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Offline skeeter

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What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 02:07:07 »

This is why I don't believe Paul "erred" when he stopped partaking in the Pharisees religion, and started following the teaching of the Law and Prophets that Jesus promoted, which included observing His Feast's like Pentecost, Feast of Unleavened bread, etc., along with the Christ's Sabbaths.
what did Paul teach about the Sabbath?

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 14:33:27 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 02:07:07 »

Offline GB

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 07:28:03 »
what did Paul teach about the Sabbath?


Paul understood the danger of religious traditions of man. He warned about it over and over as did Jesus, and the Prophets before Him.


Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He was born into religions of the land that pushed doctrines that were not from God's Word, but from religious man. Jesus called this "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men". Paul fought against these man made traditions through out the New Testament. To follow these man made religions caused men to "Transgress God's Commandments". But these religious traditions had been taught as Law for centuries. The Levites who were supposed to follow and teach God's Laws had rejected them and were teaching, as Law, religious traditions of men.
 
Jesus exposed these "Commandments of Men" or "hand writing of ordinances" as Paul called them, and made a show of those who promoted them openly.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul goes on to comfort the Colossians by telling them not to let these religious men judge them in their obedience to God's Instructions. These instructions show God's Salvation plan to come which begins with Passover, it doesn't end there as the mainstream preachers of our time imply.


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Men who have not submitted to God's Righteousness will never understand men who have. Paul is telling them basically, don't listen to the "other voices" out there, like Eve did.

He rebukes them for considering the religious traditions of the land.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Paul is explaining that religious traditions (ordinances) of the land "look righteous" "but the body" (true church) is of the Christ.

This is why Paul promoted the observance of the Christ's Feasts.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my (The Christ's) feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

1 Cor. 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This is why God gave the Holy Spirit to those who rejected the religious traditions of the Land, and gathered together on Pentecost. As Peter teaches.

Acts. 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay (silence) them.

Today's mainstream religions also promote doctrines and traditions of men. They have created their own images of God in the likeness of men, and their own High Days or "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship of this image.

They teach that Paul rejected the Christ's Feasts and Sabbaths, but if a person studies it for themselves, they will find this is not true.




Offline RB

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Re: what did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 08:34:53 »
Paul understood the danger of religious traditions of man. He warned about it over and over as did Jesus, and the Prophets before Him.  Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. He was born into religions of the land that pushed doctrines that were not from God's Word, but from religious man. Jesus called this "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men".
Indeed Christ and his apostles after him warned us of men that labored to spoil saints through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of this world, and not after Jesus Christ.

GB, it seems to me that you perfectly described yourself  in your post. Let us consider Colossians 2 and see if you are guilty of doing just what Paul warned us of.
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 2:8-23~"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
You never answered Skeeter's question:
Quote from:  skeeter on: Today at 02:07:07
what did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
Paul in another place said:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:9-11~"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
You have said that NT Christians must observe the Sabbath, Pentecost, Feast days, etc.

Quote from: GB GB on: Fri Dec 13, 2019 - 08:19:41
But the Feast's and Sabbath's of the Christ is a different story. They were commands, not free will offerings. To reject this part of God's Commandment is sin according to the Scriptures that Paul claims belief in.
So, my question to you WHICH IS IT? Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 3:2~"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision."

Blinded professors rejected Paul's gospel of justification by Christ. These professed legalists would not leave their rite of circumcision in the Old Testament, where it was given, and where it belonged along with the Sabbath and Feast days (even though Christians under the NT fulfill these spiritually IN CHRIST). Much of Paul's ministry was against these heresies of another gospel. He even called for a church council of the apostles and elders to formally reject such heresies.

Paul despised these professed believers legalists, for they bewitched Gentile believers and perverted his gospel by requiring surgery for salvation, and a list of others works. He ridiculed false teachers holding on to circumcision as dogs, evil workers, and the concision! Body mutilators! The Holy Spirit thus contemptuously mocked the revered Jewish rite of circumcision as mere body mutilation. See Philippians 3~and its context.

There is no reason to pity apostates that corrupt the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sabbatarians are brothers of the concision! It is vain superstition to require of Christians a rite that belongs in the Old Testament. Therefore, we call foolish Gentiles requiring Sabbath observance after the cross, calendar idiots, for these Jewish legalists exalt a day of the week rather than the Person and reality intended by it.

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. Sunday, the Lord's Day, is a weekly privilege to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship. Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord's spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage.

Paul's greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, (JUST AS YOU DO BY REFUSING TO EAT CERTAIN MEATS, ETC.) and the Sabbath, . Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them and. These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel.

Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7 .... are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but the following arguments add much more, answer objections...........Later today~RB

Mr, Moderator, PLEASE move this to another thread so that Reformer's thread is not hijacked. Move the last four posts. RB
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 06:19:20 by RB »

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Re: what did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 08:34:53 »

Offline GB

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 11:31:31 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=105082.msg1055152911#msg1055152911 date=1576420493]

I know from experience that there is no real unbiased scriptural debate with you. You have your religion and you call anyone who doesn't bow down to it, dogs and other names. I understand you have no real choice, You are doing the will of the one who has snared you.

You preach the Pharisees were following and teaching God's Laws, but Jesus said they are were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men. You will not even consider His Word's over your own religion. The Pharisees did the exact same thing when Jesus pointed out their doctrines and traditions of men.

You preach that God's instructions are "Vain deceit", "Traditions of men", "rudiments of the world" and "Beggarly Elements". Of course you do, God teaches that the world hates Him and His instructions which you have demonstrated perfectly.

 I asked you once how it is that those folks who didn't know God, were following His Sabbaths and Holy Days which you preach are "Beggarly Elements". But you didn't answer.

We have been over these things over and over, but the following statement is perfect. It is the perfect representation of the foundation of your religion and why I hope I am never infected by it again, as I once was..

Quote
So, my question to you WHICH IS IT? Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both[/
u][/i]

Wow, that is perfect. Exactly what I have been shouting since I first heard your doctrines. In your religion, you can't be a Christian unless you disobey God's Instructions. This is the first and most effective deception.

Gen. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (You are already saved)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject the Commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

There it is again. Your religion in one sentence, a man can't be a Christian unless He rejects the Christ's definition of Holy and adopts the definition of ancient religions.

Paul lived the opposite of your religion. He honored and remembered the Christ's Sabbath's and Feasts and taught to "be fully persuaded in your mind" who sanctifies one day over another, and He told me not to let white washed walls judge me for honoring and obeying Him in them.

Paul teaches;

2 Tim.13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But you preach to the world that much of God's Holy Scriptures are "Vain deceit", "Rudiments of the world", "Traditions of men", "beggarly elements".

