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Offline Jaime

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Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 07:47:41 »
Paul circumcised Timothy who was born to a Jewish woman and a Greek man. Paul did it to not offend the Jews where he was going, (who also reckoned Jewishness through the mother). Titus was not circumcised because his parents were both non-Jews. 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 08:16:29 by Jaime »

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Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 07:47:41 »

Offline GB

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #1 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 17:36:57 »
Paul circumcised Timothy who was born to a Jewish woman and a Greek man. Paul did it to not offend the Jews where he was going, (who also reckoned Jewishness through the mother). Titus was not circumcised because his parents were both non-Jews. 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm

That is an interesting thought. Did genealogy have something to do with Timothy and Titus regarding circumcision? Maybe, but consider this and the irony of the name of the Books which teach them.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

And again;

1 Tim. 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

 So it seems that the parent or family tree had little or nothing to do with the reason why Timothy was Circumcised. Don't you find it fascinating that the two Books which speak to Genealogy are Timothy and Titus. It might just be me, but I don't place much weight in the teaching of the Jews who turned the Torah into the Talmud. I don't think Paul did either, but I could be mistaken.

So what about the Galatians verse and Titus? The following is just a few translations of the verse in question.

Galatians 2:3 (ASV) But not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Galatians 2:3 (ESV) But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
Galatians 2:3 (RHE) But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Gentile, was compelled to be circumcised.
Galatians 2:3 (TYN) Also Titus which was with me though he were a Greke yet was not compelled to be circumcised
Galatians 2:3 (CEB) However, not even Titus, who was with me and who was a Greek, was required to be circumcised.
Galatians 2:3 (RSV) But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.

So this is curious to me given what the teaching of the land is.

Titus was not compelled to be Circumcised, though he was a Greek. WHY???? Given the Word's of Jesus,

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; (Abraham) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Why would he be compelled NOT to become circumcised. Here is why according to Paul.

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Is this not saying that Titus was not compelled to be circumcised because of false brethren, even though he was a Greek? And if Titus was not circumcised, then why would that bring him into bondage? Bondage of what? It can't mean bondage of God's Commandment, because the Commandment is to become circumcised. It can only mean "bondage of transgression".

And Timothy, on the other hand, was circumcised by the instruction of Paul himself. So was he also brought into bondage, or was he brought into the Liberty of Christ?

What if the Liberty here is the freedom to honor the Christ apart from the Levitical Priesthood. What if the "liberty" is the atonement of God apart from the "works" of the Levitical Priesthood.

You and I have the same questions regarding these scriptures, mainly because, in my view, of the mainstream interpretation of Acts 15 we have been taught since our youth, and their insistence that the "Yoke" placed on the necks of the Disciples by the Pharisees was God's Commandments. I think it is mistake to accuse God of such action. Especially since Jesus said these same Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men.

Anyway, it is a fascinating study and certainly an important one to understand. I hope you don't mind the input.

 ::smile:: ::smile::










 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #2 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 17:44:25 »
I wasn’t intending to imply that it was curious that Titus was not circumcised, but that Timothy WAS circumcised. Seems to me that Timithy was circumccised BECAUSE he was Jewish as reckoned by his mother being Jewish even though his father was a Greek. And Paul surely didn’t want to offend the Jews where he intended to go. In fact the Bible referring to that obscure fact was curious if not the reason FOR him being circumcised.

This is not getting bogged down in geneologies, it matters for nothing really, but it is a curiosity because of Timothy’s circumcision and the mention of his Jewish mother in an easily overlooked passage of the Bible. Instead of reading a verse like Timothy getting circumcised and shrugging my shoulders and moving on, these type things cause me to pause and consider what was behind the mention of such, nothing more. It causes me to look deeper  at culteral, societal and other aspects. The people thought and acted as Easterners and not Westerners as we do and are.

I am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew, but the Bible was written BY, and TO Jews for a large part. I think it is profitable to understand those backgrounds.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 20:32:56 by Jaime »

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #2 on: Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 17:44:25 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #3 on: Wed Mar 18, 2020 - 18:12:14 »
Paul circumcised Timothy who was born to a Jewish woman and a Greek man. Paul did it to not offend the Jews where he was going, (who also reckoned Jewishness through the mother). Titus was not circumcised because his parents were both non-Jews. 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm
That article is B.S.

The matrilineal reckoning of wasn't a norm until at least Rabbi Akiva (late 1st century), and probably a little later.  Shammai and Hillel debated the topic in New Testament times.

