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Offline RB

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Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 08:45:55 »
Introduction:

Here are details of God’s transfer of gospel and kingdom privileges from Israel to Gentiles, as prophesied by OT prohets~ Which can be summed up as the great mystery of godliness was thus finished (Ist Timothy 3:16)~ preached to Gentiles, believed in the world..... which was hidden from Israel as a nation~And for someone to preach this, especially so Gentiles dogs would be heresy to all Jews not born of God, and even those who were, Paul was persecuted for preaching this TRUTH.

Paul began and continued Romans 9-11 with great care and desire for his elect countrymen (9:1-5; 10:1-4). A true biblical understanding of what has been taught in chapters 9-10 (and 1-8) will certainly help one's comprehension here.

Romans 11 is a difficult chapter e.g. Jewish restoration fables, election, and blinding, branches broken off and grafted in again, difficult definitions and timing, phases of salvation, various uses of same words, etc.

It is impossible to find teachers that agree with all the details of this chapter. Many teachers avoid it if at all possible, or they just follow other's teachings for this chapter that is difficult even for a well-taught student of the scriptures.

Gentiles should learn respect (11:16), humility (11:18,25), fear (11:20-22), thankfulness (11:22), and evangelistic zeal (11:14,30-32) by this lesson of God’s mercy toward the elect remnant of the Jewish nation.

It glorifies the inscrutable wisdom and mercy of God as Paul closes it with exclamatory praise and worship.

This chapter will finish Paul’s teaching of God’s mercies, leading to our living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2) and miscellaneous practical duties in the rest of the epistle typical of Paul’s division of doctrine and practice.

Later....RB
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 13:26:39 by RB »

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Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 08:45:55 »

Offline RB

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #1 on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 14:23:04 »
Summary and outline to consider Romans eleven:

God elected only some of national Israel to be His people, and He cast away the rest, leaving them in perpetual and total darkness. In providential wisdom, He also blinded some of elect Israel to further assist redirecting the gospel to the Gentiles during this key reformational and transitional generation. Most miss this truth, thereby, leaving them wresting with the true meaning of Romans eleven. Gentiles were to respect these blind but elect Jews, be humbled by the exchange, fear their own gospel standing, desire Jewish conversions, and be thankful. When this transfer of gospel and kingdom privileges from Israel to Gentiles was complete, the blind part of elect Israel would convert. This happened for the most part DURING the time of the true biblical reformation~ who could conceive such dealings without revelation teaching this truth? All glory to God!


Romans 11: 1-6 God had an elect remnant in Paul’s day like in Elijah’s day.

7-10 God had completely and permanently blinded reprobate Israel.

11-15 Elect Israel stumbled at the gospel for the Gentiles and jealousy.

16-24 Gentiles to be appreciative and humble; Israel may be recovered.

25-29 Some elect Israelites were blinded to the gospel for Gentiles.

30-32 God brought about mercy to elect Gentiles and to elect Israel.

33-36 God’s electing grace and wisdom are worthy of great adoration.

Biblical truths taught elsewhere given to Guide the Interpretation of this Chapter.

There is an obvious election within the nation of Israel that is identified as God’s true children (9:6,24), etc. Most will agree with this.  There is no further benefit for being an Israelite in 9-11, as God’s children are distinct from the nation. The election in Israel must be kept in mind to rightly identify “Israel” as national Israel or elect Israel. There is a part of Israel that is absolutely not children of God's promises: (9:24; 11:7; Matthew 23:33; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; Galatians 4:21-31). Scripture has no private interpretations, so only doctrine taught elsewhere in the Bible should be found here. We require two or three witnesses as a minor rule of Bible interpretation before teaching any doctrine.

Many are the wild notions about a latter-day conversion of national Israel that are created from this text. The Jews do not have anything held out for them in this chapter that is not held out for them in other places.

We will not put up a middle wall of partition in any way to restore Jewish privilege that Jesus destroyed. We will defend the finished work of the cross that Jews and Gentiles are one (Galatians 3:28-29; Ephesians 2:14-22). The true Israel is a spiritual seed from every nation under heaven. Revelation 7:9,10. The real seed of Abraham is not natural Jews, and they have never been

The millennial kingdom is now, and will not be in the future in Jerusalem which is now.  Paul rejected Jewish fables as contrary to the gospel and to be opposed by great ministerial zeal (Titus 1:9-16). The warning is clear enough and the apostolic history clear enough that there were heresies circulating. Any idea of restoration to the land, earthly Jerusalem, a third temple, or Jewish preeminence is heresy. There is no New Testament support for earthly revival, restoration, or anything remarkable for them.