You call the Holy Days "Jewish Sabbaths", while the Christ Himself calls them "HIS Feasts" and Sabbaths of the Lord.

You call the Pharisees "legalists" implying that they followed the letter of God's Instructions.

But Jesus said they taught for doctrines the commandments of men.

You preach to the world that Jesus abolished HIS OWN Feasts and Sabbaths, but Jesus taught just the opposite.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So you and I are on totally different paths Red. My problem with the religion you further is that what you preach, and what the Christ and Paul teaches, are almost the opposite. Through your own philosophy you try and convince folks to follow the ancient religions traditions of the Catholic church, and not the instructions of the Christ which are inspired by God.

Paul was not in error for following the Commandments and instructions from God, nor was Jesus following useless Jewish Traditions when He obeyed His Father. He disobeyed the Pharisees religion, and your religion, but He was faithful to the inspired Word of God. I could also reject much of God's instructions as you preach, and I would receive all sorts of praise from you and others, but what good is praise from man, if I don't depart from iniquity.

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 11:31:31 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 14:05:05 »
GB is not a dog.  That is being mean to dogs.  He is a cat.

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 14:05:05 »



Offline skeeter

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 14:11:22 »

Paul understood the danger of religious traditions of man. He warned about it over and over as did Jesus, and the Prophets before Him.


Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He was born into religions of the land that pushed doctrines that were not from God's Word, but from religious man. Jesus called this "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men". Paul fought against these man made traditions through out the New Testament. To follow these man made religions caused men to "Transgress God's Commandments". But these religious traditions had been taught as Law for centuries. The Levites who were supposed to follow and teach God's Laws had rejected them and were teaching, as Law, religious traditions of men.
 
Jesus exposed these "Commandments of Men" or "hand writing of ordinances" as Paul called them, and made a show of those who promoted them openly.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul goes on to comfort the Colossians by telling them not to let these religious men judge them in their obedience to God's Instructions. These instructions show God's Salvation plan to come which begins with Passover, it doesn't end there as the mainstream preachers of our time imply.


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Men who have not submitted to God's Righteousness will never understand men who have. Paul is telling them basically, don't listen to the "other voices" out there, like Eve did.

He rebukes them for considering the religious traditions of the land.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Paul is explaining that religious traditions (ordinances) of the land "look righteous" "but the body" (true church) is of the Christ.

This is why Paul promoted the observance of the Christ's Feasts.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my (The Christ's) feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

1 Cor. 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This is why God gave the Holy Spirit to those who rejected the religious traditions of the Land, and gathered together on Pentecost. As Peter teaches.

Acts. 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay (silence) them.

Today's mainstream religions also promote doctrines and traditions of men. They have created their own images of God in the likeness of men, and their own High Days or "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship of this image.

They teach that Paul rejected the Christ's Feasts and Sabbaths, but if a person studies it for themselves, they will find this is not true.
your reply to my simple question is the reason I haven't been replying to many posts (by most anyone here).  they're a hot mess - all over the place and make no sense.

Did Paul teach in Lev?  if he didn't, why did you post verses from Lev?

what day is the Sabbath in scripture?

what man made religion are you bound to?


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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 14:11:22 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 04:23:07 »
what man made religion are you bound to?
It is called GBism.

Offline GB

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 07:56:35 »
I'm waiting on a moderator to move the last five or so post to a new thread so Reformer's thread is not hijacked by GB.

GB, I may make a post to you on HOW TO DEBATE using intellectually~honest tactics. All you use are one dishonest tactic after another, anyone reading your post can easily see this wicked dishonest tactic that you employ in every post that you make. You are saying that because I quoted Paul when he said:So, what do you have to say about Paul? and Jesus when he said: Are they too doing the will of the one who has snared them?

You imply by your religion that "Dogs" are those who believe we are to "do" as the Christ instructs. Neither Jesus, nor Paul taught this. They both called religious men who openly disobeyed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions, and taught others to do the same, dogs, vipers, children of the devil.

You have it backwards Red. Zechariahs wasn't a dog or viper, the Pharisees were.

Don't get me wrong Red, I am honored that you call me a dog and a heretic for believing Every Word of God. It's not your name calling that bothers me in the least. I would expect nothing less given the Word's of Jesus.

But I'm not going to allow you to hijack Reformers thread by changing the subject.

There are religious men since Cain who believed God's Instruction are unworthy of their honor and respect. But Paul was not this man.

Paul didn't obey God because He was somehow deceived, or in error or addicted to some worthless Jewish traditions. This is at the heart of this thread. It is not Paul that is in error, it was the Mainstream Preachers of his time and ours that are in error.

Many believe Paul was in error for following the Sabbaths of the Christ because they listen to religions which preach, as you do, that much of God's Laws are "Vain deceit", "Rudiments of the world", "Traditions of men" and "Beggarly Elements". Religions which teach that Commandments of God, and Ancient Pagan rituals are the same, and that we must reject both.

Religions which refuse to discern between Commandments of God, and religious traditions of men. Between what God created as Holy, Righteous and Clean, and what the religions of the world have deemed what is Holy, Righteous and clean.

Religions which preach that I can't be a Christian, and walk in the instructions the Christ foreordained that I should walk in them. That to be a Christian I must reject the Feasts of the Christ of the Bible, and follow their ancient religious traditions.

You still elected to deflect from the question I asked you, again. How is it Gentiles, who didn't know God, were following His Sabbaths and Holy Days that you call "Beggarly Elements"?

All men make errors, but obeying God isn't one them.




 





Offline GB

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 08:44:29 »
 author=skeeter link=topic=105082.msg1055152928#msg1055152928 date=1576440682]
Quote
your reply to my simple question is the reason I haven't been replying to many posts (by most anyone here).  they're a hot mess - all over the place and make no sense.

Did Paul teach in Lev?  if he didn't, why did you post verses from Lev?

Because Paul taught me to..

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And Again;

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The only Holy Scriptures available to Paul and Timothy was the Law and Prophets. This is simply a Biblical Fact. Here is how Paul felt about Leviticus.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (Mainstream preachers of his time) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Shall I not feel the same way?

So I study as Paul instructed so I won't be deceived by religious men who preach things that are not true.

Like "the Holy Days are Jewish traditions" or "Vain Deceit" or "Beggarly Elements" as "many" who come in Christ's Name preach. If a man is interested in the truth enough to follow Paul's instructions, they will discern these teachings as a falsehoods and risk ridicule and hatred by warning the brethren about them. Because the Christ, the Word of God Himself, said the Holy Days were "HIS FEASTS", not some religious tradition of man, or rudiments of the world as some preach.

Quote
what day is the Sabbath in scripture?

In Scripture this is the answer to your question.

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, (Not the Jews) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Matt. 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

So according to Scriptures, the 7th Day of the week is the Sabbath of the Christ of the Bible.

