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Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 9019 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #315 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:37:21 »
Noah’s ark was the anti-type. My version NASB says corresponding to that baptism now saves you, not like washing dirt off the body, but as an appeal to God FOR a clean conscience.

Isn't baptism the anti-type?

Anyway, considering the NASB, and taking Noah's ark, that would make the verse saying that baptism corresponds to Noah's ark? Please do be kind enough to explain just a little bit more in detail.

I'll say it again then, taking what you say that baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience via the remission of sins, how does baptism corresponds to that said in verse 20 regarding the eight persons, who were brought safely through the water in the days of Noah and the flood?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #315 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:37:21 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #316 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:53:45 »
The ark saved Noah’s family through the water. Baptism NOW Saves us as an appeal to God for a clean conscience. Pretty simple really. The same appeal Paul did when he was baptized washing away his sins calling upon the Lord......... for what? A clean conscience of course as God remitted his sins.

And I will say this, I didn’t say baptism was an appeal to God for a clean conscience, scripture does. I just repeated it. Big difference.

« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:00:41 by Jaime »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #316 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:53:45 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #317 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:02:45 »
The ark saved Noah’s family through the water. Baptism NOW Corresponds to that as the verse says, as an appeal to God for a clean comscience.

I hope that you have shown to the people reading this thread, how baptism is an anti-type to Noah's ark by that.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #317 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:02:45 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #318 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:05:33 »
I have, as scripture clearly has. I hope YOU can open your eyes soon.

God saved Noah through the water. He now saves us through the water. Water that is totally spiritually inert. HE does His work IN the water. As he did with Noah. He coulda chose something else but he didn’t.

Michael, I really hope you aren’t being purposely obtuse. This isn’t that difficult.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:42:43 by Jaime »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #318 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:05:33 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #319 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:15:04 »
Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
        while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pet. 3:21 The like FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Figure is 499  antitupon, an-teet´-oo-pon; neuter of a compound of 473 and 5179; corresponding (“antitype”), i.e. a representative, counterpart: — (like) figure (whereunto).

g473. anti, an-tee´; a primary particle; opposite, i.e. INSTEAD or because of (rarely in addition to): — for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, CORRESPONDENCE, etc.

g5179. tupos, too´-pos; from 5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by implication) a stamp or scar; by analogy, a shape, i.e. a statue, (figuratively) style or resemblance; specially, a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): — en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.

All we have to do instead of building an Ark is INSTEAD OF: isn't that GRACEFUL.

Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES because in ASKING or INSTEAD OF God gives us A holy spirit or A good conscience.  The ARK is not defined as a boat but a COFFIN.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #319 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:15:04 »



Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #320 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:32:44 »
Michael, I understand he who believes yes there are several verses that state that but what does it mean to believe?

You say that to believe includes confessing Christ before man and repentance  but the bible doesn't stop with just that the bible also includes baptism as part of our faith. It teaches one that is considered a believer was baptized into Christ see Acts 19:1-5

So if the bible includes one that believes as having been baptized into Christ  what do you understand one that believes means?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #320 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:32:44 »

Offline RB

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #321 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:33:25 »
Becoming a Christian is not a want that could be acquired by doing this or that.

One becomes a Christian, when God grants him repentance, that he repents towards God and believe in Christ.

The right to become children of God is not something that could be earned nor bought. It is something that is given by God, given to those who receive Christ and believe in His name, those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Amen Michael~good post...this is said NOT to put our brother Jaime down, he's a good man but his problem with 1st Peter 3:21 is here:
Quote from: Jaime Reply #308 on: Today at 08:23:25
Michael, calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience is an APPEAL TO God for such. Where’s the confusion on this?
My brother you can start HERE:
Quote from: Jaime Reply #314 on: Today at 11:06:12
My version NASB says corresponding to that baptism now saves you, not like washing dirt off the body, but as an appeal to God FOR a clean conscience.
The word of God said this:
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter 3:21~"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
AN answer OF and an appeal FOR are two different statement altogether. The difference between our participation in the new birth and the RESULT OF being born of God. Selah!

