Author Topic: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2  (Read 1246 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #35 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 04:21:38 »
That so-called practical in nature salvation is such a bogus concept that it is never spoken of in Scripture.  I understand all the nuanced distinctions that you try to assign to the very notion of salvation, but it is all a fabrication to permit you to hold on to the heretical concept of Total Depravity.  But I do understand what Paul is saying there in Romans 1:16;  you are the one who thinks such power not really about salvation, but only the information about salvation.
Oaky, I see a lot was said yesterday, so allow me a few short posts to answer each accordingly.

4WD, I did not make up the five different senses in which the words save/saved/salvation are used in the word of God, God Himself placed them there for us to study and come to a true understanding of how He has chosen to use those words in his testimony of The Truths of whatever doctrine is under consideration. I'll not go into them again with you but would if another person requests to search out this for himself, to see if this is so or not.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 10:48:07
There is nothing nuanced whatsoever about the words "saved" and "condemned" in Mark 16:16. Saved is saved unto eternal life and condemned is condemned unto the second death.
A subtle distinction? There's not anything about the word saved that's subtle, that comes from a mind that is not as of yet taught the truth by the Spirit of God concerning such scriptures.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
A very quick consideration of Mark 16:16.  Saved in Mark 16 is used without question in a practical sense, not in regenerating sense~even within this very scripture~ this should be clear, and truly do not see why so many folks have trouble with this verse, even among particular Baptist.

Jesus made it clear concerning those that shall be damned are ONLY UNBELIEVERS, not those who were "not" baptized. Are there any here who would disagree with that? if so, then you truly have a bigger problem whereby it may keep you from ever seeing the truth Jesus is teaching us.

The salvation in Mark 16:16 is a salvation of having a true biblical KNOWLEDGE of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Living on THIS SIDE of the cross and hearing the truth concerning the gospel without question give any person who have heard, believe and are baptized according to Romans 6; 1st Corinthians 15; 1st Peter 3:21; etc. have a KNOWLEDGE that is far superior to any person "pre" coming of Jesus Christ into the world. Now, some have believed and may have never been baptized according to such scriptures just presented, ye they too will inherit eternal life, just their knowledge of the truth is far inferior to those who believed and was baptized according to the scriptures~meaning by immersion, and with an understanding that such a one is being baptized INTO the faith, religion, teachings of the Son of God, with a hope of a further resurrection per 1st Corinthians 15:29.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 04:24:22 by RB »

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #35 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 04:21:38 »

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #36 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 04:45:37 »
It is branchES, plural.  There is no way that is speaking about the singular nation of Israel.  Besides, nations are neither saved nor condemned; only individuals are saved or condemned.
4WD, the CONTEXT of Romans 11 is dealing with the nation of Israel AS A NATION, not individuals. Besides not ALL of the nation was cut off, by the fact that Paul and others who were Jews by nature believed and were serving God.
Quote
Romans 11:1-6~"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
God, just as he did in Elias' day, he was doing in Paul's day reserving a remnant above the "profess" people of God, showing us that not all that was of Israel were indeed his chosen people. But now he has cut off the NATION that at one time was known to be his representative on earth as God's people as far as the world knew, (they knew nothing of God's secret election WITHIN an elect nation). We all know that they AS A NATION have been cut off, yet the very elect among them will NEVER be cut off because........
Quote
Romans 11:29~"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #37 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:01:14 »
Sorry Red but that is incorrect.  Individuals are broken off and grafted in.  At regeneration individual gentiles are CUT (not broken) from the tree of destruction and grafted into Israel.  (to become the commonwealth of Israel - Ephesians 2:12) BY the same token, individual Jews are BROKEN (not cut) due to unbelief. Paul is warning individual gentile believers to not be arrogant lest they be removed.
Greetings Dave~I think HISTORY is proving my understanding to be corect~ Israel as a nation are NO LONGER God's professed people on earth~the CHURCH IS, which are made up of Jews and Gentiles.
Quote from: DaveW  Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 12:40:51
As you said: "This is not difficult to see and understand."  You just have to leave off the OSAS filters that distort the meaning.
Dave, I do not hold to OSAS~for God's very elect can lose many precious promises are allotted to them to the degree they stay faithful to God. That being true, I do believe in OLAL..."Once loved, ALWAYS LOVED"~
Quote
Psalms 89:33-37~Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah."
I believe God that His oath and his promises of grace will NEVER be broken, impossible! My God cannot lie, the one you have been taught to believe in~ obliviously CAN LIE. You need to change Dave.

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #37 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:01:14 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #38 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:09:47 »
Greetings Dave~I think HISTORY is proving my understanding to be correct~ Israel as a nation are NO LONGER God's professed people on earth~the CHURCH IS
Red - that is the false teaching of replacement theology (aka supersessionsim) that has gripped the church for the last 1800-1900 years.  It is a lie straight from hell itself.

