Author Topic: Requirements of Salvation  (Read 2113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #35 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 09:48:01 »
Okay Michael lets try this again. What is the grace of God? Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Can you answer that plain and simple just what does the grace of God mean?

It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #35 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 09:48:01 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #36 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:07:24 »
There is not a single person in all of history that you can point to where those things establish that God's grace has been given.

The elect Christian. The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.

You cannot even point to those things as assurance that God's grace has been given you, let alone anyone else.

And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?

That is because, the first question that must be asked is, "How much hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, etc. does it take to provide the evidence that God's grace has been freely given?"  And you have no answer because there is no answer.

How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
 
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:29:29 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #37 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:27:22 »
Okay Michael lets try this again. What is the grace of God? Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Can you answer that plain and simple just what does the grace of God mean?

It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Well, perhaps my answer does not get across to you because you have a different answer which you expect would be my answer.

yogi: Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Answer: No. What grace that we are talking about is not a plan really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam.

yogi: It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Answer: No. The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.   
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:56:46 by Michael2012 »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #37 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 10:27:22 »

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:11:24 »
Well, perhaps my answer does not get across to you because you have a different answer which you expect would be my answer.

yogi: Is it not the plan to save mankind that He determined before the beginning of mankind?

Answer: No. What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam.

yogi: It seams the biblical answer is God wants all to be saved and He provided the way fee to all that will accept is that correct?

Answer: No. The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.   
So with this "What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam." you are wanting me to believe that the grace of God is not salvation and is not for all but only for a select few but to them it is salvation that God unconditionally gives them while rejecting all the rest of mankind?

Does that not contradict the following scripture?
 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does all men mean if as you say only a select few?

Then you go on to say "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.  "

Grace is Gods Plan to save and which does has conditions as seen in the very verse you started this debate with.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace (Gods plan to save you) ye are saved through faith How through faith (believing);and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( not because of you but because God made the way)

And again
 John 3:16 (KJV)
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One has to have faith it is a condition set before the world began that one has to believe in Christ to be save God gives you that choice and does not make it for you. If God made it for you then all scripture commanding belief would be unnecessary and confusing to mankind.

Gods grace is his plan to redeem mankind plan ans simple.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:11:24 »

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:16:15 »
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 Michael, Here faith is being used to refer to the Gospel message as in Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:16:15 »



Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #40 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:18:09 »
The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.
That is not evidence.  I defy to identity a single Christian anywhere based upon those criteria.
Quote
And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?
Again, that is not evidence based up the criteria presented; rather the evidence is simply the statement by Scripture.
Quote
How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
And just how do you know when someone has heard the words of God? Let me guess, you know they hear the words of God when they agree what you.

I cannot believe that you even posted any of that.  Once again, Michael, you demonstrate a complete lack of rational thinking.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #40 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 11:18:09 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #41 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 13:17:19 »
So with this "What grace that we are talking about is not a plan of salvation really. What grace that we are talking about is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam." you are wanting me to believe that the grace of God is not salvation and is not for all but only for a select few but to them it is salvation that God unconditionally gives them while rejecting all the rest of mankind?

If there is anything that I wanted for you to believe is not my words nor anybody's words, but God's words, like in the following:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:(KJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,(ESV)


AND

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.(KJV)

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.(ESV)

It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.

Does that not contradict the following scripture?
 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does all men mean if as you say only a select few?

That question and argument had been given almost every time this subject comes up. And I had addressed and rebutted that each and every time as well. Instead of doing that again here, let me throw in a question in like manner.

Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?

Then you go on to say "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that.  "

Grace is Gods Plan to save and which does has conditions as seen in the very verse you started this debate with.

So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace (Gods plan to save you) ye are saved through faith How through faith (believing);and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( not because of you but because God made the way)

You actually expose your error, addition or modification of what the verses says, in the parenthesis.

And again
 John 3:16 (KJV)
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One has to have faith it is a condition set before the world began that one has to believe in Christ to be save God gives you that choice and does not make it for you. If God made it for you then all scripture commanding belief would be unnecessary and confusing to mankind.

Gods grace is his plan to redeem mankind plan ans simple.

Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #42 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 13:20:31 »
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 Michael, Here faith is being used to refer to the Gospel message as in Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

I disagree. But that is for another topic.

My point in citing Romans 3:30 is to show that it is God who justifies and not man. So it is, God's work, not man's. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #43 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:06:22 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:07:24
The elect Christian heard the gospel of Christ, repented unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ, confessed and confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, have himself baptized, and obey the laws written in his mind and heart, and walk according to and in the Spirit.
That is not evidence.  I defy to identity a single Christian anywhere based upon those criteria.

Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied? If you need two or five or ten, just say. But I am afraid you might not know the names and you'll just end up complaining and rejecting.

Quote from: Michael
And why not, when it is Scriptures that testifies of them to whom grace had been given?
Again, that is not evidence based up the criteria presented; rather the evidence is simply the statement by Scripture.

It's evidence 4WD. You just don't want to accept them as evidence. If there is any evidence that I can point to that speaks the truth is scriptures. But if you don't accept that, there's nothing I can present you that you would accept.

Quote from: Michael
How much? Wrong question really to ask. "how much" even is immaterial, for the truth is that hearing the words (voice) of God, that is in the spiritual sense, is an ability that the spiritually dead person does not have, unless he is quickened by God.
And just how do you know when someone has heard the words of God? Let me guess, you know they hear the words of God when they agree what you.

I cannot believe that you even posted any of that.  Once again, Michael, you demonstrate a complete lack of rational thinking.

When he or she believes the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And of course, expectedly, your signature lack of rational thinking excuse. You don't even realize what that makes of you whenever you do and say that.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:10:23 by Michael2012 »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #43 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:06:22 »

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #44 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:33:45 »
Quote
It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.

What I am suggesting there is that you are totally confused what the grace of God is.  God wants all men to come to the faith. God gives man the means to do so. God does not force the hand of any man it is there choice to make. God sent Christ to be the way that is the grace.

Quote
Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?

Easy all means all all of mankind God wants All to come to repentance

Quote
So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Yes I do see a lot of contradiction to what scripture says and what you are saying and I have pointed it out clearly just you cant understand because of your preconceived ideals on the matter.

Quote
Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is believe the word of God The gospel call.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:38:35 by yogi bear »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7712
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #45 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 14:56:17 »
To my dear brother RB, ...................

Either you believe in practicing mercy to those who differ from you in your understanding of scripture, or you don’t.

Simply because lea and I hold to Preterist doctrines (of varying kinds) does not require that we post ONLY in the Preterist forum.  Many NON-Preterists post frequently and regularly in that forum, so the same liberty applies to Preterists posting in other forums as well.

You are right and I'm wrong please accept my apology. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #46 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 15:44:14 »
Quote from: Michael
It is not God who rejected man, but man rejected God. That is in a sense what sin is. So, starting off, as though every man have the right to be saved for whatever reason, or that as though God is indebted to save all man, or that as though God is unjust by His election of grace, is the error and the problem.

Are you suggesting by your last statement there, that if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, that God is unjust and unrighteous? Please give me your honest answer to my question.
What I am suggesting there is that you are totally confused what the grace of God is.  God wants all men to come to the faith. God gives man the means to do so. God does not force the hand of any man it is there choice to make. God sent Christ to be the way that is the grace.

So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.

Quote from: Michael
Now, let me go a few more verses that follows the scriptures you cited:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I ask the question to you, what does "all" mean?
Easy all means all all of mankind God wants All to come to repentance

Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?

Quote from: Michael
So, I could see that you haven't thought about what I asked of you to think about. And no comment whatsoever. Not a single word to refute my argument there.

As I said, grace is not a plan, but is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God to those whom He had chosen to be His people, those whom He creates anew in the last Adam (Jesus Christ) from out of those of the kind of Adam, the first Adam. Do you see any conditions in there?

Yes I do see a lot of contradiction to what scripture says and what you are saying and I have pointed it out clearly just you cant understand because of your preconceived ideals on the matter.

This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.

Quote from: Michael
Yes one has to have faith. That only means that man have no faith to begin with. Now, where does faith come from? How does man have faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is believe the word of God The gospel call.

