Author Topic: Requirements of Salvation  (Read 2157 times)

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #70 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:30:17 »
TC, I know that your so called 5 step plan you have labeled on the SOF really irritates you but you have to admit it is a biblical flow.

I do not see it as steps as you like to label it but it is most defiantly a flow as found in the scriptures. It is not a check list as you say but it is order of events as recorded in the word.

We see the gospel preached and in so doing we see one is instructed to do each but it is not steps as you say just the flow set forth in the word. They are all commands that God had recorded if you wish to call it steps then so be but it does not change the biblical importance of the command.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #70 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:30:17 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #71 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:43:28 »
TC, I know that your so called 5 step plan you have labeled on the SOF really irritates you but you have to admit it is a biblical flow.

I do not see it as steps as you like to label it but it is most defiantly a flow as found in the scriptures. It is not a check list as you say but it is order of events as recorded in the word.

We see the gospel preached and in so doing we see one is instructed to do each but it is not steps as you say just the flow set forth in the word. They are all commands that God had recorded if you wish to call it steps then so be but it does not change the biblical importance of the command.

It isn't a biblical flow.  It is a man made checklist.  You want to point out error in other groups, but you don't realize you have it as well with "The Stairway To Heaven."

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #72 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:47:43 »
Okay then tell me which of the so called 5 steps is not biblical. Let us discuss this so I can see my error.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #72 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 08:47:43 »

Offline RB

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #73 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:14 »
Concerning yogi's statement about your views on election, you said:Perhaps before doing so you could review the topic The Elect started by yogi some time ago.  And I would ask particularly that you would review the following

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-elect-104809/msg1055149684/#msg1055149684


You know 4WD, there's NOTHING to read there, the only thing is what you posted from Jack Cottrell which he corrupted the scriptures to fit his own views. Now if you want me to prove it, then I see no problem in doing so~is this what you desire?

You know, I can post a post TAKING God's word almost word for word and there is NO REBUTTAL from either you or others who believe what you teach. I just made one above, and did you or yogi attempt to TAKE THE SAME SCRIPTURES and prove that I misused them? No, you did not even attempt to do so. But, I live by a different standard and will address any post or a post by others that you are trusting in and refute it with scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 08:00:44
I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.
I KNOW that you find election OF GRACE despicable and all that believe the same~ one can see it in your sarcasm. If Jesus Christ and Paul were here you would speak the same into their teeth.  How do I know this? Because all one has to do is QUOTE the scriptures word for word and you would immediately say that you do not believe in THAT TYPE OF GOD, OR, begin to find other versions that may water down what God has said, OR, you will labor to apply election to service and not salvation, etc. etc. . But enough of the battle of man's words and feelings~ I rather take scriptures and DEBATE THEM something that is hard to get you and yogi to do. For example:  my post above went totally unanswered by both of you BY USING the SAME scriptures and prove that I'm misusing them.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:06:23 by RB »

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #73 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:14 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #74 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:27 »
Okay then tell me which of the so called 5 steps is not biblical. Let us discuss this so I can see my error.

You apparently didn't understand a word I was saying.  It is making it a checklist that is the problem.  A five finger exercise reduces scripture to a checklist.  And this checklist is preached as gospel.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #74 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:02:27 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #75 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:11:25 »
So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous? If you can't honestly answer that, I suggest you better rethink your position and reconsider your view of the salvation of God.
Michael, I have answered this you just don't hear. God does not do as you say that is only in your head the scriptures plainly teach that God wants all to be saved and has sent Christ to make it possible. All that believe the the Gospel call and respond are his elect. God has made a new covenant with us these days and a has laid out how we are to enter into that covenant.Only in your distorted thinking is anything said the way you are trying to say it. It is not scriptural the way you lay it out. To many scriptures say one has to believe or one has to repent ext ext so you need to rethink your line of reasoning.

The question is not whether you believe that God does that or not Mr. Yogi. If you were asked in a court, the judge would have told you the same. So, here's yet another opportunity for you to give your answer, and I ask one more time: So, what is your honest answer to the question, if you can answer it, if God only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant and not all of mankind to save to be His people, does that make God unjust and unrighteous?

Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?

But let me then guess, since you evade the simple question, that by what you say instead, that God will not do such a thing, means that you do find Him unjust and unrighteous, if He did such a thing. And that leads me to another question. Why would He be unjust and unrighteous in your thinking and view?

Quote from: Michael
Yes, easy to answer. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all. If you know what that means, then you'll realize that your answer presents a clear problem. For if it means as you say it means, that would have all of mankind redeemed. Are you suggesting that?

No Michael it is your lack of reasoning that you can not understand what I said. Salvation is not universal it is a covenant between man and God and means by which one enter in.

If you could just avoid the lack of reasoning excuse and remarks, that would be nice and kind of you to do. It does not help your argument in any way.

Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Quote from: Michael
This was my argument that you have not said a single word of rebuttal:

"The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not. Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Okay, if you don't have any comment and rebuttal, except that, then that's it then. We know what no rebuttal means. So, whatever it is you say there is obviously an excuse out.
Michael: "The Word did not become flesh to die and resurrect back to life, just so that all could have the choice between life and death, or just so that all could have the choice to be saved or not."

Yogi: Yes Christ did that very thing THe DB&R is the jest of the gospel call. It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond.

Michael: 'Had we not learned in scriptures, that even in the beginning, the choice had already been there and been before men to make the choice? And had we not learned yet that men ever falls to choosing death over life and so sin? Why? Do you not know yet? Is it because there was no way of salvation provided to all? Think about that."

Yogi: Michael I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like you are saying that God Gave Adam a choice and he chose rebellion. That because Adam sinned we all cannot help but do the same. if so you are partly right. WE all sin but not because Adam but because of our own weakness but we can chose to obey the gospel call and strive to live in the spirit. Yes salvation was always offered to all. Even Adam was reconciled.

So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?

Yogi, I am not saying anything about Adam.

Quote from: Michael
That's right, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And here's the whole of the matter: how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I have this question for you. Is then the having of faith by people depended on whether the gospel is preached or is not to them? That would be like, is the salvation of people dependent on whether the gospel is preached to them or not? Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

Yes Michael that is correct In Matthew 28:18-20 that is what Christ told he apostles to do and this day is our work to do also.
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV)
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I can not believe you had doubts about that it is plainly taught in the word.

Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #75 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:11:25 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #76 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:43:59 »
Quote
Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?


Michael that is your God you have made up My God the one of the bible is a just and righteous God yes and NO he is not like the God you have created in your mind  now I have answered this several times so move on if you don't like my answer I am sorry but I have answered.


Quote
Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Michael you see here is you default. Jesus nave his life for all but that did not automatically save all, all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation. Salvation is conditional one being one must have faith.


Quote
So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?


Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)
1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Quote
Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.
Not I but Jesus. Jesus is the one who sent us out into the world to preach the gospel of Christ. We are his workmen created in Christ to do this service for The Lord. His recorded word is what we are to spread. He gave us the gospel and sent us on our way. We are to speak the oracles of his word only not to add to or take from. His word as is recorded is all we have authority to teach.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #77 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:51:53 »
Paul's hearing, repenting, etc. gives evidence to his being saved. While no one knows the heart of a person, external and visible things somehow tells us of what is in the heart of a person. What other evidence then does the Christian look at in other Christians to somehow tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?
Only God knows what is actually in the heart of anyone.  You can look for clues, you can observe how he lives, how he acts, what he says.  But you can never actually determine whether he is saved or not. One of my most precious friends was one who more than most exhibited the evidence you look for as being saved.  It would not be until you asked him about it, could you really know.  He believed in God.  He did not believe God when God says that Jesus was His Son and was our Redeemer.  He was, according to the definition, a deist.  My point is, and it saddens me to this very day, that He did not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  He was a disbeliever.  But in terms of being a good person, he was among the very best.

If he does not believe in Jesus Christ, how could you say he believed in God? Or who is the God whom you say your friend believes? I know you know that no man know the Father, save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son will reveal the Father.

Going back to the topic, I'm glad we are in agreement that no one knows the heart of a person except God. So, we can only know as much who is truly saved or not, according to what the scriptures tells us concerning that.

Given that no one, except Jesus Christ, is perfect, then no one except Jesus Christ could provide the evidence that you are looking for.  Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again.  So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved?  All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you.

I disagree that Jesus is the only one who could provide the evidence. The evidence we are talking about is "hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, obedience." The reason why I've chosen Paul and not Jesus is exactly because Jesus could not be the example of that. For first of all, Jesus need no salvation. Jesus is no sinner. He isn't spiritually dead. He need not any repentance.

4WD: Being born again, being regenerated, being saved does not turn one into a perfect spiritual being free from ever sinning again. 

I disagree. There is a perfection time for the elect 4WD. Perhaps not now, but definitely there will be that time. That is why I said in one of my posts, regeneration is a process, not a one time event.

4WD: So how can you tell that one is a true Christian and is saved? All you have is his answer to the question of whether he is a true Christian and is saved.  If he answers in the affirmative, you have no option other that to accept his answer.  You cannot test his answer by observing anything about him, you cannot determine his spiritual condition by any of the evidence you are looking for.  Moreover, you have no authority to even make an evaluation base upon any evidence that you might have.  Such a determination is simply not up to you.