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #38 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:09:47 »
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Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #39 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:13:36 »
OSAS isn't the same as the Preservation of the Saints in TULIP.
TC, it's according to who you are talking to at a particular time~and then, even they most likely would accept BOTH preservation and perseverance of the saints. Myself, I would not make another brother offender over words. But, a true Calvinist believes you must persevere in the faith, yet they truly cannot really define exactly those terms biblically~because ALL of God's children faith are not the same and which means their practical righteousness will vary from one believer to another believer, which makes it very difficult to explain what they mean by using the word "perseverance"~ Preservation is so much easier to explain with the scriptures.

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #39 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:13:36 »



Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #40 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:21:08 »
Good post Reformer. The believer's security is conditioned upon his remaining close to the Savior.
How close is close? WHO determines that? So, you believe that when it is all said and done, your good works must outweigh your evil works~which truly everything we do SIN IS MIXED WITH IT. Do you not know that to be so?

In your gospel what place does Jesus have in getting you to heaven? Since it seems you place yourself as the determining factor of you inheriting eternal life.

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #40 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:21:08 »

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #41 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:38:26 »
Wrong.  Both "perseverance" and "preservation" of the saints are used in Calvinist circles for the same doctrine.
In the Calvinistic circles you correct, yet 4WD is correct when he said: "The P in TULIP is not preservation of the saints; it is perseverance of the saints.  They are not the same. ......"[/size]That's why folks like me prefer not to be called a Calvinist, even though if an unskill student of the scriptures asks if I'm of the Calvinistic persuasion I would say yes, to keep the conversation civil. 

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #42 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 05:42:49 »
That will always bring up the question, "How close is close?"  And you really have no answer for it.  For that is too much like the question, "How good do you have to be to get into heaven?"  I think the issue is really as simple as stated by Mark 16:16.  Believe and be baptized and be saved or disbelieve and be condemned.
I answered his post before I read this one. The latter part I have also answered above in a few words.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #43 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 06:05:23 »
4WD, the CONTEXT of Romans 11 is dealing with the nation of Israel AS A NATION, not individuals.

  And so all Israel shall be saved: .....For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins (Rom 11:26,27) 

So you think that is dealing with the nation of Israel.  Interesting,

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #43 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 06:05:23 »

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #44 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 06:09:21 »
Your interpretation of "rest" in the passages I proposed is way off the theological wall and collides with the core meaning of each scripture. But you can argue that out with Paul and the writer of Hebrews, who affirms...

    “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt” [Heb. 6:4-6].
Well, now, Paul is not here and you ARE, so it is your duty and your generation time to stand up and defend the truth, Paul served him, you need to serve yours. That's a cop-out~concerning Hebrews 6:4-6 I have already made my comments but will add more latter today.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 15:08:45
This belief system [Calvinism] is so vast, so detailed, so puzzling, so mystifying, and so cluttered with theological “odds and ends” that hardly any two of its adherents can reach a rational consensus. I know whereof I speak because a few years ago I joined a Calvinistic Yahoo discussion group on the Internet and remained on it for a lengthy period.
Sorry, but you do not know what you are even talking about. I've been in this movement since my mid-twenties and I'm almost 73 so, almost fifty years of studying behind these men of God~from Agustine to the Reformers (true Reformers btw, not wanna be) Samuel Richardson to Jonathan Edwards, to our days~which mostly is nothing more then milk-toast preaching in our days!
Quote from: Reformer Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 15:08:45
   I tried my utmost to “pin down” the Calvinistic contributors to this list, but without success. They hardly agreed among themselves. Quite a few of them, when looking for an “escape door,” distorted the very scriptures they professed to uphold—seemingly, as least as I saw it, knowingly and deliberately. Well, to make a long story short, they excommunicated me from the list. Some of them were ugly and rude, mean and disrespectful—and all in the name of the Lord.
Reformer, you are full of yourself~they excommunicated your DOCTRINE of another gospel where you exalt MAN'S WORKS over the obedience of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. I was not there, but I know what you believe by reading your "self-elevated" post of the past nine to ten years. You are stranded on an island by yourself with your microphone shouting out to the religious world of you being a Reformer yet your reformer beliefs lead to YOU not to Christ!
Quote from: Reformer Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 15:08:45
Are Calvinists my brothers in the Lord? Of course. However, they truly do need to drop the Calvinistic persuasion and place the totality of their allegiance in Jesus . The main thrusts of the Calvinistic belief system and Jesus’ precepts and principles are truly at odds.
You have no clue of what you saying. I would love to debate you on this one point:
Quote from: Reformer Reformer Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 15:08:45
place the totality of their allegiance in Jesus
And you "think" you do? I know otherwise.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #45 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 06:44:25 »
4WD, I did not make up the five different senses in which the words save/saved/salvation are used in the word of God,
Yes, you did. It certainly doesn't come from anything written in God's word concerning spiritual salvation.
Quote from: RB
A very quick consideration of Mark 16:16.  Saved in Mark 16 is used without question in a practical sense, not in regenerating sense~even within this very scripture~ this should be clear, and truly do not see why so many folks have trouble with this verse, even among particular Baptist.
Only to someone so completely misled by the false concept of Total Depravity.
Quote from: RB
Jesus made it clear concerning those that shall be damned are ONLY UNBELIEVERS, not those who were "not" baptized. Are there any here who would disagree with that? if so, then you truly have a bigger problem whereby it may keep you from ever seeing the truth Jesus is teaching us.
Here again, is a failure to understand simple [formal] logic.  Given the statement, If A and B then C, C is true only if both A and B is true. If either A or B is not true then C is not true. The more important question is whether it is  even possible that an unbeliever could be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?  I think that question was answered by Philip in his discussion with the Ethiopian eunuch, ever if verse 37 is rejected as authentic. The eunuch having been preached Jesus by Philip, asked a simple question.  That question would never have been asked by the eunuch except that Philip told him of its necessity.
Quote from: TB
The salvation in Mark 16:16 is a salvation of having a true biblical KNOWLEDGE of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
A salvation of having a true knowledge doesn't even make sense.  Salvation from what? Stupidity? Sorry, but even stupid people are not excluded from eternal life. 
Quote from: RB
Now, some have believed and may have never been baptized according to such scriptures just presented, ye they too will inherit eternal life,
You know that how, precisely?  Is there anywhere in the NT that actually says that? 