That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #47 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:11:58 »
Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied?
So how do you know Paul was saved?


Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #48 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:20:51 »
It's evidence 4WD. You just don't want to accept them as evidence. If there is any evidence that I can point to that speaks the truth is scriptures. But if you don't accept that, there's nothing I can present you that you would accept.
Of course the scriptures are the evidence of anyone stated to have been saved was saved.  But that is not what either you or RB said. That is not what is being discussed as evidence.  Dare I say that it is your irrational thinking that doesn't even understand that?






« Last Edit: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:31:53 by 4WD »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #49 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 17:05:20 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 14:06:22
Of course that is evidence, only not accepted by you. You contend that there is not a single person and there I gave you even more than that and you reject it? Okay, in scriptures, and so without question, I name the Christian convert Saul (Paul). You asked for one. There I gave you one. Satisfied?
So how do you know Paul was saved?
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #50 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 17:21:44 »
Of course the scriptures are the evidence of anyone stated to have been saved was saved.  But that is not what either you or RB said. That is not what is being discussed as evidence.  Dare I say that it is your irrational thinking that doesn't even understand that?

4WD, these are such as what RB said to be the EVIDENCE that God's grace has been freely given to a person (of course the elect):  Hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience ~ coming from reply #28.

Now you said "There is not a single person in all of history that you can point to where those things establish that God's grace has been given.  You cannot even point to those things as assurance that God's grace has been given you, let alone anyone else."

I gave you Paul. Do you not believe that God's election of grace was given to Saul? Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?



Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #51 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:01:13 »
Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?
Michael, what you have is the scriptural evidence of the Paul's hearing, repenting, etc.  There is nothing in the Bible that identifies Paul's hearing, repenting, etc, as evidence of his being saved.  In fact, just the opposite. It identifies Paul's, and others similarlly, hearing repenting, confessing, baptism etc. as the occasion for his being saved.  And there is not a single word about Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. being evidence of his "election".






Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #52 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:06:45 »
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?
If by the Holy Spirit telling you so, you mean the scriptures, then yes.  But the evidence is the scriptures telling you that.  In fact it was in his hearing, even seeing, believing, repenting and being baptized that he was saved, i.e., he was quickened, i.e, made alive spiritually.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #53 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 20:16:30 »
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? 
Yes, having faith is dependent upon hearing the word about Christ; or in today's world at least having the Bible available to be read, studied and learned. That is what it says.  That is what it means.  You cannot believe in something that you have never heard of.  In this day and age, there are two ways, and only two, to hear the word about Christ; those are  someone preaching to you or you reading the Bible.

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #54 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 03:12:33 »
Quote
So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.
Michael, I have answered this you just don't hear. God does not do as you say that is only in your head the scriptures plainly teach that God wants all to be saved and has sent Christ to make it possible. All that believe the the Gospel call and respond are his elect. God has made a new covenant with us these days and a has laid out how we are to enter into that covenant.Only in your distorted thinking is anything said the way you are trying to say it. It is not scriptural the way you lay it out. To many scriptures say one has to believe or one has to repent ext ext so you need to rethink your line of reasoning.







Quote
Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?
No Michael it is your lack of reasoning that you can not understand what I said. Salvation is not universal it is a covenant between man and God and means by which one enter in.



Quote
This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.
""The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not." Yes Christ did that very thing THe DB&R is the jest of the gospel call. It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.

'Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Michael I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like you are saying that God Gave Adam a choice and he chose rebellion. That because Adam sinned we all cannot help but do the same. if so you are partly right. WE all sin but not because Adam but because of our own weakness but we can chose to obey the gospel call and strive to live in the spirit. Yes salvation was always offered to all. Even Adam was reconciled.