With absolute certainty, no man can tell. Only God can. But if I see any man who repents unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ, I would, as Paul did to those in his time who repented and believed in Jesus Christ, take him as a brethren in Christ ~ his hearing, repenting, believing, confessing, obedience, I would take as evidence that he is an elect as I believe I am. If I believe that I am saved, being an elect of God, having heard and hearing, repented and repenting, believed and believing, confessed and confessing, obeyed and keep trying to obey, there is no reason for me to not do so, unless, in the course of time, he would had been shown to be otherwise.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #78 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:54:12 »
Is not hearing the word of God an act of God?

What? Can you please explain and give clarification?

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #78 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:54:12 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #79 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 09:59:55 »
I KNOW that you find election OF GRACE despicable and all that believe the same~ one can see it in your sarcasm.
NO, I do not find election OF GRACE despicable. I find it the one of the most remarkable features of God.  However, I do find your view of the election OF GRACE despicable.  Let's be clear here, it is not you personally or specifically, that I find despicable; it is your view of God's  election OF GRACE despicable. Paul said, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined  [elected]....(Rom 8:29)."  Now notice, please, Paul DID NOT say "For those whom he predestined [elected]....., he also foreknew".  That of course is what you and your fellow Reformed Theologians claim and that is wrong.

As I said earlier, I consider your view of election to be a statement of nothing other than spiritual abortion by God Himself.  It is a complete and total rejection of most of humanity by God even before those rejected beings are even born.  And that as you claim being only by the express will of God.  And nothing could be further from the truth.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #80 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 10:10:48 »
I just made one above, and did you or yogi attempt to TAKE THE SAME SCRIPTURES and prove that I misused them? No, you did not even attempt to do so.
If that is a reference to your Reply #55 above, please say so, and I will go through it to show you why you have it all wrong.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #81 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 10:20:35 »
His having been elected by God to salvation was told to us in scriptures as also we are told of the rest of the Christians as having been elected, no different from Paul, who, without the working of God, would have not heard, repented and believed. If one will only look into Paul's conversion, he will come to realize of God's working of His salvation upon His elect.
I must say, without an animosity toward you personally or to any who holds your view of election, that your view of election is a most abhorrent view of God's character and trait.  I consider it to be absolutely despicable. It is, so far as I am concerned, spiritual abortion by God himself.  I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could attribute such a view to God for whom they claim to love and honor.  And it most definitely is not a view presented in the Scriptures.

I suggested above in Reply #58 above that RB consider again my earlier post. I would ask that you also consider it.

You have every right to believe what you believe 4WD, as do every man. But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false. So, what you say there against my view does not at all make my view false and your view true. I could feel and say the same to you regarding your view. But I would not say that, for the reason I just gave. Useless. What we all should do is consider what each of us says, each of us who cares enough to seek and know the truth, and start acting as spiritual brethren in Christ, loving one another as Jesus had done and shown to His disciples. We can reason for or against, but must be with love, meekness, honesty and purity of heart.

I will go check your reply #58.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #82 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 11:04:45 »
Peter was given the keys to the kingdom Jesus said what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.  He opened the door to the kingdom of heaven in Act 2.  He preached the first gospel sermon.  Remembering tha what hound on earth would be bound in heaven what did he preach?  What did he tell folks to do when they cried out “what shall we do”?  That should be the end but folks refuse to accept what Jesus promised and what Peter preached.
PS Tex if you look at the first gospel sermon you will find all the elements of your so called check list.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #83 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 11:15:19 »
Peter was given the keys to the kingdom Jesus said what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.  He opened the door to the kingdom of heaven in Act 2.  He preached the first gospel sermon.  Remembering tha what hound on earth would be bound in heaven what did he preach?  What did he tell folks to do when they cried out “what shall we do”?  That should be the end but folks refuse to accept what Jesus promised and what Peter preached.
PS Tex if you look at the first gospel sermon you will find all the elements of your so called check list.

No I won't.  I am not dismissing baptism.  I am dismissing the denominational 5 steps of salvation as a checklist.

The people in Acts 2 were contrite.  The checklist is treated like a checklist, like the ten commandments.  Do you not see the difference between those in Acts 2 and hardliners in the CofC teaching the 5 steps aka The Stairway To Heaven?


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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #84 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:30:39 »
But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false.
It is not what I believe about you or your beliefs.  It is about the logical implications of what you believe.  And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #85 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:34:16 »
You know 4WD, there's NOTHING to read there, the only thing is what you posted from Jack Cottrell which he corrupted the scriptures to fit his own views.
There are few theologians who corrupt the scriptures nearly so much as those of the Reformed Theology.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #86 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:42:48 »
Really Mr. Yogi, it's just a simple question. I asked for the purpose of knowing your outlook or sense of the justness and righteousness of God. Do you find Him to be unjust and unrighteous in a case where He only elected by grace, a select few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people?

Michael that is your God you have made up My God the one of the bible is a just and righteous God yes and NO he is not like the God you have created in your mind  now I have answered this several times so move on if you don't like my answer I am sorry but I have answered.