I will follow the Lord Jesus and Paul regarding them (Matthew 23:33; Hebrews 12:22-24; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; Galatians 4:21-31). There is no future regathering, salvation, revival, or program of any kind for biological or national Jews. God blinded that rebellious biological and national people with extraordinary blindness to the gospel. We still see this blindness today and will always see it.

God’s elect of both Jews and Gentiles comprise one new kingdom, nation, body, or church in Christ. The tabernacle of David, or another term for the olive tree, was being built currently (Acts 15:13-18). Any present or future kingdom must be spiritual and described elsewhere (Hebrews 12:22-24,28-29; 13:14).

The real seed of Abraham and heirs of the promises are Christ’s by faith and baptism (Galatians 3:16,26-29). Rightly dividing scripture for the sense is key, as several terms are used differently (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15).

Consider 11:1-2 with 11:15, where they absolutely were not cast away, but they in fact were cast away! Consider 11:11-12, where they absolutely did not fall, but did fall, and their fall produced great things! Is it national or elect Israel? Which one of the two Israels found in 9:6 is to be understood in 11:1-11? Proportion will avoid extreme views of one generation of believing Jews trumping 2000 years of enmity. Jewish blindness has not contributed to any Gentile conversion you know personally outside scripture. Jealousy does not run under the surface for 2000 years and then results in a generation loving Christ. One future generation of converted Jews does not match 70 generations since Paul that hated Christ!

In these chapters, Israel = Jews, Gentiles = non-Jews, and the two are never combined as “Israel” (Galatians 6:16). The key verse is 11:11, as you must identify an antecedent for the pronouns and stick with it in the chapter. This antecedent had fallen, but had not fallen, and their fall was for the benefit of the Gentiles and Jews. This antecedent had fallen, but there was still potential for them to be saved by Paul’s labors (11:14-15).

Quote
No matter how you interpret 11:1-10, you must apply 11:11 to one or the other half of Israel in 11:1-10. No matter how you interpret 11:1-10, you must see 11:11 as a description of elect but blinded Jews. If 11:1-10 describes converted and blinded parts of elect Israel, “they” of 11:11 must be the blinded rest. If 11:1-10 describes elect and reprobate parts of national Israel, “they” of 11:11 must be the election.

Prophetic perspective identifies and separates future tense verbs of quoted verses from the current writing. For example, the future tense of Acts 2:17 was future only to Joel, not to Peter who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Acts 15:16 was future only to Amos, not James who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Heb 8:8-12 was future only to Jeremiah, not the writer of Hebrews who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Heb 12:26 was future only to Haggai, not to the writer of Hebrews who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Mat 17:11 was future only to Malachi, not Jesus, who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Rom 11:26-27 was future only to Isaiah, not Paul who limited it to then.

Eternal life and gospel salvation must be understood based on the rest of scripture and preceding chapters. Eternal life is an unconditional gift of God, and gospel faith is not~ it has conditions, instruments, or means.

The only salvation that was a mere possibility and Paul could bring about himself is gospel salvation. Gospel salvation is that which is found in such places as Ist Timothy 4:16 and Ist Corinthians 15:2 and James 5:19-20, etc., etc. The salvation Paul has been pursuing (10:1) has been gospel conversion only for elect Israelites only.

By cheating ahead, we see a blinded, elect portion of Israel that was a “mystery” requiring explanation that truly explains the whole chapter, since Paul “might” save “some” of these.
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Blinded national Jews were no mystery at all, because they are described throughout the scriptures and in this epistle as early as chapter 2.
Do not let Luke 21:24 cause confusion. The times of the Gentiles are this and the last dispensation on earth. There is no reason to equate “times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” and “fullness of the Gentiles come in.” Nothing has changed in 72 years since 1948 (state of Israel in Middle East); do not presume a change.

Some verses are more key than others in opening the passage for properly understanding its overall lessons. The pronoun “they” in 11:11 is most key, as a division between 11:1-10 and 11:11-32 must occur. The olive tree needs to be correctly identified and not simply assumed or overlooked as obvious. There is a “mystery” in 11:25, and a number of facts about the Jews was no mystery at all. Find one. The fullness of the Gentiles should be more closely connected to 11:12 than Luke 21:24 by a long shot. All Israel being saved in 11:26 should be identified by the Israel in context and the salvation prophesied.