Quote
what man made religion are you bound to?

There is a Path created by the Christ, the creator of all things, that He and His Prophets of Old and His Apostles taught and walked. Jesus said there was only one way to enter this Path.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

WE all are born into religions of the land, just as Abraham.  And the Christ gave Abraham the same instructions He gave me in Mark 8.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee ( deny himself and Follow Him)

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

This is the Path I am speaking to. It is not a man made religion, with man made High Days or man made instructions, or man made images of God in likeness of man. It is a narrow path that "FEW" are on. It is this path that I "Strive to enter" as my Savior instructs.

I hope this answers your questions, please le me know.





« Last Edit: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 08:48:27 by GB »

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 08:44:29 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 14:34:22 »
Note: this thread has been split from "Did Paul Err?" as it seems to be an entirely different debate not related to the original point.  Continue as you were...

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 16:17:03 »
author=skeeter link=topic=105082.msg1055152928#msg1055152928 date=1576440682]
Because Paul taught me to..

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And Again;

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The only Holy Scriptures available to Paul and Timothy was the Law and Prophets. This is simply a Biblical Fact. Here is how Paul felt about Leviticus.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (Mainstream preachers of his time) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Shall I not feel the same way?

So I study as Paul instructed so I won't be deceived by religious men who preach things that are not true.

Like "the Holy Days are Jewish traditions" or "Vain Deceit" or "Beggarly Elements" as "many" who come in Christ's Name preach. If a man is interested in the truth enough to follow Paul's instructions, they will discern these teachings as a falsehoods and risk ridicule and hatred by warning the brethren about them. Because the Christ, the Word of God Himself, said the Holy Days were "HIS FEASTS", not some religious tradition of man, or rudiments of the world as some preach.

In Scripture this is the answer to your question.

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, (Not the Jews) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Matt. 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

So according to Scriptures, the 7th Day of the week is the Sabbath of the Christ of the Bible.

There is a Path created by the Christ, the creator of all things, that He and His Prophets of Old and His Apostles taught and walked. Jesus said there was only one way to enter this Path.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

WE all are born into religions of the land, just as Abraham.  And the Christ gave Abraham the same instructions He gave me in Mark 8.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee ( deny himself and Follow Him)

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

This is the Path I am speaking to. It is not a man made religion, with man made High Days or man made instructions, or man made images of God in likeness of man. It is a narrow path that "FEW" are on. It is this path that I "Strive to enter" as my Savior instructs.

I hope this answers your questions, please le me know.

You are on the wrong path.  You are a "foolish Galatian."  Your "narrow" path is an old path, a walk according to the Law.  Unfortunately, it is the wrong path.

Offline GB

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Re: Re: Did The Apostle Paul Err On Occasion?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 17:10:19 »
You are on the wrong path.  You are a "foolish Galatian."  Your "narrow" path is an old path, a walk according to the Law.  Unfortunately, it is the wrong path.

Jer. 16:16 Thus saith the LORD (The Word of God which became Flesh, the Christ), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

 But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

As it is to this day.

Offline RB

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 02:58:54 »
Note: this thread has been split from "Did Paul Err?" as it seems to be an entirely different debate not related to the original point.  Continue as you were...
Jarrod~THANK YOU very kindly for making this another thread. One may want to consider reading this thread concerning what Paul taught about the Sabbath~ http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-order-of-sequence-and-biblical-timeline/  Replies #15 and 28 recently posted
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 03:09:59 by RB »

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 04:26:57 »
You imply by your religion that "Dogs" are those who believe we are to "do" as the Christ instructs.
It is time for me to give you a short lesson concerning intellectually-honest debate, for you certainly have no understanding (it could very well be a heart problem, but I'll let God be the judge of that) what constitutes intellectually-honest debates, for your posts are a series of one dishonest tactic after another, after another, for there are no end to your dishonest tactics! I know that I do not stand alone in seeing this in every post that you make.

Have you forgotten the Royal law? Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. For the man who believes that we are under the law as a means of our final justification legally, it should behoove him to not constantly sin against this law of God in being so dishonest in your representation of your neighbour words. But, what do we expect from a pharisaical spirit who practices using the law of God to their own profit and convenient to serve and uplift their own self-righteousness?

GB, Lest I be accused of intellectually-dishonest debate myself, I hereby explain the difference. There are only two intellectually-honest debate tactics: 1. Pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts~2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic. That’s it. Simple! The dishonest list is much longer. We could go through your post and name each and everyone that you employ...... I use to think that you did this ignorantly, not so sure of that anymore. Some do it ignorantly, but once pointed out to them and they continue doing so, then it becomes evident that they no longer are in ignorance but do so with their eyes open and with the intent to discredit others good name and godly teachings, and to uplift themselves with their deceived heart convincing them that they are doing God a service.
Quote from: GB Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 07:56:35
You imply by your religion that "Dogs" are those who believe we are to "do" as the Christ instructs. Neither Jesus, nor Paul taught this.
This is a clear cut "Straw Man" logical fallacy that neither myself or anyone else has ever said, imply or even hinted at.

Dogs are those annoying barking men who are constantly desiring to include their works in the gospel of Jesus Christ as a means of inheriting eternal life and that sir would be you, whether or not you accept it~and it was the apostle Paul who under the inspiration of God who warns the faithful to BEWARE OF DOGS and he was not speaking of a four-legged animal, but men who taught the necessity of surgery (and other like doctrines) for salvation from sin and condemnation! Read Philippians three~your doctrine would fall totally under Paul's warning, not mine, for I believe JUST AS PAUL taught when he said:
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 3:9~"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Jesus Christ SECURED the saints right to eternal life by HIS FAITH, OBEDIENCE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS according to the will of God in the election of grace! By faith, we stand upon this glorious gospel truth and THIS FAITH of the saint was SECURED FOR US by Jesus Christ ALONE! Now, let us see who's the dog that Paul is warning us of!
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Exactly what I believe and teach. So, let us see who's the dog according to Paul, shall we?

Let me in a few words add to what Paul said in Galatians 2:20 and tie this into Colossians two for a clear understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and what he secured for God's elect.
Quote
Colossians 2:8-23~"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
I said above that we will consider these scriptures and by doing so, we shall clearly answer~ "What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?"

I'm coming back later today (the Lord willing) and do a verse by verse study of Colossians two.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 06:16:57 by RB »

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 06:58:49 »
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 2:9~"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
As Christians, we must maintain and proclaim the full deity of Christ. Jesus Christ was fully man~the Son of Man and fully God~regarless what men like GB reject and denies.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
Here is an important truth in studying the OT scriptures. Paul did not begin with the blessed truth without a reason as we shall see.