Offline Reformer

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #46 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 14:44:03 »
RB:

    "Reformer, you are full of yourself~they excommunicated your DOCTRINE of another gospel where you exalt MAN'S WORKS over the obedience of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. I was not there, but I know what you believe by reading your 'self-elevated' post of the past nine to ten years."

    Here, here, my brother, calm down before you blow a self-inflated tire or lose all of the air associated with your last bowl of pinto beans.

    I know the Calvinist precepts and dogmas from end-to-end—plus. I have dealt with various belief systems all of my life, but I must confess the Calvinistic belief system is among the most perplexing and multicolored I’ve had the experience of encountering.

    It is not that I have failed to decipher and give fair research into the many-sided facets of Calvinism. I truly have. But irrespective of my efforts through the years to grasp the doctrinal goals and teachings of my Calvinist brothers, I am still at a loss to “tie this belief system down” to a specific order of comprehensible and consistent components.

    Be patient as I give you another example. As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is “regenerated.”

    Hyper-Calvinists claim that he must be born again before he can come to the Lord. If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven’s testimony. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? He cannot. Note, please, Jesus’ words in John 7:17:

“If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

    But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.”

    However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] [Rom. 10:17]. The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation [repentance], and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” [Heb. 11:6].

    Enough for now, lest this post becomes too long.

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 21:48:00 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #47 on: Thu Apr 08, 2021 - 18:09:39 »
Not exactly true.  There is a final judgement of nations, not just individuals.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them
[nations, not individuals] from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

This is all on the basis of how these nations treated Israel. (the nation, not individual Jews) "...  to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me."
You've got it backwards.

The whole point of the sifting is that the sheep and goats are all mixed together! 

The goyim there include many sons of Abraham, identifiable by the fact that they behave like Abraham.  The Israel He was addressing included a bunch of people who weren't Abraham's children, but sons of "their father the devil."  Just read the rest of the book to confirm it.

The sorting is a matter of true sons and false.  Not political alliances.

Jarrod

Offline DaveW

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #48 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 08:18:28 »
You've got it backwards.

The whole point of the sifting is that the sheep and goats are all mixed together! 

The goyim there include many sons of Abraham, identifiable by the fact that they behave like Abraham.  The Israel He was addressing included a bunch of people who weren't Abraham's children, but sons of "their father the devil."  Just read the rest of the book to confirm it.

The sorting is a matter of true sons and false.  Not political alliances.
The greek word for "nations" supports either nationality or ethnicity. it does NOT support the idea of individuals. 

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #49 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 08:38:49 »
The greek word for "nations" supports either nationality or ethnicity. it does NOT support the idea of individuals.

From Strong
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

From Thayer
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from G1486

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #50 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 08:52:53 »
RB:

    "The entire lesson is of losing gospel privileges not losing eternal life in glory."

    Your interpretation of "rest" in the passages I proposed is way off the theological wall and collides with the core meaning of each scripture. But you can argue that out with Paul and the writer of Hebrews, who affirms...

    “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt” [Heb. 6:4-6].

    This belief system [Calvinism] is so vast, so detailed, so puzzling, so mystifying, and so cluttered with theological “odds and ends” that hardly any two of its adherents can reach a rational consensus. I know whereof I speak, because a few years ago I joined a Calvinistic Yahoo discussion group on the Internet and remained on it for a lengthy period.

