brethren in all things, tempted in all way as His brethren, because it is impossible, in your religion, for a mere man to obey God's instructions. He had to hedge His Bet, He had to give Himself an Edge no other human had.

In your religion He wasn't a man like Adam at all. If Adam had been given the powers you preach the Christ gave Himself as a man, Adam would also have overcame sin. Heck, there isn't one of us, who if born God and man, wouldn't accomplish the same thing Jesus did.

When you take all the lipstick off your sermons, this is the Jesus you, the Catholic Church, and "many" who come in Christ's Name preach.

But if you consider what the Bible teaches about this man, EVERY WORD. You find a different Christ.

A Christ who became a man in all ways as me. A man who "fought" against sin in His own Flesh like other men. A man that "learned obedience" like other men are to learn obedience.

I know how popular this image of the Christ religious man has created is, with his perfect profile, and long flowing hair, and super powers no other human has ever possessed.

And you are free to worship what ever image you please. But what I am pointing out is what the Bible actually teaches about the Prophesied Messiah.

Like I said and you also ignored, For God to live without sin is nothing, what else could be expected. But for a man to dedicate His Life to God, and God's People, "unto death", now there is a Great and Glorious victory.

Don't dishonor Him by implying He cheated in the "Work" God gave Him to finish.










Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #962 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 10:13:27 »
It seems clear, to me at least, according to Romans, chapter one, that God will judge those who have not heard the gospel message.  But that judgment will based upon something other than the gospel message.  It also seems clear, to me at least, that it was by God's design and intent that we are left to wonder with no clear answers.  We could probably spend hours contemplating why that might be, but none of that would be definitive.

Romans 1 says no such thing that folks will be judged separate from the Gospel.  All deserve hell.  The fact that any will escape it by Grace is remarkable.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #963 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 11:49:58 »
Romans 1 says no such thing that folks will be judged separate from the Gospel.  All deserve hell.  The fact that any will escape it by Grace is remarkable.
Now that is some good Calvinist doctrine.  I didn't realize that you had fallen that far down.  ::smile::

Offline Alan

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #964 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 12:18:00 »
So when the going got a little tough, when the temptations that ensnare other men came to Him, He just kicked in a little Supernatural God power that no other human has ever possessed, and by this He was able to overcome. And so He didn't resist sin as all other men, He didn't overcome sin's as other men do, He didn't rule over His own Flesh as He instructs other men to do. He didn't "Live by Every Word of God" as He instructed other men to do.


That is incorrect, Jesus was burdened by temptation just as every man was. He did not use his "super powers" to overcome the short comings of humanity, we witnessed on many occasions Jesus displaying His own humanity, much the same as you or I would. In your version of Christ's humanity, He would not have suffered 40 days in the desert, He would not have petitioned to His Father to save Him, and He likely would not have bore the cross. Why would He anyway, when as you believe He could simply snap these things into existence.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #965 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 12:28:08 »
Now that is some good Calvinist doctrine.  I didn't realize that you had fallen that far down.  ::smile::

You can make up whatever you want but Romans 1 does not say what you say it does.

Use names and sidestep to cover up your ineptitude.

Further, your view is contradicted by Romans 10.

« Last Edit: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 12:31:52 by Texas Conservative »

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #966 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 13:15:29 »
 author=Alan link=topic=104645.msg1055150243#msg1055150243 date=1571764680]
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So when the going got a little tough, when the temptations that ensnare other men came to Him, He just kicked in a little Supernatural God power that no other human has ever possessed, and by this He was able to overcome. And so He didn't resist sin as all other men, He didn't overcome sin's as other men do, He didn't rule over His own Flesh as He instructs other men to do. He didn't "Live by Every Word of God" as He instructed other men to do.

You know this is not my belief, but a summary in my words of what most modern religions imply in their teaching. I think you understood the context, but I wanted to make sure.

Quote
That is incorrect, Jesus was burdened by temptation just as every man was. He did not use his "super powers" to overcome the short comings of humanity, we witnessed on many occasions Jesus displaying His own humanity, much the same as you or I would. In your version of Christ's humanity, He would not have suffered 40 days in the desert, He would not have petitioned to His Father to save Him, and He likely would not have bore the cross. Why would He anyway, when as you believe He could simply snap these things into existence.

Again, this post represents the implications of Red's and "many" who come in Christ's Name preaching. It is not mine.