There are unconverted elect in this passage (11:28-29), and their case and precedent are quite important. The timing issues of the chapter are fascinating since the majority of expositors rush to distant futurism. The tabernacle of David, or another term for the olive tree, was being built currently (Acts 15:13-18).
Note Paul’s use of the present in 11:1,5,11,14,17,22-24,25,28,30-32. There is nothing of a distant future. Jewish blindness then or for the last 2000 years does not assist our conversion or theirs in the future.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 14:39:34 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #2 on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 14:55:56 »
I need to give some more thought to what you a have presented there. I will comment on one aspect.  You have inserted your preconceived ideas concerning election and reprobation into the text.  That will necessarily interpret the passage different from how I interpret it.  But I will keep reading and comment as I see appropriate.

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #2 on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 14:55:56 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 15:40:52 »
Red, I will try to get in the middle of this as soon as I can.

I would say at first blush, that the original Jewish converts in the early part of Acts were not blinded and the rest are partially blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. I don't see a group that is permanently blinded. Some may choose to remain permanently blind, but I don't see any cast in the "permanently reprobate" bucket from the text of Chapter 11. Obviously not All of either the Jews or the Gentiles will come through unscathed in my opinion. If their hearts are pricked unto Godly sorrow, then that like the 3000 in Acts 2 will lead to repentance which leads to salvation.

In my opinion, the Jews in verses 1 - 6 are the same Jews as in verses 7 - 10, not two different groups. I think one would have to apply some heavy bias to arrive at two different groups of Jews.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 15:52:23 by Jaime »

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 10, 2020 - 15:40:52 »
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Offline RB

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 04:14:20 »
I need to give some more thought to what you a have presented there. I will comment on one aspect.
Brother, I have not inserted my preconceived ideas concerning election and reprobation into the text. Paul started out in this chapter making it clear that not ALL Israel is cast away~proving his own election and conversion to the truth.
Quote from: 4WD
That will necessarily interpret the passage differently from how I interpret it.
Then maybe you are approaching Romans 11 with your own preconceived ideas~I'm not judging your spirit, for it is something every man at one time in his walk with Christ has done. It is very hard to UNLEARN a position that we have held on to for a period of time, especially so the longer we have embraced it as truth.
Quote from: 4WD
But I will keep reading and comment as I see appropriate
May God be gracious to all of us and grant his truth to us, to the degree that we love it and seek it. Romans 11 as I have said is not easy to rightly divide~ it does take work, and mercy from heaven, just as Daniel sought mercy from God concerning the dream. 

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 04:14:20 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 04:29:04 »
Brother, I have not inserted my preconceived ideas concerning election and reprobation into the text.
Then let me correct that to say that you have inserted the erroneous Calvinist ideas concerning election and reprobation into the text.

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 04:29:04 »

Offline RB

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #6 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 04:39:57 »
Then let me correct that to say that you have inserted the erroneous Calvinist ideas concerning election and reprobation into the text.
If that makes you feel secure more in what you believe to be the truth then that's between you and The Lord and Author of the scriptures.

4WD, Calvinism is much like Baptist churches in this world, there are many different teachings among those who call themselves Baptist. Most likely there are not two of them the same if I had my guess and knowing them as I do.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #7 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 05:02:10 »
4WD, Calvinism is much like Baptist churches in this world, there are many different teachings among those who call themselves Baptist. Most likely there are not two of them the same if I had my guess and knowing them as I do.
That may be so.  However, Calvinism, in all the different teachings with respect to soteriology, begin with the same fundamental error of Total Depravity. Beginning any discussion with a false premise will almost always result in a false conclusion.  And such is the result of beginning with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

Offline RB

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #8 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 05:22:14 »
That may be so.  However, Calvinism, in all the different teachings with respect to soteriology, begin with the same fundamental error of Total Depravity. Beginning any discussion with a false premise will almost always result in a false conclusion.  And such is the result of beginning with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
Brother, I can say the same to you that "IF" you do not start there in respect to soteriology then your whole system of doctrines will be in error.

I would recommend all of us to start where Paul did in Romans chapter three beginning with these scriptures:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:10-23~"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
These words given by the Holy Ghost to men of God of old proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL MEN are born SINNERS, and when left to themselves will degenerate deeper into some of the most horrible acts of wickedness Imaginable to the human mind.