Quote
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?
Yes Michael that is correct In Matthew 28:18-20 that is what Christ told he apostles to do and this day is our work to do also.
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV)
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I can not believe you had doubts about that it is plainly taught in the word.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7712
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #55 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:34:44 »
Red with all due respect I have to say it appears you do not understand the biblical meaning of " Election" as well as how one is elected.
I'll spend a little time today answering the post to me as time permits, do have a couple of meetings but overall should be free. Sorry, I have not been that active, I'm certainly not avoiding anyone.
Quote
Red with all due respect I have to say it appears you do not understand the biblical meaning of " Election" as well as how one is elected.
Thank you for the respect, the same back to you, and to all others that post in sincerity and a love for the truth. God knows who you are even though we do not at times and truly that is not our job to judge even though at times we are strongly tempted to do so.

Yogi, that's a bold statement by you, which I will not allow it to pass without pushing you to prove your statement. Yogi, my friend, I'm pretty convinced that I do, maybe more so than Mr. Yogi does in believing that I do not understand the meaning of election of GRACE, as well as how that election is defined by God Himself. My (and anyone else) understanding MUST be according to how God defines election of grace, and not of WORKS~which is done by Paul for us~let us consider this. 
Quote from: Paul defining the doctrine of God's UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION OF GRACE APART FROM ALL WORKS IN CONSIDERATION THEREOF
Romans 11:4~"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
But what saith the answer of God unto him."
Just when the prophet thought that he was the only one left serving God~God answered Elijah in Ist Kings 19:18, when He revealed to the despaired prophet that he had an elect remnant of faithful men. After telling Elijah how he would participate purging the land, God will described to him the remnant and just how that came about! Consider carefully this is part of the conversation God had with Elijah with the still small voice (Ist Kings 19:12-13).

"I have reserved to myself"~Election is God’s reservation of men to Himself, not at all their placing of reservations with Him..... BIG difference Yogi, and please take note and refute IF you think you can which beware it is GOd's word that you are disputing NOT MINE, I'm just repeating what is written.

Yogi, by nature we would all rush with unmitigated zeal after sin, wickedness, and death without grace PROVEN by these words before us. Israel had shown its true character of wickedness many times; only God could save any of them. God had elected a remnant of Israelites in other generations (9:25-29).
God makes the election or reservation of some for Himself, not for them, their need, or request.

"Seven thousand men"~.No women or children are mentioned, though they were likely included in this many families. "SEVEN"~A round number of Biblical significance of a small remnant in a nation of maybe a million or more known ONLY by God.

"Who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal"~Though the national religion and there would have been great pressure and persecution to do so. God’s words to Elijah included, “And every mouth which hath not kissed him” (Ist Kings 19:18).
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Roamns 11:5~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

"Even so then at this present time also"~Just as God had reserved a group of Israelites in Elijah’s day, He had done the same in Paul’s day. The combination of “even so” and “also” indicates that God had done what He had done earlier. Which is a GIVEN, because UNLESS God elected some, then NONE would have ever come on their own!

A remnant is a small leftover portion of a larger whole e.g. curtain or carpet remnants (Exodus 26:12). Paul had appealed to the scriptures earlier for examples of remnant election in Israel as we noted above. (9:25-29). God’s answer to Sennacherib and Assyria involved His blessing of a remnant (2nd Kings 19:30-31). We SHOULD grasp the incredible blessing to be chosen and loved by God as a remnant (2nd Thessalonians 2:13)!

"According to the election of grace"~God reserving men to Himself can only be by grace, for the choice is His without any human merit. Yogi, IF you believe otherwise, then prove your position, which I KNOW taht you cannot, and most likely will not. But, we shall see and I trust you truly will attempt to do so.

God’s election of men to salvation in Christ is for the praise of the glory of His grace per Paul~(Ephesians 1:3-6). Whether one or many, as with Noah (Genesis 6:7), God’s choice to show mercy is all of grace (9:15).
Quote from: Paul
Romans 11:6~"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. And if by grace.
It is by grace, demerited favor, but the apostle wisely chose to proceed in a definitional argument. Their salvation, and our salvation, is by grace, but it is helpful to define and analyze grace in detail.

"Then is it no more of works"~.If it is by grace, then works cannot at all be involved, for the definition of grace is unmerited favor. Paul had taught earlier in this section about Israel that God’s mercy was by His will only (9:15-16).

