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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: BlessedCreator on Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 17:14:01

Title: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: BlessedCreator on Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 17:14:01
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

Matthew 7:14
"because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
was who He said He was.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven."

When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

1 John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Understanding faith and grace.
Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
Grace means the favor of God.
To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
start in the New Testament at the gospel of
Matthew, preferably in a King James Bible (link to PDF of complete KJB below) and read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.

(please note PDF files can contain contain viruses or malicious code, I believe the file is safe and have downloaded it myself, but make sure it is also safe for you)
http://gffg.info/Jesus/KJBPDF.html (dont worry it does not instantly download)
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: TrevorL on Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 21:18:49
Greetings BlessedCreator,

I appreciate what you have stated concerning the need to have faith, receive the grace of God in forgiveness and keep the commandments. Your final summary is perhaps a little bit short of what I would suggest though.
Quote
If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God, start in the New Testament at the gospel of Matthew, in a King James Bible (PDF above) and read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.
What I would suggest is that we need to here the Gospel that the Apostles preached and this is summarised by Luke in Acts 8:5-6,12 as the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ, and believing these things will motivate us to be baptised as did the Samaritans, and this baptism is an identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus Romans 6:1-8. This Gospel is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16-17 and we will also by the power of this faith in the Gospel be led unto obedience of the commandments. This sequence seems to be different to what you advocate.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 15:35:25
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

Matthew 7:14
"because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
was who He said He was.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven."

When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

1 John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Understanding faith and grace.
Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
Grace means the favor of God.
To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The above verse is not saying that baptism literally saves us. It is saying that by being baptized
you are keeping God's commandment which will allow you to begin to have a good conscience towards
God because of your obedience. Just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment, so also is baptism.
Continue seeking God's will in all that you do to continue with a good conscience toward God.

If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
start in the New Testament at the gospel of
Matthew, in a King James Bible (PDF above) and
read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 16:48:18
No one here is against those verses, that I know of.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 17:00:48
No one here is against those verses, that I know of.

He wouldn't be a Christian if he would be against those verses.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 17:02:37
So what was the point of posting those verses? Is someone denying them?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 17:24:14
So what was the point of posting those verses? Is someone denying them?

The OP suggest this as the narrow path to salvation:

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.


Except, if you don't have any objection to those OP statements.

So, I posted the verses, to somehow remind the readers to stay focus on what those scriptures says concerning the salvation of God. That the truth about salvation, for the Jew and the Gentile, is:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 17:38:01
If he disagrees with those verses so be it. I’m not sure he does though. Same as you think I don’t believe those verses.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 18:13:28
If he disagrees with those verses so be it. I’m not sure he does though. Same as you think I don’t believe those verses.

We Christians all believe all of God's words in scriptures. The matter is with understanding scriptures.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 18:43:42
Absolutely
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Johnb on Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 20:34:11
So we can only learn truth about God through the KJV ?  Lol
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 05:03:49
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved.
Greetings BlessedCreator, I see that you see the need to correct others misunderstanding of an important doctrine as "you" see it, and that's okay, just be prepared to defend what you think is imperative to correct others on....you just may find yourself defending an unscriptural position even though your intentions may be motivated by a zeal for the truth, one that itself needs correction, much like the Jews who opposed the apostles.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 10:1-4~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Sir, after reading your post (and it did not take me very long to see) your remind me that you are of this same category of men that have a zeal of God, but that zeal is not according to TRUE BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE how one gives EVIDENCE that he/she has the righteousness of God, or how that righteousness that is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ is obtained.
Quote from: BlessedCreator  on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 17:14:01
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.
It looks as though your article were copied and pasted~so I'm not sure if this is your words or you are just following someone else, and truly it matters little~ you by posting this are telling anyone that reads this that you believe this.
Quote from: BlessedCreator  on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 17:14:01
. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.
Sir, you are using the words salvation/save/saved with a swipe of a brush in a very limited sense, which is the means of leading that person into error concerning the doctrine of soteriology. Salvation is presented to us in the holy scriptures in a much BROADER SENSE~not just in the sense of being saved from sin and condemnation, which many limit the words "salvation/save/saved" using it only in that sense.  Time will not permit me to prove that it is used in at least five different senses in the bible~but can and will if needed.

Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED totally by Jesus' faith, righteousness, and obedience, for his people among both Jews and Gentiles. This phase of our salvation we added not ONE thing to this phase of our salvation, for it was ALL according to the will and GRACE of God~so to use the words HARD or EASY, as far as referring to us securing salvation from sin and condemnation is to wander off into a work gospel that man does in a "certain degree" have a part in receiving eternal life in the world to come. THIS phase of our salvation was SECURED 100% by Jesus Christ, and it WAS HARD for HIM, not us~proven by the great sweat of blood  (Luke 22:44..."as it were"...) that came from him as he was praying just before his death on the cross for the sins of his people. I do not think any of us have ever done this, not even close.
Quote
A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls.
You need to choose your words differently to be scriptural. Such as: "A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible in the practical phase of our salvation is a MUST in order for us to receive God's best for us while living in this world!"...... is required the evidence of all those that seek the salvation of their souls the world to come as promised by God to us THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ!

The way that you said it, is a gospel with WORKS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT! No two children of God are the same in their practical walk with God, if you believe otherwise then prove it. Once a person takes your route, then that route is very JUDGEMENTAL toward other believers, judging them to SEE if they live the same that YOU DO, believing the SAME doctrines that YOU DO. etc. etc. I know, been there and seen it over the years. Consider Abraham and Lot BOTH righteous before God~ yet so different in so many ways! Their WHOLE life from the beginning to the very end.
Quote from: BlessedCreator  on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 17:14:01
Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.
Coming back later to consider what you are saying here. So much error within these few short words.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 05:58:49
We Christians all believe all of God's words in scriptures. The matter is with understanding scriptures.
Oh so true.  And it would seem that you do not understand any of the scriptures that BlessedCreator posted in the OP.  Or you obviously think the scriptures you posted somehow negate or override all those posted in the OP.  I would, however, that the KJV is not the best English version of the Scriptures to study from.  Better to look to other more modern English verses.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 06:31:00
Sir, after reading your post (and it did not take me very long to see) your remind me that you are of this same category of men that have a zeal of God, but that zeal is not according to TRUE BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE how one gives EVIDENCE that he/she has the righteousness of God, or how that righteousness that is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ is obtained.
RB, I and several others here would make that very same statement about you and others whose soteriology lines up with yours.
Quote from: RB
Sir, you are using the words salvation/save/saved with a swipe of a brush in a very limited sense, which is the means of leading that person into error concerning the doctrine of soteriology. Salvation is presented to us in the holy scriptures in a much BROADER SENSE~not just in the sense of being saved from sin and condemnation, which many limit the words "salvation/save/saved" using it only in that sense.
And of course in that respect BlessedCreator is absolutely correct. Salvation/saved/saved when speaking of the spiritual is used only in the one sense of saved from sin and condemnation.  Your other four "difference senses" are pure concoctions ginned up to align with the false soteriology of the Reformed Theology.
Quote
Time will not permit me to prove that it is used in at least five different senses in the bible.....
You are correct that time will not permit you to prove your thesis of the five different senses because there are not five different senses when the subject is the saving of the spirit rather than the flesh; there is only one.
Quote from: RB
Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED totally by Jesus' faith, righteousness, and obedience, for his people among both Jews and Gentiles.
That is certainly true.  But then salvation for sin and condemnation was SECURED totally by Jesus' faith, righteousness, and obedience for the whole world, not just a few.  And here again we see your fallacy of Limited Atonement bubbly up from the mud pots of Reformed Theology.
Quote from: RB
The way that you said it, is a gospel with WORKS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!
But that is because you do not understand the way in which the word WORKS is used in Scripture, particularly the NT. You concoct five different meanings for the word "saved" as it is used in the spiritual sense, but insist there is only one possible meaning for the word "works".  You err in both.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Johnb on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 10:00:53
4WD I will go down this pig trail.  Yes it is amazing how some folks define works.  Belief is not a work hearing is not a work confessing is not a work repentance (changing your course) is not a work but letting someone dunk you in water somehow becomes a work.  Yet folks are told to just believe and say the “sinners prayer” something no one has been able to give me a definition of and even more important a single reference in scripture to a sinners prayer. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 11:24:34
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 18:13:28
We Christians all believe all of God's words in scriptures. The matter is with understanding scriptures.
Oh so true.  And it would seem that you do not understand any of the scriptures that BlessedCreator posted in the OP.

I would seem to you as such, as you would seem to me as such.

Or you obviously think the scriptures you posted somehow negate or override all those posted in the OP.

It's not about the scriptures that BC posted. Rather, it's his misuse of said scriptures.

The scriptures I posted, if you had read all my posts in this thread, as I said, was for this, and I quote:

Quote from: Michael Reply#6
So, I posted the verses, to somehow remind the readers to stay focus on what those scriptures says concerning the salvation of God. That the truth about salvation, for the Jew and the Gentile, is:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I know you believe those scriptures, as all Christians should. But, what do you hear these scriptures say to you?

I would, however, that the KJV is not the best English version of the Scriptures to study from.  Better to look to other more modern English verses.

No problem 4WD. Here's a more modern English version. If you prefer another, just say so.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 11:35:50
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Could you perhaps post all of that in 14pt or 18pt or 28pt and perhaps in more colors? As it is, I am afraid you are not getting your message across. Or maybe you could stick your head out the door and just scream out at the top of your lungs.  But then, most likely it is not the verses; rather it is your message that is failing.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 11:58:11
Could you perhaps post all of that in 14pt or 18pt or 28pt and perhaps in more colors? As it is, I am afraid you are not getting your message across. Or maybe you could stick your head out the door and just scream out at the top of your lungs.  But then, most likely it is not the verses; rather it is your message that is failing.

That is for emphasis and to get the attention of the reader. Do you need me to emphasize that even more to you? Perhaps not. Obviously it's effective the way it is, as proven by your post.

All you have going there is complain. First, the version. Now the size and colors.



Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 11:59:57
4WD I will go down this pig trail.  Yes it is amazing how some folks define works.  Belief is not a work hearing is not a work confessing is not a work repentance (changing your course) is not a work but letting someone dunk you in water somehow becomes a work.  Yet folks are told to just believe and say the “sinners prayer” something no one has been able to give me a definition of and even more important a single reference in scripture to a sinners prayer.

Baptism in water should not be a work, but it becomes one sometimes.  The 5 Steps of Salvation is just as biblical as the Sinner's Prayer.  Salvation is not a formula.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 13:19:25
That is for emphasis and to get the attention......
The actions of a spoiled little brat throwing a fit....  ::crackup::
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: lea on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 14:35:47
BlessedCreator  said:
Quote
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

Hi there!  Did you know that Jesus was referring to his kinsmen Jews when He said "few will find it?"

The narrow path was for His brethren at the time.  2/3  of the Jews were cut off at the time of God's wrath on them in AD 66-70. Only a remnant was saved so that they became believers in Christ , not the Law, in the end times of the old covenant Judaism.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Johnb on Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 15:24:45
Tex I am not promoting a formula or a 5 step plan just pointing out things not called works but draw the line at baptism. Yes being saved is not a formula it is belief and obedience to the best of your knowledge.  All the things I mentioned are in scripture.  The sinners prayer is not.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 03:43:08
BlessedCreator  said:
Hi there!  Did you know that Jesus was referring to his kinsmen Jews when He said "few will find it?"

The narrow path was for His brethren at the time.  2/3  of the Jews were cut off at the time of God's wrath on them in AD 66-70. Only a remnant was saved so that they became believers in Christ , not the Law, in the end times of the old covenant Judaism.