Yes, now you have given your answer, that is, you find the case of God's election of a few or a remnant of condemned mankind and not all, to save to be His people, as an unjust and unrighteous act. And that is why you don't believe it. That's clear. It's your judgment of what is just and what is righteous that actually is the basis for your belief against that.

Such a question was brought up by Paul regarding God's sovereignty and His election, whether there is unrighteousness in God when He elects people to harden and people to have mercy on, without regard to what they have done. And Paul's answer to that is plain and clear:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Some tried to explain this away by the "election to service" and not "election to salvation" argument. But that even does that take away the point of Paul's argument there concerning the acts of God in His sovereignty upon His creatures, even man.

If those scriptures will not shut the mouths of those who does not acknowledge this truth about God, I don't know what will.

Not only Paul testifies to that, but scriptures in general. Would you want me to show you scriptures where the sovereignty of God is shown as described and defined by Paul? Mr. Yogi, I did not create this God in my mind as you said in your excuse on your way out. It's what the scriptures says, the very scriptures you say you believe in. You have to read them Mr. Yogi. And in relation to what I am saying here about God's sovereign acts upon His creatures, especially man, you can consider reading what God had done as testified in Ezekiel 36. AFter reading, perhaps you can tell me what you have seen regarding this subject.

Quote from: Michael
Yes, we know and agree that not all mankind will be saved. And that is exactly my argument. You say that in 1 Tim. 2:6, the "all" there refers to all of mankind, which would make it that Jesus had given Himself a ransom for all men, that is, all of mankind He had redeemed. Now, if you are saying, as you seem to say, that "Salvation is not universal", then the "all" there would not mean what you say it means as to refer to all mankind. And that refutes your position and interpretation of that scriptures, as also then with your position and interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4. Do you not want to know then what "all" in 1 Tim. 2:6 refers to, and also that in 1 Tim.2:4?

Michael you see here is you default. Jesus nave his life for all but that did not automatically save all, all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation. Salvation is conditional one being one must have faith.

You said "Jesus gave his life for all but that did not automatically save all". Yes, it is you who said that, not scriptures. When Jesus died, He said "It is finished". What did He mean by that? One is that of His work of providing redemption completely, and that it presently stood finished. That regarding that, nothing more needed, or ever needs, to be done. The ransom is paid and so the redemption complete. And it redeemed only all those for whom He died for, and obviously not all of mankind. For if it was for all of mankind, then all would be saved as all have been then redeemed. 

And you said "all has to come to faith if not even though Christ died for them they reject that grace and forfeit their salvation." I'd like to throw in a few questions that perhaps you or the readers could consider as a food for thought. Forfeit their salvation? Is that a new doctrine from you? Can you forfeit something you don't have? Reject grace? Can one reject grace when God gives it? If you say that Christ died for all mankind, which thereby having Christ to have given His life a ransom for all mankind, which further thereby redeeming all mankind, and for which He already had done and so stood effective, could one really change that and make that ineffective? Even superman can't do that, could he? Giving up His life as a ransom for all, would only make "all" to mean not all of mankind but all of those whom Christ redeemed with His blood. Your position and view have Jesus dying needlessly and senselessly for those whom He will not save, even knowing all along those whom He saves. I don't believe that Jesus would do such a waste nor would God allow such a waste, senseless, and meaningless act.

It seems to me that you see the death of Christ in a limited sense.   

Quote from: Michael
So, you believe that it was necessary for Christ to do all that just so a choice between life and death or a choice to be saved or not, could be offered to all? And that, even while you acknowledge and believe that salvation was always offered to all even from the beginning? Well, you have a lot of explaining to do, as to why would that be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? Why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time? So, please go on, tell us and explain.

And you say "It is offered to ALL mankind even knowing few will respond." Tell us, why would He do that?
Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)
1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Well, that sure says a lot about the law, the animal sacrifices and that of Christ's, but it doesn't really address the point of my questions. It does not explain why it would be necessary at all for God to have to greatly humble Himself so much as to become a man, and even be in the form of a servant, and innocent as He is, be condemned as a criminal, undergo all the sufferings he suffered as written in scriptures, and die in the most humiliating and lowly death at the time, that is, by crucifixion? It does not explain why was that necessary, if and when, salvation, as you believe, is man's choosing of life over death, a choice that was ever available and offered to him to make, even at the beginning of time?

Now, if you say that is your explanation, so be it. For I know that, you nor anyone with your view, does not have an explanation for those.

Quote from: Michael
Then you are putting salvation in the hands of men.

While Jesus had given instructions to His apostles, it does not follow that by that, God had put upon the hands of men, the salvation of His people. If you will just read the Acts, you will find out the answer to the question I asked there which you did not answer (as also 4WD, who commented on this part of my post, did not care to answer this):

Who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached? Who do you say decides all those things?