Jesus is Jehovah, and there cannot be any corruption or spoiling of this doctrine whatsoever!  He is not just the God Almighty of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob; He is Jehovah (Exodus 6:3)! He is not an inferior begotten god, as Origen believed and taught with his “eternal generation.” He is not the highest creature of God, as Arius believed and taught with “eternal generation.” He is not the prophet of Allah, inferior to Muhammed, which the Muslims want us to believe. He is not a god, distinct and inferior to the Mighty God, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses fantasize. He is not a begotten god, as the NWT of Russell’s Witnesses and NASV claim in John 1:18. He is not an eternally generated Son of God, which the Nicene Witnesses declare in their creed written by EOC/RCC.  He is not God of God and Light of Light, as the Nicene Witnesses perpetuate in their convents. Let all men (GB) denominations, religions, cults, and doctrine be tried by their testimony of Jesus Christ being the TRUE God and eternal life! Err here, and it will be proven to be the spirit of antichrist.
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 2:10~"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"
If indeed saints are complete IN CHRIST, then there is not one thing that we can do to add to that completeness~regardless of other voices saying otherwise.  Verses 10-15 define our salvation in Him and warn against anything be added to it. This is what the apostles did not want to be spoiled, which men want to steal away (Galatians 2:4). These are precious words indeed ~complete in Him. We do not need anything from any man, as though it can add to our completeness IN CHRIST. There is no system of religion needed to learn how to earn our acceptance and favor with God. There was nothing in the Old Testament to be carried over to complete or enhance salvation. Neither Greek philosophy nor the traditions of men could offer anything to improve salvation. Why is Christ’s Headship over principality and power introduced here? We are “complete in Him” by His victory over them (Romans 8:33-39; John 16:11; Hebrews 2:14; I John 3:8; Revelation 12:5-11).The accusing devil has been cast out of heaven, and nothing can separate us from God’s love! Jesus is the Head of all principality and power~ all the authority in the universe is being put under his feet. The devil, which held us captive, has been defeated (Luke 11:22; John 12:31; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26).

The source of all lies and heresies regarding the Son of God is a very defeated power (1:13). He is the head of all, do we need to fear anything or anyone? Our dear brother is Lord from heaven! So complete is our salvation and position in Him, no man can judge us with rules, days, months, years, etc. etc.!  (Colossians 2:16-17).

Later....RB
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 07:05:52 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 09:04:50 »
 author=RB link=topic=105134.msg1055153016#msg1055153016 date=1576578417]
Quote
It is time for me to give you a short lesson concerning intellectually-honest debate, for you certainly have no understanding (it could very well be a heart problem, but I'll let God be the judge of that) what constitutes intellectually-honest debates, for your posts are a series of one dishonest tactic after another, after another, for there are no end to your dishonest tactics! I know that I do not stand alone in seeing this in every post that you make.

I am only responding to your preaching Red.

I said;

Quote
"But the Feast's and Sabbath's of the Christ is a different story. They were commands, not free will offerings. To reject this part of God's Commandment is sin according to the Scriptures that Paul claims belief in."

Which is 100% Biblical Truth. To Transgress a Commandment from God is the very definition of sin.

Then you replied;

Quote
So, my question to you WHICH IS IT? Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both

Your statement here implies that I can't "keep the Sabbath" as the Christ commands, and be a Christian at the same time.

So your whole first paragraph is baloney Red. I addressed your statement exactly as you said it. If you didn't mean what you wrote, or made a mistake in the writing, just admit it and correct yourself.

It is deceitful to accuse others of dishonesty for simply assuming you believe what you write.


Quote
Have you forgotten the Royal law? Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. For the man who believes that we are under the law as a means of our final justification legally, it should behoove him to not constantly sin against this law of God in being so dishonest in your representation of your neighbour words. But, what do we expect from a pharisaical spirit who practices using the law of God to their own profit and convenient to serve and uplift their own self-righteousness?

Fascinating, you are doing to me exactly what you falsely accuse me of doing to you. This is called "Projection".

Quote
GB, Lest I be accused of intellectually-dishonest debate myself, I hereby explain the difference. There are only two intellectually-honest debate tactics: 1. Pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts~2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic. That’s it. Simple!

I think you have exalted yourself a little bit too high here Red. You are not the only person on the planet that gets to point out errors in opponents facts and logic. In an intellectually honest debate, there are at least 2 sides. You are eager push your religion on others, but have absolutely no interest in anything that doesn't somehow promote your religion.

For instance, you said a man can not be a "Sabbath Keeper" and a Christian. Implying that if I obey the Sabbath Commandments of the Christ, I can't be a Christian. I pointed out that the serpent convinced Eve of the exact same thing. I think you should retract that false statement, and then apologize to all those folks who Love God and Keep His Commandments.

You also preach that God's Laws are "Vain deceit", "Traditions of men", "Rudiments of the world" and "Beggarly Elements". These are deceptions, lies, falsehoods that Paul and Jesus teaches expressly against. Now I know from your posts that you are only regurgitating what some "Great Theologian" that you have faith in taught you. But what I am pointing out to you is that the Word's of the Bible expose this religious doctrine as man made, not from God.

In an attempt to get you to see this for your self, I asked you a question.

How is it that Gentiles, who don't know God, were following HIS Holy Sabbaths and HIS Holy Feast Days that you preach to the world are "Beggarly Elements"?

Each time I ask it, you find some subtle, cleaver way to deflect.

In an intellectually honest debate, you would answer this question.

But you still haven't even though I have asked several times. It isn't some Evil spirit in me that causes you to do these things.


Quote
The dishonest list is much longer. We could go through your post and name each and everyone that you employ...... I use to think that you did this ignorantly, not so sure of that anymore. Some do it ignorantly, but once pointed out to them and they continue doing so, then it becomes evident that they no longer are in ignorance but do so with their eyes open and with the intent to discredit others good name and godly teachings, and to uplift themselves with their deceived heart convincing them that they are doing God a service. This is a clear cut "Straw Man" logical fallacy that neither myself or anyone else has ever said, imply or even hinted at.

I'm only pointing out errors and omissions from your own words, your own preaching. I guess when you do this it's intellectually honest debate, when others do this same thing to you for the falsehood you promote, it's "to discredit others good name and godly teachings".

You won't even follow your own guidelines for honest debate. The Royal Law is a mirror, it seems maybe you are the one who refuses to look at it.

Quote
Dogs are those annoying barking men who are constantly desiring to include their works in the gospel of Jesus Christ as a means of inheriting eternal life and that sir would be you, whether or not you accept it~and it was the apostle Paul who under the inspiration of God who warns the faithful to BEWARE OF DOGS and he was not speaking of a four-legged animal, but men who taught the necessity of surgery (and other like doctrines) for salvation from sin and condemnation!