Please, keep those lies in own yard here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/~you guys by the time you labor to interpret everything into 66-70 A.D (a time period that has NO biblical sufficient)  there is NO BIBLE left to believe that it was written to EVERY saint throughout the church history untot he end of this "present" world

So, PLEASE as we would tell folks walking their dog KEEP THE DUNG in your own yard, and we will promise you not to walk therein for all of the landmines of lies!

You folks penknife God's word to pieces that do not support your doctrine and, not one scripture DOES! 70 A.D. is much like the secret Rapture lie, IF we have never heard of it, then we would never believe it from the scriptures for the simple reason IT IS NOT THERE, it's a lie from the pits of darkness.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 04:52:04
RB, I and several others here would make that very same statement about you and others whose soteriology lines up with yours.
Oh, without question, they would~BUT, making it and proving are two totally different things~now, you are wise enough to know this, so why not work to prove it, instead of coming out of your doghouse and barking just to be barking!
Quote from: A Preacher of the gospel of JESUS CHRIST who warned us against barking dogs
Philippians 3:1-4~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:"
Your "inordinate" affection for YOUR flesh has your mind blinded to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ to speak mildly. Those saints whose trust is in JESUS CHRIST ALONE have no confidence in their flesh which if understood would DEFINE WHAT ARE WORKS thereof that Paul and the word of God puts a cursed UPON for those seeking eternal life by their own works.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
And of course in that respect BlessedCreator is absolutely correct.
Well, let him defend what he has posted, and you can ADD to it if you feel he's correct. So, far, he has not done so.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
Salvation/saved/saved when speaking of the spiritual is used only in the one sense of saved from sin and condemnation.  Your other four "difference senses" are pure concoctions ginned up to align with the false soteriology of the Reformed Theology.
I have no clue what you mean when you said: "Salvation/saved/saved when speaking of the spiritual" and neither do you! Well, without question those words are NOT used in the same sense, for anyone believing they ae only shows their ignorance of the bible and if they refuse to even consider that it is, proves their disdain for TRUTH and even seeking it!

How would you apply this scripture:
Quote
Romans 13:11~"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."
WHAT salvation was nearer that Paul said that they had NOT as of yet OBTAIN? I know do you? How about this one, among hundreds, we could provide:
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
Matthew 1:21~"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall people from their sins."
What phase of our salvation is this speaking of which we had NOT ONE THING to do with? Need help, I'm pretty sure you do. But I'll wait. I could keep going for many hours, but we shall wait and see what you have to say.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
You are correct that time will not permit you to prove your thesis of the five different senses because there are not five different senses when the subject is the saving of the spirit rather than the flesh; there is only one.
Wishful thinking Mr. 4WD. Even you believe in TWO~what Christ did and made available to you and YOUR PART in being baptized FOR the remission of your sins...(using your words not mine)....both as you would word it~
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
is the saving of the spirit rather than the flesh
You added:
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
That is certainly true. But then salvation for sin and condemnation was SECURED totally by Jesus' faith, righteousness, and obedience for the whole world, not just a few.  And here again we see your fallacy of Limited Atonement bubbly up from the mud pots of Reformed Theology.
(Red highlights are mine for discussion~RB) So, are you areeging that the LEGAL phase of our salvation was SECURED by Christ's faith, righteousness and obedience when he said it is FINISHED? For that is INDEED the gospel in its purest and as taught in the holy scriptures.

Secondly, if what you are saying that Christ's obedience secured righteousness for every single person, then the JUSTICE of God MUST acquit every single person or God would NOT be just if the payment for sin has been paid IN FULL. That would be DOUBLE JEOPHARY and even man with all of his unrighteousness has laws AGAINST such a thing! We could spend a lot of time here. but we shall wait to add more later.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:31:00
But that is because you do not understand the way in which the word WORKS is used in Scripture, particularly the NT. You concoct five different meanings for the word "saved" as it is used in the spiritual sense, but insist there is only one possible meaning for the word "works".  You err in both.
Works as Paul opposed it is easily understood by me from his writings and I'm pretty sure I can defend it just as I can the different senses the words Salvation/save/saved are used in the bible. Your doctrine of baptism FOR the remission of sins is a WORK GOSPEL easily proven by such scriptures:
Quote from: Luke
Acts 15:1-2~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."
Let me ask you a question: is circumcision a work ADDED to the gospel of Jesus Christ?  Would you consider one being circumcized IN ORDER TO BE SAVED from their sins and the condemnation of God's law A WORK on their part?  It certainly is~well now, one being baptized IN ORDER TO BE SAVED from their sin is more than a work on that person' part than being circumcized~just compare the two and you tell me which ONE is more ACTIVE in participating in each activity? Without question, the one being baptized is much more active! Even though very close.   
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 05:33:40
Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, whether they be works or not works, it does not change the truth that salvation is of God and not of man, that salvation is by God's grace.

BRETHREN:

SALVATION IS NOT OF YOURSELVES.

SALVATION IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:(KJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,(ESV)




Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, whether they be works or not works, it does not change the truth that it is God who justifies and not man.

BRETHREN:

GOD WILL JUSTIFY THE JEW BY FAITH.

GOD WILL JUSTIFY THE GENTILE THROUGH FAITH.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.(KJV)

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.(ESV)
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 06:19:29
Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, whether they be works or not works, it does not change the truth that salvation is of God and not of man, that salvation is by God's grace.

BRETHREN:

SALVATION IS NOT OF YOURSELVES.

SALVATION IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:(KJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,(ESV)




Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, whether they be works or not works, it does not change the truth that it is God who justifies and not man.

BRETHREN:

GOD WILL JUSTIFY THE JEW BY FAITH.

GOD WILL JUSTIFY THE GENTILE THROUGH FAITH.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.(KJV)

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.(ESV)

Michael,Just one question. What is Gods grace and how is it applied if not by "Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience," according to scripture just how does one come into the grace of God??
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 06:22:18
Is not Gods grace simply his preordained plan to save mankind and his instructions on how one is to enter into that grace?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 06:29:56
That ‘s why we see it as God saving us and the other side sees it as Oh my God, you think you save yourself. Centuries old debate over the basics of God’s grace.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 06:52:47
Michael,Just one question. What is Gods grace and how is it applied
Yogi, I will allow Michael to answer this in-depth, but I will give you a "one-word" answer.  Election~
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Romans 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Quote from: yogi bear on: Today at 06:19:29
if not by "Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience," according to scripture just how does one come into the grace of God??
These things are the EVIDENCE that God's grace has been freely given to us according to the riches of his MERCY to us THROUGH and on the BEHALF OF Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 07:13:27
Yogi, I will allow Michael to answer this in-depth, but I will give you a "one-word" answer.  Election~These things are the EVIDENCE that God's grace has been freely given to us according to the riches of his MERCY to us THROUGH and on the BEHALF OF Jesus Christ.
Red with all due respect I have to say it appears you do not understand the biblical meaning of " Election" as well as how one is elected.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 07:59:37
Oh, without question, they would~BUT, making it and proving are two totally different things~now, you are wise enough to know this, so why not work to prove it, instead of coming our of your doghouse and barking just to be barking!
And you think you also do anything but bark??
Quote from: RB
Your "inordinate" affection for YOUR flesh has your mind blinded to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ to speak mildly. Those saints whose trust is in JESUS CHRIST ALONE have no confidence in their flesh which if understood would DEFINE WHAT ARE WORKS thereof that Paul and the word of God puts a cursed UPON for those seeking eternal life by their own works.
And that is the perfect example of your barking.  RB, I have never ever said, nor even suggested, that anyone can seek eternal live by their own works.  That you continue to repeat that again and again is among the loudest barking to appear hear at the forum.
Quote from: RB
I have no clue what you mean when you said: "Salvation/saved/saved when speaking of the spiritual" and neither do you! Well, without question those words are NOT used in the same sense, for anyone believing they ae only shows their ignorance of the bible and if they refuse to even consider that it is, proves their disdain for TRUTH and even seeking it!
Oh but I do know what I mean.  It is you, RB, who are so confused that you have no way to know whether or not you have been saved, spiritually.  That is one of the fundamental fatalities of the Reformed Theology.  If indeed salvation, in whatever way you want to think of it, is a state of being preordained by God "without any consideration of merit within the individual", then there is no consideration of merit within the individual that would demonstrate or establish that state of being.  Now that is fact.

There is only one way to understand spiritual salvation for any one individual at any instant in that individual's life.  If at any instant in the life of an individual he were to die he would at that instant be delivered from the consequences of his sin, i.e, eternal condemnation, into the eternal life with Christ in heaven.

Concerning Romans 13:11, you asked.
Quote from: RB
WHAT salvation was nearer that Paul said that they had NOT as of yet OBTAIN?
The salvation that I defined above fits perfectly to the salvatoin that Paul was speaking of in Romans 13:11.  And that definition and understanding of salvation, when speaking of the spiritual, fits perfectly with every mention of salvation throughout Scripture.

All of your attempts to define this phase or that phase is pure poppycock; it is a thrashing around in a sea of confusion about what the salvation of the soul (the spirit) is.  The definition and meaning that I presented serves perfectly for the salvation that Paul spoke of in Romans 13:11 and it serves perfectly for those Matthew spoke of as being saved from their sins in Matthew 1:21.  It serves perfectly whether you wish to think about it retroactively to the past or actively to the present and future.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 08:19:34
Hi lea,

Your comment #20 deserves manna.  It’s quite true that the “narrow path” to salvation with “few” that found it applied ONLY to the REMNANT of the ETHNIC JEWS in that first-century generation.  This was NOT intended to put an all-time-and-forever narrow limit on salvation for ALL mankind.  If it were, we would not have God testifying that He intended to “bring MANY SONS INTO GLORY” (Heb. 2:10), or that Christ was the “Firstborn among MANY BRETHREN” (Rom. 8:29). 

Also, we would not have John testifying of his vision in Rev.7:9 of a “GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues”, standing in God’s presence.  And this unnumbered multitude only represented the number of those coming out of “The great tribulation” -  this unnumbered multitude was only a FRACTION of the total number of all the children of God from creation forward who had NOT passed through the Great Tribulation period of AD 66-70.

So, a “great multitude which no man could number” was an amount that would eventually be multiplied many times over - hardly a matching description for the other group of the “FEW” who would attain salvation through that “narrow gate”. 



To my dear brother RB,

You and I are in agreement concerning the several aspects of salvation that scripture presents - not just one sense of it.  But I would have to part company with you when you limit salvation’s total numbers to a total of only a “few” coming through a narrow gate.  That is because scripture definitely gives us more optimistic amounts for the vast number of those who will attain salvation in the complete sense that ends in a glorified condition of body, soul and spirit in heaven.

You have said that you believe that brethren can differ in their doctrinal knowledge without forfeiting that final state of salvation, (such as Abraham and Lot).  You have said that we cannot be judgmental of those that differ in this manner.  If you truly believe this, then why are you pouring such judgmental vitriol on lea’s comment regarding the “narrow gate” that applied only to Isaiah’s remnant of the Jews, that Paul said was then present in his days (Rom. 9:27 and 11:5)? This makes you appear double-minded, brother.  Either you believe in practicing mercy to those who differ from you in your understanding of scripture, or you don’t.

Simply because lea and I hold to Preterist doctrines (of varying kinds) does not require that we post ONLY in the Preterist forum.  Many NON-Preterists post frequently and regularly in that forum, so the same liberty applies to Preterists posting in other forums as well. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 08:26:30
Yogi, I will allow Michael to answer this in-depth, but I will give you a "one-word" answer.  Election~These things are the EVIDENCE that God's grace has been freely given to us according to the riches of his MERCY to us THROUGH and on the BEHALF OF Jesus Christ.
There is not a single person in all of history that you can point to where those things establish that God's grace has been given.  You cannot even point to those things as assurance that God's grace has been given you, let alone anyone else. That is because, the first question that must be asked is, "How much hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, etc. does it take to provide the evidence that God's grace has been freely given?"  And you have no answer because there is no answer.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 08:50:34
Michael,Just one question. What is Gods grace and how is it applied if not by "Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience," according to scripture just how does one come into the grace of God??