Personally I cringe when I hear religious men implying by their teaching that the man Jesus overcame to become the "Unblemished Lamb" because He was God and God can't sin.

It diminishes His HUGE Effort and Love for His People, and furthers the implication that God is unjust and unfair in that Adam is forever cursed for choosing to disobey, but Jesus is forever blessed and received a Great honor for being a sinless God.

There are a few doctrines popular in modern religions that are taught, but are not supported by the Bible, that drive me crazy. Here are 3.

1. Jesus overcame sin because He was God and couldn't sin.

2. The Pharisees were trying to Earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws.

3. That the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5 is God and Moses, and not the Priests who led God's People astray.

There are many more, but these 3 are built into the foundation of much of today's religion. Since they are false, everything built on them is false also.

A hard pill for many to swallow.




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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #967 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 15:50:36 »
Again, this post represents the implications of Red's and "many" who come in Christ's Name preaching. It is not mine.
GB, you obviously cannot follow other's post very well. Here is verbatim what I said, that you conveniently passed over without even commenting on.  I said:
Quote from: RB on: Today at 07:43:47
GB, ONE MORE TIME~Jesus Christ was FULLY MAN and FULLY GOD in one complex body! You only desire to see ONE side of him and reject his deity as God manifest in the "likeness" of sinful flesh. These two natures were ever kept separated in him and NEVER operated with each other. THIS TRUTH you reject. I would love to debate this subject with you in the proper thread designated for this very subject.
So do not misrepresent what I teach. Jesus lived a perfect life of obedience as the Son of MAN, not as God manifested in the flesh, though HE WAS! If your mind cannot comprehend this truth, then do not accuse me of saying anything than what I have said.
Quote from: GB Reply #966 on: Today at 13:15:29
Personally I cringe when I hear religious men implying by their teaching that the man Jesus overcame to become the "Unblemished Lamb" because He was God and God can't sin.
I DO NOT teach that and truly have not heard anyone here say that maybe they have, I cannot recall if they have, at least not the core of those that post here regularly. But, the greater error here is yours that teaches that God was NOT manifested in the flesh in the person of the Son of God, that is your doctrine. So, let me ask you a pointed question: "Was Jesus BOTH God and man in one complex body"? Yes, or No would be appreciated.
Quote from: GB Reply #966 on: Today at 13:15:29
1. Jesus overcame sin because He was God and couldn't sin.

2. The Pharisees were trying to Earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws.

3. That the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5 is God and Moses, and not the Priests who led God's People astray.
1. Jesus lived in perfect obedience to the law of God for God's elect as the MAN Christ Jesus! What he did, was put to their account as though they did it! God's elect was chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world and was members of his flesh, bones, etc.~the two were ONE in God's holy sight! 

2. The Pharisees were trying to Earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws~true, even though they also made God's commandment void by their commandments, BOTH were true. Matthew 15; Philippians 3, etc. They made void the grace of God by seeking to be justified by their own works, just as you do, sir. Paul knew better than you or I, listen to him:
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 3:1-9~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
The sin of the Pharisees was that they had CONFIDENCE in the flesh, and did not seek justification by grace ALONE.

I'm stopping and coming back to this one point since I'm rushing myself due to a meeting coming shortly. RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #968 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 03:54:02 »
3. That the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5 is God and Moses, and not the Priests who led God's People astray.
I'm going to address this point and then go back and say much more on point #2 the most critical of all your hard pills to swallow that has YOUR name all over the pill.
Quote from: GB
3. That the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5 is God and Moses, and not the Priests who led God's People astray.
Again, like many of your posts, you present your side in a very deceptive way using logical reasoning that truly never addresses the issues.

Of course, God and Moses never had lead Israel astray, and that truly had never been a point of disagreement, only in your mind, not by others teaching this. I have never heard anyone teaching this.

It is true that them of old, where leaders of the Jews, that sat in "Moses Chair" and that loved to be called Rabbi, Rabbi, etc. that did not know the spritual side of the law of God, they only were concerned with the letter of it, but only then if it served their purpose, but mainly they did not understand that the law condemned the very motion of sin in their hearts as to be guilty as doing the act itself the two were as one as far as God's holy, good and spiritual law condemned as the sin itself. Jesus gave the sermon on the mount to show just how good, holy, and spiritual the commandments of God is and how his commandments condemned the very motion of sin working in our members/flesh as to what CONSTITUTES the very definition of murder, hate, lust, etc.