You mean like teaching folks you can't be a Sabbath Keeper, and be a Christian at the same time? You mean like preaching to the world that God's Laws are "VAIN DECEIT", Traditions of MAN" "Rudiments of the World", Beggarly Elements?

You mean like preaching Gentiles, before they knew God, were following God's Laws until Paul converted them, then they rejected God's Laws? And when they "turn again" to God's Laws, Paul rebuked them?

These are omissions and errors in your religion Red. It's simple to look into them, have a debate about them. But you refuse choosing instead to deflect.

The Pharisees did the exact same thing. They could have looked into the Scriptures presented to them, they could have been corrected, which is what the Law and Prophets are for. But they didn't believe the Law and Prophets, like you. But Paul did.

Quote
Read Philippians three~your doctrine would fall totally under Paul's warning, not mine, for I believe JUST AS PAUL taught when he said: Jesus Christ SECURED the saints right to eternal life by HIS FAITH, OBEDIENCE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS according to the will of God in the election of grace! By faith, we stand upon this glorious gospel truth and THIS FAITH of the saint was SECURED FOR US by Jesus Christ ALONE! Now, let us see who's the dog that Paul is warning us of! Exactly what I believe and teach. So, let us see who's the dog according to Paul, shall we?

To a man who is convinced that God's Laws are Vain deceit, Rudiments of the world, Beggarly Elements, and Traditions of man every scripture in the Bible will have a different meaning than the person who believes God is Perfect, HIS WORDS are Spirit and Life, His Laws are Spiritual, "good", Just", "Holy", and "righteous". So you and I will have a completely different understanding of Scriptures.

According to the Levitical Priesthood Law, a person cannot be "made righteous" without first bringing a sacrifice to a Levite Priest, who must then perform "works of the Law" to cleanse, or atone for this man's sin. This is simply a Biblical Fact.

This is what Paul meant by being made righteous by the Law. By the Pharisees version of the Levitical Priesthood he could "purchase" his own righteousness by following the "works of the Law" for atonement of sins. No repentance, no change, just take your possession and use it to purchase atonement.

 The Christ promised in Jeremiah 31 that "After those days" this system would be replaced by HIMSELF.

Of course the other voices out there don't teach these truths. But that doesn't mean they are not there.

Quote
Let me in a few words add to what Paul said in Galatians 2:20 and tie this into Colossians two for a clear understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and what he secured for God's elect. I said above that we will consider these scriptures and by doing so, we shall clearly answer~ "What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?"

I'm coming back later today (the Lord willing) and do a verse by verse study of Colossians two.

Until you submit yourself to God's Righteousness, and deny your own, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth, as it is written.

2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

And again;

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.








Offline RB

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 15:01:31 »
Your statement here implies that I can't "keep the Sabbath" as the Christ commands, and be a Christian at the same time.

So your whole first paragraph is baloney Red. I addressed your statement exactly as you said it. If you didn't mean what you wrote, or made a mistake in the writing, just admit it and correct yourself.
For sake of time, and in order for me to complete Colossians 2 down to the end of the chapter, I will only say this: "Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever taught that the Gentiles were under the Law of the Jewish Sabbath as that nation was~and even the Jews themselves were not under it as a means of inheriting eternal life AS YOU THINK and DESIRE others to believe. All of God's elect have been under the Covenant of GRACE from Abel to the last child of God regenerated! God's righteousness has been and will always be FREELY GIVEN GIVEN by IMPUTATION. Read and consider: Romans 4:1-8! God will NEVER impute sin to our account since it was imputed to his Son on our behalf by his grace. See and consider well: 2nd Corinthians 5:21~so no one can be a Chrisitan and a Sabbatarian in the sense in which you teach and believe. Now, if you desire to rest one out of seven days per the reason why God blessed the seventh day, then that's a good thing and we should practice that as I said in another thread yesterday. See:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-order-of-sequence-and-biblical-timeline/  Replies #15 and 28 recently posted

BUT, we DO NOT teach that if one does not practice the Sabbath day AS IT WAS GIVEN TO ISRAEL, that they cannot be saved, for THAT would be putting a yoke on believers, for then ONE MUST KEEP EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT WITHOUT SINNING and that's impossible for any man of the flesh to do so from conception to death in thoughts, words, and deeds.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:10-13~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Seeking salvation from sin and condemnation by any works of the law is to put one's self under the law's curse, if he sins in one point, which we all sin in every way..... every day. We sin in thoughts, words, and deeds, every day we live in this world, even the very best of God's children do so and even in their most godly moment's sin is mixed in all things that we do!

« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 15:04:01 by RB »

Offline skeeter

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 21:49:00 »
For instance, you said a man can not be a "Sabbath Keeper" and a Christian. Implying that if I obey the Sabbath Commandments of the Christ, I can't be a Christian. I pointed out that the serpent convinced Eve of the exact same thing. I think you should retract that false statement, and then apologize to all those folks who Love God and Keep His Commandments.
what does it mean to you to 'keep the sabbath' ?

Quote
In an intellectually honest debate, you would answer this question.

But you still haven't even though I have asked several times. It isn't some Evil spirit in me that causes you to do these things.
I've asked you questions that you don't answer.  you post a lot of words but they don't answer the questions.


Offline RB

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 03:49:19 »
Quote from: Paul, who warns us of those who trusted in the flesh, and not in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation
Colossians 2:11~"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"
The circumcision in Christ is the spiritual cutting off of all our sins by Jesus Christ’s death. NOT by any works of the law, of which works are performed by the energy of one's flesh.

Why is circumcision introduced here? We are “complete in Him” (2:10) by His death and resurrection for our sins, which makes the hands-on Old Testament ritual exceeding worthless. Circumcision was only an Old Testament outward sign of mere ceremonial privilege in Israel. This circumcision, that the Colossians had already received, was done without human hands! Which should be a clear cut sign that OT ordinances and many commandments were only types of SPIRITUAL TRUTHS, some yet to come, some already being done and seen and known to be by those whose eyes had been open by the Spirit of God.

This circumcision is in Jesus Christ, which we trace back by simple male pronouns to verse 8. Circumcision is the cutting off of unnecessary skin, which well represents cutting off our sins by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.  The prepositional phrase requires either a subjective~genitive construction, Jesus did the circumcising, or an objective-genitive construction, Jesus was Himself circumcised, or cut off. Jesus paid for our sins by being cut off Himself: we choose the objective-genitive construction~verse twelve will support this as we shall see. 

Since Jesus Himself was cut off, do we choose the eighth day or last day of His blessed life? Jesus Christ was cut off out of the land of the living to pay for those sins ( See and consider: Isaiah 53:8; Daniel 9:26). Of course, Jesus did circumcise us legally by being circumcised at Calvary.