But more importantly, Jesus weighs in on the topic, substantially disagreeing with BOTH houses, and with what eventually became the official position of the Jews:

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.  I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.  But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John agrees:

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (Luke 3:8)

Paul lays it out very clearly:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28-29)

So, it behooves us to follow Jesus teaching on the topic, rather than the Pharisees, here where they disagree.

Jarrod

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #3 on: Wed Mar 18, 2020 - 18:12:14 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 18, 2020 - 20:32:18 »
I don’t follow. The article didn’t say that Jews were not reckoned as children of Abraham, just that the mother’s part of the deal was important as in the case of Timothy. I’m not sure what the significance of telling the readers of scripture that his mother was a Jew if it didn’t have significance in Paul having him circumcised and not Titus. It seems Paul went way out of  his way to include that tidbit if not for emphasizing it for some reason.

It seems that in the case of mixed marriages it would be significant. Where both parents are Jewish it seems it wouldn’t matter.

I think you are right about it being a late first century thing. Which would have been about right for Paula to consider what would be “prudent” socially Timothy in that day as they moved in and among the Jews of the Day.

There is some verses in the Torah that could lean towards Matrilinality but yes Patrilineality was the dominant thought in the Torah ESPECIALLY Related to the priesthood.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 18, 2020 - 20:44:41 by Jaime »

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 18, 2020 - 20:32:18 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #5 on: Thu Mar 19, 2020 - 17:30:33 »
Quote
I don’t follow.
I'll try to do better.

In regards to the question "who is an Israelite?" there was already debate in the early 1st century.  Why was it a debate?  To be blunt, because of rape.  The Jews were conquered frequently through their history, and patriarchal bloodlines become questionable when you have whole cities or territories being violently conquered.

Anyhow, while patriarchal bloodlines were the historical position, there was already movement in the 1st century to change to reckoning according to matriarchy.  It is never unclear who the mother of a child is.

However, Jesus disagreed with BOTH the patriarchal and matriarchal arguments, and argued for a different criteria.  Jesus' position was that heredity can be determined by looking at behavior.  Those who are Abraham's children... act like Abraham.  And the converse is also true - those who act like the devil are the devil's children.  By Jesus criteria, even those with a pedigree and a genealogy were suspect (and they didn't like that much).

Anyway, to get back to the main text this thread is about...

Acts Chapter 16 (ESV)

Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.  He was well spoken of by the brothers[fn] at Lystra and Iconium.  Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.  As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions that had been reached by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem.  So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.


It seems to me that the issue was that the Jews would not consider Timothy to be Jewish, in spite of his Jewish mother.  That doesn't point to matriarchal lineage, rather the opposite - that they felt he would need to be converted to Judaism before he could stand in synagogue with Paul.

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #5 on: Thu Mar 19, 2020 - 17:30:33 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #6 on: Thu Mar 19, 2020 - 19:06:03 »
But wouldn’t Paul have wanted to comply with the Jews societal norms at the time and have Timothy circumcised as the Jew  he was reckoned by them to be in the first century? It would have been awkward to pass Timothy off as one of them and not be circumcised while they both were among them. The Jews at this time considered the uncircumcised or gentiles as unclean. I am assuming Timothy was maybe more or less backslidden from Judaism being a half breed. And his mom didn’t push his Jewishness to the point of being circumcised. Maybe she COULDN’T. What I’m saying is that the Jews would have considered him a Jew in that day because of mateilineality and his not being circumcised would probably have been a problem for Paul’s Jewish peers. Not at all that Paul was trying to imply Timothy’s circumcision was a prerequisite to salvation. Paul was willing ro be whatever or whoever he needed to in order to win souls for Christ. It wasn’t a case of legalism for Paul but a case of appearances and avoidance of offending.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 11:16:51 by Jaime »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #7 on: Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 18:16:57 »
Yeah I think your read on this is wrong.

...wouldn’t Paul have wanted to comply with the Jews societal norms at the time...
We're talking about a guy who was reckoned to be teaching apostasy by Jewish believers because of his strong stand on 'liberty' and perceived "anti-law" doctrine.  He openly opposed Peter to his face over a similar issue.  Paul is the guy who smashed societal norms into tiny pieces, and then jumped up and down on them til they were dust.

It would have been awkward to pass Timothy off as one of them and not be circumcised while they both were among them.
Timothy simply wouldn't have been allowed in synagogues.  We know Paul went to the synagogues first, so...

I am assuming Timothy was maybe more or less backslidden from Judaism being a half breed. And his mom didn’t push his Jewishness to the point of being circumcised. Maybe she COULDN’T.  What I’m saying is that the Jews would have considered him a Jew in that day because of mateilineality
Matrilineality wasn't authorized by the Jews until AT LEAST two decades after Paul's death, and probably more like four.  The Jews would have considered him a Gentile, because of his father.  Actually, the question of paternity/maternity is secondary.  Not circumcised = not Jewish.  Judaism is a covenant.  You aren't cut, you aren't covenant.