    I tried my utmost to “pin down” the Calvinistic contributors to this list, but without success. They hardly agreed among themselves. Quite a few of them, when looking for an “escape door,” distorted the very scriptures they professed to uphold—seemingly, as least as I saw it, knowingly and deliberately. Well, to make a long story short, they excommunicated me from the list. Some of them were ugly and rude, mean and disrespectful—and all in the name of the Lord.

    Are Calvinists my brothers in the Lord? Of course. However, they truly do need to drop the Calvinistic persuasion and place the totality of their allegiance in Jesus. The main thrusts of the Calvinistic belief system and Jesus’ precepts and principles are truly at odds.

Buff

I agree with you in principle regarding Calvinists as brethren in Christ, but not in application.

Like you I participated in a live "bible study" moderated by a Calvinist gentleman.  He was a man of good character and gentle demeanor UNTIL one delivered a suitable and logical retort to his Calvinist assertions.   At that point he became a raving lunatic - literally.   Our study group met on Saturday mornings at a local Panera Bread restaurant.  On the last meeting I attended I presented a Biblical opposition to his assertion whereupon he SHOUTED his opposition.  Everyone in the restaurant turned to look at us.  The expressions on their faces was of disapproval and anger.   Is this what Calvinism is all about?  If a Calvinist cannot persuade by means of logic and Biblical proofs then one must cower at their loud maniacal rhetoric?  Like Hitler they attempt to use bombast to push their demonic dogma on everyone in listening range.

I have no authority to judge the eternal destiny of any man, especially one who claims Christ as his Lord and savior.  On the other hand, I don't have to accept their words or fellowship with them.   So I don't.

I consider the time I spent arguing and listening to be of value insofar as it showed me what was NOT the truth about Calvinism.  I discovered truth when I began to study the LAW, for apart from the LAW no one can be saved.   

The LAW does not itself save anyone, but it does point to One who does.   It points and gently persuades of SIN and shows the way to cleanliness before God - by the blood of Christ.   According to the LAW everyone who chooses to apply the blood of the Lamb to their lives will have death pass them by (read Exodus and the chronicle of Passover).  Even those few Egyptians who chose to apply the lamb's blood to the doors of their dwellings were granted life.  So it is today.  The process is not automatic nor pre-determined.  Those who receive the Lamb of God into their dwelling, their innermost heart and life, will be granted forgiveness and immortal life.   Those who don't will die in their SINs.

The LAW does not condemn those who commit no SIN, such as newborn children.  What child has committed murder, adultery, or lies?  If such a newborn child dies will it be condemned to hell simply because it was born human as the false doctrine of original sin dictates?  Or will an innocent child, who has NOT broken the LAW and who dies in its mother's arms, be granted immortal life BY THE LAW?   No Calvinist can give comfort to a grieving mother with their demonic doctrine, but the LAW can do so.  Likewise those who have grown to adulthood and have committed SIN by breaking the LAW can find forgiveness and salvation from the same LAW - that points to the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the world.

Neither condemnation nor salvation is automatic.  The responsibility for both is on us.   Blaming God for it one way or the other is the persuasion of fools.   Receiving salvation from God by choice is the blessing of Christ BY THE LAW.   Want to argue a Calvinist into the grave he or she has dug for themselves?  Know the LAW and quote it vigorously.   If it does not persuade them, they have made their choice have they not?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 08:56:19 by Choir Loft »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #51 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 09:06:49 »
The greek word for "nations" supports either nationality or ethnicity. it does NOT support the idea of individuals.

I agree with you in part.

Argument about the translation of foreign words in Greek or Latin or some vulgate not approved by the post-protestant church is an exercise in futility.  For truth we go to the Bible and the LAW it promotes.   For instance, the LAW says that salvation in Jesus is applied to ALL who accept it.

Jesus didn't die for you, personally.  Neither did He die for me, personally or anybody I know - personally.   Jesus died for all who will accept His sacrifice ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

The LAW provides for forgiveness of SIN.   When animal sacrifices were being conducted, bulls goats and pigeons were sacrificed or offered according to a complex litany of events and occasions.   Those sacrifices were made by individuals for their SINs (and other issues).   The Lamb was never prescribed for sacrifice by individuals.

The Lamb was offered once a year by the high priest (cohen ha-gadol) for the whole nation.  

On the night Jesus was betrayed the high priest Caiaphas prophesied that Jesus would "die for the nation".  THAT sacrifice is what is demanded by the LAW.   The Lamb dies for all who are a part of His kingdom. 
This is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God.   
He dies for all who will accept Him.