There is absolutely no value or connection of circumcision with godliness after the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-31; Romans 2:28-29; 4:11; I Cor 7:18; Galatians 2:3-5; 5:1-4; 6:12-13).  This is one of many those rudiments of the world, which the Judaizers wanted to force on Gentiles.

But this entire verse is entirely spiritually, describing our justification by Jesus being cut off.  Here Paul is presenting the legal completeness we have in Jesus Christ by His sacrificial death. Paul argues our completeness in Christ by making Jewish circumcision a vain ritual (2:16-17).

Here is not regeneration or sanctification in a vital sense, for the apostle places that in 2:13. Let us be clear that the immediate context is not His active part in our salvation, but His passive part. We shall see this clearly in 2:12. Here is the body of the sins of the flesh that is cut off, but 2:13 is the flesh needing renovation. It is “in whom,” not by whom, here. He becomes the active agent of regeneration in 2:13.

Offline RB

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 04:16:49 »
Quote from: Paul who warns us concerning men who desire to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Colossians 2:12~"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
This scripture is understood by very few men and none by those who have confidence in their flesh.

This baptism here is not water baptism, for the CONTEXT will not support that interpretation. Yet men who are so quick to have a part in their salvation run roughshod over such wonderful scriptures in favor of the works of the flesh!

Our Lord Jesus said these words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 12:50~"But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
This precious and holy baptism was his suffering and death on the cross of Calvary where he was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God by his holy sacrifice and death for our sins.

The wonderful and blessed truth here is that the very elect were BURIED WITH HIM in this baptism that he performed FOR US. There is more~when he was put to death and we IN HIM being members of HIS FLESH and he the head of his body, we too were RAISED from the dead (by IMPUTATION/LEGALLY) through the faith and OPERATION OF GOD, who raised Jesus Christ from the dead. The same truth taught here is taught also in Ephesians two, which is the twin book of Colossians.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:5,6~"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Understanding these precious truth taught to us by Paul we see how that we are indeed COMPLETE in Jesus Christ based upon HIS HOLY BAPTISM of enduring the shame of the cross, yet for the joy set before him, he did it perfectly for the great love wherewith he loved us who trust him alone for our right to eternal life in the world to come.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 04:21:40 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 05:23:35 »
Sorry, RB, but your interpretation of Colossians 2 is pure bunk. One more time you have changed the meaning of words and phrases from the obvious to some esoteric Calvinistic jargon to agree with your distorted concept of the salvation of God through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel.  I would refer you, and anyone else interested in an understanding of the passage, to Jack Cottrell's Baptism, A Biblical Study, published by College Press.  Chapter eleven is a very detailed and complete analysis of Colossians 2:11-13. 

I will present here only a brief summary of that analysis.  First, baptism is the time when we are buried with Christ into His death to bring about the death of our sinful nature, an event called spiritual circumcision, thus preparing the way for our resurrection to new life.

Second, baptism is the time when this resurrection to new life occurs. This resurrection has two senses: we are raised up after we have died to sin, and we are raised up out of the state of death in sin.

Third, though it occurs in baptism, this burial and resurrection with Christ take place through faith, thus ruling out baptismal regeneration and infant baptism.

Finally, the only circumcision connected with baptism is the spiritual circumcision of the heart, which occurs at the time of baptism. There is no intrinsic relationship between physical circumcision and baptism at all.

In all of this, the passage is clearly speaking of water baptism as the time, the occurrence and the occasion of regeneration.

Offline RB

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 06:31:55 »
Sorry, RB, but your interpretation of Colossians 2 is pure bunk.
I'll be happy to discuss your understanding (or, I should say Mr. Cottrell's, which I think I have read in the past, or least some from quotes here and there from his work) when I finish going down to the end of the Colossians 2. 

I will only say for now, that the CONTEXT with not support either your understanding nor Mr. Cottrell's. Besides, water baptism is NOT certainly the reason why nor when our hearts are circumcised, as you believe~but the result of being circumcised by the Spirit of God based upon the baptism that Jesus Christ endured for his people, per Christ's very own words recorded for us by Luke in 12:50. Later, RB

If this is pure bunk, then my friend it is PRIME bunk from God's table for his children to eat and enjoy! My children when growing up and now my grandchildren thought/think that vegetables are bunk, but the poor little souls did/do not know any better. 

Offline Yeshua153

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 07:30:50 »
As God's elect there are no more rituals, & everything is spiritual & of the heart, including being a jew of the heart, circumcision & baptism. The Sabbath is also daily & Spiritually resting with God. The Passover is daily & Spiritual death to self, & resurrection to life, as Paul says in 1Cor 15v31 "I die daily".
I am now copying my reply I made to Terral about blood baptism, to save my finger!


I will say my belief, with baptism first, as it goes back to refer to the flood. I believe the last 2000yrs since Acts 2, it is spiritual blood baptism   
as defined by the 2 words that make up baptise, which has been anglicised, from baptizo & bapto, which means to cover (atone) with stain or dye (blood). This has the same meaning as Gen 6v14
  "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch."
The 1st pitch is kopher-to cover (atone) & 2nd pitch is Kaphar-stain or dye. In this case, probably a red henna bitumen. When the flood came, that was the judgement, they were saved through water, not with water, the caulking of the ark, with the pitch (baptism), is what saved the 8 of them. This was in 1Pet 3v20-21
while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Blood baptism is a daily death to self (resurrection), & to increase by faith, in our inner man, by His Spirit. Water baptism was only to become a citizen of Israel, a proselyte process that the eunuch did with Philip.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 08:14:31 »
Besides, water baptism is NOT certainly the reason why nor when our hearts are circumcised, as you believe~
Now you are committing a GBism, accusing me of saying something that I have not said, ever.  I did not say, nor have I ever said or inferred, that water baptism is the reason why our hearts are circumcised.  I didn't say that and I don't believe that.  But it is abundantly clear that it is the when, the time, the occasion that our hearts are circumcised.  And that is a critical point of the passage.  And you would understand that were it not for your adherence to the false doctrine of Reformed Theology.

Here and in the passage in Romans 6:1-9 where water baptism is pictured after the death. burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself.  It is in water baptism that the sinner dies [to sin]. is buried and then raised up to a new life in Christ Jesus.  The believer goes down a sinner and comes up a saint  --  the very definition and picture of regeneration.