God's grace applied?

God gives grace. It is not applied.

What is God's grace?

I'll give the shortest, but most direct and clearest answer to that ~ JESUS CHRIST.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 09:14:17
Is not Gods grace simply his preordained plan to save mankind and his instructions on how one is to enter into that grace?

That ‘s why we see it as God saving us and the other side sees it as Oh my God, you think you save yourself. Centuries old debate over the basics of God’s grace.

No sirs.

Instructions on how one is to enter into that grace? What does that even mean ~ enter into that grace? Grace is unmerited and is freely given to all that God had chosen to give it.

Instructions on how one is to enter into that grace?  Is not the eating of the fruit of only one tree among the many food trees given by God to Adam, the father of all humankind, not a very very simple and very very easy instruction to keep and obey? Tell us then how was it that the innocent Eve and Adam failed to follow such instruction of God? Are you saying you are different from whom you came from? Are you any different from the tree whence you came from? If you came from an apple tree, and so a fruit thereof, will you not be an apple? And if you are, will you not become to be an apple tree like your parents? And if you will be, will you not bring forth fruit, that is, apples? Well, nature does not lie.

Now, do you expect yourself or any, of the kind of Adam, born of the humankind, who already also had failed like Adam and Eve, to follow those instructions of God you are referring to on how one is save himself or how one is saved, when Adam and Eve, were not able to keep the ONE SINGLE very very simple and easy instruction that God gave, that involves life and death?

What do you say?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 09:48:01
Okay Michael lets try this again. What is the grace of God? Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Can you answer that plain and simple just what does the grace of God mean?

It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:07:24
There is not a single person in all of history that you can point to where those things establish that God's grace has been given.

The elect Christian. The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.

You cannot even point to those things as assurance that God's grace has been given you, let alone anyone else.

And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?

That is because, the first question that must be asked is, "How much hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, etc. does it take to provide the evidence that God's grace has been freely given?"  And you have no answer because there is no answer.

How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:27:22
Okay Michael lets try this again. What is the grace of God? Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Can you answer that plain and simple just what does the grace of God mean?

It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Well, perhaps my answer does not get across to you because you have a different answer which you expect would be my answer.

yogi: Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Answer: No. What grace that we are talking about is not a plan really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam.

yogi: It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Answer: No. The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.   
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:11:24
Well, perhaps my answer does not get across to you because you have a different answer which you expect would be my answer.

yogi: Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Answer: No. What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam.

yogi: It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Answer: No. The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.   
So with this "What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam." you are wanting me to believe that the grace of God is not salvation and is not for all but only for a select few but to them it is salvation that God unconditionally gives them while rejecting all the rest of mankind?

Does that not contradict the following scripture?
 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does all men mean if as you say only a select few?

Then you go on to say "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.  "

Grace is Gods Plan to save and which does has conditions as seen in the very verse you started this debate with.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace (Gods plan to save you) ye are saved through faith How through faith (believing);and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( not because of you but because God made the way)

And again
 John 3:16 (KJV)
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One has to have faith it is a condition set before the world began that one has to believe in Christ to be save God gives you that choice and does not make it for you. If God made it for you then all scripture commanding belief would be unnecessary and confusing to mankind.

Gods grace is his plan to redeem mankind plan ans simple.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:16:15
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 Michael, Here faith is being used to refer to the Gospel message as in Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:18:09
The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.
That is not evidence.  I defy to identity a single Christian anywhere based upon those criteria.
Quote
And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?
Again, that is not evidence based up the criteria presented; rather the evidence is simply the statement by Scripture.
Quote
How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
And just how do you know when someone has heard the words of God? Let me guess, you know they hear the words of God when they agree what you.

I cannot believe that you even posted any of that.  Once again, Michael, you demonstrate a complete lack of rational thinking.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 13:17:19
So with this "What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam." you are wanting me to believe that the grace of God is not salvation and is not for all but only for a select few but to them it is salvation that God unconditionally gives them while rejecting all the rest of mankind?

If there is anything that I wanted for you to believe is not my words nor anybody's words, but God's words, like in the following:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:(KJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,(ESV)


AND

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.(KJV)

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.(ESV)

It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.

Does that not contradict the following scripture?
 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does all men mean if as you say only a select few?

That question and argument had been given almost every time this subject comes up. And I had addressed and rebutted that each and every time as well. Instead of doing that again here, let me throw in a question in like manner.

Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?

Then you go on to say "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.  "

Grace is Gods Plan to save and which does has conditions as seen in the very verse you started this debate with.

So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace (Gods plan to save you) ye are saved through faith How through faith (believing);and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( not because of you but because God made the way)

You actually expose your error, addition or modification of what the verses says, in the parenthesis.

And again
 John 3:16 (KJV)
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One has to have faith it is a condition set before the world began that one has to believe in Christ to be save God gives you that choice and does not make it for you. If God made it for you then all scripture commanding belief would be unnecessary and confusing to mankind.

Gods grace is his plan to redeem mankind plan ans simple.

Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 13:20:31
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 Michael, Here faith is being used to refer to the Gospel message as in Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

I disagree. But that is for another topic.

My point in citing Romans 3:30 is to show that it is God who justifies and not man. So it is, God's work, not man's. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:06:22
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:07:24
The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.
That is not evidence.  I defy to identity a single Christian anywhere based upon those criteria.

Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied? If you need two or five or ten, just say. But I am afraid you might not know the names and you'll just end up complaining and rejecting.

Quote from: Michael
And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?
Again, that is not evidence based up the criteria presented; rather the evidence is simply the statement by Scripture.

It's evidence 4WD. You just don't want to accept them as evidence. If there is any evidence that I can point to that speaks the truth is scriptures. But if you don't accept that, there's nothing I can present you that you would accept.

Quote from: Michael
How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
And just how do you know when someone has heard the words of God? Let me guess, you know they hear the words of God when they agree what you.

I cannot believe that you even posted any of that.  Once again, Michael, you demonstrate a complete lack of rational thinking.

When he or she believes the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And of course, expectedly, your signature lack of rational thinking excuse. You don't even realize what that makes of you whenever you do and say that.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:33:45
Quote
It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.

What I am suggesting there is that you are totally confused what the grace of God is.  God wants all men to come to the faith. God gives man the means to do so. God does not force the hand of any man it is there choice to make. God sent Christ to be the way that is the grace.

Quote
Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?

Easy all means all all of mankind God wants All to come to repentance

Quote
So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Yes I do see a lot of contradiction to what scripture says and what you are saying and I have pointed it out clearly just you cant understand because of your preconceived ideals on the matter.

Quote
Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is believe the word of God The gospel call.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:56:17
To my dear brother RB, ...................

Either you believe in practicing mercy to those who differ from you in your understanding of scripture, or you don’t.

Simply because lea and I hold to Preterist doctrines (of varying kinds) does not require that we post ONLY in the Preterist forum.  Many NON-Preterists post frequently and regularly in that forum, so the same liberty applies to Preterists posting in other forums as well.

You are right and I'm wrong please accept my apology. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 15:44:14
Quote from: Michael
It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.
What I am suggesting there is that you are totally confused what the grace of God is.  God wants all men to come to the faith. God gives man the means to do so. God does not force the hand of any man it is there choice to make. God sent Christ to be the way that is the grace.

So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.

Quote from: Michael
Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?
Easy all means all all of mankind God wants All to come to repentance

Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?

Quote from: Michael
So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Yes I do see a lot of contradiction to what scripture says and what you are saying and I have pointed it out clearly just you cant understand because of your preconceived ideals on the matter.

This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.

Quote from: Michael
Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is believe the word of God The gospel call.

That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:11:58
Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied?
So how do you know Paul was saved?

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:20:51
It's evidence 4WD. You just don't want to accept them as evidence. If there is any evidence that I can point to that speaks the truth is scriptures. But if you don't accept that, there's nothing I can present you that you would accept.
Of course the scriptures are the evidence of anyone stated to have been saved was saved.  But that is not what either you or RB said. That is not what is being discussed as evidence.  Dare I say that it is your irrational thinking that doesn't even understand that?






Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 17:05:20
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 14:06:22
Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied?
So how do you know Paul was saved?
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 17:21:44
Of course the scriptures are the evidence of anyone stated to have been saved was saved.  But that is not what either you or RB said. That is not what is being discussed as evidence.  Dare I say that it is your irrational thinking that doesn't even understand that?

4WD, these are such as what RB said to be the EVIDENCE that God's grace has been freely given to a person (of course the elect):  Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience ~ coming from reply #28.

Now you said "There is not a single person in all of history that you can point to where those things establish that God's grace has been given.  You cannot even point to those things as assurance that God's grace has been given you, let alone anyone else."

I gave you Paul. Do you not believe that God's election of grace was given to Saul? Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?


Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:01:13
Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?
Michael, what you have is the scriptural evidence of the Paul's hearing, repenting, etc.  There is nothing in the Bible that identifies Paul's hearing, repenting, etc, as evidence of his being saved.  In fact, just the opposite. It identifies Paul's, and others similarlly, hearing repenting, confessing, baptism etc. as the occasion for his being saved.  And there is not a single word about Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. being evidence of his "election".





Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:06:45
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?
If by the Holy Spirit telling you so, you mean the scriptures, then yes.  But the evidence is the scriptures telling you that.  In fact it was in his hearing, even seeing, believing, repenting and being baptized that he was saved, i.e., he was quickened, i.e, made alive spiritually.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:16:30
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? 
Yes, having faith is dependent upon hearing the word about Christ; or in today's world at least having the Bible available to be read, studied and learned. That is what it says.  That is what it means.  You cannot believe in something that you have never heard of.  In this day and age, there are two ways, and only two, to hear the word about Christ; those are  someone preaching to you or you reading the Bible.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 03:12:33
Quote
So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.
Michael, I have answered this you just don't hear. God does not do as you say that is only in your head the scriptures plainly teach that God wants all to be saved and has sent Christ to make it possible. All that believe the the Gospel call and respond are his elect. God has made a new covenant with us these days and a has laid out how we are to enter into that covenant.Only in your distorted thinking is anything said the way you are trying to say it. It is not scriptural the way you lay it out. To many scriptures say one has to believe or one has to repent ext ext so you need to rethink your line of reasoning.







Quote
Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?
No Michael it is your lack of reasoning that you can not understand what I said. Salvation is not universal it is a covenant between man and God and means by which one enter in.



Quote
This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.
""The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not." Yes Christ did that very thing THe DB&R is the jest of the gospel call. It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.

'Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Michael I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like you are saying that God Gave Adam a choice and he chose rebellion. That because Adam sinned we all cannot help but do the same. if so you are partly right. WE all sin but not because Adam but because of our own weakness but we can chose to obey the gospel call and strive to live in the spirit. Yes salvation was always offered to all. Even Adam was reconciled.









Quote
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?
Yes Michael that is correct In Matthew 28:18-20 that is what Christ told he apostles to do and this day is our work to do also.
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV)
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I can not believe you had doubts about that it is plainly taught in the word.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:34:44
Red with all due respect I have to say it appears you do not understand the biblical meaning of " Election" as well as how one is elected.
I'll spend a little time today answering the post to me as time permits, do have a couple of meetings but overall should be free. Sorry, I have not been that active, I'm certainly not avoiding anyone.
Quote
Red with all due respect I have to say it appears you do not understand the biblical meaning of " Election" as well as how one is elected.
Thank you for the respect, the same back to you, and to all others that post in sincerity and a love for the truth. God knows who you are even though we do not at times and truly that is not our job to judge even though at times we are strongly tempted to do so.