Additionally, the sacrifice of animals was imperfect because the animals were themselves mortal.   An immortal sacrifice of the Lamb of God who lives forever is the absolute fulfillment of the LAW.  It needed to be done only once and once done it applied to ALL who accepted it.(Matthew 5:17)
It is the LAW that tells us why things are done the way they are done, not some odd translation of books nobody can read.   The LAW is in every Bible everywhere.   

Read it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 09:14:26 by Choir Loft »

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #52 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 15:35:13 »
  And so all Israel shall be saved: .....For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins (Rom 11:26,27)

So you think that is dealing with the nation of Israel.  Interesting,
No I do not~"All Israel" is all AMONG the Jews and Gentiles! Sorry I just read this, or I would have answered earlier.

I'm finished for today~I'll answer others tomorrow, the Lord willing.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #53 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 20:12:16 »
Choir loft—-

“I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved ME and gave Himself for Me” (Gal. 2:20).  This verse can be said by EVERY believer. You are very wrong by saying Jesus did not die for us PERSONALLY. He most assuredly did. The very hairs of our heads are all numbered. We each possess unique DNA and fingerprints. GOD KNOWS EACH OF US PERSONALLY. He died for billions of people at once— but HE IS GOD, and when He died He died for each INDIVIDUAL person. That is why we tell sinners, “if you were the only sinner on earth, and everyone else was justified, Jesus would have still come down to die FOR YOU”. To alter that is tantamount to heresy. It is to lessen the LOVE God has for each PERSON on earth.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #54 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 20:28:57 »
We need to remember there is a PHYSICAL ISRAEL, and a SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. God is not done dealing with PHYSICAL ISRAEL. That is why in 1948 God brought them back to life. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were discovered a year before. They, and Israel, had been hidden for 2000 years!! Coincidence? NO. God has His own timing. He PROMISED ISRAEL would be brought to life again, and they were.

SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is made up of both Jews and Gentiles chosen before the creation of the world. Paul teaches us that in Romans 2. Especially verse 29.  God is doing two different things: He is dealing with PHYSICAL ISRAEL, and saving and bringing to completion SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

Note Hosea 11:1 “Out of Egypt have I called my Son”. God called Physical Israel out of Egypt. But God also called His only begotten Son out of Egypt. The verse has two interpretations. Matthew refers to it concerning Jesus. Hosea is referring to actual Israel, with a prophetic gaze towards the future when Jesus would be on earth.  Remember the Tabernacle and how when Israel carried it it was a representation of Christ? PHYSICAL ISRAEL is an earthly representation of Christ. God is not done with them yet.  The church is a SPIRITUAL REPRESENTATION of Christ.

It is VERY WRONG to say that God is not dealing with ISRAEL THE NATION. HE MOST CERTAINLY IS!

Offline Reformer

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #55 on: Fri Apr 09, 2021 - 22:10:31 »
fish153:

This is a little off the current topic, but I will add a few thoughts.

1] All believers, regardless of race, are the children of Abraham (Gal. 3:7, 26-29).
2] All believers, regardless of race, are God’s chosen children (Eph. 1:3-6, Titus 2:11-14).
3] All believers, regardless of race, are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, “a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9).
4]All believers, regardless of race, are the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16, 2 Cor. 6:16).
5] All believers, regardless of race, are currently in God’s spiritual kingdom or reign (Col. 1:13-14).
6] All believers, regardless of race, are called the circumcision (Phil. 3:3).
7] All believers, regardless of race, are called Jerusalem, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-12).

    National Israel today, as a nation, does not seem to fall under any of the categories listed above. Old Israel, because of rebelliousness and transgressions, was removed as God's favorite nation in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army ravaged her.

    God's new covenant people today composes His new Israel. "For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." [Paul, Gal. 6:16].

Buff

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #56 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 05:24:00 »
We need to remember there is a PHYSICAL ISRAEL, and a SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. God is not done dealing with PHYSICAL ISRAEL. That is why in 1948 God brought them back to life. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were discovered a year before. They, and Israel, had been hidden for 2000 years!! Coincidence? NO. God has His own timing. He PROMISED ISRAEL would be brought to life again, and they were.
So says the Premillennialist.  But it is not true. The Millennium is now.  We are living it now.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #57 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 06:22:13 »
It's not a matter of good works outweighing evil ones. It's a matter of clinging to the Savior through faith, hope and love. Good works will follow.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #58 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 10:15:17 »
Buff--  you missed my whole point. SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is made up of Jews and gentiles of every race and gender. The church is the Spiritual Israel of God. But God also is dealing with a PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL on earth. He made promises to them that He has kept and is still fulfilling.