"Otherwise grace is no more grace"~If works were involved, then it could not be by grace, for the definition of grace excludes works. Yogi if you think the language here to be a tautology or trite, you do not appreciate grace against works.

"But if it be of works"~.SALVATION from sin and condemnation is not by works, earned wages, but Paul simply chose to proceed in his definitional argument. Their salvation, and our salvation, is not by works, but it is helpful to define and reject works. If you have a definition better then give it, or prove that our defintion is wrong.

"Then is it no more grace"~ If salvation form sin and condemnation is by works, then grace cannot be involved, for the definition of work is to earn by debt. Yogi and all others~Works and grace are completely and entirely antithetical, as Paul had earlier taught (4:4). This is not taht hard to grasp and follow UNLESS a person has a bais to protect and serve.

"Otherwise work is no more work"~If grace were involved, then it could not be by works, for the definition of works excludes grace.

Thus the apostle gives us one of the clearest examples of grace and works to found anywhere.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7712
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #56 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:45:22 »
It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.
So wrong~the gospel of Jesus Christ is offered to NO ONE~the gospel is a good news of a DECLARATION of a FINISHED SALVATION SECURED for God's elect by his ONLY begotten Son, JESUS CHRIST proclaimed among ALL NATIONS, kindred, tongues and people. Those who are called of God believe this wonderful, glorious, message of FREE GRACE. If just offered then NONE would ever come, not a single one. How in the world can one just OFFERED deliverance to a person IN BONDAGE to sin and the devil? A person GREATER than the one holding a person in bondage must OPEN the prison doors to those bound, and set them FREE.....or else, they shall stay in bondage. Luke 4:18!
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:52:00 by RB »

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #57 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 05:56:38 »
Red just what is that grace???
Is it not the DB&R?? Is that not the heart of the gospel??

God did that all on his own yes no man merited anything in the giving of Christ as our savior that was solely the work of God.

That does not negate the fact that he ask of us to respond to the grace he offered.

To many scriptures tell us that we must have faith we must believe in the grace offered us that is a condition that is set for us to chose.

To many scriptures say we must repent without repentance we have no way to receive the grace ghat is offered. 

Just because we are asked to respond to the gospel call in no way makes it work for salvation but merely submission to our Lord and savior.

Grace is Gods redemption work on mankind. It is the gospel call to all men to come to faith. It has conditions for it is not universal.

If it was not conditional there would be no need of scriptures asking for belief and repentance and such but yet there are many so no God does not just select a few but the offer is to all  Acts 2:39-40 (KJV)
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #58 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:14:52 »
Concerning yogi's statement about your views on election, you said:
I'll spend a little time today answering the post to me as time permits,
Perhaps before doing so you could review the topic The Elect started by yogi some time ago.  And I would ask particularly that you would review the following

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-elect-104809/msg1055149684/#msg1055149684

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #59 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:16:30 »
Red Let me ask this but first a little background.

We all know that Peter (by the power of the spirit) preached the completed gospel of Christ for the first to the public in Acts 2.

His sermon was more or less The DB&R what Christ came to do and how he was received by them.

When they realized that Christ was the messiah and what they had done and ask what shall we do how would you answer that??

If you can answer this scriptural and honestly we may break some ground otherwise we are going no where.

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #60 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 06:21:27 »
Quote
So wrong~the gospel of Jesus Christ is offered to NO ONE~

Acts 2:39-40 (KJV)
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #61 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:18:00 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 17:21:44
Does not his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, baptism, obedience, gives evidence to that truth?

What evidence is it that you are asking, if that is not acceptable to you?
Michael, what you have is the scriptural evidence of the Paul's hearing, repenting, etc.  There is nothing in the Bible that identifies Paul's hearing, repenting, etc, as evidence of his being saved.  In fact, just the opposite. It identifies Paul's, and others similarlly, hearing repenting, confessing, baptism etc. as the occasion for his being saved.  And there is not a single word about Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. being evidence of his "election".

Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?

Your position and belief is that the hearing, repenting, etc. are the occasions for Paul's being saved. My position on the other hand is that, the occasion for his being saved is him having been chosen by God. For if God had not chosen him, he would had been left doing about what he was doing, that is, persecuting the church, and he would not had been saved.