Yogi, that's a bold statement by you, which I will not allow it to pass without pushing you to prove your statement. Yogi, my friend, I'm pretty convinced that I do, maybe more so than Mr. Yogi does in believing that I do not understand the meaning of election of GRACE, as well as how that election is defined by God Himself. My (and anyone else) understanding MUST be according to how God defines election of grace, and not of WORKS~which is done by Paul for us~let us consider this. 
Quote from: Paul defining the doctrine of God's UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION OF GRACE APART FROM ALL WORKS IN CONSIDERATION THEREOF
Romans 11:4~"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
But what saith the answer of God unto him."
Just when the prophet thought that he was the only one left serving God~God answered Elijah in Ist Kings 19:18, when He revealed to the despaired prophet that he had an elect remnant of faithful men. After telling Elijah how he would participate purging the land, God will described to him the remnant and just how that came about! Consider carefully this is part of the conversation God had with Elijah with the still small voice (Ist Kings 19:12-13).

"I have reserved to myself"~Election is God’s reservation of men to Himself, not at all their placing of reservations with Him..... BIG difference Yogi, and please take note and refute IF you think you can which beware it is GOd's word that you are disputing NOT MINE, I'm just repeating what is written.

Yogi, by nature we would all rush with unmitigated zeal after sin, wickedness, and death without grace PROVEN by these words before us. Israel had shown its true character of wickedness many times; only God could save any of them. God had elected a remnant of Israelites in other generations (9:25-29).
God makes the election or reservation of some for Himself, not for them, their need, or request.

"Seven thousand men"~.No women or children are mentioned, though they were likely included in this many families. "SEVEN"~A round number of Biblical significance of a small remnant in a nation of maybe a million or more known ONLY by God.

"Who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal"~Though the national religion and there would have been great pressure and persecution to do so. God’s words to Elijah included, “And every mouth which hath not kissed him” (Ist Kings 19:18).
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Roamns 11:5~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

"Even so then at this present time also"~Just as God had reserved a group of Israelites in Elijah’s day, He had done the same in Paul’s day. The combination of “even so” and “also” indicates that God had done what He had done earlier. Which is a GIVEN, because UNLESS God elected some, then NONE would have ever come on their own!

A remnant is a small leftover portion of a larger whole e.g. curtain or carpet remnants (Exodus 26:12). Paul had appealed to the scriptures earlier for examples of remnant election in Israel as we noted above. (9:25-29). God’s answer to Sennacherib and Assyria involved His blessing of a remnant (2nd Kings 19:30-31). We SHOULD grasp the incredible blessing to be chosen and loved by God as a remnant (2nd Thessalonians 2:13)!

"According to the election of grace"~God reserving men to Himself can only be by grace, for the choice is His without any human merit. Yogi, IF you believe otherwise, then prove your position, which I KNOW taht you cannot, and most likely will not. But, we shall see and I trust you truly will attempt to do so.

God’s election of men to salvation in Christ is for the praise of the glory of His grace per Paul~(Ephesians 1:3-6). Whether one or many, as with Noah (Genesis 6:7), God’s choice to show mercy is all of grace (9:15).
Quote from: Paul
Romans 11:6~"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. And if by grace.
It is by grace, demerited favor, but the apostle wisely chose to proceed in a definitional argument. Their salvation, and our salvation, is by grace, but it is helpful to define and analyze grace in detail.

"Then is it no more of works"~.If it is by grace, then works cannot at all be involved, for the definition of grace is unmerited favor. Paul had taught earlier in this section about Israel that God’s mercy was by His will only (9:15-16).

"Otherwise grace is no more grace"~If works were involved, then it could not be by grace, for the definition of grace excludes works. Yogi if you think the language here to be a tautology or trite, you do not appreciate grace against works.

"But if it be of works"~.SALVATION from sin and condemnation is not by works, earned wages, but Paul simply chose to proceed in his definitional argument. Their salvation, and our salvation, is not by works, but it is helpful to define and reject works. If you have a definition better then give it, or prove that our defintion is wrong.

"Then is it no more grace"~ If salvation form sin and condemnation is by works, then grace cannot be involved, for the definition of work is to earn by debt. Yogi and all others~Works and grace are completely and entirely antithetical, as Paul had earlier taught (4:4). This is not taht hard to grasp and follow UNLESS a person has a bais to protect and serve.

"Otherwise work is no more work"~If grace were involved, then it could not be by works, for the definition of works excludes grace.

Thus the apostle gives us one of the clearest examples of grace and works to found anywhere.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:45:22
It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.
So wrong~the gospel of Jesus Christ is offered to NO ONE~the gospel is a good news of a DECLARATION of a FINISHED SALVATION SECURED for God's elect by his ONLY begotten Son, JESUS CHRIST proclaimed among ALL NATIONS, kindred, tongues and people. Those who are called of God believe this wonderful, glorious, message of FREE GRACE. If just offered then NONE would ever come, not a single one. How in the world can one just OFFERED deliverance to a person IN BONDAGE to sin and the devil? A person GREATER than the one holding a person in bondage must OPEN the prison doors to those bound, and set them FREE.....or else, they shall stay in bondage. Luke 4:18!
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:56:38
Red just what is that grace???
Is it not the DB&R?? Is that not the heart of the gospel??

God did that all on his own yes no man merited anything in the giving of Christ as our savior that was solely the work of God.

That does not negate the fact that he ask of us to respond to the grace he offered.

To many scriptures tell us that we must have faith we must believe in the grace offered us that is a condition that is set for us to chose.

To many scriptures say we must repent without repentance we have no way to receive the grace ghat is offered. 

Just because we are asked to respond to the gospel call in no way makes it work for salvation but merely submission to our Lord and savior.

Grace is Gods redemption work on mankind. It is the gospel call to all men to come to faith. It has conditions for it is not universal.

If it was not conditional there would be no need of scriptures asking for belief and repentance and such but yet there are many so no God does not just select a few but the offer is to all  Acts 2:39-40 (KJV)
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:14:52
Concerning yogi's statement about your views on election, you said:
I'll spend a little time today answering the post to me as time permits,
Perhaps before doing so you could review the topic The Elect started by yogi some time ago.  And I would ask particularly that you would review the following

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-elect-104809/msg1055149684/#msg1055149684
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:16:30
Red Let me ask this but first a little background.

We all know that Peter (by the power of the spirit) preached the completed gospel of Christ for the first to the public in Acts 2.

His sermon was more or less The DB&R what Christ came to do and how he was received by them.

When they realized that Christ was the messiah and what they had done and ask what shall we do how would you answer that??

If you can answer this scriptural and honestly we may break some ground otherwise we are going no where.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:21:27
Quote
So wrong~the gospel of Jesus Christ is offered to NO ONE~

Acts 2:39-40 (KJV)
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:18:00
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 17:21:44
Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?
Michael, what you have is the scriptural evidence of the Paul's hearing, repenting, etc.  There is nothing in the Bible that identifies Paul's hearing, repenting, etc, as evidence of his being saved.  In fact, just the opposite. It identifies Paul's, and others similarlly, hearing repenting, confessing, baptism etc. as the occasion for his being saved.  And there is not a single word about Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. being evidence of his "election".

Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?

Your position and belief is that the hearing, repenting, etc. are the occasions for Paul's being saved. My position on the other hand is that, the occasion for his being saved is him having been chosen by God. For if God had not chosen him, he would had been left doing about what he was doing, that is, persecuting the church, and he would not had been saved.

His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect. One's election unfolds, such as that of Saul's, and comes about in God's own time and manner. And when it comes, one will find himself, as Saul had, fully convicted and convinced in his/her heart by God of the truth, that he finds himself even with the strength and ability to repent from his wicked way of life, from his life-long religion, thoughtless and careless of what his loved ones (his parents perhaps, sisters, brothers, relatives, and friends) would tell him or even if he will be rejected by them, that he voluntarily turns to God and believe in Jesus Christ, without any bit of hesitation nor resistance. That happened to Paul. I believe, as I said, one's election unfolds, such as that of Saul's, and comes about in God's own time and manner. Every elect had a story to tell to the glory of God.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:31:16
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 17:05:20
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?
If by the Holy Spirit telling you so, you mean the scriptures, then yes.  But the evidence is the scriptures telling you that.  In fact it was in his hearing, even seeing, believing, repenting and being baptized that he was saved, i.e., he was quickened, i.e, made alive spiritually.

I had addressed your contention there in my reply #61.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:47:00
Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?
Only God knows what is actually in the heart of anyone.  You can look for clues, you can observe how he lives, how he acts, what he says.  But you can never actually determine whether he is saved or not. One of my most precious friends was one who more than most exhibited the evidence you look for as being saved.  It would not be until you asked him about it, could you really know.  He believed in God.  He did not believe God when God says that Jesus was His Son and was our Redeemer.  He was, according to the definition, a deist.  My point is, and it saddens me to this very day, that He did not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  He was a disbeliever.  But in terms of being a good person, he was among the very best.

Given that no one, except Jesus Christ, is perfect, then no one except Jesus Christ could provide the evidence that you are looking for.  Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again.  So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?  All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:48:46
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 15:44:14
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people dependent on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not?
Yes, having faith is dependent upon hearing the word about Christ; or in today's world at least having the Bible available to be read, studied and learned. That is what it says.  That is what it means.  You cannot believe in something that you have never heard of.  In this day and age, there are two ways, and only two, to hear the word about Christ; those are  someone preaching to you or you reading the Bible.

That's right, you cannot believe in something that you have never heard of. And that is the point. So, it seems you believe that salvation of people, from the first century until at least before scriptures was available to the people, depended on the works of the preacher, and not on God. And after that, it changed a bit, in that, it also now depended on the individual, if he reads or not, though it still remains, that it depended not on God.

Well, on my part, I believe that, salvation of people ever and always depends on God. Do you want me to explain that to you?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:59:04
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:00:44
His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect.
I must say, without an animosity toward you personally or to any who holds your view of election, that your view of election is a most abhorrent view of God's character and trait.  I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.

I suggested above in Reply #58 above that RB consider again my earlier post. I would ask that you also consider it.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:04:48
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?
It is in the sense that the true word of God and about God is only available from God Himself.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:06:41
Yes, thanks.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:13:39
Tex I am not promoting a formula or a 5 step plan just pointing out things not called works but draw the line at baptism. Yes being saved is not a formula it is belief and obedience to the best of your knowledge.  All the things I mentioned are in scripture.  The sinners prayer is not.

5 Step Plan is not mentioned in scripture either.  And in the more "hardline" CofC's that I dealt with, baptism was a work, everything was a work.  It was checklist Christianity and checklist worship.

And I don't agree with the Sinner's Prayer.  No it isn't biblical, and it isn't a replacement for baptism, which is a calling upon God in faith.

Attitude and the heart can tell you about much. 

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:30:17
TC, I know that your so called 5 step plan you have labeled on the SOF really irritates you but you have to admit it is a biblical flow.

I do not see it as steps as you like to label it but it is most defiantly a flow as found in the scriptures. It is not a check list as you say but it is order of events as recorded in the word.

We see the gospel preached and in so doing we see one is instructed to do each but it is not steps as you say just the flow set forth in the word. They are all commands that God had recorded if you wish to call it steps then so be but it does not change the biblical importance of the command.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:43:28
TC, I know that your so called 5 step plan you have labeled on the SOF really irritates you but you have to admit it is a biblical flow.

I do not see it as steps as you like to label it but it is most defiantly a flow as found in the scriptures. It is not a check list as you say but it is order of events as recorded in the word.

We see the gospel preached and in so doing we see one is instructed to do each but it is not steps as you say just the flow set forth in the word. They are all commands that God had recorded if you wish to call it steps then so be but it does not change the biblical importance of the command.