Hosea 11:1 shows us this. There are TWO interpretations of the verse "Out of Egypt have I called my Son". It refers to EARTHLY ISRAEL. They were delivered from Egypt. And it also points forward to Jesus, whom God called back from Egypt also. Jesus is the HEAD of the church--Spiritual Israel. But there is still a NATION OF ISRAEL on earth that God is now dealing with-- reborn in May of 1948.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #59 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 10:17:13 »
4WD---
Completely untrue. We are not in the Millennium. If we were Satan would be in chains for a thousand years. He DEFINITELY is not chained at this point. You are misled.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #60 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 13:25:24 »
4WD---
Completely untrue. We are not in the Millennium. If we were Satan would be in chains for a thousand years. He DEFINITELY is not chained at this point. You are misled.
No, I am not misled.  I hesitate to post the following; it is long, probably much too long for a forum such as this.  But it clearly demonstrates that you do not understand what it means when it says in Revelation that Satan is bound.

The Binding of Satan

The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian’s heart; the binding of Satan.  The text says,

   1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time.  Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words ”binding of Satan” and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data.  If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth.  But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ’s first coming and is still abundant on the earth today.  Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?

The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well.  Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ’s first coming.  Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil.  1 John 3:8 says,  “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.”  Among Satan’s works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came “to testify to the truth” (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47).  He has already “abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim 1:10).

Jesus came not only to destroy Satan’s works but to “destroy” Satan himself.  Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time “so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil”  The word rendered “destroy” by the NIV (katargeo) does not necessarily mean “to annihilate, to abolish  completely.”  Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming.  But the word also can mean “to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless.”  This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ come to “render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.”

Either way this is very strong language.  John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil’s works;  Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless.  We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail?  Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter.  Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan’s works and rendered him powerless from “the binding of Satan” in Rev 20:1-3).  If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.

What about the expression, “the binding of Satan”?  Does this specific language appear elsewhere in Scripture”  The answer is yes.  In Matt 12:29 (and Mark 3:27) it is used to describe what Jesus was doing during his first advent.  Throughout Jesus earthly ministry he was already limiting Satan’s power, especially through his many victorious encounters with demonic spirits who had taken over people’s bodies.  By casting out demons Jesus was demonstrating his power over Satan’s kingdom; he was winding the chains around the devil’s neck.

Jesus made this very claim in connection with an exorcism recorded in Matt 12:22-30 (see Mark 3:22-27; Luke 11:14-23).  Here Jesus explains that in casting out demons he is not working with Satan but against him.  He uses the illustration of a strong man who is holding people captive in his house, and a stronger man who attacks and overpowers the captor and sets the captives free (Luke 11:21-22).  As he explains in Matt 12:29, “or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry of his property, unless he first binds the strong man?  And then he will plunder his house.” By casting out demons Jesus was already in the process of binding the devil (the “strong man”) during his earthly ministry.

Jesus also gave his disciples the authority to cast our demons (Matt 10:1).  In Luke 10:1-20 he sent out 70 evangelists with similar authority.  When they returned, they joyfully reported, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name” (Luke 10:17).  Jesus replied, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning” (Luke 10:18).  Satan’s “fall from heaven” here is not his prehistoric, initial sin; it refers to the defeat he was experiencing through Christ’s power at the hands of the disciples at that very time.  This is the same event described symbolically in Rev 12:7-9,

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.  The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.  And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Again this is not Satan’s initial sin, but his defeat at the hands of the Messiah at the latter’s first coming (Rev 12:1-6).

The death blow against Satan was struck in the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Gen 3:15; John 12:31-33; Col 2:15).  On the eve of his crucifixion Jesus announced his imminent mortal combat with the devil (John 14:30).  Through his own death he rendered Satan powerless (Heb 2:14), and through his resurrection the victory was complete.  The risen victor declares, “I am the first and the last, the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades “ (Rev 1:17-18).  The keys here are the same as ”the key of the abyss” in Rev 20:1.  A key is symbolic of power and authority.  Through his death and resurrection Jesus gained power over the abyss – realm of death, Satan’s proper domain; and with that power he both locks Satan himself in the abyss and rescues those who have been held captive there (Heb 2:15).  Revelation 20:1-3 thus symbolically represents Christ’s present control over Satan and his works, and the consequent limitation of his power.

Some will still be skeptical that “the binding of Satan” has been a reality since Christ’s first coming.  Again this is because they have created their own idea of what this should entail, i.e., the earth should be a perfect place, free from sin and filled with righteousness, peace, and prosperity.  But this is not how things have been.  So how can this be the millennium?  How can we accept the idea that Satan is bound now?  We can do this if we do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about the results of Satan’s binding.  Does the Bible actually say that this binding will result in a paradise-like world?  No.  In fact, Rev 20:3 states very specifically that the single purpose of Satan’s binding is “so that he would not deceive the nations any longer.”