If you found out the answer, I am sure it is not MAN.
Not I but Jesus. Jesus is the one who sent us out into the world to preach the gospel of Christ. We are his workmen created in Christ to do this service for The Lord. His recorded word is what we are to spread. He gave us the gospel and sent us on our way. We are to speak the oracles of his word only not to add to or take from. His word as is recorded is all we have authority to teach.
Because you had not found the answer, I would guess that you did not care to read the book of ACTS.

Perhaps all Christian knows about what you say there. But we also know that not all have the same ministry and work for the Lord. There are preachers, teachers, etc. Scriptures says that as the body have many members, so is the church. All are not mouths you know.

Now the point of the questions is that, behind the instructions of Jesus to His disciples to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations, in your reading of the Acts, who do you say directs the preaching of the gospel, who will preach, when it be preached, where it be preached, to whom will it be preached ~ who do you say decides all those things? If you had read the book of Acts as I suggested, and even better the NT epistles, you will find out that the answer to the question is the Holy Spirit, not Paul, not Peter, not James, not John, not any man. 

The point being is that, it is on God, that salvation of people is dependent upon, not on man. While it is man who believes, man could only believe and have faith, when he is quickened by God and God brings the gospel to him for his hearing, in God's time and manner.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #87 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:44:20 »
Tex I am not calling it a check list either.  Just pointing out that even though it is treated as a check list or a formula to follow in being saved the elements are all there.  I agree it should not be treated as a check list but it also should not be relegated to work or earning ones salvation.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #88 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 12:59:48 »
Tex I am not calling it a check list either.  Just pointing out that even though it is treated as a check list or a formula to follow in being saved the elements are all there.  I agree it should not be treated as a check list but it also should not be relegated to work or earning ones salvation.

My point isn't that baptism is a work.  It should be a submission to Christ and a calling on Him.  Sometimes it gets treated as a work, not just by Baptist types, but in how it is presented within some CofC's as well.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #89 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 13:15:28 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:20:35
But your view of what I believe, as also my view of what you believe, is not what makes what one believes to be true of false.
It is not what I believe about you or your beliefs.  It is about the logical implications of what you believe.  And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

The intelligent and educated atheist unbelievers I talked with have the same reasoning as yours when I told them about the message of the cross. They don't find the logic of the cross. They find it foolishness. I was not all surprised you know. For Paul had already told be of this.

4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.

Offline RB

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #90 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 14:23:35 »
NO, I do not find election OF GRACE despicable. I find it the one of the most remarkable features of God.  However, I do find your view of the election OF GRACE despicable.  Let's be clear here, it is not you personally or specifically, that I find despicable; it is your view of God's  election OF GRACE despicable. Paul said, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined  [elected]....(Rom 8:29)."  Now notice, please, Paul DID NOT say "For those whom he predestined [elected]....., he also foreknew".  That of course is what you and your fellow Reformed Theologians claim and that is wrong.
Okay, your one-sentence exposition of Romans 8:29 is so like those who have no truth to give from heaven. so when backed into a corner they are speechless.

Before I start, let me remind you for the umpteen time that I am not of the Reformed community of believers, who dislike me and my understanding as much as you do. But, I also will remind you that people should be very thankful for men like those of the Reformed community on many truths that they teach~for it was THEM for the most part that withstood Catholicism and exposed them for what they were worth, thieves and liars. Of course, those men are long gone and their children have gravitated back into the arms of the whore being seduced by her whoredoms and her many abominations. 

Quote from: Paul
Roamns 8:28~"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
If we love Him, as this text states (8:28), it is by God’s prior love for us (Ist John 4:19). The wicked never think of God, until God changes them (Psalms 10:4; John 6:44; Act 16:14). This will be quick and short.

There is no value in these words simply used as a mantra by those who do not love God. Those who love God are the righteous, and God blesses them (Psalm 34:12-22; 128:1-6). Loving God is not some mental assent about love, but a heart filled with love for Him. Those who love God with this promise are also identified as them who are the called of God. If any man loves God, it is because God has already called him to this love (I John 4:19). What does it mean to be called of God? It means God chose and appointed us His child! Our calling is our chosen or appointed role or vocation (Ist Corinthians 7:17-24; Ephesians 4:1; 5:1). God’s call can be appointment, or regeneration as a son, or the gospel call to act like one.

The call here is different and more than an invitation, offer, or request for us to choose. It is God’s charge, command, order, and ordination that result in us being sons of God and believing the gospel. ACTS 13:48

The Romans were called of God (Romans 1:6-7), or elect of God (Ist Corinthians 1:24-29; Ist Peter 1:2).

The gospel call to be sons is nothing compared to God’s authoritative call, appointment, ordination, and regeneration to be His sons (Matthew 22:14; Romans 9:11; Ephesians 1:3-12; Ist Peter 2:9).