Colossians 2 and Romans 6 are closely paralleled in the presentation of regeneration in baptism modeled after Jesus' own death, burial and resurrection.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 08:20:49 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 08:19:49 »
Water baptism was only to become a citizen of Israel, a proselyte process that the eunuch did with Philip.
That is patently false.  And that is apparent from the fact that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was certainly not entertaining any thought of proselytizing the Gentile to become a citizen of ethnic Israel.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:13:01 »
That is patently false.  And that is apparent from the fact that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was certainly not entertaining any thought of proselytizing the Gentile to become a citizen of ethnic Israel.
It's within spitting distance of the truth.  Baptism definitely was part of the proselyte process for those becoming Jewish.  It was an adoption ceremony, and converts were baptized in the name of Abraham.

Of course, the apostles weren't making people Jewish.  But were they adopting the converts via baptism?  Definitely.  Into Israel?  Yes.

The only thing here that doesn't make sense is the idea of "ethnic Israel."  Ethnic Israel ceased to exist 700+ years before New Testament times, receiving a death penalty from God.  The resurrected Israel of God that comes into being in the New Testament is Israel in every sense EXCEPT ethnically.  It was created out of the Goyim, as foretold in the prophets.

Jarrod

Offline GB

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:14:50 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=105134.msg1055153052#msg1055153052 date=1576616491]
For sake of time, and in order for me to complete Colossians 2 down to the end of the chapter, I will only say this: "Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever taught that the Gentiles were under the Law of the Jewish Sabbath as that nation was~and even the Jews themselves were not under it as a means of inheriting eternal life AS YOU THINK and DESIRE others to believe. All of God's elect have been under the Covenant of GRACE from Abel to the last child of God regenerated! God's righteousness has been and will always be FREELY GIVEN GIVEN by IMPUTATION. Read and consider: Romans 4:1-8! God will NEVER impute sin to our account since it was imputed to his Son on our behalf by his grace. See and consider well: 2nd Corinthians 5:21~so no one can be a Chrisitan and a Sabbatarian in the sense in which you teach and believe. Now, if you desire to rest one out of seven days per the reason why God blessed the seventh day, then that's a good thing and we should practice that as I said in another thread yesterday. See:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-order-of-sequence-and-biblical-timeline/  Replies #15 and 28 recently posted


To believe you and your religion, I must also believe that the Christ, before coming to earth as a man, was a respecter of persons, that He is also a liar, an unjust God who created instructions impossible to follow, then slaughtered those who didn't follow them. But not all though, as according to you, some of those men who couldn't keep those impossible laws were spared. Not because of anything they did, or any choice they made or any attempt they made to honor God in any way. They were chosen by some invisible Holy Lottery that we can't see or understand.

And you can't tell folks anything about this invisible Lottery, accept that you were one lucky winner, and I am not.

So this convoluted religion of yours teaches that there is nothing I can do to be one of the lucky winners because I was either rejected or chosen before I was even born, but you preach there are things I can do to be excluded from this invisible Lottery.

Specifically, to strive to obey the instructions and believe and promote the WORD's of this Christ of the Bible. If I do this, which includes respecting and honoring a DAY HE Sanctified as Holy, then I am automatically disqualified from this invisible Lottery. So can you please explain how nothing I can do will prompt God to "hear me"  but there are things I can "DO" which will ensure that He does not.

You also imply by your preaching that this same Christ is a liar from the very beginning. He told us "If thou do well, shall thou not be accepted"? And throughout the entire Bible HE pleads with men to "CHOOSE HIM". Over and over He says "Come to ME", "Turn to ME", Choose ME and then I will save you. He says "And showing Mercy to thousands who Love Me and Keep MY Commandments", but according to your own religion, these Words can not be trusted and this Christ is a Liar and deceiver, and HIS Laws are "Vain Deceit" and "Rudiments of the World", which are a plague and "yoke of bondage" on the men of the world.

He says;

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


But you preach to the world that this is a lie. That we have no choice. That nothing we do, especially listening and obeying Him as EVERY example of the Faithful did, matters. And further more, if we strive to "DO" as HE instructs, we are heretics.

And how do I know if I am a lucky Lottery winner? If I join your church, and follow your religion. Otherwise I am a DOG fallen from Grace, which according to you I was predestined to do from the foundation of the earth as I have no choice in the matter.

I don't believe the Christ is a Liar Red. I don't believe He is unjust, or that His instructions are "Beggarly Elements" and I never will. If I must believe HE is a liar to be accepted by Him, then I am doomed.

Quote
BUT, we DO NOT teach that if one does not practice the Sabbath day AS IT WAS GIVEN TO ISRAEL, that they cannot be saved, for THAT would be putting a yoke on believers, for then ONE MUST KEEP EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT WITHOUT SINNING and that's impossible for any man of the flesh to do so from conception to death in thoughts, words, and deeds.


I see, If I read the Word's of the Christ which says "Thou Shall not kill", and I tell my children and friends that if they go around killing people God says He will not accept them. That is placing a Yoke on believers because if they keep one Commandment they must keep to be saved, then they must also "KEEP EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT WITHOUT SINNING".

So then;

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Commandment) and from fornication,(God's Commandment) and from things strangled, (God's Commandment) and from blood.(God's Commandment)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So then, according to you, Peter was placing a "Yoke" on the necks of the Gentiles here. Are they not also bound to obey the commandments of God as well? Or can they steal and lie, and kill folks, and hate their brother in their hearts and still be saved?


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Seeking salvation from sin and condemnation by any works of the law is to put one's self under the law's curse, if he sins in one point, which we all sin in every way..... every day.


So whose Word's and Instructions shall I seek then? If I can't trust God's Word regarding who He gives His Mercy to, who shall I trust?  Yours, the Popes? I'm sticking with this Christ.

Duet. 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Prov. 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Woops, I forgot, in your religion I can not trust in the Word's of this Christ, Never mind.


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We sin in thoughts, words, and deeds, every day we live in this world, even the very best of God's children do so and even in their most godly moment's sin is mixed in all things that we do!


First I don't believe a man has to sin every day in deed and thought. God created for us an "escape" from every temptation. He also gave us Armor to put on in order to resist all the other voices out there who teach we can't resist sin. Or are these more Word's you believe to be lies and deception that I can not trust or rely on.

Didn't the Christ create something for this very ailment?

1 Tim. 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

If what you preach about sin is true, then you should have this cure the Christ created wrapped around your entire body and mind.


Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Woops, I forgot again, the Word's of this Christ can not be trusted.

Red, I know your pride causes you to close your ears and eyes as with all men. And I know you are just furthering doctrines from "other voices" out there. If you could only "Believe" what is written, you would think differently.

Why don't you answer the question I posed regarding your religious doctrine that God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements"? Why don't you examine and explain how those Gentiles were following God's Laws and Sabbaths, before they "knew Him, or were ""known of Him?

Answer the question Red.

You are not the first person snared by the deceiver to promote heresies Red. The problem with being deceived isn't that we've been deceived, the Christ of the Bible teaches satan deceives the whole world. We all have deception in us. The Problem is staying deceived after His Word has exposed it.