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #322 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 12:45:54 »
Red, the word of God says FOR not from. The NASB is superior to the KJV because it utilized older transcripts, closer in time to the original.

Also, when it is rendered an appeal FOR, it is perfectly congruant with Paul’s baptism in Acts 22. Paul had his sins to his credit and they needed to be addressed. Paul couldn’t appeal to God FROM A clear conscience UNTIL his sins were remitted as Ananias advised. Arise and be baptized and wash away his sins calling upon the Lord, appealing to the Lord FOR a clean conscience, not at all FROM a clean comscience that he didn’t have with his sins still on him.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 17:08:28 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #323 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 13:15:07 »
The Old English ANSWER means to REQUEST or ASK.  God Elects or invites us to be saved: we answer by REQUESTING what He offers.  The finished work of Jesus as the TYPE or a "pattern intended to be imitated" gives us the confidence to ASK for eternal life.  We OBEY a FORM as ANTI meaning that we are BAPTIZED instead of dying for our own sins which would have no more effect than just claiming to BELIEVE the association between BAPTISM and washing away of sins, remission of sins, giving us A new, holy spirit, being added to the church and having our righteous spirits MADE PERFECT.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21KJV

    However, the definition of words and other versions prove that it is at the time and place of water baptism that we ASK for God to give us a clean conscience which is the gift of A holy spirit.

    And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21NAS

    Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21RSV

    (That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ;[c] not because our bodies are washed clean by the water but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.) 1 Peter 3:21LIV

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #323 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 13:15:07 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #324 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:09:27 »
19,
Quote
Various ministries sponsor  an event. It lasts 1 or 2 days. Most witness there travel to get to these events. When we lead someone to Christ we get all contact information about those who confess Christ. We give all that information  to the sponsoring ministry and they do the follow up mentoring and baptism.
That at least sounds responsible.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #325 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:21:46 »
Michael, I understand he who believes yes there are several verses that state that but what does it mean to believe?

You say that to believe includes confessing Christ before man and repentance  but the bible doesn't stop with just that the bible also includes baptism as part of our faith. It teaches one that is considered a believer was baptized into Christ see Acts 19:1-5

So if the bible includes one that believes as having been baptized into Christ  what do you understand one that believes means?


Before that good question of what it means to believe, really is the question of what repentance means.

Firstly, in scriptures, the word repent means to change one’s mind. Now, concerning the coming of the Lord, God sent John ahead. And what did John the baptist preached, but that, people should repent, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” When John was imprisoned, Jesus preached the same saying “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Now, what is this repentance that John the baptist was sent out to preached? Regarding this, Paul have this to say, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” And Paul himself preached to the people, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly the repentance, that is, that was preached by John the baptist and the apostles, even Christ, is a change of mind toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. So now, having pointed that out, we can understand and see that when one is said to have come to repentance, that he turns to God and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, what does it mean to believe or have faith in Jesus Christ? I think this does not need much of an explanation as to believe is simply what the word means. It is no different as to what it means to believe in God. One must realize that it is in Christ that one believes, not in another nor in anything. It is in the person, not in anything else. Now, what is with the person is who he is, his words, and his works - his life. That then defines our faith, our belief in Him.

We are saved, not really because we believe, but because of Him, in whom we believe. For salvation is in Christ.

Now, I have been asking this question and you have not given a direct answer. So, I once again open this opportunity for you to answer it here:

When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water and is not saved until then?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #326 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:38:22 »
A BELIEVER is one who has accepted the command to be baptized where PISTIS includes the demand to COMPLY.


Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #327 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:42:37 »
Before that good question of what it means to believe, really is the question of what repentance means.
From Vine's expository and dictionary for the NT:

Repent, Repentance

A. Verbs.

1. metanoeo (G3340), lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive"; nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luk_17:3, Luk_17:4, of "repentance" from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Luke, nine times), in Acts five times, in the Apocalypse twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, Rev_2:5 (twice), Rev_2:16, Rev_2:21 (twice), RV, "she willeth not to repent" (2nd part); Rev_3:3, Rev_3:19 (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Philadelphia); elsewhere only in 2Co_12:21. See also the general Note below.
2. metamelomai (G3338), meta, as in No. 1, and melo, "to care for," is used in the passive voice with middle voice sense, signifying "to regret, to repent oneself," Mat_21:29, RV, "repented himself"; Mat_21:32, RV, "ye did (not) repent yourselves" (KJV, "ye repented not"); Mat_27:3, "repented himself"; 2Co_7:8 (twice), RV, "regret" in each case; Heb_7:21, where alone in the NT it is said (negatively) of God.

B. Adjective.

ametameletos (G278), "not repented of, unregretted" (a, negative, and a verbal adjective of A, No. 2), signifies "without change of purpose"; it is said (a) of God in regard to his "gifts and calling," Rom_11:29; (b) of man, 2Co_7:10, RV, "[repentance (metanoia, see C)]...which bringeth no regret" (KJV, "not to be repented of"); the difference between metanoia and metamelomai, illustrated here, is briefly expressed in the contrast between "repentance" and "regret."

C. Noun.

metanoia (G3341), "afterthought, change of mind, repentance," corresponds in meaning to A, No. 1, and is used of "repentance" from sin or evil, except in Heb_12:17, where the word "repentance" seems to mean, not simply a change of Isaac's mind, but such a change as would reverse the effects of his own previous state of mind. Esau's birthright-bargain could not be recalled; it involved an irretrievable loss.
As regards "repentance" from sin, (a) the requirement by God on man's part is set forth, e.g., in Mat_3:8; Luk_3:8; Act_20:21; Act_26:20; (b) the mercy of God in giving "repentance" or leading men to it is set forth, e.g., in Act_5:31; Act_11:18; Rom_2:4; 2Ti_2:25. The most authentic mss. omit the word in Mat_9:13 and Mar_2:17, as in the RV.
Note: In the OT, "repentance" with reference to sin is not so prominent as that change of mind or purpose, out of pity for those who have been affected by one's action, or in whom the results of the action have not fulfilled expectations, a "repentance" attributed both to God and to man, e.g., Gen_6:6; Exo_32:14 (that this does not imply anything contrary to God's immutability, but that the aspect of His mind is changed toward an object that has itself changed, see under RECONCILE).
In the NT the subject chiefly has reference to "repentance" from sin, and this change of mind involves both a turning from sin and a turning to God. The parable of the Prodigal Son is an outstanding illustration of this. Christ began His ministry with a call to "repentance," Mat_4:17, but the call is addressed, not as in the OT to the nation, but to the individual. In the Gospel of John, as distinct from the Synoptic Gospels, referred to above, "repentance" is not mentioned, even in connection with John the Baptist's preaching; in John's gospel and 1st epistle the effects are stressed, e.g., in the new birth, and, generally, in the active turning from sin to God by the exercise of faith (Joh_3:3; Joh_9:38; 1Jo_1:9), as in the NT in general.

Quote from: Michael
When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water and is not saved until then?
Actually one doesn't repent and believe in God and Christ; Rather one believes the Gospel and then repents.  Then if he has been taught properly he who believes and repents is  baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  He does that to receive forgiveness of his sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #328 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:49:46 »
Michael, 4WD has given a direct answer to your question. A believer who repents and is baptised shall be saved. I would argue AND confesses with his lips that Jesus is Lord. One who is not saved is an unbeliever who is condemned.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #329 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:58:09 »
The WAY that is called a SECT is very narrow and close to zero find their way there.
If you are walking down the wrong way repentance means that you CHANG DIRECTIONS. 
Those who are BAPTIZED go INTO (EIS) the narrow gate.

Repentance is a good thing and even if a person is very godly they are not IN Christ or CLOTHED with Christ, are added to the Church by Christ and have their spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom.