It isn't a biblical flow.  It is a man made checklist.  You want to point out error in other groups, but you don't realize you have it as well with "The Stairway To Heaven."
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:47:43
Okay then tell me which of the so called 5 steps is not biblical. Let us discuss this so I can see my error.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:14
Concerning yogi's statement about your views on election, you said:Perhaps before doing so you could review the topic The Elect started by yogi some time ago.  And I would ask particularly that you would review the following

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-elect-104809/msg1055149684/#msg1055149684[/url]


You know 4WD, there's NOTHING to read there, the only thing is what you posted from Jack Cottrell which he corrupted the scriptures to fit his own views. Now if you want me to prove it, then I see no problem in doing so~is this what you desire?

You know, I can post a post TAKING God's word almost word for word and there is NO REBUTTAL from either you or others who believe what you teach. I just made one above, and did you or yogi attempt to TAKE THE SAME SCRIPTURES and prove that I misused them? No, you did not even attempt to do so. But, I live by a different standard and will address any post or a post by others that you are trusting in and refute it with scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 08:00:44
I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.
I KNOW that you find election OF GRACE despicable and all that believe the same~ one can see it in your sarcasm. If Jesus Christ and Paul were here you would speak the same into their teeth.  How do I know this? Because all one has to do is QUOTE the scriptures word for word and you would immediately say that you do not believe in THAT TYPE OF GOD, OR, begin to find other versions that may water down what God has said, OR, you will labor to apply election to service and not salvation, etc. etc. . But enough of the battle of man's words and feelings~ I rather take scriptures and DEBATE THEM something that is hard to get you and yogi to do. For example:  my post above went totally unanswered by both of you BY USING the SAME scriptures and prove that I'm misusing them.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:27
Okay then tell me which of the so called 5 steps is not biblical. Let us discuss this so I can see my error.

You apparently didn't understand a word I was saying.  It is making it a checklist that is the problem.  A five finger exercise reduces scripture to a checklist.  And this checklist is preached as gospel.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:11:25
So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.
Michael, I have answered this you just don't hear. God does not do as you say that is only in your head the scriptures plainly teach that God wants all to be saved and has sent Christ to make it possible. All that believe the the Gospel call and respond are his elect. God has made a new covenant with us these days and a has laid out how we are to enter into that covenant.Only in your distorted thinking is anything said the way you are trying to say it. It is not scriptural the way you lay it out. To many scriptures say one has to believe or one has to repent ext ext so you need to rethink your line of reasoning.

The question is not whether you believe that God does that or not Mr. Yogi. If you were asked in a court, the judge would have told you the same. So, here's yet another opportunity for you to give your answer, and I ask one more time: So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous?

Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?

But let me then guess, since you evade the simple question, that by what you say instead, that God will not do such a thing, means that you do find Him unjust and unrighteous, if He did such a thing. And that leads me to another question. Why would He be unjust and unrighteous in your thinking and view?

Quote from: Michael
Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?

No Michael it is your lack of reasoning that you can not understand what I said. Salvation is not universal it is a covenant between man and God and means by which one enter in.

If you could just avoid the lack of reasoning excuse and remarks, that would be nice and kind of you to do. It does not help your argument in any way.

Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Quote from: Michael
This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.
Michael: "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not."

Yogi: Yes Christ did that very thing THe DB&R is the jest of the gospel call. It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.

Michael: 'Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Yogi: Michael I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like you are saying that God Gave Adam a choice and he chose rebellion. That because Adam sinned we all cannot help but do the same. if so you are partly right. WE all sin but not because Adam but because of our own weakness but we can chose to obey the gospel call and strive to live in the spirit. Yes salvation was always offered to all. Even Adam was reconciled.

So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?

Yogi, I am not saying anything about Adam.

Quote from: Michael
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

Yes Michael that is correct In Matthew 28:18-20 that is what Christ told he apostles to do and this day is our work to do also.
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV)
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I can not believe you had doubts about that it is plainly taught in the word.

Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:43:59
Quote
Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?


Michael that is your God you have made up My God the one of the bible is a just and righteous God yes and NO he is not like the God you have created in your mind  now I have answered this several times so move on if you don't like my answer I am sorry but I have answered.


Quote
Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Michael you see here is you default. Jesus nave his life for all but that did not automatically save all, all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation. Salvation is conditional one being one must have faith.


Quote
So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?


Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)
1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Quote
Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.
Not I but Jesus. Jesus is the one who sent us out into the world to preach the gospel of Christ. We are his workmen created in Christ to do this service for The Lord. His recorded word is what we are to spread. He gave us the gospel and sent us on our way. We are to speak the oracles of his word only not to add to or take from. His word as is recorded is all we have authority to teach.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:51:53
Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?
Only God knows what is actually in the heart of anyone.  You can look for clues, you can observe how he lives, how he acts, what he says.  But you can never actually determine whether he is saved or not. One of my most precious friends was one who more than most exhibited the evidence you look for as being saved.  It would not be until you asked him about it, could you really know.  He believed in God.  He did not believe God when God says that Jesus was His Son and was our Redeemer.  He was, according to the definition, a deist.  My point is, and it saddens me to this very day, that He did not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  He was a disbeliever.  But in terms of being a good person, he was among the very best.

If he does not believe in Jesus Christ, how could you say he believed in God? Or who is the God whom you say your friend believes? I know you know that no man know the Father, save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son will reveal the Father.

Going back to the topic, I'm glad we are in agreement that no one knows the heart of a person except God. So, we can only know as much who is truly saved or not, according to what the scriptures tells us concerning that.

Given that no one, except Jesus Christ, is perfect, then no one except Jesus Christ could provide the evidence that you are looking for.  Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again.  So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?  All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you.

I disagree that Jesus is the only one who could provide the evidence. The evidence we are talking about is "hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, obedience." The reason why I've chosen Paul and not Jesus is exactly because Jesus could not be the example of that. For first of all, Jesus need no salvation. Jesus is no sinner. He isn't spiritually dead. He need not any repentance.

4WD: Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again. 

I disagree. There is a perfection time for the elect 4WD. Perhaps not now, but definitely there will be that time. That is why I said in one of my posts, regeneration is a process, not a one time event.

4WD: So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved? All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you.

With absolute certainty, no man can tell. Only God can. But if I see any man who repents unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ, I would, as Paul did to those in his time who repented and believed in Jesus Christ, take him as a brethren in Christ ~ his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, obedience, I would take as evidence that he is an elect as I believe I am. If I believe that I am saved, being an elect of God, having heard and hearing, repented and repenting, believed and believing, confessed and confessing, obeyed and keep trying to obey, there is no reason for me to not do so, unless, in the course of time, he would had been shown to be otherwise.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:54:12
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?

What? Can you please explain and give clarification?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:59:55
I KNOW that you find election OF GRACE despicable and all that believe the same~ one can see it in your sarcasm.
NO, I do not find election OF GRACE despicable. I find it the one of the most remarkable features of God.  However, I do find your view of the election OF GRACE despicable.  Let's be clear here, it is not you personally or specifically, that I find despicable; it is your view of God's  election OF GRACE despicable. Paul said, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined  [elected]....(Rom 8:29)."  Now notice, please, Paul DID NOT say "For those whom he predestined [elected]....., he also foreknew".  That of course is what you and your fellow Reformed Theologians claim and that is wrong.

As I said earlier, I consider your view of election to be a statement of nothing other than spiritual abortion by God Himself.  It is a complete and total rejection of most of humanity by God even before those rejected beings are even born.  And that as you claim being only by the express will of God.  And nothing could be further from the truth.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 10:10:48
I just made one above, and did you or yogi attempt to TAKE THE SAME SCRIPTURES and prove that I misused them? No, you did not even attempt to do so.
If that is a reference to your Reply #55 above, please say so, and I will go through it to show you why you have it all wrong.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 10:20:35
His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect.
I must say, without an animosity toward you personally or to any who holds your view of election, that your view of election is a most abhorrent view of God's character and trait.  I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.

I suggested above in Reply #58 above that RB consider again my earlier post. I would ask that you also consider it.

You have every right to believe what you believe 4WD, as do every man. But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false. So, what you say there against my view does not at all make my view false and your view true. I could feel and say the same to you regarding your view. But I would not say that, for the reason I just gave. Useless. What we all should do is consider what each of us says, each of us who cares enough to seek and know the truth, and start acting as spiritual brethren in Christ, loving one another as Jesus had done and shown to His disciples. We can reason for or against, but must be with love, meekness, honesty and purity of heart.

I will go check your reply #58.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Johnb on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 11:04:45
Peter was given the keys to the kingdom Jesus said what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.  He opened the door to the kingdom of heaven in Act 2.  He preached the first gospel sermon.  Remembering tha what hound on earth would be bound in heaven what did he preach?  What did he tell folks to do when they cried out “what shall we do”?  That should be the end but folks refuse to accept what Jesus promised and what Peter preached.
PS Tex if you look at the first gospel sermon you will find all the elements of your so called check list.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 11:15:19
Peter was given the keys to the kingdom Jesus said what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.  He opened the door to the kingdom of heaven in Act 2.  He preached the first gospel sermon.  Remembering tha what hound on earth would be bound in heaven what did he preach?  What did he tell folks to do when they cried out “what shall we do”?  That should be the end but folks refuse to accept what Jesus promised and what Peter preached.
PS Tex if you look at the first gospel sermon you will find all the elements of your so called check list.

No I won't.  I am not dismissing baptism.  I am dismissing the denominational 5 steps of salvation as a checklist.

The people in Acts 2 were contrite.  The checklist is treated like a checklist, like the ten commandments.  Do you not see the difference between those in Acts 2 and hardliners in the CofC teaching the 5 steps aka The Stairway To Heaven?

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:30:39
But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false.
It is not what I believe about you or your beliefs.  It is about the logical implications of what you believe.  And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:34:16
You know 4WD, there's NOTHING to read there, the only thing is what you posted from Jack Cottrell which he corrupted the scriptures to fit his own views.
There are few theologians who corrupt the scriptures nearly so much as those of the Reformed Theology.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:42:48
Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?

Michael that is your God you have made up My God the one of the bible is a just and righteous God yes and NO he is not like the God you have created in your mind  now I have answered this several times so move on if you don't like my answer I am sorry but I have answered.

Yes, now you have given your answer, that is, you find the case of God's election of a few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people, as an unjust and unrighteous act. And that is why you don't believe it. That's clear. It's your judgment of what is just and what is righteous that actually is the basis for your belief against that.

Such a question was brought up by Paul regarding God's sovereignty and His election, whether there is unrighteousness in God when He elects people to harden and people to have mercy on, without regard to what they have done. And Paul's answer to that is plain and clear:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Some tried to explain this away by the "election to service" and not "election to salvation" argument. But that even does that take away the point of Paul's argument there concerning the acts of God in His sovereignty upon His creatures, even man.

If those scriptures will not shut the mouths of those who does not acknowledge this truth about God, I don't know what will.

Not only Paul testifies to that, but scriptures in general. Would you want me to show you scriptures where the sovereignty of God is shown as described and defined by Paul? Mr. Yogi, I did not create this God in my mind as you said in your excuse on your way out. It's what the scriptures says, the very scriptures you say you believe in. You have to read them Mr. Yogi. And in relation to what I am saying here about God's sovereign acts upon His creatures, especially man, you can consider reading what God had done as testified in Ezekiel 36. AFter reading, perhaps you can tell me what you have seen regarding this subject.

Quote from: Michael
Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Michael you see here is you default. Jesus nave his life for all but that did not automatically save all, all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation. Salvation is conditional one being one must have faith.