-----

There are other problems here, too.  In Judaism, women's inclusion is based on their relationship to their husband.  A woman of Jewish birth who married a Greek man who did not convert... would have been considered to have become Greek in orthodox thought, and her children would not be considered Jewish.

Finally, let's have a thought experiment.  Let's assume for a second that a shift in thought toward matrilineality had already happened (perhaps using a later dating for 1Timothy).  In that case, if we're going to accept that one part of Akiba's reforms is already in place, we have to assume they all have been adopted.  And that means that Timothy's mother, who was a believer, would also have been excluded as a Jew, on the basis of her affiliation with Christianity.  The reforms that were put in place were geared specifically towards removing Christianity from being a branch of Judaism.

You're dealing with an anachronism.  You're projecting 4th century Jewish thought back 3 centuries to a place where it did not hold sway.

Jarrod

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 19:03:19 »
Still doesn’t explain Timothy’s circumcision by Paul without this thought. It seems to me trying to make a Gentile appear Jewish would have been the worst thing possible for a guy like Paul. Some of the other things I have read indicate that matrilineality was around no later than the mid to late first century. Some even point to Ezra in the OT as the beginning of Matrilineality. There would be no other reason to include the detail in scripture about Timothy’s mother.    Or for that matter no reason to include it even in casual conversation. Paul was willing ro be a Jew to the Jews or whatever he had to be to further the gospel. I don’t believe he would have been willing to masquerade Timothy as a Jew to other Jews. It would have defeated his stated mantra. Timothy HAD to have been considered a Jew, whether the “rule” was codified or not, it seems to me. Personally I believe scripture, all of scripture, has clues like Timothy’s mother being Jewish being put there to inform us, maybe in ways we don’t anticipate the 20 or 30 times we read something.

Probably worthless discussion to most folks, but these type “nuggets” keep me digging. Thanks for your input.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 21:58:12 by Jaime »

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 19:03:19 »

Offline M Luther

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #9 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 20:46:50 »
Paul circumcised Timothy who was born to a Jewish woman and a Greek man. Paul did it to not offend the Jews where he was going, (who also reckoned Jewishness through the mother). Titus was not circumcised because his parents were both non-Jews. 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm

The Apostle Paul didn't follow the Talmud (which is where link points).  You might check the Bible and see that lineages are  reckoned through the father, not the mother (and, never for the purpose of establishing someone as a Jew).   Not only is your doctrine absolutely not biblical, it's not even the doctrine of rabbinical pseudo-Jews who follow the Talmud.  To no Jew ever does having a Jewish mom (or dad) make you a Jew, at least beyond presumption.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #10 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 21:43:48 »
I am aware of Paul and the Bible and the Talmud. What do you say about The mention of Timothy’s mother being Jewish IN the Bible, if it had no bearing on him being Jewish or the need to circumcise him. Why mention at all that his mother was Jewish if it had no bearing on the context. History books point to the matrilineality of the Jews beginning in the late first or second centuries. The Torah reckoned Jewish lineage through the father and then that changed in the period I mentioned.  Some Bible commentators reference a linkage even back to verses in the book of Ezra when the Jews returned from captivity and had mixed marriages that had to be considered. It is a Jewish thing, not MY thing. It’s ONLY a thing in mixed marriages. This was addressed in Ezra after the return from Babylonian captivity, and later formally adopted. If both parents are Jews, it isn’t an issue.

https://reformjudaism.org/practice/ask-rabbi/i-have-jewish-mother-and-christian-father-what-am-i
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 22:00:36 by Jaime »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 00:24:41 »
I don’t believe he would have been willing to masquerade Timothy as a Jew to other Jews.
If he was baptized and circumcized, it wouldn't have been a masquerade.  Would have been legit.

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 00:59:22 »
What do you say about The mention of Timothy’s mother being Jewish IN the Bible, if it had no bearing on him being Jewish or the need to circumcise him.  Why mention at all that his mother was Jewish if it had no bearing on the context. History books point to the matrilineality of the Jews beginning in the late first or second centuries. The Torah reckoned Jewish lineage through the father and then that changed in the period I mentioned.  Some Bible commentators reference a linkage even back to verses in the book of Ezra when the Jews returned from captivity and had mixed marriages that had to be considered. It is a Jewish thing, not MY thing. It’s ONLY a thing in mixed marriages. This was addressed in Ezra after the return from Babylonian captivity, and later formally adopted. If both parents are Jews, it isn’t an issue.

https://reformjudaism.org/practice/ask-rabbi/i-have-jewish-mother-and-christian-father-what-am-i

If mother being a jew made the children Jews, as you believe, then you have the explaining to do, as Paul didn't think maternity would satisfy the Jews.  What  help is done by conceding (what arm twisting did that take?) that matrilineal descent didn't come until after Paul wrote?   Now you have to explain how, when, and why God would change it after the NT (and long after Babylon)? 