Having A holy spirit WASHED OF sin or having A good conscience or consciousness are able to read the Word in a one-way sense because a Christian is a DISCIPLE and a disciple is a STUDENT and a student doesn't go to "worship centers" because both ekklesia an synagogues were and are SCHOOLS OF CHRIST  THROUGH THE WORD.

Anyone who refuses to imitate the PATTERN established by Jesus both in HIS BAPTISM and his RAISED TO SPIRITUAL LIFE will never be able to walk in the steps of Jesus. The Father SANCTIFIED Jesus and SENT Him: sanctification is to have A holy spirit or A good conscience.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #330 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 15:36:13 »
Isaiah 1 denounced the sacrificial system and preached baptism which is fulfilled for Christians in Mark 15

THE SUBJECT
Rom. 10:12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek:
            for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The Old Testament debunks the superiority of the Jews but that did not stop them from A Search and Destroy Mission.

Rom. 10:13 For whosoever shall CALL UPON THE NAME of the Lord shall be saved.

It is not possible to Receive Christian Baptism without:

Acts 8:37 And Philip said,
        If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
        And he answered and said,
                I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


This calling is not Lucado-like and just look up and say "Father." I will post some CALLING on the NAME passages later for the non-readers.

Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
        and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
        and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel.
        For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing,
        and hearing by the word of God.
Rom. 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard?
        Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth,
        and their words unto the ends of the world.

The Facts of the Gospel where the Prophets define the future REST both inclusively and exclusively

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report?
        and to whom is the ARM of the Lord REVEALED?

Those who reject the nature of Jesus and are baptized without combat will receive A holy spirit without which the ARM of Jesus as His Son WILL NEVER be revealed.

Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
        and as a root out of a dry ground:
        he hath no form nor comeliness;
        and when we shall see him,
            there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Is. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men;
        a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
        and we hid as it were our faces from him;
        he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Is. 53:4  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
        yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But he was wounded [musically mocked] for our transgressions,
        he was bruised for our iniquities:
        the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
        and with his stripes we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
        we have TURNED every one to his OWN way;
        and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
      yet he opened not his mouth:
      he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
        and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
        so he openeth not his mouth.




Is. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
        and who shall declare his generation?
       for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
       for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Is. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
        and with the rich in his death;
        because he had done no violence,
        neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
        when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
        he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
        and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Is. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul,
        and shall be satisfied:
        by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
        for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
        and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
        because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
        and he was numbered with the transgressors;
        and he bare the sin of many,

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #331 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 22:41:04 »
From Vine's expository and dictionary for the NT:

Repent, Repentance

A. Verbs.

1. metanoeo (G3340), lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive"; nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luk_17:3, Luk_17:4, of "repentance" from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Luke, nine times), in Acts five times, in the Apocalypse twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, Rev_2:5 (twice), Rev_2:16, Rev_2:21 (twice), RV, "she willeth not to repent" (2nd part); Rev_3:3, Rev_3:19 (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Philadelphia); elsewhere only in 2Co_12:21. See also the general Note below.
2. metamelomai (G3338), meta, as in No. 1, and melo, "to care for," is used in the passive voice with middle voice sense, signifying "to regret, to repent oneself," Mat_21:29, RV, "repented himself"; Mat_21:32, RV, "ye did (not) repent yourselves" (KJV, "ye repented not"); Mat_27:3, "repented himself"; 2Co_7:8 (twice), RV, "regret" in each case; Heb_7:21, where alone in the NT it is said (negatively) of God.

B. Adjective.

ametameletos (G278), "not repented of, unregretted" (a, negative, and a verbal adjective of A, No. 2), signifies "without change of purpose"; it is said (a) of God in regard to his "gifts and calling," Rom_11:29; (b) of man, 2Co_7:10, RV, "[repentance (metanoia, see C)]...which bringeth no regret" (KJV, "not to be repented of"); the difference between metanoia and metamelomai, illustrated here, is briefly expressed in the contrast between "repentance" and "regret."