You said "Jesus gave his life for all but that did not automatically save all". Yes, it is you who said that, not scriptures. When Jesus died, He said "It is finished". What did He mean by that? One is that of His work of providing redemption completely, and that it presently stood finished. That regarding that, nothing more needed, or ever needs, to be done. The ransom is paid and so the redemption complete. And it redeemed only all those for whom He died for, and obviously not all of mankind. For if it was for all of mankind, then all would be saved as all have been then redeemed. 

And you said "all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation." I'd like to throw in a few questions that perhaps you or the readers could consider as a food for thought. Forfeit their salvation? Is that a new doctrine from you? Can you forfeit something you don't have? Reject grace? Can one reject grace when God gives it? If you say that Christ died for all mankind, which thereby having Christ to have given His life a ransom for all mankind, which further thereby redeeming all mankind, and for which He already had done and so stood effective, could one really change that and make that ineffective? Even superman can't do that, could he? Giving up His life as a ransom for all, would only make "all" to mean not all of mankind but all of those whom Christ redeemed with His blood. Your position and view have Jesus dying needlessly and senselessly for those whom He will not save, even knowing all along those whom He saves. I don't believe that Jesus would do such a waste nor would God allow such a waste, senseless, and meaningless act.

It seems to me that you see the death of Christ in a limited sense.   

Quote from: Michael
So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?
Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)
1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Well, that sure says a lot about the law, the animal sacrifices and that of Christ's, but it doesn't really address the point of my questions. It does not explain why it would be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? It does not explain why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time?

Now, if you say that is your explanation, so be it. For I know that, you nor anyone with your view, does not have an explanation for those.

Quote from: Michael
Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.
Not I but Jesus. Jesus is the one who sent us out into the world to preach the gospel of Christ. We are his workmen created in Christ to do this service for The Lord. His recorded word is what we are to spread. He gave us the gospel and sent us on our way. We are to speak the oracles of his word only not to add to or take from. His word as is recorded is all we have authority to teach.
Because you had not found the answer, I would guess that you did not care to read the book of ACTS.

Perhaps all Christian knows about what you say there. But we also know that not all have the same ministry and work for the Lord. There are preachers, teachers, etc. Scriptures says that as the body have many members, so is the church. All are not mouths you know.

Now the point of the questions is that, behind the instructions of Jesus to His disciples to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations, in your reading of the Acts, who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached ~ who do you say decides all those things? If you had read the book of Acts as I suggested, and even better the NT epistles, you will find out that the answer to the question is the Holy Spirit, not Paul, not Peter, not James, not John, not any man. 

The point being is that, it is on God, that salvation of people is dependent upon, not on man. While it is man who believes, man could only believe and have faith, when he is quickened by God and God brings the gospel to him for his hearing, in God's time and manner.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Johnb on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:44:20
Tex I am not calling it a check list either.  Just pointing out that even though it is treated as a check list or a formula to follow in being saved the elements are all there.  I agree it should not be treated as a check list but it also should not be relegated to work or earning ones salvation.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:59:48
Tex I am not calling it a check list either.  Just pointing out that even though it is treated as a check list or a formula to follow in being saved the elements are all there.  I agree it should not be treated as a check list but it also should not be relegated to work or earning ones salvation.

My point isn't that baptism is a work.  It should be a submission to Christ and a calling on Him.  Sometimes it gets treated as a work, not just by Baptist types, but in how it is presented within some CofC's as well.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 13:15:28
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:20:35
But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false.
It is not what I believe about you or your beliefs.  It is about the logical implications of what you believe.  And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

The intelligent and educated atheist unbelievers I talked with have the same reasoning as yours when I told them about the message of the cross. They don't find the logic of the cross. They find it foolishness. I was not all surprised you know. For Paul had already told be of this.

4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 14:23:35
NO, I do not find election OF GRACE despicable. I find it the one of the most remarkable features of God.  However, I do find your view of the election OF GRACE despicable.  Let's be clear here, it is not you personally or specifically, that I find despicable; it is your view of God's  election OF GRACE despicable. Paul said, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined  [elected]....(Rom 8:29)."  Now notice, please, Paul DID NOT say "For those whom he predestined [elected]....., he also foreknew".  That of course is what you and your fellow Reformed Theologians claim and that is wrong.
Okay, your one-sentence exposition of Romans 8:29 is so like those who have no truth to give from heaven. so when backed into a corner they are speechless.

Before I start, let me remind you for the umpteen time that I am not of the Reformed community of believers, who dislike me and my understanding as much as you do. But, I also will remind you that people should be very thankful for men like those of the Reformed community on many truths that they teach~for it was THEM for the most part that withstood Catholicism and exposed them for what they were worth, thieves and liars. Of course, those men are long gone and their children have gravitated back into the arms of the whore being seduced by her whoredoms and her many abominations. 

Quote from: Paul
Roamns 8:28~"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
If we love Him, as this text states (8:28), it is by God’s prior love for us (Ist John 4:19). The wicked never think of God, until God changes them (Psalms 10:4; John 6:44; Act 16:14). This will be quick and short.

There is no value in these words simply used as a mantra by those who do not love God. Those who love God are the righteous, and God blesses them (Psalm 34:12-22; 128:1-6). Loving God is not some mental assent about love, but a heart filled with love for Him. Those who love God with this promise are also identified as them who are the called of God. If any man loves God, it is because God has already called him to this love (I John 4:19). What does it mean to be called of God? It means God chose and appointed us His child! Our calling is our chosen or appointed role or vocation (Ist Corinthians 7:17-24; Ephesians 4:1; 5:1). God’s call can be appointment, or regeneration as a son, or the gospel call to act like one.

The call here is different and more than an invitation, offer, or request for us to choose. It is God’s charge, command, order, and ordination that result in us being sons of God and believing the gospel. ACTS 13:48

The Romans were called of God (Romans 1:6-7), or elect of God (Ist Corinthians 1:24-29; Ist Peter 1:2).

The gospel call to be sons is nothing compared to God’s authoritative call, appointment, ordination, and regeneration to be His sons (Matthew 22:14; Romans 9:11; Ephesians 1:3-12; Ist Peter 2:9).

The point here is that the declared facts of 8:28 are only for those called of God to be His. God’s purpose to work all things in their lives together for good is only true of His sons.

The calling or vocation we receive from God is according to his purpose, not at all our own. Salvation and calling are by God’s eternal purpose in Christ, not our works (2nd Timothy 1:9). If God has been merciful to us, it is according to His own good will (Matthew 11:25-26).
Quote from: Paul
Roamns 8:29~"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
The coordinating conjunction for shows this verse explains his purpose for the called (8:28). God’s purpose begins in foreknowledge, which is beyond omniscience; it is love beforehand! The Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew.

What God foreknew about us was sinful rebellion, without exception (Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3) He "KNEW" that if he did not elect some, then NONE would have been saved from sins on their own!

He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matthew 7:23; Psalms 5:5; 11:5). PLEASE CONSIDER THESE VERSES 4WD and yogi.

He loved His elect from everlasting, and always shall (Jeremaih 31:3; Epesiansh 1:4; 5:25; Revelation 13:8).

God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Ephesians 1:3-6).

Predestination, though hated and unpopular today, is a Bible doctrine we should and do love.

This Bible doctrine, which makes me a predestinarian, is here and in Ephesians 1:5,11.What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand. There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass?

Arminians have God predestinating men to hell just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election!

God’s purpose in creating the world and saving sinners is to build His family through Christ. God will do all that is necessary, which is considerable, to make sinners look like Jesus! Among the children of God, which He gave to Christ to save, Jesus will be preeminent! The drama of the whole universe is God’s display of saving grace in perfecting sinners! We shall be joint-heirs with Jesus as brothers, but He shall be the Firstborn (Colossians 1:15-18). We shall enjoy the fullest joy possible, as we will be glorified sons of God (I John 3:1-3). A day is coming, described here (8:17-25), when Jesus will own us as family (Hebrews 2:13).

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: lea on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 14:37:30
Please, keep those lies in own yard here: [url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/~you[/url] guys by the time you labor to interpret everything into 66-70 A.D (a time period that has NO biblical sufficient)  there is NO BIBLE left to believe that it was written to EVERY saint throughout the church history untot he end of this "present" world

So, PLEASE as we would tell folks walking their dog KEEP THE DUNG in your own yard, and we will promise you not to walk therein for all of the landmines of lies!

You folks penknife God's word to pieces that do not support your doctrine and, not one scripture DOES! 70 A.D. is much like the secret Rapture lie, IF we have never heard of it, then we would never believe it from the scriptures for the simple reason IT IS NOT THERE, it's a lie from the pits of darkness.


And keep your disrespectful attitude to yourself!

I'll repeat for you that Jesus was talking to Jews and Jews only when He claimed that "only few will find it."  That's right. He was talking about Israel and those who would become Christians fella! Only the faithful remnant of Israel was going to be saved - hence a few finding salvation through Christ, the Messiah.
If we, (gentiles if you will) were also the "few" that would find it, then you might as well throw out the entire New Testament because all we need is John 3:16 to be saved. Not a FEW!
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:03:53
4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.
If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?And that is my point.  God doesn't do that.  He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.  We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:10:31
BlessedCreator  said:
Hi there!  Did you know that Jesus was referring to his kinsmen Jews when He said "few will find it?"

The narrow path was for His brethren at the time.  2/3  of the Jews were cut off at the time of God's wrath on them in AD 66-70. Only a remnant was saved so that they became believers in Christ , not the Law, in the end times of the old covenant Judaism.

I have never ever heard this interpretation before.  If both John 3:16 and the admonition that the path to salvation is a narrow gate are both in the ministry of Jesus, it is a stretch to insert this into the AD70 belief.  The path continues to be narrow.  Very few will find it.  How many Christian adherents are there in  the world at this moment?  How many are devout out of that number?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:16:48
Before I start, let me remind you for the umpteen time that I am not of the Reformed community of believers, who dislike me and my understanding as much as you do.
First, RB, you know that I do not dislike you.  That is a cheap shot.  But second whether or not you are not of the Reformed community of believers all I can say is that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck......

That is like Michael declaring that he is not a Calvinist.  But in truth you, Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology.  That you all might deviate somewhat from each other from that onward is all rather beside the point.

I will come back to the rest of your post later  -- probably tomorrow.  I have a couple of Honey Dos lined up for me now.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:51:07
And keep your disrespectful attitude to yourself!

I'll repeat for you that Jesus was talking to Jews and Jews only when He claimed that "only few will find it."  That's right. He was talking about Israel and those who would become Christians fella! Only the faithful remnant of Israel was going to be saved - hence a few finding salvation through Christ, the Messiah.
If we, (gentiles if you will) were also the "few" that would find it, then you might as well throw out the entire New Testament because all we need is John 3:16 to be saved. Not a FEW!


Lea, take this to the Preterist forum and I'll come there and PROVE how you and others are children of Jehudi!
Quote
Jeremeiah 36:23~"And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth."
You are JUST AS GUILTY as Jehudi by taking God's word and laboring to put MOST of it back into 67-70 A.D. and saying it does NOT apply to Christians living post 70 A.D. You basically leave us WITHOUT a Bible to heed and follow FOR US.

If you believe that I have a  disrespectful attitude, then you continue as you are doing and see how Christ will treat you on that day, a day I'm not sure you even believe in! But, I'll leave that to God to judge for I'm ready to call fire down out of heaven on such people who show disrespect to God's precious word.
Quote
Jeremeiah 36:23~"And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth."
I assume you DO KNOW the rest of this story do you not?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 16:09:58
First, RB, you know that I do not dislike you.  That is a cheap shot.  But second whether or not you are not of the Reformed community of believers all I can say is that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck......

That is like Michael declaring that he is not a Calvinist.  But in truth you, Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology.  That you all might deviate somewhat from each other from that onward is all rather beside the point.

I will come back to the rest of your post later  -- probably tomorrow.  I have a couple of Honey Dos lined up for me now.