The point here is that the declared facts of 8:28 are only for those called of God to be His. God’s purpose to work all things in their lives together for good is only true of His sons.

The calling or vocation we receive from God is according to his purpose, not at all our own. Salvation and calling are by God’s eternal purpose in Christ, not our works (2nd Timothy 1:9). If God has been merciful to us, it is according to His own good will (Matthew 11:25-26).
Quote from: Paul
Roamns 8:29~"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
The coordinating conjunction for shows this verse explains his purpose for the called (8:28). God’s purpose begins in foreknowledge, which is beyond omniscience; it is love beforehand! The Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew.

What God foreknew about us was sinful rebellion, without exception (Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3) He "KNEW" that if he did not elect some, then NONE would have been saved from sins on their own!

He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matthew 7:23; Psalms 5:5; 11:5). PLEASE CONSIDER THESE VERSES 4WD and yogi.

He loved His elect from everlasting, and always shall (Jeremaih 31:3; Epesiansh 1:4; 5:25; Revelation 13:8).

God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Ephesians 1:3-6).

Predestination, though hated and unpopular today, is a Bible doctrine we should and do love.

This Bible doctrine, which makes me a predestinarian, is here and in Ephesians 1:5,11.What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand. There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass?

Arminians have God predestinating men to hell just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election!

God’s purpose in creating the world and saving sinners is to build His family through Christ. God will do all that is necessary, which is considerable, to make sinners look like Jesus! Among the children of God, which He gave to Christ to save, Jesus will be preeminent! The drama of the whole universe is God’s display of saving grace in perfecting sinners! We shall be joint-heirs with Jesus as brothers, but He shall be the Firstborn (Colossians 1:15-18). We shall enjoy the fullest joy possible, as we will be glorified sons of God (I John 3:1-3). A day is coming, described here (8:17-25), when Jesus will own us as family (Hebrews 2:13).

« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 16:00:53 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #91 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 14:37:30 »
Please, keep those lies in own yard here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/~you guys by the time you labor to interpret everything into 66-70 A.D (a time period that has NO biblical sufficient)  there is NO BIBLE left to believe that it was written to EVERY saint throughout the church history untot he end of this "present" world

So, PLEASE as we would tell folks walking their dog KEEP THE DUNG in your own yard, and we will promise you not to walk therein for all of the landmines of lies!

You folks penknife God's word to pieces that do not support your doctrine and, not one scripture DOES! 70 A.D. is much like the secret Rapture lie, IF we have never heard of it, then we would never believe it from the scriptures for the simple reason IT IS NOT THERE, it's a lie from the pits of darkness.


And keep your disrespectful attitude to yourself!

I'll repeat for you that Jesus was talking to Jews and Jews only when He claimed that "only few will find it."  That's right. He was talking about Israel and those who would become Christians fella! Only the faithful remnant of Israel was going to be saved - hence a few finding salvation through Christ, the Messiah.
If we, (gentiles if you will) were also the "few" that would find it, then you might as well throw out the entire New Testament because all we need is John 3:16 to be saved. Not a FEW!

Offline 4WD

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #92 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:03:53 »
4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.
If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?And that is my point.  God doesn't do that.  He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.  We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #93 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:10:31 »
BlessedCreator  said:
Hi there!  Did you know that Jesus was referring to his kinsmen Jews when He said "few will find it?"

The narrow path was for His brethren at the time.  2/3  of the Jews were cut off at the time of God's wrath on them in AD 66-70. Only a remnant was saved so that they became believers in Christ , not the Law, in the end times of the old covenant Judaism.

I have never ever heard this interpretation before.  If both John 3:16 and the admonition that the path to salvation is a narrow gate are both in the ministry of Jesus, it is a stretch to insert this into the AD70 belief.  The path continues to be narrow.  Very few will find it.  How many Christian adherents are there in  the world at this moment?  How many are devout out of that number?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #94 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:16:48 »
Before I start, let me remind you for the umpteen time that I am not of the Reformed community of believers, who dislike me and my understanding as much as you do.
First, RB, you know that I do not dislike you.  That is a cheap shot.  But second whether or not you are not of the Reformed community of believers all I can say is that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck......

That is like Michael declaring that he is not a Calvinist.  But in truth you, Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology.  That you all might deviate somewhat from each other from that onward is all rather beside the point.

I will come back to the rest of your post later  -- probably tomorrow.  I have a couple of Honey Dos lined up for me now.

Offline RB

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #95 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:51:07 »
And keep your disrespectful attitude to yourself!

I'll repeat for you that Jesus was talking to Jews and Jews only when He claimed that "only few will find it."  That's right. He was talking about Israel and those who would become Christians fella! Only the faithful remnant of Israel was going to be saved - hence a few finding salvation through Christ, the Messiah.
If we, (gentiles if you will) were also the "few" that would find it, then you might as well throw out the entire New Testament because all we need is John 3:16 to be saved. Not a FEW!