Now, GB, understanding the spiritual side of God's commandments and knowing that the law CONDEMNED the very motion of sin, and pronounced condemnation on such sin, and ONLY accepts PERFECTION, how do you come to believe that you as a fallen man can please God and be accepted by him by your works of obedience, when it is clear that NO MAN can render such obedience to them, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and the law MUST condemn to death them that sin? Such a man NEEDS a surety to stand in his place and pay the penalty for being a transgressor of the law of God.

Jesus Christ was the surety before God's law for his people. Hebrews goes into depth concerning this very subject, which we do not have the time now to do so.

I'll deal with the next point in a separate post.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #969 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 06:52:41 »
Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 21, 2019 - 06:45:43
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 05:46:00
Thank you 4wd for the clarification response.

I would like to ask you, what do you say is "the free gift" that Paul was talking about in Romans 5:15-18? In verse 16, Paul says the "the free gift" came from many offenses. What do you say concerning that?
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The negating of any effect of Adam's disobedience upon mankind was not the only thing that resulted from Jesus' obedience; there was also the "gift of righteousness [which] will reign in life" (v.17).

What I am interested to know from you is with regards verse 16, as to what is "the free gift" that Paul is referring to, which Paul said came from many offenses. This "free gift" is mentioned by Paul in verses 15,16,18.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
I answered you.

You did reply, but really haven't told us what "the free gift" is that Paul was referring to in the passage. So, if you'll be kind enough to tell us and share to us, what "the free gift" is, that Paul says came from many offenses.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 08:10:30 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #970 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 07:23:02 »
It seems clear, to me at least, according to Romans, chapter one, that God will judge those who have not heard the gospel message.  But that judgment will based upon something other than the gospel message.  It also seems clear, to me at least, that it was by God's design and intent that we are left to wonder with no clear answers.  We could probably spend hours contemplating why that might be, but none of that would be definitive.
We are not left to wonder 4WD, for there is a clear answer. And it is definite. For the answer is in scriptures.

Yes, judgement awaits those who are not in Christ, not only those who have not heard the gospel, but even those who rejected it. For they all certainly would be judged at the appointed day on which God will judge the world in righteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Judgment came to all men, resulting to what? Nothing but condemnation.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

And this is how it will be:

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law


But thanks be to God, for giving us His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, for giving salvation. For condemnation is no more to those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

There is no longer judgment resulting to condemnation for those who are in Christ. But all the rest, because of Adam's offense, they are under judgment ~ condemnation.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 11:41:31 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #971 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 10:27:14 »
Paul says in Romans 5:12-19 that we are born righteous.

In my reading of Romans 5:12-19, I read nothing which says that we were born righteous nor unrighteous.

At present, I am convinced now that we are born innocent.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 12:45:54 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #972 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 14:00:54 »
In my reading of Romans 5:12-19, I read nothing which says that we were born righteous nor unrighteous.

At present, I am convinced now that we are born innocent.
My brother Michael, ALL men are born SINNERS.
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 5:12~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
"Nevertheless"~ That is, though it is a truth that there is no sin where there is no law, and that where there is no law transgressed there is no death, yet we see that death reigned from Adam to Moses, as well as from Moses to the present time. The conclusion from this is self-evident, (except with 4WD and others) and therefore Paul leaves his readers to draw it~namely, that the human race have always been under a law, and have universally been transgressors.

"death reigned from Adam to Moses"~Paul reduced Jews and Gentiles to one common father and death~Adam, not Abraham, not Moses.

As a side note I will mention that I'm not heretical Dispensationalists of the Scofield variety, but we do see only three dispensations quite clearly: the patriarchs from Adam to Moses in this verse, Moses to John the Baptist with the nation of Israel, and the gospel kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 16:16; Hebrews 12:28-29) and then cometh the end.

Although the Law of Moses was not given for 9500 years, plus or minus~ men still suffered the penalty of death. Men were judged as sinners and condemned to death by Adam’s disobedience apart from their own.