Well it seems to me that you will never believe our words. As to why, at least with regards me, I would not really know. But my guess is because, you had already judged me and clothed me as a Calvinist. So, no matter what, you just see me as you want to see me, a Calvinist, and treat me as a Calvinist, like in this post, saying "Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology." And if you had judged a Calvinist, as holding on to false doctrines, speaking of doctrines, are false teachers, or even devils, it only follows that you had judged me like so as well. And you think that such thing you do is good. And if you think it is good, perhaps you would even promote such actions and encourage others to do like you do. Would you? Or would you rather encourage others to not do as you do?

I could understand by what you have shown us over forums, your dislike and perhaps, hate against the Calvinist, or better yet, against the doctrines of Calvin. But, attacking Calvin, or the the person? For what? Attack the doctrine, not only by shouting out your opinion that they are false and demonic, for that does little good to none. Attack them by exposing their falsehood using the light of the truth in scriptures. Take note, using the light of the truth in scriptures, not in anywhere else. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 16:32:58
4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.
If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?And that is my point.  God doesn't do that.  He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.  We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.

If you'll notice, I completed the incomplete quote in your post in reply to my post reply#89, so I don't have to go back and see the context of what you had quoted in my post.

4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?

4WD: He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.

What did I say God does and for which you object to and say that God does not do such? Again, strawman or what? You are slowly moving away from what I've written and discussed in my post for which you are responding to in your post.

4WD: We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.

Do you now want for us to leave our subject discussion by bringing that up? Just say so. And if you do, you can start a new thread with that as the topic. And I'd be happy to deal with that issue.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:26:20
4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?
If you believe that man is a sinner when born and if you believe that God unconditionally elects only some to salvation then whether or not you have actually said those words, that is what you mean.  If God unconditionally elects only some to salvation, then by definition God unconditionally elects all the rest for condemnation  --  PERIOD.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:50:31
Michael, Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 09:11:21
4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?
If you believe that man is a sinner when born and if you believe that God unconditionally elects only some to salvation then whether or not you have actually said those words, that is what you mean.  If God unconditionally elects only some to salvation, then by definition God unconditionally elects all the rest for condemnation  --  PERIOD.

The following is where this was all coming from.

4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.

Obviously those scriptures did not shut you up.

And you had moved away from the subject discussion. If you want to start another subject discussion, please just say so.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 10:36:02
Michael, Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?


Before I answer that, let me ask you also a simple question. Are you ignoring my reply post in the following link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/requirements-of-salvation/msg1055162872/#msg1055162872




yogi:Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?

Salvation from sin and from the wage of sin, that is death, is not equal to entering into covenant with God. Let me clarify or qualify that.

I would assume you are not an Israelite, the descendants of Jacob. They were chosen first by God to be His people, a Holy nation, a kingdom of priests. In that sense, they were chosen for salvation and service. So, in that sense, salvation is not equal to entering into a covenant with God, but is by grace, by God's election of grace. Their being in covenant with God is only a by product of that.

The Old covenant was a covenant between God and the children of Israel. The non-Israelite had nothing to do with that, though those who become proselytes effectively put themselves in covenant with God in that sense. Whether they acknowledge that the Mosaic covenant had been done away with or not, that does not take away the fact that the Mosaic covenant had been replaced by a new covenant. However, their unbelief or disbelief in the gospel of Jesus Christ or their rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah, placed them out of covenant with God, that is, the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. They are now all living in blindness and deafness, hardened as to still not hear nor see that their covenant with God under the Mosaic covenant, is no more. This will be so for the Israelites in general, and for a time. For scriptures says concerning them, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".   

Salvation, both for those called the uncircumcision (non Israelites) and those called the circumcision (Israelites or Jews, including the proselytes), in scriptures, in the tone and language nearest to a covenant sense, is only expressed in this way:

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

In the tone and language of grace, scriptures expressed salvation in this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 10:53:41
The following is where this was all coming from.
No, this started, in part at least, with your Reply #2 where you screamed and hollered the following:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
  And that was in response to the OP by BlessedCreator as if that somehow was a refutation to everything BlessedCreator posted even though you didn't actually address a single thing posted in the OP.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 12:02:39
No, this started, in part at least, with your Reply #2 where you screamed and hollered the following:   And that was in response to the OP by BlessedCreator as if that somehow was a refutation to everything BlessedCreator posted even though you didn't actually address a single thing posted in the OP.

The subject is "requirements of salvation".

The two scriptural passages I quoted actually addresses the subject, and I quote again. Perhaps, you need to look at the scriptures closely this time and just maybe, you will see or not see the salvation of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's a lot to see here that the able eyes can see.

Do you see that the salvation of God is by grace?
Do you see that the salvation of God is through faith?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of yourself or of your doing?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of works?
Do you see that the saved are God's workmanship?
Do you see that the saved are a new creation in Christ, by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so that you agree with what BC said in the OP?



Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else, who justifies?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Jew?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Gentile?
Do you see that it is by faith that the Jew is justified by God?
Do you see that it is through faith that the Gentile is justified by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so, that you agree with what BC said in the OP? 




Do you want me to, in detail and point by point, refute the OP? BC don't even show up and care to reply. Would you be representing him and speak for him and respond to refutations of the OP? Just say so.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 12:44:35
The subject is "requirements of salvation".

The two scriptural passages I quoted actually addresses the subject, and I quote again. Perhaps, you need to look at the scriptures closely this time and just maybe, you will see or not see the salvation of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's a lot to see here that the able eyes can see.

Do you see that the salvation of God is by grace?
Do you see that the salvation of God is through faith?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of yourself or of your doing?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of works?
Do you see that the saved are God's workmanship?
Do you see that the saved are a new creation in Christ, by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so that you agree with what BC said in the OP?



Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else, who justifies?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Jew?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Gentile?
Do you see that it is by faith that the Jew is justified by God?
Do you see that it is through faith that the Gentile is justified by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so, that you agree with what BC said in the OP? 




Do you want me to, in detail and point by point, refute the OP? BC don't even show up and care to reply. Would you be representing him and speak for him and respond to refutations of the OP? Just say so.
Nothing in those verses refute the subject of the OP  --  Requirements of [for] Salvation.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 05:29:59
Nothing in those verses refute the subject of the OP  --  Requirements of [for] Salvation.
"If" understood in light of the gospel of Jesus Christ then it most certainly does! In a few words please consider:
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's a lot to see here that the able eyes can see.

Do you see that the salvation of God is by grace?
Yes, by UNCONDITIONAL grace, for grace and works are diametrically opposite per the man of God writing under the inspiration of Almighty God.
Quote from: The apostle Paul...hear ye him!
Romans 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Works can be defined as ANY work that man has an active part in, PERIOD! Just as we explained it above (Replies # 23, 55).
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Do you see that the salvation of God is through faith?
Yes, but NOT man's faith, by the faith of JESUS CHRIST, the ONLY sense that fits with Ephesians 2:5-9, and Galatians 2:16-5:4 where Paul explains the gospel of Jesus Christ and FREE justification through Christ's faith "alone"~for it is impossible for the natural man to have faith! Paul clearly said:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
The faith that saved God's children was NOT of themselves, it WAS the gift of God to them on the behalf of JESUS CHRIST, who was the ONLY man that ever lived that had PERFECT faith in God, which only the law of God could declare as  "NO condemnation" is found in that man that has such faith! We were chosen IN Christ from eternity past and placed IN Christ, where grace was freely given to us and when he was conceived in the womb of Mary, God viewed each elect IN HIM from conception to the death on the cross to where he NOW sits at God's right hand of power. It is all in the word of God, and can easily be proved! From the Psalms of David to right in these every scripture under consideration!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 2:4-10~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
These scriptures, when taken TOGETHER, should help anyone to understand exactly what Paul is teaching us! Salvation from start (in eternity past) to its consummation in the world to come, is totally 100% unconditional free grace without any works in consideration lest any man boast!
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of yourself or of your doing?
Absolutely!!  How can man met ANY CONDITIONS seeing that he is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but one that is at WAR with the very God that created him in so much as he hates the very thought of God and said in his heart..."Who is the LORD that I should obey him just as proud Pharoah said...remember?  I think he found out who the LORD GOD was did he not?
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of works?
In many different ways. Even now after I have been serving God for almost fifty years, I SEE in my flesh a war going on between the "two Adams" every day that I live in this world, it NEVER ceases to be, so that within itself shows me that if that is so, then I KNOW it would be IMPOSSIBLE for one to please God apart from the INDWELLING Spirit of God, IMPOSSIBLE if his flesh depended on it pleasing God without the Spirit of God being IN a person.
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Do you see that the saved are God's workmanship?
Yes indeed. The very desire to please God is a GIFT given and the power to do so is without question freely given~per such scriptures as John 1:12,13; etc.
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Do you see that the saved are a new creation in Christ, by God?
I do, and I'm eternally grateful!  I'm reminded of such scriptures as 1st Corinthians 1:17-31; etc.
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 12:02:39
Or do you not see all that, so much so that you agree with what BC said in the OP?
The gentleman was confused and deceived which I posted a post (Reply #11) proving it, and now waiting on him to answer it. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: BlessedCreator on Thu May 07, 2020 - 17:33:25
Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him.
Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.

We are told in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJB
"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

We see just from those 2 verses alone that there is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us if we are to be counted worthy.
That is what is being spoken of in James 2:26 where it says faith without works is dead.

The works are not any righteous or holy works of our own, but of God. The works are the will of God, told to us through the commandments and precepts taught in the Holy Bible.

Without obedience unto God's will, your faith is dead, you are not living a holy life, and you will not see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14 KJB
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: "
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Thu May 07, 2020 - 18:53:08
@BlessedCreator

BlessedCreator's signature
Quote
Major end time events are unfolding on the world stage. We are drawing close to the revealing of the antichrist (false messiah). If you'd like to check out my ministry work click into my profile for more details.

I did....." If you'd like to check out my ministry work click into my profile for more details."


First sentence in your first article told me I did not want to read more.

Yet I did.


Article 5, in entirety, Is silly at best.


Article 6, By personal example I can tell you why you are wrong on both accounts.


Article 7, is valid. And that is when "they" started to refer to the " old God"and say
the "new God" wants you happy.

All in all, I simply am at such opposite views on so much of your beliefs, especially your experience in the bathtub,  I shall let you be.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: lea on Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:01:33
Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him.
Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.

We are told in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJB
"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

We see just from those 2 verses alone that there is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us if we are to be counted worthy.
That is what is being spoken of in James 2:26 where it says faith without works is dead.

The works are not any righteous or holy works of our own, but of God. The works are the will of God, told to us through the commandments and precepts taught in the Holy Bible.

Without obedience unto God's will, your faith is dead, you are not living a holy life, and you will not see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14 KJB
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: "
2Tim.3:16Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; 17that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work.

The fruits of the Spirit I think, measures our holiness. Every good work should be done with love in mind.

Just me opining.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri May 08, 2020 - 03:11:27
Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him.
Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.

We are told in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJB
"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

We see just from those 2 verses alone that there is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us if we are to be counted worthy.
That is what is being spoken of in James 2:26 where it says faith without works is dead.

The works are not any righteous or holy works of our own, but of God. The works are the will of God, told to us through the commandments and precepts taught in the Holy Bible.

Without obedience unto God's will, your faith is dead, you are not living a holy life, and you will not see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14 KJB
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: "

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

That is the will of God for man in two commandments.

Is man, by and on his own, able to do that?
Will doing that save him?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Fri May 08, 2020 - 05:26:33
Faith means to have trust/confidence in God. You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God. You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him. Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey. There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.
I assumed that your post was to me, yet not totally sure. So I'll be short and let you tell us as to whom you were posting.
Quote from: BlessedCreator Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 17:33:25
Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
"Faith" is a large subject and truly would be needed to be broken down into several aspects before its true biblical meaning is understood correctly.