C. Noun.

metanoia (G3341), "afterthought, change of mind, repentance," corresponds in meaning to A, No. 1, and is used of "repentance" from sin or evil, except in Heb_12:17, where the word "repentance" seems to mean, not simply a change of Isaac's mind, but such a change as would reverse the effects of his own previous state of mind. Esau's birthright-bargain could not be recalled; it involved an irretrievable loss.
As regards "repentance" from sin, (a) the requirement by God on man's part is set forth, e.g., in Mat_3:8; Luk_3:8; Act_20:21; Act_26:20; (b) the mercy of God in giving "repentance" or leading men to it is set forth, e.g., in Act_5:31; Act_11:18; Rom_2:4; 2Ti_2:25. The most authentic mss. omit the word in Mat_9:13 and Mar_2:17, as in the RV.
Note: In the OT, "repentance" with reference to sin is not so prominent as that change of mind or purpose, out of pity for those who have been affected by one's action, or in whom the results of the action have not fulfilled expectations, a "repentance" attributed both to God and to man, e.g., Gen_6:6; Exo_32:14 (that this does not imply anything contrary to God's immutability, but that the aspect of His mind is changed toward an object that has itself changed, see under RECONCILE).
In the NT the subject chiefly has reference to "repentance" from sin, and this change of mind involves both a turning from sin and a turning to God. The parable of the Prodigal Son is an outstanding illustration of this. Christ began His ministry with a call to "repentance," Mat_4:17, but the call is addressed, not as in the OT to the nation, but to the individual. In the Gospel of John, as distinct from the Synoptic Gospels, referred to above, "repentance" is not mentioned, even in connection with John the Baptist's preaching; in John's gospel and 1st epistle the effects are stressed, e.g., in the new birth, and, generally, in the active turning from sin to God by the exercise of faith (Joh_3:3; Joh_9:38; 1Jo_1:9), as in the NT in general.


As I have discussed, in scriptures, the word repent means to change one’s mind.

It is fundamentally tied to the mind or heart. In terms of salvation, it denotes a turning away from unbelief, mistrust and rebellion against God and toward complete reliance upon God's forgiveness and favor. And that, on account of Christ.

Clearly so, repentance, is a change of mind or heart, toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why, we can understand and see that when one is said to have come to repentance, that he turns to God and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. It must then be realized that believing in Christ is an inseparable part of repentance preached by John the baptist and the apostles, and so then too must we likewise preach.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #332 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 23:41:25 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael
When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water and is not saved until then?
Actually one doesn't repent and believe in God and Christ; Rather one believes the Gospel and then repents.  Then if he has been taught properly he who believes and repents is  baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  He does that to receive forgiveness of his sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What I gather from your answer, in short, is that, for you, it is a YES. By that then, certainly, it means to you that the rite of baptism with water in the name of Christ is necessary for one to be saved.

I respect what it is you believe concerning this, though I beg to disagree. As I have shown and pointed out in my other post (reply #331), believing is an inseparable part of the repentance preached by the apostles.

Besides, we hear from Jesus himself, and He preached "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”  It was a call to repentance, a change of mind and heart concerning the gospel, from unbelief to believing the gospel, and not the other way around.

John the baptist performed a baptism of repentance in the sense that, such baptism leads them to Christ, who was yet to come, for the remission of sins. It was a call for people to change their mind and heart concerning their present ways and belief, that is, from their sins. But that was not all of what this repentance was about. Listen to what he went about preaching, "saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus".

Now, we can learn of Paul, when the Lord Jesus Christ had already ascended back to heaven, preaching the same message to the people, repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, in repentance, one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, without which, repentance remains only to be, if not preparatory as that of John's baptism of repentance, incomplete and meaningless. Now, when Christ had been revealed and had gone back to heaven, He left His disciples, instructing them to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. It was for them to baptize and that in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This baptism is different in a sense from that of John's, in that while it is a baptism of repentance, the repentance here not only involves turning away from sins and turning to God, but more importantly and significantly, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #333 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 01:22:49 »
Michael, 4WD has given a direct answer to your question. A believer who repents and is baptised shall be saved. I would argue AND confesses with his lips that Jesus is Lord. One who is not saved is an unbeliever who is condemned.