Lea, take this to the Preterist forum and I'll come there and PROVE how you and others are children of Jehudi!
Quote
Jeremeiah 36:23~"And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth."
You are JUST AS GUILTY as Jehudi by taking God's word and laboring to put MOST of it back into 67-70 A.D. and saying it does NOT apply to Christians living post 70 A.D. You basically leave us WITHOUT a Bible to heed and follow FOR US.

If you believe that I have a  disrespectful attitude, then you continue as you are doing and see how Christ will treat you on that day, a day I'm not sure you even believe in! But, I'll leave that to God to judge for I'm ready to call fire down out of heaven on such people who show disrespect to God's precious word.
Quote
Jeremeiah 36:23~"And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth."
I assume you DO KNOW the rest of this story do you not?
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 15:58:09 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #96 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 16:09:58 »
First, RB, you know that I do not dislike you.  That is a cheap shot.  But second whether or not you are not of the Reformed community of believers all I can say is that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck......

That is like Michael declaring that he is not a Calvinist.  But in truth you, Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology.  That you all might deviate somewhat from each other from that onward is all rather beside the point.

I will come back to the rest of your post later  -- probably tomorrow.  I have a couple of Honey Dos lined up for me now.

Well it seems to me that you will never believe our words. As to why, at least with regards me, I would not really know. But my guess is because, you had already judged me and clothed me as a Calvinist. So, no matter what, you just see me as you want to see me, a Calvinist, and treat me as a Calvinist, like in this post, saying "Michael and the Calvinists all begin with the unbiblical, nonbiblical, false doctrine of Total Depravity and go on from that to completely wrong soteriology." And if you had judged a Calvinist, as holding on to false doctrines, speaking of doctrines, are false teachers, or even devils, it only follows that you had judged me like so as well. And you think that such thing you do is good. And if you think it is good, perhaps you would even promote such actions and encourage others to do like you do. Would you? Or would you rather encourage others to not do as you do?

I could understand by what you have shown us over forums, your dislike and perhaps, hate against the Calvinist, or better yet, against the doctrines of Calvin. But, attacking Calvin, or the the person? For what? Attack the doctrine, not only by shouting out your opinion that they are false and demonic, for that does little good to none. Attack them by exposing their falsehood using the light of the truth in scriptures. Take note, using the light of the truth in scriptures, not in anywhere else. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #97 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 16:32:58 »
4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.
If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?And that is my point.  God doesn't do that.  He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.  We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.

If you'll notice, I completed the incomplete quote in your post in reply to my post reply#89, so I don't have to go back and see the context of what you had quoted in my post.

4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?

4WD: He doesn't do as you say.  He doesn't bring us individuals into the world as fallen sinful beings.

What did I say God does and for which you object to and say that God does not do such? Again, strawman or what? You are slowly moving away from what I've written and discussed in my post for which you are responding to in your post.

4WD: We come into this world free of sin. It is only when we choose to sin that we become the fallen sinful beings. And it is only in doing so that it becomes our fault.

Do you now want for us to leave our subject discussion by bringing that up? Just say so. And if you do, you can start a new thread with that as the topic. And I'd be happy to deal with that issue.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #98 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:26:20 »
4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?
If you believe that man is a sinner when born and if you believe that God unconditionally elects only some to salvation then whether or not you have actually said those words, that is what you mean.  If God unconditionally elects only some to salvation, then by definition God unconditionally elects all the rest for condemnation  --  PERIOD.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #99 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:50:31 »
Michael, Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #100 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 09:11:21 »
4WD: If God operates as you say in bringing every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and then refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being, whose fault but God is it?

Firstly, I had never said that God brings every individual into the world as a fallen sinful being and refuses to do anything that would help that fallen sinful being. Strawman or what?
If you believe that man is a sinner when born and if you believe that God unconditionally elects only some to salvation then whether or not you have actually said those words, that is what you mean.  If God unconditionally elects only some to salvation, then by definition God unconditionally elects all the rest for condemnation  --  PERIOD.

The following is where this was all coming from.

4WD: And if you believe that God, giving no considerations to the individual, has consigned that individual to hell, then there is no justice [righteousness] in God's actions based upon God's own definition of Justice [righteousness].

Why one goes to Hell is not God's fault. You know that.

Why some even goes to heaven is God's plan and God's grace.