"Even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression"~But it evidently applies to infants. No one will cordially receive this except the man who, like a little child, submits to the testimony of God. Indeed, no man can understand the grounds of this imputation, so as to be able perfectly to justify it on principles applicable to human life. It must always stand, not on our ability to see its justice, but on our belief that God speaks true, and that it is just, as the Judge of all the earth in all things does justly, whether we are able to see it or not.

The word even supposes that the persons referred to are but a portion of those generally included in the declaration of the preceding clauses. These cannot be such as received not a positive law, for all, from Adam to Moses, are such; but it will apply to infants. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, over all the human race, even over infants, who did not actually sin, but sinned in Adam.

"Who was a figure of him to come"~ This appears to have been suggested from the immediately preceding clause, and to imply that the persons referred to were sinners, or transgressors of law, just as the saved are righteous~ the former sinners in Adam, although they had not actually sinned as he did, just as the others are righteous in Christ, although not actually righteous like Him. Those who are saved fulfill the law just as the others break the law, namely, in their head or representative.

Since Adam’s sin is imputed to men, therefore Adam is the figure of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:6-8; 5:12). Adam is a figure of Jesus Christ according to the testimony of Scripture (Ist Corinthians 15:21-22,45-49). Jesus Christ had already come when Paul wrote, so he refers to his prophesied coming as past. Adam is still a figure today: Paul is still using him as a figure, and men are still sinners by him. The analogy between Adam and Christ is the role they fill in representing two groups of men.

It matters not one thing if all world rejects this truth it will forever stand as the truth of the word of God. Even if a person has never heard of Adam or Jesus Christ and dies not hearing, that truth still applies to them. Some will inherit eternal life that has never heard one gospel truth concerning Jesus Christ, some will die in their sins having never heard of Jesus Christ~THIS TRUTH taught by Paul is the only truth that preserves the truth of the true gospel of Jesus Christ~that the righteousness of God is given freely through Jesus Christ's perfect obedience, our obedience has not one thing to do with us inheriting eternal life. We have the right to life by being IN CHRIST from conception to his resurrection! There're so many scriptures that prove this truth.

My brother Michael, you need to reconsider your present understanding in light of this scripture and others as well that could be given if you need some more scriptures to consider.
Quote
In my reading of Romans 5:12-19, I read nothing which says that we were born righteous nor unrighteous.

At present, I am convinced now that we are born innocent.
If that were so, then one is born righteous and later becomes a sinner and UNTIL that point, that person would NOT and could not DIE~ for the wages of sin is DEATH...both physical and eternal.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 14:18:52 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #973 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 15:15:03 »
2. The Pharisees were trying to Earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws.......A hard pill for many to swallow.
Well, they thought that eternal life was earned by keeping the law, which is summed up in ten commandments. The reason why I reject this pill is that he has your name all over it, as well as ALL who seek eternal life by obeying what they consider commandments given to obey before one can know that they are on the road, the straight and narrow road that they believe that takes them into eternal life at the end of their journey.

See, you reject this observation that I just gave because of you laboring to use the law as a means of you obtaining the possibilty (with you men, it is ALWAYS a possibility of losing eternal life ONCE believing that you had it IF you ONLY continue obeying, etc. etc., as though by your works that will get you into life everlasting!) of being saved and one day receiving eternal life.

So, yes men have always from Cain to this present day~ you being an example thereof, believe that they can by their own works earn salvation, salvation in the fullest sense of receiving eternal life in the world to come. Even the great apostle Paul had this very mindset, before his conversion on the road to Damascus. Listen to his words:
Quote from: Paul's testimony
Philippians 3:1-9~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh Though I might also have confidence in the flesh]. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
I'm not going to leave these scriptures no time soon because they will prove that from Cain to the Pharisees to men like you, all have CONFIDENCE in their flesh and truly believe that God will accept them IF they do righteousness in obeying the letter of the law=works done by them in order to receive the gift of eternal life. 

How does one come to have confidence in the flesh? Well, like Paul did~"touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"....As far as touching the righteousness of the law, Paul was BLAMELESS! So let us look deeper into this and see what truly justifies a man before God~because Paul was blameless, YET A SINNER in need of Christ's righteousness.