Answer the question Red, it might be the start of repentance.  ::reading::










Offline Yeshua153

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:18:22 »
.

Here and in the passage in Romans 6:1-9 where water baptism is pictured after the death. burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself.  It is in water baptism that the sinner dies [to sin]. is buried and then raised up to a new life in Christ Jesus.  The believer goes down a sinner and comes up a saint  --  the very definition and picture of regeneration.

Colossians 2 and Romans 6 are closely paralleled in the presentation of regeneration in baptism modeled after Jesus' own death, burial and resurrection.
Quote
If you parse baptise, it is a verbal noun (infinitive), which means the subject does not move, & the action takes place, over him or it. For example, as I said, baptise is to cover (atone) with stain or dye (blood. So, if you were a shed, (like the ark was), it would be ludicrous to have a giant pool of pitch to immerse it in, rather than paint it on, like normal. So to say that baptise means to dip or immerse, does not hold up, grammatically. Hence our hearts are sprinkled daily, with the blood baptism, so we die to self daily, & resurrect to new life, through God forgiving our sins. Lk9v23  “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

Being buried with Him in baptism, as the subject does not move, you would drown in your water, or the correct stain or dye (blood). Hey, I was water baptised 3 times, as a baby, sign of cross on forehead, & immersed in the River Jordan, all unnecessary, but I lacked the knowledge, at the time.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #28 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:22:24 »
Holy Lottery
rofl  I guess that's one way of putting it. 

Offline GB

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Re:What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:45:54 »
 author=skeeter link=topic=105134.msg1055153063#msg1055153063 date=1576640940]
Quote
what does it mean to you to 'keep the sabbath' ?

It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the Word's of the Christ that I follow teaches.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

I have wondered; What does God mean by "no work"? But then He answers this question as well.

IS. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

I think, like murdering and stealing and adultery, the sin begins in the mind first. Jesus said there is a cost for denying our self and following Him. But Paul, said, and my experience over the last 25 years, is that the benefits to my self and my family by follow the Commandments of God and fasting from the works of this world for one day a week, far out weigh any negatives.

Each person must be fully persuaded in their own mind, and my experience means nothing, I understand this. But my business employs over a dozen independent contractors all with families. No one works on my projects during the Christ's Holy Sabbaths. This means a 6 day ticket at most. At first they don't like it because Saturday, in modern religions, is the day of more pay, more fun, more pleasure in this world. But after awhile, even though they reject God's Sabbath as a Commandment, they are blessed because they are freed on the weekend by it. Almost every one of my regular contractors wives have thanked me for this policy. Normally a land man leaves the house and can be gone for weeks at a time. But here, they can be home every weekend to spend with their family. I have several men who have been working for me for over 10 years, some a lot more. They never get burned out, they spend more time with their family and all because of God's instructions many believe are a yoke and a burden.

There is a reason why the Christ created, sanctified and set apart this day. I know the reason because I have lived it from the heart. But those who are not exercised by reason of use, can not know why the Christ created it. This is because HIS LAws are Spiritual, as Paul teaches.


Quote
I've asked you questions that you don't answer.  you post a lot of words but they don't answer the questions.

That is certainly not my intent. Can you give me an example where you asked a question and I didn't answer?

Offline GB

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #30 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 10:17:32 »
That is patently false.  And that is apparent from the fact that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was certainly not entertaining any thought of proselytizing the Gentile to become a citizen of ethnic Israel.

I believe Wycliffs is right. Paul most certainly did convert Gentiles into the teaching of the "Oracles of God" that the Jews had.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

And again;

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches (Jews) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,(Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Not Ethnic Israel, but Spiritual Israel. As Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews".

 

Offline 4WD

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 11:19:20 »
It's within spitting distance of the truth.  Baptism definitely was part of the proselyte process for those becoming Jewish.  It was an adoption ceremony, and converts were baptized in the name of Abraham.

Of course, the apostles weren't making people Jewish.  But were they adopting the converts via baptism?  Definitely.  Into Israel?  Yes.

The only thing here that doesn't make sense is the idea of "ethnic Israel."  Ethnic Israel ceased to exist 700+ years before New Testament times, receiving a death penalty from God.  The resurrected Israel of God that comes into being in the New Testament is Israel in every sense EXCEPT ethnically.  It was created out of the Goyim, as foretold in the prophets.

Jarrod
None of that had anything to do with the Gospel that Paul preached.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 11:20:00 »
I believe Wycliffs is right. Paul most certainly did convert Gentiles into the teaching of the "Oracles of God" that the Jews had.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

And again;

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches (Jews) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,(Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Not Ethnic Israel, but Spiritual Israel. As Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews".
Israel does not equal Jews.  It's a little tricky, to be sure.  Jews are Israelites, in one sense.  But in another sense, Israel was the country just north of Judah.  Related by common descent, but not the same country.  It's up to the reader to decipher which is being discussed in Scripture.

As for baptism, it's about birthright.  The promises come through Abraham, and only by inheritance.  Abraham's covenant with God was for an heir, after all.

The Law, which was added afterwards, isn't the same covenant.  God's standards stayed the same (He doesn't change), but the Mosaic covenant has different blessings (regular rainfall, peace in the land) and also contains curses that are not part of Abraham's covenant.

When we get down to New Testament times, we have Jesus' apostles baptizing converts into a new, re-born Israel (not Judah!).  Being goyim adopted into Israel makes them party to the promises of Abraham's covenant.  It doesn't make them party to the Law of Moses, though, as the point of adoption is Abraham, who is before the Law.

So, to bring this back to the topic... what does that mean as regards Sabbath-keeping?  The new Israel is not subject to the letter of Moses' law, but it is subject to the terms of Abraham's covenant, which are to walk by faith until we attain the measure of perfection.  We must keep the spirit of the Law (that is, the intent).  In this case, the Sabbath law was intended to provide rest for workers.  The Sabbath was made for man, so that he does not work himself into an early grave.  That is what we must practice.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #33 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 11:25:54 »
None of that had anything to do with the Gospel that Paul preached.
Ok first, "the Gospel that Paul preached" is not the topic.  "Paul's teachings on the Sabbath" is what is under consideration.

Second, that's wrong.  The resurrection and restoration of Israel is part and parcel of the gospel.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What Did Paul teach about the Sabbath?
« Reply #34 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 11:28:14 »
When we get down to New Testament times, we have Jesus' apostles baptizing converts into a new, re-born Israel (not Judah!). 
Just a small point.  They weren't converts until they had been baptized, depending of course, on your definition of the word convert. I use the term conversion to mean that instant in time at which the individual was changed from being a sinner to being a saint, i.e., that instant at which he was saved.  And a convert is one who has experienced conversion.

 

     
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