Yes he did. And clearly you agree with him except that you add the matter of the literal confessing that Jesus is Lord.

So, in reply, I would have to refer you to my response to him in Reply # 332.

In addition to that, with regards the scriptures which says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.", in a word, I would say is none other but "repentance".

In commentary, those who repents not toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ, will not be saved, but will be condemned. And those who repents toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. The matter of baptism here is not as though it is some requirement for one to be saved. Rather, it is the rite by which the repentance of one toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ is profoundly expressed. Needless to say, that this expression is not necessary to God, for God is all knowing and sees all things, even the heart of man.

Then why mention the baptism there? We must be careful not to get out of the context where Jesus said the following "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Let me post a couple of passages to refresh us of the context.

Mark 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

So we can see that Mk. 16:16 was told by Jesus to the eleven disciples, in connection to what He was commanding them to do. It was not something Jesus is commanding to someone else but His 11 disciples. And what He commands of them is, first, to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all, and second, to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

It is in this context that Jesus said to them "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." So, one could understand that the baptism is a command to the eleven to obey, and that, in connection to making disciples. Moreover, let's go further to another passage relevant to this matter.

Acts 8:34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

From the scriptures cited above, we are told, and it is clear, that what Philip preached to the eunuch is Jesus. Now,   try and ponder upon what the eunuch said next and the answer of Philip. He said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” He wanted to be baptized. Philip in response said to him "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

So, we can see that it necessitates for one to believe with all his heart in Jesus Christ before he may be baptized. Having pointed that out, and going back to Mark 16:16, it is this sense that baptism was mentioned there. A sense that points back to the matter of believing, that is, "believing with all your heart". Apparently, what this says concerning baptism, being mentioned in Mk.16:16, is that, anyone who is baptized is taken to be a truly sincere believer in Christ. Only in this sense and with this sense, that it could be said that anyone who is baptized will be saved. It actually then reinforces and points to the matter of believing, indicative of a "believing with all your heart" sense, and not some salvation rite requirement. 

But though while that could be said, it is in the believing in Jesus Christ that really matters and makes the difference. For it is in believing that one comes to be in Christ. And he is saved, but not on the account his believing nor of his being baptized, nor of anything else for that matter, but on account of Christ.

What I can perhaps say concerning baptism as being a necessary ritual requirement, and that, not really for salvation but to fulfill righteousness, is on the matter of making disciples, as was with the 11 disciples concerning their ministry. Remember, even Jesus was baptized.   

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #334 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 11:40:14 »
Michael, according to scripture when would you say Paul’s sins were forgiven him? And is forgiveness of sin important to one’s salvation?

As to the story of the Eunoch, of course he needed to believe first. No one is contending against that. Belief is always the alpha event, immediately followed by baptism such that all of our faith responses are one continuous motion as they were in the first century, not herky jerky segmented events separated by months.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 11:56:05 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #335 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 12:29:32 »
Michael, according to scripture when would you say Paul’s sins were forgiven him? And is forgiveness of sin important to one’s salvation?

As to the story of the Eunoch, of course he needed to believe first. No one is contending against that. Belief is always the alpha event, immediately followed by baptism such that all of our faith responses are one continuous motion, not herky jerky segmented events separated by months.


When he repented unto faith in Christ and asked for forgiveness. When exactly was that? It could be anytime from having spoken with Jesus until he was baptized. But that is immaterial to the fact that he was forgiven upon repentance unto faith in Christ and asked for forgiveness.

You asked "And is forgiveness of sin important to one’s salvation?" One is not saved if his sins were not forgiven. It is the first thing that God bestows upon the repentant sinner and unbeliever.