As to the righteousness which is in the law~ There can be no doubt he means by this the entire righteousness of the law, for it was too meager a sense to understand it exclusively of the ceremonies. The meaning, therefore, is more general ~that Paul cultivated the integrity of life, such as might be required on the part of a man that was devoted to the law. To this, again, it is objected, that the righteousness of the law is perfect in the sight of God. For the sum of it is.... that men be fully devoted to God, and what beyond this can be desired for the attainment of perfection? I answer, that Paul speaks here of that righteousness which would satisfy the common opinion of mankind. For he separates the law from Christ. Now, what is the law without Christ but a dead letter? To make the matter plainer, we must see, that there are two righteousnesses of the law. The one is spiritual~perfect love to God, and our neighbors: it is contained in doctrine, and had never an existence in the life of any man except Christ. The other is literal ~such as appears in the view of men, while, in the meantime, hypocrisy reigns in the heart, and there is in the sight of God nothing but iniquity. Thus, the law has two aspects; the one has an eye to God, the other to men. Paul, then, was in the judgment of men holy, and free from all censure ~a rare commendation indeed, YET we can see how much Paul held his past life in esteem IN COMPARISON to what one has FREELY IMPARTED TO HIM BY THE GRACE OF GOD through Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness which Paul will show us as we keep reading~which we shall consider later. 

I'll come back and consider this more in detail, to prove that from Cain to the Pharisees, to this day, men have sought to be accepted by God by their own merits ABOVE seeking to be justified by CHRIST ALONE. One that seeks to be justified by Christ alone is saying that he is a sinner UNABLE to please God in his flesh.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:17~"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 03:11:01 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #974 on: Wed Oct 23, 2019 - 16:48:19 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=104645.msg1055150276#msg1055150276 date=1571861703]
Well, they thought that eternal was earned by keeping the law, which is summed up in ten commandments. The reason why I reject this pill is that he has your name all over it, as well as ALL who seek eternal life by obeying what they consider commandments given to obey before one can know that they are on the road, the straight and narrow road that they believe that takes them into eternal life at the end of their journey.

You are making my point Red. You preach they were trying to "Earn" Salvation by keeping God's Laws.

 But Jesus said they rejected much of God's Laws. The Prophets of Old said they Led the people astray because they rejected God's Laws and created their own. Stephen said they had God's Laws but didn't keep them. Paul said they taught things they "Ought not".

Zechariahs and Simeon, on the other hand, are examples given by the Christ of a person who really did Love God enough to obey Him.

Once again, I am forced to either believe God, or your voice, which is the "Other Voice". The same choice Eve was given. Do I listen to your very popular teaching followed by "Many" who come in Christ's Name? Or do I listen to the Christ who says the Pharisees taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men,  not God as you preach.

I choose the Christ, like Abel, Abraham, Zechariahs, and Simeon, while you choose to listen to and believe ancient Catholic Dogma regarding the reason the Pharisees were rejected but Zechariahs was not.

And like the Pharisees you are too prideful to even concede to this one point which is so easy to prove if one considers all that is written on the subject.

This is why I stay away from the "Other Voices" out there and stick to the Christ's even if others do not, and implore others to do the same.



Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #975 on: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 03:25:26 »
You are making my point Red. You preach they were trying to "Earn" Salvation by keeping God's Laws.
GB, you are not hearing what I'm saying and thereby, you certainly cannot hear the voices of the apostles and prophets from the scriptures! They sought salvation from the letter of God's law and many of them like Paul were blameless in the eyes of their fellowman, yet the TRUE purpose of the law was much more spiritual and deeper than they understood, and and could NOT know until the commandment was understood by a new man operating WITHIN THEM. Romans 7 prove this point that I'm saying, especially these scriptures:
Quote from: Paul when he was a blameless Pharisees in the EYES of OTHERS and HIMSELF
Romans 7:9-14~"For I was alive without the law once: (at least in HIS eyes he was~RB) but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (When he got converted to the truth~RB) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, (For those who could keep it perfectly in thought, word, and deed, which ONLY Christ could and did! ~RB) I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (And it DOES when one truly understands just how holy, good and spiritual the law of God is, and those  few who do understand SEEK their justification from the law's curses THROUGH CHRIST ALONE~RB) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Again, you are not hearing the scriptures, because of your golden calf that you have come to put your trust in has blinded your eyes to the only source of justification for any sinner to trust in~your golden calf is your own obedience obtaining and securing salvation by your continuous obedience that you think you can render that would be acceptable to God so as to allow you obtain eternal salvation in the world to come. But, I can assure you all that do so, will be disappointed~and will cried out........ "LORD, LORD, have we not done WONDERFUL WORKS in thy name, etc. etc." But he will say, depart from me, I NEVER KNEW you.