The question is whether this was actually a result of Christ’s first coming, and the answer is yes.  Satan’s main activity is deception.  John 8:44 says, ‘he is a liar and the father of lies.”  Revelation 12:9 describes him, prior to his defeat at Christ’s first coming, as the one “who deceives the whole world,”  He is the source of lies, false teachings, false religions, and all idolatry.  With the exception of Israel, prior to Christ’s first coming the entire world – all nations as nations – was totally engulfed in Satan’s lies, languishing in darkness (see Rom 1:18-32).  But what happened when Christ came?  He accomplished the works of redemption, thus defeating the devil and his hosts.  The gospel  --  the good news about the saving power of Christ  --  is the gospel truth that dispels Satan’s lies and brings light and life to all the world (2 Tim 1:10),

This is exactly how the risen Jesus described Paul’s mission to the Gentiles, i.e., to the nations: “to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me” (Acts 26:18).  This tells us that prior to the preaching of the gospel, the nations were in darkness; they were the domain of Satan.  But as the gospel has been preached “to all the nations” in obedience to the Great Commission (Luke 24:47; see Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15), multitudes “from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” (rev 7:9) have been delivered from captivity to the devil.  In terms of Rev  20:1-3, the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the chain that binds Satan, so that is not able to deceive the nations any longer.

This does not mean that Satan is doing nothing today.  He still roams about, like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us (1 Pet 5:8).  But Christ has established a safety zone, as it were, a place where Satan has no power.  It is the church, which is the realm over which Christ reigns in his millennial kingship, a haven from the forces of death (Matt 16:18), and “the pillar and support of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15).  Anyone who accepts the truth of the gospel and surrenders to the Lordship of Christ is rescued from captivity to Satan and set free to live beyond the reach of his lying mouth and slashing claws.

The results of Christ’s initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals.  When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person’s life.  Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man’s house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29).  Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ’s liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations.  Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3, he is bound .  The millennium is now!


So then fish, go ahead and tell me what in the above I am misled.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #61 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 13:33:13 »
fish153:

    "Buff, you missed my whole point. SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is made up of Jews and gentiles of every race and gender."

    Yes, that's exactly what I said. The community of the redeemed is God's new Israel today. He has only one Israel, not two. Old Israel no longer exists. And National Israel is not Old Israel.

    The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Old Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King. God used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove Israel’s Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between.

    It was over—forever—for Israel as a nation! God had had enough of His one-time wife who persisted in spiritual adultery. They had become a stiff-neck people. “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers—you always resist the Holy Spirit” [Acts 7:51].

    Even Jesus foretold of the disaster that would come upon His one-time wife when He said, “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near...They [Jews] will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations” [Luke 21:20-24. Jesus made it plain that all this punishment that came upon the Jews was “in fulfillment of all that has been written” [v. 22]. The path of Old Israel as a nation had ended, never to rise again.

    But is God finished with Jews as a race? Absolutely not! No more than He is finished with Gentiles as a race. God has not forsaken Jews or Gentiles. He wants all of them to come to His Son for deliverance and salvation. My entire thrust has been that He is finished with the Jews as a holy people and nation or as a religious and political state. We ought to accept the reality that God has only one “Israel” today, and she is the family or one body of believers [Eph. 4:4].

Buff

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #62 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 18:21:42 »
4WD—-

That writer is purposefully avoiding such verses as 1 Peter 5:6, and Ephesians 6— along with MANY other verses which describe Satan prowling as a roaring Lion, and of the armor the Christian needs to wear to resist the devil. James even says “resist the Devil and he will flee from you. Unless you are prepared to say those verses do not apply to us. The writer, and you too 4WD are greatly deceived.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #63 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 18:50:26 »
Buff—-

You are greatly mistaken. The nation of Israel is very much the product of divine intervention. As I mentioned earlier Israel was born in one day as a nation in 1948. The Devil had tried to prevent it by killing 6 million Jews just years before this rebirth happened. The Devil knows the re-formation of National Israel is key to prophecy, and He TRIED to stop it from happening. Almost 2000 years had passed since Israel was a nation, but miraculously they were brought home.  At the same time, for 2000 years, the DEAD SEA SCROLLS were hidden in caves. Think of it!!! 2000 years and NO ONE found the scrolls??? Yet a little boy in 1947 tosses a rock into a cave and hears something break. The containers were close to the mouth of the cave.

God had PREVENTED anyone from finding those scrolls for 2000 years, until 1947!! One year before Israel became a Nation again. Coincidence?? The scrolls AFFIRM the veracity and preservation of God’s Word. If you want to “shrug” this off go ahead. But it shows without a doubt that God is DEALING with the Nation of Israel, and has KEPT HIS PROMISE to restore them to their Land.

We are deeply privileged to live at this time, and to SEE right before our eyes prophecy fulfilled. Zachariah lived to see Jesus born and rejoiced! Israel was reborn just seven years before I was born. I am living to see the nation of Israel restored. This is an AMAZING thing! And you are denying it’s importance. There are twelve tribes of Israel and twelve Apostles. God is clearly dealing with both the Church and the Nation of Israel.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #64 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 19:34:02 »

fish143:

    Just one more quick note. I have been acquainted with a personal friend and evangelist for decades who has done mission work in National Israel for years. He told me one day, and I quote, "Israel is 85 percent atheist."