If the father were a Jew, they'd presume Timothy was raised as a Jew.  But, if not, then not, as is the case here.  The mother being a Jew means Timothy would have an understanding of Judaism and could pass as a follower of Judaism, if circumcised.   You see, a Jew is a follower of Judaism, contrary to your racist and unchristian philosophy.

You say if both parents are Jews, it isn’t an issue.  Then you posted a link.  Are you expecting me to search for what I don't believe is there, to find what you can't find yourself?

From the article you linked, we read, "If you consider yourself a Christian, say, and act accordingly, then you would be considered a Christian by Reform."  That web page represents a liberal jewish denomination.  And, that quotes means if you violate the doctrines of their religion by accepting Christ, then you are not a Jew, regardless of who your parents are.   If you'd like to bring up the rest of that sentence, then compliment it with a quote from an Orthodox Jewish web site.

I believe you are being disingenuous in our discussion  because you have been neglecting your real belief about what makes a Jew a Jew.  Not matrilineal or patrilineal descent, but the line of Jacob.  Don't you want to go backed to that Reformed Jewish website and get a link saying a Jew is of the line of Jacob?   



Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #13 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 04:59:41 »
As both articles presented tribal lineage and priestly lineage was definitely from the father. Mateilineality is not up for debate. The Jews practiced it informally to an extent from the time of Ezra because of mixed  marriages it was formally codified later. If no mixed marriage, no issue. Some sects of Judahism recognize it and others don’t. I don’t care because I am not Jewish. The forum was slow the day I put it on. I was googling something else and the link I posted was  mentioned. I never considered it before. Though to me it makes absolute perfect sense why Timothy’s mother was mentioned in a discussion of circumcision. Paul would never in a million years  have someone considered a gentile circumcised. As it turned out, not much discussion. And again I only presented it as an item of interest. It’s not hard to see that it exists and is in practice. It has nothing to do with my belief, Anti-semitic or un-Christian or not. If you assert that again, you will be muted. Your choice.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 09:21:49 by Jaime »

Offline M Luther

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #14 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 16:00:43 »
Mateilineality is not up for debate.

Why isn't it up for debate?  I assume you're a Dispensatiolnalist.  Therefor, your doctrine is that Jews are of the line of Jacob.  Yet, neither article you linked, or any Jew, agrees with your belief about their beliefs.   You also seem to be engaged in bait-and-switch, as if Mateilineality proves the line of Jacob.  It absolutely does not.   

Have you already forgotten neither of your links allow for anyone born of a jewish mother to be considered a Jew, if  they have departed from the jewish religion?

Your first article attempts to find mateilineality in the Old Testament by pointing to an incident of pagan wives and their children being expelled from Israel.   This has nothing to do with matrilineality, but with protecting Israel from paganism.  It's also a very bad way to create doctrine by assuming something about a story while ignoring every the rest of the Bible.

The Talmud also says gentiles are not people.  Do you also agree with that?  The jewish leaders who wrote the Talmud attempt to prove it from the Old Testament.   Why do you keep giving credibility to the holy book of an antichristiian religion?

Quote
Paul would never in a million years  have someone considered a gentile circumcised.

In fact, you're wrong again.  Timothy was a gentile, as proven by being uncircumcised.   And, don't forget that your undebatable matrilineality claim is contradicted by the fact having a jewish mother didn't make Timothy considered anything other than a gentile to the Jews. 

Paul found it of value to be a Jew to the Jews, and that includes not traveling with uncircumcised people.  Paul, never in a million years, saw any legitimacy in circumcising anyone.   He called it mutilation and called the Jews who engaged in it dogs.  Also, Paul, never in a million years, thought who your mom or dad was mattered in your relationship to God.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #15 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 16:35:32 »
No, I go to the Church of Christ, as such not a dispensationalist in any way nor a wannabe Talmudist.