I hit the post button by mistake, so I must continue my thoughts in another post, which I shall do now.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 03:46:52 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #976 on: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 04:42:34 »
But Jesus said they rejected much of God's Laws. The Prophets of Old said they Led the people astray because they rejected God's Laws and created their own. Stephen said they had God's Laws but didn't keep them. Paul said they taught things they "Ought not".
Here's another point which you have missed the truth~yes, there always has been a certain group of an evil generation of men who have crept in among the people of God and totally reject most of what is written and have set up their own doctrines and teaching, and corrupt the true worship of God~yet also is true that even among those who SEEMLY have much more love and zeal for the truth have as well corrupted the truth by teaching justification by works, even though convincing them of this is almost an impossible task and is apart from the mighty power of God opening men's eyes to the truth of the gospel as God did to Paul~ by himself, a task Stephen could not do with his preaching. 

Now, that being said it is NOT so easy to separate these two groups of evil workers as Paul called them in Philippians three. One group is described for us in Romans 10:1-4; the other we see in John 8...Romans 10 are brethren that believe yet are not yet converted; John 8 are children of the devil whom he sowed among the true people of God. See and consider: Matthew 13:24-30..he that can receive this let him hear the word of God. GB, as of yet, you cannot see this truth.
Quote from: GB Reply #974 on: Yesterday at 16:48:19
Zechariahs and Simeon, on the other hand, are examples given by the Christ of a person who really did Love God enough to obey Him.
GB, this is true, but we only love God BECAUSE he first loved his people and called them out of darkness into his marvelous light, or, we would have NEVER loved him!
Quote from: John
1st John 4:10~"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Again:
Quote from: John
1st John 4:19~We love him, because he first loved us."
The two scriptures together PROVES that the only reason one loves God is that God first loved them in Christ before the foundation of the world, or NO ONE would have ever chosen to Love God on their own, NEVER, IMPOSSIBLE!
Quote from: GB  Reply #974 on: Yesterday at 16:48:19
Once again, I am forced to either believe God, or your voice, which is the "Other Voice". The same choice Eve was given. Do I listen to your very popular teaching followed by "Many" who come in Christ's Name? Or do I listen to the Christ who says the Pharisees taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men,  not God as you preach.
GB, you create so many logical fallacies to give your false doctrine some seemly support, but you are only deceiving yourself as I have said many times over to you. I have NEVER said that the Pharisees DID NOT TEACH doctrine and commandments of men, OF COURSE, they did, yet some among them ALSO trusted in the law as a means of salvation from sin and condemnation BOTH were true~ some of them like Paul and others without question lived a blameless life according as man can see and as to the outward letter of the law, yet they never had experienced the commandment coming to them IN POWER of the revelation of the Spirit upon their souls as Paul did from the Damascus road moving forward in his walk with Christ.
Quote from: GB Reply #974 on: Yesterday at 16:48:19
I choose the Christ, like Abel, Abraham, Zechariahs, and Simeon, while you choose to listen to and believe ancient Catholic Dogma regarding the reason the Pharisees were rejected but Zechariahs was not.
If you truly had the same spirit that these men had you would use these words:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:9~"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Paul was careful to correct his words to give the glory to God alone, you would be wise to do the same. Selah!
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 06:47:59 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #977 on: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 06:49:10 »
My brother Michael, ALL men are born SINNERS.
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 5:12~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
First of all, you posted Romans 5:14 not 5:12.  But that is no biggie.  But once again, you leave out that part  that presents the very point that Paul was making.  Why did sin spread to all men? 

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

There is nothing in Paul's words to say that all men are born sinners.  Sin entered the world through Adam.  But sin spread to all men because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned.  You continue to distort the word of God to suit your own false gospel.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #978 on: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 07:23:09 »
In my reading of Romans 5:12-19, I read nothing which says that we were born righteous nor unrighteous.