His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect. One's election unfolds, such as that of Saul's, and comes about in God's own time and manner. And when it comes, one will find himself, as Saul had, fully convicted and convinced in his/her heart by God of the truth, that he finds himself even with the strength and ability to repent from his wicked way of life, from his life-long religion, thoughtless and careless of what his loved ones (his parents perhaps, sisters, brothers, relatives, and friends) would tell him or even if he will be rejected by them, that he voluntarily turns to God and believe in Jesus Christ, without any bit of hesitation nor resistance. That happened to Paul. I believe, as I said, one's election unfolds, such as that of Saul's, and comes about in God's own time and manner. Every elect had a story to tell to the glory of God.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #62 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:31:16 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 17:05:20
How do I know? The Holy Spirit told me so. He was quickened. He heard and even saw the Lord. He repented and believed in Jesus Christ. He have himself baptized. He confessed the Lord Jesus. He obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ.

How about you, how do you know Paul was saved?
If by the Holy Spirit telling you so, you mean the scriptures, then yes.  But the evidence is the scriptures telling you that.  In fact it was in his hearing, even seeing, believing, repenting and being baptized that he was saved, i.e., he was quickened, i.e, made alive spiritually.

I had addressed your contention there in my reply #61.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #63 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:47:00 »
Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?
Only God knows what is actually in the heart of anyone.  You can look for clues, you can observe how he lives, how he acts, what he says.  But you can never actually determine whether he is saved or not. One of my most precious friends was one who more than most exhibited the evidence you look for as being saved.  It would not be until you asked him about it, could you really know.  He believed in God.  He did not believe God when God says that Jesus was His Son and was our Redeemer.  He was, according to the definition, a deist.  My point is, and it saddens me to this very day, that He did not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  He was a disbeliever.  But in terms of being a good person, he was among the very best.

Given that no one, except Jesus Christ, is perfect, then no one except Jesus Christ could provide the evidence that you are looking for.  Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again.  So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?  All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #64 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:48:46 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 15:44:14
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people dependent on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not?
Yes, having faith is dependent upon hearing the word about Christ; or in today's world at least having the Bible available to be read, studied and learned. That is what it says.  That is what it means.  You cannot believe in something that you have never heard of.  In this day and age, there are two ways, and only two, to hear the word about Christ; those are  someone preaching to you or you reading the Bible.

That's right, you cannot believe in something that you have never heard of. And that is the point. So, it seems you believe that salvation of people, from the first century until at least before scriptures was available to the people, depended on the works of the preacher, and not on God. And after that, it changed a bit, in that, it also now depended on the individual, if he reads or not, though it still remains, that it depended not on God.

Well, on my part, I believe that, salvation of people ever and always depends on God. Do you want me to explain that to you?

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35962
  • Manna: 780
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #65 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 07:59:04 »
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #66 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:00:44 »
His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect.
I must say, without an animosity toward you personally or to any who holds your view of election, that your view of election is a most abhorrent view of God's character and trait.  I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.

I suggested above in Reply #58 above that RB consider again my earlier post. I would ask that you also consider it.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10631
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #67 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:04:48 »
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?
It is in the sense that the true word of God and about God is only available from God Himself.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35962
  • Manna: 780
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #68 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:06:41 »
Yes, thanks.

Offline Texas Conservative

  • Certified Resident Board Genius....The MAN, the MYTH, the LEGEND!
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10183
  • Manna: 374
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #69 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:13:39 »
Tex I am not promoting a formula or a 5 step plan just pointing out things not called works but draw the line at baptism. Yes being saved is not a formula it is belief and obedience to the best of your knowledge.  All the things I mentioned are in scripture.  The sinners prayer is not.

5 Step Plan is not mentioned in scripture either.  And in the more "hardline" CofC's that I dealt with, baptism was a work, everything was a work.  It was checklist Christianity and checklist worship.

And I don't agree with the Sinner's Prayer.  No it isn't biblical, and it isn't a replacement for baptism, which is a calling upon God in faith.

Attitude and the heart can tell you about much.