If God made one a vessel of dishonor and another a vessel of mercy, scriptures said, there is no unrighteousness in God, who is the sovereign creator. That is no different from saying that if God elected to save some and others not, there is no unrighteousness with God. And this is the bottom line of the whole matter:

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

As for me, that shuts my mouth up, and bow down to God, who created me and acknowledge that He can do to me as He pleases and for His glory. I have sinned and deserving of Hell. That God saved me is not my doing. For that I thanked God with all of me. Should God had not elected to save me, I have nothing to say against God. For I acknowledge, I am just a creature, and I have and can't have anything against Him, nor hold or can hold anything against Him, not even His words or promise. Because He is God, and because He is my God. He deserves far more honor than this.

Obviously those scriptures did not shut you up.

And you had moved away from the subject discussion. If you want to start another subject discussion, please just say so.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #101 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 10:36:02 »
Michael, Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?


Before I answer that, let me ask you also a simple question. Are you ignoring my reply post in the following link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/requirements-of-salvation/msg1055162872/#msg1055162872




yogi:Do you agree that salvation is equal to entering into a covenant with God. The old covenant has waxed old and now we are in a new covenant and one has to be saved to enter into said covenant?

Salvation from sin and from the wage of sin, that is death, is not equal to entering into covenant with God. Let me clarify or qualify that.

I would assume you are not an Israelite, the descendants of Jacob. They were chosen first by God to be His people, a Holy nation, a kingdom of priests. In that sense, they were chosen for salvation and service. So, in that sense, salvation is not equal to entering into a covenant with God, but is by grace, by God's election of grace. Their being in covenant with God is only a by product of that.

The Old covenant was a covenant between God and the children of Israel. The non-Israelite had nothing to do with that, though those who become proselytes effectively put themselves in covenant with God in that sense. Whether they acknowledge that the Mosaic covenant had been done away with or not, that does not take away the fact that the Mosaic covenant had been replaced by a new covenant. However, their unbelief or disbelief in the gospel of Jesus Christ or their rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah, placed them out of covenant with God, that is, the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. They are now all living in blindness and deafness, hardened as to still not hear nor see that their covenant with God under the Mosaic covenant, is no more. This will be so for the Israelites in general, and for a time. For scriptures says concerning them, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".   

Salvation, both for those called the uncircumcision (non Israelites) and those called the circumcision (Israelites or Jews, including the proselytes), in scriptures, in the tone and language nearest to a covenant sense, is only expressed in this way:

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

In the tone and language of grace, scriptures expressed salvation in this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #102 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 10:53:41 »
The following is where this was all coming from.
No, this started, in part at least, with your Reply #2 where you screamed and hollered the following:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
  And that was in response to the OP by BlessedCreator as if that somehow was a refutation to everything BlessedCreator posted even though you didn't actually address a single thing posted in the OP.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 10:56:14 by 4WD »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #103 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 12:02:39 »
No, this started, in part at least, with your Reply #2 where you screamed and hollered the following:   And that was in response to the OP by BlessedCreator as if that somehow was a refutation to everything BlessedCreator posted even though you didn't actually address a single thing posted in the OP.

The subject is "requirements of salvation".

The two scriptural passages I quoted actually addresses the subject, and I quote again. Perhaps, you need to look at the scriptures closely this time and just maybe, you will see or not see the salvation of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's a lot to see here that the able eyes can see.

Do you see that the salvation of God is by grace?
Do you see that the salvation of God is through faith?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of yourself or of your doing?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of works?
Do you see that the saved are God's workmanship?
Do you see that the saved are a new creation in Christ, by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so that you agree with what BC said in the OP?



Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else, who justifies?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Jew?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Gentile?
Do you see that it is by faith that the Jew is justified by God?
Do you see that it is through faith that the Gentile is justified by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so, that you agree with what BC said in the OP? 




Do you want me to, in detail and point by point, refute the OP? BC don't even show up and care to reply. Would you be representing him and speak for him and respond to refutations of the OP? Just say so.

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Re: Requirements of Salvation
« Reply #104 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 12:44:35 »
The subject is "requirements of salvation".

The two scriptural passages I quoted actually addresses the subject, and I quote again. Perhaps, you need to look at the scriptures closely this time and just maybe, you will see or not see the salvation of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's a lot to see here that the able eyes can see.

Do you see that the salvation of God is by grace?
Do you see that the salvation of God is through faith?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of yourself or of your doing?
Do you see that the salvation of God is not of works?
Do you see that the saved are God's workmanship?
Do you see that the saved are a new creation in Christ, by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so that you agree with what BC said in the OP?



Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else, who justifies?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Jew?
Do you see that it is God and it is not man or anybody else who justifies the Gentile?
Do you see that it is by faith that the Jew is justified by God?
Do you see that it is through faith that the Gentile is justified by God?

Or do you not see all that, so much so, that you agree with what BC said in the OP? 




Do you want me to, in detail and point by point, refute the OP? BC don't even show up and care to reply. Would you be representing him and speak for him and respond to refutations of the OP? Just say so.
Nothing in those verses refute the subject of the OP  --  Requirements of [for] Salvation.

 

     
anything