At present, I am convinced now that we are born innocent.
Michael, in verse 18 for example, what do you think Paul meant when he said,  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.."?  Who are the "all men" that Paul is speaking about.  And when in the life of all men was that condemnation applied.  I think you and most would affirm that refers to what is usually called "Original Sin", that is, sin imputed to every person at or before birth.  If you agree with that, then I have to ask who are the "all men" that Paul was referring to when he completed that sentence with "....so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." I say that refers again to every person at or before birth.  There is no legitimate exegesis that would permit changing the meaning of the phrase "all men".  The "all men" who received the "justification and life" from Jesus' one act of righteousness are precisely the same "all men" who would have received the "condemnation" from Adam's one trespass.  Therefore, it is apparent that Jesus' one act of righteousness negated and set aside Adam's one trespass for all men.

This continues and maintains the very point that Paul made earlier in verse 12 that ".... death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

That really is the point of the entire chapter.  It sets down the magnificent grace applied to man as a result of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. 

Offline GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #979 on: Thu Oct 24, 2019 - 10:40:41 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=104645.msg1055150296#msg1055150296 date=1571905526]
GB, you are not hearing what I'm saying and thereby, you certainly cannot hear the voices of the apostles and prophets from the scriptures! They sought salvation from the letter of God's law and many of them like Paul were blameless in the eyes of their fellowman,


The Greeks also had their gods and those who followed their religious traditions were also "Blameless" in the eyes of others who followed those same gods.

This is what I mean Red. The Scriptures are clear, but you must not accept them. For you to accept simply what Jesus and the Prophets and Apostles said about the Pharisees, would cause your whole religious to start crumbling and fall.

There are some absolute truths Red. One such absolute truth given us from the Bible is that the Pharisees despised the true God so much, that when He came to them as a man, they murdered Him. They had created their own god, their own religion, and were very zealous for this religion. Yes, they claimed to be "Ministers of Righteousness", much like you. They truly believed the falsehoods about God they were preaching, much like you.

But they were not obeying God. Noah repented and obeyed God. Zechariahs repented and turned to God, Abel gave the sacrifice of repentance with works worthy of such. Abraham repented and obeyed God. Simeon did as well.

And God's Word reflects God's attitude towards all these men.

But the Pharisees did not obey God. In your religion, they did. In their religion they did. But according to the Christ of the Bible, they did not.

Why you are so hell bent on defending this falsehood you preach, even after they have been exposed by God's Word? It is a fascinating phenomenon in religious men.

We see this same exact thing through out the Bible from Cain to the High Priest in Paul's time. For me it is the Spirit of God in action showing how powerful the "Other Voices" out there are, and more proof as to why God created escapes and His Armor to resist such influence.

Quote
yet the TRUE purpose of the law was much more spiritual and deeper than they understood, and and could NOT know until the commandment was understood by a new man operating WITHIN THEM. Romans 7 prove this point that I'm saying, especially these scriptures:

Maybe they didn't understand the Law because they rejected it. Zechariahs understood. Simeon understood. They knew Jesus when He came? What is the only written difference between Zechariahs, who you completely ignore, and the Pharisees? Of course you can't answer because that one answer exposes your entire religion.


Quote
Again, you are not hearing the scriptures, because of your golden calf that you have come to put your trust in has blinded your eyes to the only source of justification for any sinner to trust in~your golden calf is your own obedience obtaining and securing salvation by your continuous obedience that you think you can render that would be acceptable to God so as to allow you obtain eternal salvation in the world to come. But, I can assure you all that do so, will be disappointed~and will cried out........ "LORD, LORD, have we not done WONDERFUL WORKS in thy name, etc. etc." But he will say, depart from me, I NEVER KNEW you.

But Red, like the serpent, you purposely left off the most important part of that scripture. Here, let me finish it for you.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 Lawlessness Red. Their image of the Christ, in His long flowing hair and perfect profile, all the poor people they fed in Christ's Name, all the birthday cakes they built for Jesus on the "Feast of the Lord" they created means nothing.

Because they "Worked Lawlessness".

I know you can't be corrected by the Word of God because your master is your religion. But for those reading along, where is the evidence that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws to the letter?

Didn't Zechariahs apply the "Blood of the Lamb" (Life of Christ) to his life? Isn't this the reason He experienced the "Power of the Blood"? Can you even imagine how hard is was for him to live among men who claimed to serve God, believed they were serving God, but were actually serving satan. And yet Red teaches these children of satan, who murdered the Prophets and Apostles and even the Christ Himself, were trying to earn salvation by obeying God.

This is why it is written "Come out of her".