And Paul would NEVER have had a gentile circumcised, even before I read this article. It would have never happened! I am not a Talmudist. I saw this article written by Jews on how THEY RECKON Jewishness. Me personally, it never crossed my mind other than wondering why Paul had Timothy circumcised and not Titus. That was what I was googling when I came across that article. Not at all a long held belief, only about 5 minutes old at the time. Timothy being considered a Jew because of his mother was the only sense I could make out of the whole circumcision thing. This is not a topic I had ever latched onto as a Talmud wannabe, so drop that notion. There has been disagreement to the article, that doesn’t surprise me. If a Jewish site says they believe in matrilineality, and many other sites speak of it as well, i tend to believe them when in my mind it perfectly explains why Paul would require what I consider a Gentile to be circumcised. It doesn’t fit. Not trying to sell anybody on anything, just pointing out that I KNOW Paul NEVER would require a Gentile to be circumcised, unless of course Timothy was not considered by his peers to be a Gentile, (because of his mother) and there was no reason for the passage to mention that his mother was Jewish except for that.

I do not give credence to the Talmud. Obviously the Jews do. By the way you need to chill out on your accusations. This was an article I had never considered this topic before. I DO think it gives a valid reason for the scripture mentioning Timothy’s mother being Jewish, otherwise it was wasted ink to include that tidbit. And the Talmud means nothing to me. It does mean something amazingly to the Jews. This topic was an oddity, not a sly effort to convert anyone to Talmudism. If that’s what you think. Stop it NOW!
Most folks here are pretty easy to get along with. No need for both barrels a blazin’. Harpoon  me over lifelong error when you discover lifelong error. This ain’t one of ‘em.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 16:55:54 by Jaime »

Offline M Luther

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #16 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 13:30:41 »
No, I go to the Church of Christ, as such not a dispensationalist in any way nor a wannabe Talmudist.

Then why are you trying to legitimize Talmudic Jews and promote Talmudic doctrine (matrilineality)?

Also, did I miss you acknowledging  that your own article linked says if you (born into a a jewish family) consider yourself a Christian then you are a Christian, and not a Jew?




Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #17 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 14:29:43 »
Not trying to promote anything just as I said 3 times I think. Just thought it was interesting. I have not pledged any allegiance to the Talmud. One more accusation like you said I am promoting Talmudic doctrine you’re gone.

We all reference interesting articles. I have no problem with your disagreement, just quit trying to make me out to be a Talmud fan. I am not. I still very much adhere to my Church of Christ roots other than the congregation I attend has an instrumental service and an accapella service. My wife and I attend the acappella service. I tell you this for reference not to invite your critique.

The article may well contradict itself. It was an article about how Jews reckon Jewishness, not about how Christians do or even the OT people did. Lord knows I don’t agree with the Jews on much of anything. I still think it was a reasonable explanation of why Paul circumcised Timothy, which was a strange thing to require of a supposed Gentile. Anyway, I won’t be responding further to this thread, but I will keep an eye out for your accusations. So in the words of Clint Eastwood, “Go ahead, make my day”! If you disagree with my moderating, please address Admin in a personal message or PM. He is the owner of the forum.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 15:22:22 by Jaime »

Offline M Luther

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #18 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 14:19:02 »
A real Jew has faith in God, circumcision of the heart, not the flesh, let alone the insane ramblings about lineage.  Rabbinical Jews say they are Jews, but lack faith in God, and therefor are the Synagogue of Satan, but I will continue to call them Jews as they call themselves, and as real Jews are now called Christians.

Jews are really anti-Jew.  A Christian (a real Jew) accepts Jesus as the Christ.  Jews (so called) deny Jesus is the Christ, and therefor are precisely Antichrist.   Jews sacrifice chickens, rather than any animal instructed by the Old Testament.  Jews are the most solidly pro-sodomy ethnic group, while the Bible condemns sodomy in the strongest terms.  Jews are supremacists devoid of love for others.  Jew are anti-everything that characterizes a real Jew.

The Old Testament is  patrilineal whenever linage matters (which is never for being a real Jew).  The adoption of meterliniality is just another way Jews are anti-everything that characterizes a real Jew.

Jaime, your first post might be totally politically correct, but theologically it's very irresponsible.  It does look like you're trying to legitimize rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud.  You also feed into the raging ignorance of Dispensationalists who believe that Jews are defined by Jacobean linage which in turn is blessed by their racist god. (Why do you object to the term racist for what is precisely racist?  For shame!)

Mateliniality is a manifestation of Jewish supremacy.   In their Talmudic doctrine, gentiles are animals.  People beget people, animals beget animals.   So, a child born of a Jewish woman is considered a Jew, until he betrays his fellow Jews by accepting Christ.

Go ahead, pull out your censor stick.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Jewishness reckoned through the Mother
« Reply #19 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 14:50:32 »
Bye