Faith in one biblical sense does mean to have confidence in God's testimony as it is revealed to us in the scriptures as the supreme and only source of doctrine in everything~used in this sense we as believers believe in "Sola Scriptura" sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

But to cut through all the theological debates and to keep this very short, the question that must be addressed is "WHOSE FAITH LEGALLY JUSTIFY US BEFORE GOD'S LAW?" Is it the faith of Jesus Christ, or man's? A man's answer to this question will reveal the gospel that he is trusting in to obtain eternal life in the world to come.

The gospel of Jesus Christ clearly reveals to us that the sinner is FREELY justified by the obedience, unrighteousness, and faith OF Jesus Christ, not by the works of man, which faith is man's greatest act that pleases God and opens up the door of heaven upon the man/woman that trust totally in God in every area of one's life. The true gospel reveals HOW man has faith............through being chosen IN Christ from before the foundation of the world and place in him as members of his chosen body. All that Christ did, it was as though THEY DID THE SAME, and truly by the doctrine of imputation THEY DID.

Another gospel  which truly is not another (for there is ONLY ONE true gospel) teaches that man must do this, that, etc., BEFORE he will ever truly be saved from his sins and God's condemnation of those sins.

Also, the scriptures teach us that the very faith that a child of God has, and lives by is FREELY given to us on the behalf of Jesus Christ, who ALONE had faith. The very life of faith that a child of God lives by was earned for us BY CHRIST.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:16-21~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
This is the true gospel IN A NUTSHELL, not John 3:16~these few scriptures are the most powerful scriptures in all of the word of God EXPLAINING how a sinner is freely justified~and the child of faith LOOKING TO CHRIST ALONE for his acceptance before God. Those who look to Christ alone basically declare that they are helpless sinners without any spiritual strength to save themselves and that ALL of their righteousness is as filthy rags and that Jesus Christ's righteousness is the atoning sacrifice offered to God for their sins and God ACCEPTED that perfect Lamb of God by raising him from the dead for death had NO CLAIMS upon that sinless sacrifice!
Quote from: BlessedCreator Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 17:33:25
You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
Very true~this good conscience was freely given at regeneration when the elect are born of the Spirit of God.
Quote from: BlessedCreator Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 17:33:25
You can't have a good conscience toward God without obeying Him.
Sir, you cannot have EITHER without FIRST being born of God~such gift are the results of the new birth, not the conditions thereof~OR ESLE, salvation from sin and condemnation is by the works of the law, flesh, etc. And that would make THAT GOSPEL another gospel that stands in opposition to Jesus Christ's gospel preached by the apostle Paul.
Quote from: Blessed=Creator Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 17:33:25
Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
AGREED! 1st John 3:21. Which PROVES that our faith is NOT the means of our salvation from the condemnation of God's law. Besides our faith is SO IMPERFECT and at times almost nonexistence! Sad, but true.
Quote from: BlessedCreator Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 17:33:25
There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved
Well, it is all according to in what SENSE are you using the word saved? Saved as from condemnation of the law of God? No, that would place a person's dependant on receiving eternal life in THEIR HANDS, thereby, BY THEIR WORKS and would make Christ's death be in vain and useless.

Saved in a practical sense from error, false doctrines, God's chastisements, loss of peace, joy, and happiness, God's best for us in this life, etc.?YES.


Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri May 08, 2020 - 06:42:36
But to cut through all the theological debates and to keep this very short, the question that must be addressed is "WHOSE FAITH LEGALLY JUSTIFY US BEFORE GOD'S LAW?" Is it the faith of Jesus Christ, or man's? A man's answer to this question will reveal the gospel that he is trusting in to obtain eternal life in the world to come.

As per my understanding of scriptures, it is God who justifieth us by His grace. And God did that through Christ Jesus. All that God did through Jesus Christ was for our justification, us whom God had chosen to be His people, whom He creates anew to be the new man, in Christ Jesus..   
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Fri May 08, 2020 - 16:05:35
As per my understanding of scriptures, it is God who justifieth us by His grace. And God did that through Christ Jesus. All that God did through Jesus Christ was for our justification, us whom God had chosen to be His people, whom He creates anew to be the new man, in Christ Jesus..

Amen my dear brother in Jesus Christ. RB
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: e.r.m. on Mon May 25, 2020 - 00:17:52
BlessedCreator,
I get the feeling that believing in Jesus back then meant far more than we give it credit for.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: e.r.m. on Mon May 25, 2020 - 18:50:54
Yogi bear,
Quote
Okay then tell me which of the so called 5 steps is not biblical. Let us discuss this so I can see my error.
Calling it steps makes it sound mechanical. I don't believe in packaging things.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: BlessedCreator on Sat May 30, 2020 - 22:30:14
I updated the original post and removed the part about baptism and having a good conscience toward God. My interpretation of that verse was off therefore I removed it. But we do still need to continue in obedience to God and His will to have a good conscience toward Him. Also I added a link at the bottom of the original post which will take you to a PDF of the complete KJB.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun May 31, 2020 - 06:54:11
Please refresh my memory, which verse on baptism did you remove? Can you please explain why you were off on the verse? What was your first thought and why did you change your view?
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun May 31, 2020 - 07:00:29
Yogi bear,Calling it steps makes it sound mechanical. I don't believe in packaging things.
I agree and do not call it steps but a biblical flow.

Think about this even the faith only tribe do the same but do not call it steps. They too first hear the gospel then they believe the gospel then they confess Jesus and repent then pray this prayer. They then are baptized. The main difference in them and us is the definition of what baptism is.

That is why we have so many heated discussions on what the true biblical meaning of baptism is all the rest we agree whole hardheartedly on.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: RB on Sun May 31, 2020 - 08:30:20
That is why we have so many heated discussions on what the true biblical meaning of baptism is all the rest we agree whole hardheartedly on.
Greetings Yogi, please do not put me into the group with the others who do indeed believe wholeheartedly with you, and truly the bottom line are with you, just they do admit that they too are being active in working in their salvation from sin and condemnation, but their doctrine said otherwise when compared to what Paul called the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: yogi bear on: Today at 07:00:29
Think about this even the faith only tribe
I'm in the faith only tribe, but it is JESUS CHRIST'S faith that is the ONLY ground of our legal justification before God. Our faith in Jesus Christ is the evidence that we were justified at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The whole gospel of John and his 1st epistle were written to teach this very truth, especially so his gospel.
Quote from: John
John 20:31~But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The true biblical sense to " that believing ye might have life through his name" through believing God's elect might have the KNOWLEDGE of their free gift of justification unto eternal life secured for us THROUGH Jesus Christ. " Of course, I have combined many other scriptures into giving this sense to John's words, which is how we come to understand the scriptures, by here a little and there a little using all of them together.

Must run to meeting...later RB
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun May 31, 2020 - 09:21:34
The true biblical sense to " that believing ye might have life through his name" through believing God's elect might have the KNOWLEDGE of their free gift of justification unto eternal life secured for us THROUGH Jesus Christ. " Of course, I have combined many other scriptures into giving this sense to John's words, which is how we come to understand the scriptures, by here a little and there a little using all of them together.
There are indeed some passages for which I would concede that a different interpretation could be proposed than the one I would give.  John 20:31 is not one of them.  Once again your adherence to the KJV and a complete avoidance of any other translation has gotten you to a false interpretation.

(ESV)  but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(NIV)  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


These make the point clearly that it is by or through believing that we can have life in his name.  Our believing, i.e., our faith, is what provides access to life in Christ Jesus.  That is actually what the KJV says as well, but so much differently that you have interpreted it wrongly.  It is not other Scriptures that have led you to your "sense" of what John meant, but rather your own preconceived, and incorrect, soteriology that forces that "sense" into John's words.  It is not just KNOWLEDGE about God's justification; rather it is God's JUSTIFICATION itself that comes by or through believing.  That is what John said, that is what God intended him to say.  And that is a reiteration of so much of John's gospel: John 3:15  so that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sun May 31, 2020 - 10:25:34
I agree and do not call it steps but a biblical flow.

Think about this even the faith only tribe do the same but do not call it steps. They too first hear the gospel then they believe the gospel then they confess Jesus and repent then pray this prayer. They then are baptized. The main difference in them and us is the definition of what baptism is.

That is why we have so many heated discussions on what the true biblical meaning of baptism is all the rest we agree whole hardheartedly on.

Some in your group parse baptism from faith.  Maybe not all, but I have heard it first hand.  The "faith only" group don't all say a prayer. 
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jun 05, 2020 - 05:34:18
If anyone claims baptism is ANYTHING without accompanying faith have no understanding of Biblical truth, and ESPECIALLY don’t even understand their own touted 5 steps “five steps”. I don’t know how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that it is really only one step, baptism. These people are vestiges of the old conservative cofc. Not that prevalent anymore, but I’m sure they exist.

These people parse baptism away from faith. The faith-only bunch parse faith away from baptism. Basically the same eggregious mistake.



Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Rella on Fri Jun 05, 2020 - 06:45:48
If anyone claims baptism is ANYTHING without accompanying faith have no understanding of Biblical truth, and ESPECIALLY don’t even understand their own touted 5 steps “five steps”. I don’t know how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that it is really only one step, baptism. These people are vestiges of the old conservative cofc. Not that prevalent anymore, but I’m sure they exist.

These people parse baptism away from faith. The faith-only bunch parse faith away from baptism. Basically the same eggregious mistake.

Faith alone is simply a wasted energy evidently. Useless without that immersion either for the folks who contend in the need for salvation, or those who contend it is affirming our understanding that it is expected. Erog... without it we really are not saved, properly.

So why not just come out and say it is a two step process, and unless you undergo this.... beware because His wrath will catch up to you one way or the other  ::tippinghat::

Time to stop pussy footing around and get back to that good old Hell Fire and Damnation preaching and Teaching.

I find it abhorrent that on a Saturday a minister could marry  Joan and Linda, or Adam and  a Steve, then on Sunday
immerse a person who has just found his way to faith and belief.

But that is just me .

Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Jun 07, 2020 - 07:49:40
Here is my thought on the matter.

It is clear we all agree one must have faith and agree on what that means, will except for a few that thinks it is given us not that we come to believe.

It is clear we all know that we are required to be baptized in the name of Christ. It is the reason behind the baptism that we can not agree upon. Therefore the way I see it we need to study just what baptism is and why and what it accomplishes and fully understand what the bible says about baptism.

That is why we study the topic of baptism more than faith, confession,and repentance. We all agree on the other but can not come together on baptism. Just like the others the bible is clear on the teaching of baptism therefore we must look closely at our view to make sure it is in alignment with what the bible truly teaches on the subject.

It is not that we parse baptism from faith because we clearly teach that faith must come first but we strongly try to teach what the bible clearly says on the subject. It to me is hard to see how so many can not grasp what the bible says in written form  as to what baptism is for and does for one.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: 4WD on Sun Jun 07, 2020 - 08:59:51
It is not that we parse baptism from faith because we clearly teach that faith must come first but we strongly try to teach what the bible clearly says on the subject. It to me is hard to see how so many can not grasp what the bible says in written form  as to what baptism is for and does for one.
It is mostly, I believe, because so many erroneously declare baptism to be a work and therefore must be rejected as being involved with obtaining salvation.  And all of that because they simply do not understand Paul's meaning of "work" when he states that justification is by faith not by works.
Title: Re: Requirements of Salvation
Post by: Jaime on Sun Jun 07, 2020 - 09:17:15
I agree 4WD. Baptism is no more a work that earns salvation than confessing with our tongues that Christ is Lord. It just MUST be to those that DO want to parse baptism from salvation. It certainly wasn’t to the first century folks, who were closer to the events and texts that we point to.