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #8 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 05:22:14 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #9 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 05:37:34 »
Brother, I can say the same to you that "IF" you do not start there in respect to soteriology then your whole system of doctrines will be in error.

I would recommend all of us to start where Paul did in Romans chapter three beginning with these scriptures: These words given by the Holy Ghost to men of God of old proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL MEN are born SINNERS, and when left to themselves will degenerate deeper into some of the most horrible acts of wickedness Imaginable to the human mind.
That says not one thing about all men being born sinners.  That is you again inserting Total Depravity into the text. 

It is also inserting some terribly misbegotten concept of "faith of Jesus". RB, the writer of Hebrews states that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1).  There is simply no rational way that you can apply that to Jesus.  The "faith of Jesus" can be interpreted as God's plan of salvation, i.e., the religious system which God put in place as the way of salvation.  It simply cannot be interpreted as something that Jesus believed; the faith of Jesus cannot be thought of as mental assent of facts and trust in God. If that were the case, then Jesus was nothing more than a mere mortal, only human, perhaps really a nice person but certainly not fully God.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 05:49:28 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #10 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 07:27:41 »
That says not one thing about all men being born sinners.  That is you again inserting Total Depravity into the text. 
4WD, it does not have to say~it's clearly seen. I really do not want to go there now on this subject of human depravity from birth, but will only add one or two thoughts briefly:

Jesus Christ was not begotten through Adam's generation, or posterity, but was begotten of God in the womb of Mary. That's why he is termed the second Adam. His virgin birth was absolutely necessary to keep him from having a SINFUL FLESH.

Also, if infants are sinless, then why did not God saved some of them during the flood? It would have been unrighteous on God's part to destroy the innocent with the wicked. There're other cases we could present but will forbear for now.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:37:34
It is also inserting some terribly misbegotten concept of "faith of Jesus". RB, the writer of Hebrews states that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1).  There is simply no rational way that you can apply that to Jesus.  The "faith of Jesus" can be interpreted as God's plan of salvation, i.e., the religious system which God put in place as the way of salvation.  It simply cannot be interpreted as something that Jesus believed; the faith of Jesus cannot be thought of as mental assent of facts and trust in God. If that were the case, then Jesus was nothing more than a mere mortal, only human, perhaps really a nice person but certainly not fully God.
I will only say this for now~Jesus was BOTH fully man, and fully God, thereby being of a complex nature, that was ever separated with him and acted totally separate from each other, answers "your" seemly delima...I say yours, for it is not so according to the word of God.

"As a man", he fulfilled God's law perfectly by his faith in God, and WE IN HIM did so as well, which is the ONLY ground of our free justification by God's grace.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Revisiting Romans chapter eleven
« Reply #11 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 10:20:57 »
4WD, it does not have to say~it's clearly seen. I really do not want to go there now on this subject of human depravity from birth, but will only add one or two thoughts briefly:

Jesus Christ was not begotten through Adam's generation, or posterity, but was begotten of God in the womb of Mary. That's why he is termed the second Adam. His virgin birth was absolutely necessary to keep him from having a SINFUL FLESH.
Mary was a descendent of Adam.  Therefore He was indeed begotten through Adam's generation or posterity.  If not, then he was in no way human in any part let alone fully human as you proclaim and as He most certainly was.  To be human is to be a descendent of Adam.  His virgin birth was necessary for Him to be the begotten Son of God; that has nothing whatsoever to do with original sin.

Quote
Also, if infants are sinless, then why did not God saved some of them during the flood? It would have been unrighteous on God's part to destroy the innocent with the wicked.
While physical death may result from the actions of some sins, sin or the lack thereof is not connected in any way with physical death as punishment.  There is nothing unrighteous about God's allowing or even causing the physical of anyone. The death due to sin is spiritual death.

Quote
"As a man", he fulfilled God's law perfectly by his faith in God, and WE IN HIM did so as well, which is the ONLY ground of our free justification by God's grace.
Again with the absolute nonsense about Jesus' faith in God.  I posed a question and I will pose it again.  In Hebrews we read that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). There is no way to apply that to Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity.  Faith in God is believing in God without knowing God in the absolute.  He was not mentally deficient about God in any way whatsoever.

I would add here that in Hebrews Chapter 11 the writer presents a number of very prominent persons who demonstrated their faith.  But, curiously, Jesus is not one of them.  If Jesus possessed and demonstrated the faith that you [erroneously]ascribe to Him, it would have been a serious breech to not list Him among the great persons of faith.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 10:27:16 by 4WD »