    Assuming he is correct, and I have no credible reason to question him, and assuming you are correct regarding National Israel, then God is the Author and Supporter of an atheist nation. I cannot buy that.

Have a good weekend,

Buff

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #65 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 20:37:24 »
The greek word for "nations" supports either nationality or ethnicity. it does NOT support the idea of individuals.
But the phrase πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, which is what appears in the verse, can do that. 

The verse doesn't carry the idea of discreetly grouped nations lining up for judgment.  It carries the idea of one big pool of mixed-up people, and God is sorting them into two groups.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #66 on: Sat Apr 10, 2021 - 20:48:42 »
    National Israel today, as a nation, does not seem to fall under any of the categories listed above. Old Israel, because of rebelliousness and transgressions, was removed as God's favorite nation in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army ravaged her.
That's Judah.  Israel was destroyed 700 years earlier by the Assyrians.

No, they aren't the same thing.

Offline RB

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #67 on: Sun Apr 11, 2021 - 04:06:59 »
Buff--  you missed my whole point. SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is made up of Jews and gentiles of every race and gender. The church is the Spiritual Israel of God. But God also is dealing with a PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL on earth. He made promises to them that He has kept and is still fulfilling.

Hosea 11:1 shows us this. There are TWO interpretations of the verse "Out of Egypt have I called my Son". It refers to EARTHLY ISRAEL. They were delivered from Egypt. And it also points forward to Jesus, whom God called back from Egypt also. Jesus is the HEAD of the church--Spiritual Israel. But there is still a NATION OF ISRAEL on earth that God is now dealing with-- reborn in May of 1948.
My dear brother, allow me to add a couple of thoughts.

When I first came to Christ, all I heard was Israel after the flesh were God's chosen people.......... period, with no sense put upon that phrase. I begin reading and searching the word of God not just on that subject, but learning as much as possible about any subject that it had to do with religion in particular and what I was being taught by the two of the most popular preachers from 1935 up until I came to Christ in 1974 in my mid-twenties~Oliver B. Greene and Harold B. Sightler~where I went to bible college for just a few weeks which was enough for me to see this is not the place for me.

Brother after a short period of time, I begin to see holes in their fortress of faith, that could not be filled with any support from the scriptures, especially so from the apostles themselves who were Jews by nature and how they took OT scriptures and applied them to the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST~Israel/Judah being Gentiles and Jews. Also how they never ONCE gave Israel after flesh ANY HOPE outside of the TIMES OF CHRIST, which they called the LAST TIMES/DAYS. All the promises of God in the scriptures were given THROUGH CHRIST to Jews first, then to Gentiles. Even in the OT there were a few Gentiles that God shown mercy to, just as in the NT, there are a few Jews that also is of the Isreal of God, yet not many.

Your understanding is different than let us say Dave on the forum which he refuses to consider there is a spiritual Israel and those are the ONLY true Jews, that's, the one to whom God's promises of grace are for~ Being a natural Jews means not one thing in bible prophecy, other than, they are under the wrath of God, unless they prove otherwise by faith IN JESUS CHRIST and repent of being the main ones that killed the Prince of Peace~they MUST do this repenting during this present dispensation~for when Christ comes the second time it will be without sin~or being made an offering for sin, for this he did once, the second time will be for the gather togather those whom he had redeemed when he first came.... be they Jews of Gentiles.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 9:28~"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
THe Jews in Israel are NOT looking for him unless they have been born of God NOW in this present dispensation.

You at least see that there is a spiritual seed made up of Jews and Gentiles, what you truly need to reconsider is that there is NO PROMISE to anyone through a bloodline and there is no promise outside of this present dispensation in which we are now living to ANYONE. My prayer for you:
Quote
Ephesians 1:17,18~"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
THe saints are the apple of God's eyes, be they Jews or Gentiles, but it is not through a bloodline that one becomes the apple of his holy eyes. John 1:13
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 11, 2021 - 04:09:24 by RB »

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #68 on: Sun Apr 11, 2021 - 08:01:13 »
Mostly good stuff, RB.

Offline fish153

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Re: Fallen Believers & Restoration #2
« Reply #69 on: Sun Apr 11, 2021 - 18:30:53 »
Please read Romans 11. Verse 11 asks when talking about the Nation of Israel: "Have they fallen beyond recovery? Of course not!"  Paul reveals that their disobedience has led to our ability to be grafted in to the tree!"  And our grafting is to lead to their jealousy so they will return to Him.

Yes-- Israel at present is blind, and many are unbelievers. But the Bible promises that the WHOLE NATION will repent and return in ONE DAY.  No-- don't write off the nation of Israel. God still has amazing plans for them!

 

     
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