Regarding the Eunuch account, you are right in realizing that he needed to believe with all his heart in Jesus Christ. Now, when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, do you think Philip did not tell him to believe? I believe he did, else everything would make no sense. Now, have you forgotten what Philip told him with regards his asking to be baptized when they come to some water? Philip said "If you believe with all your heart, you may". Ponder upon
 "you may". What does that tell you?

Now, let's take a situation, if they had not come to some water, in all probability he would not have been baptized at that time. Was he saved by believing at that time or is his salvation wait until he is baptized?
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 23:54:18 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #336 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 12:49:02 »
Now, when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, do you think Philip did not tell him to believe?
No, Philip didn't tell the eunuch to believe, rather he taught him from the Scriptures, giving him the reason and basis for believing.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #337 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 13:00:26 »
I agree 4WD. Believing is a mental ascent reaction to truth. I doubt Phillip told him to be baptized, but from the teaching Phillip did, it was obvious. I would imagine Phillip relayed Peter’s sermon at Pentecost and other events as well as the OT scriptures that Phillip pointed to as referring to Jesus the Messiah.

Phillip’s answer, “if you believe with all your heart, you may” to the Eunoch’s question about being baptized is exactly in line with other scriptures.  Phillip simply reiterated the pre-requisite of belief that is written all over the NT. Phillip would have been aghast if the Eunoch had said, “I don’t believe, but there is water, can I be baptized.”



« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 13:08:43 by Jaime »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #338 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 14:13:38 »
Michael do you reckon Paul’s sins were forgiven or remitted by God when Paul did what Ananias said he needed to do? “Why do you tarry arise and be baptized washing away your sins calling upon the Lord.”

And you are right saying no one can be saved without forgiveness of sins, not even Paul. OR ANANIAS WAS COMPLETELY WRONG AND THE HOLY SPIRIT CAPTURED THIS STORY TO CONFUSE US.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 16:05:13 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #339 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 14:53:16 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 12:29:32
Now, when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, do you think Philip did not tell him to believe?
No, Philip didn't tell the eunuch to believe, rather he taught him from the Scriptures, giving him the reason and basis for believing.

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

That's what, or rather, that's who Philip preached.

Acts 8:37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

That's the bottom line of what Philip preached about Jesus to the eunuch.

And as I have said, if after preaching Jesus to the eunuch, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that Philip did not tell him to believe that which he preached about Jesus to him, his preaching would make no sense.

4WD, that Philip taught the eunuch from the Scriptures, giving him the reason and basis for believing is really what you say and not what scriptures say. Though I'd say that it is possible that Philip could have done that.

« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 15:12:53 by Michael2012 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #340 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 15:10:34 »
If the Eunoch did not believe with his whole heart Phillip would have said “you may not.” Because if he didn’t believe with his whole heart, he would have just gotten wet for no reason in a water hole, and NO baptism, as we understand baptism and its purposes would have occurred. Baptism in Christ’s name always involves believers. Unbelievers can only look forward to condemnation.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 15:27:28 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #341 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 17:43:26 »
4WD, that Philip taught the eunuch from the Scriptures, giving him the reason and basis for believing is really what you say and not what scriptures say. Though I'd say that it is possible that Philip could have done that.
Once again you demonstrate that you really have no clue what it means to believe and why anyone believes.  One doesn't believe because of any command to do so.  One is convinced by the information and data presented concerning what the truth is.  It is through being convinced of the truth of what is being taught that one believes.  One comes to believe the gospel in exactly the same way that one comes to believe anything  --  it is not by a command to do so; it is by being convinced of the truth of it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #342 on: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 09:18:25 »
I agree 4WD. Jaime I doubt Phillip told him to be baptized, but from the teaching Phillip did, it was obvious. I would imagine Phillip relayed Peter’s sermon at Pentecost and other events as well as the OT scriptures that Phillip pointed to as referring to Jesus the Messiah.

Phillip’s answer, “if you believe with all your heart, you may” to the Eunoch’s question about being baptized is exactly in line with other scriptures.  Phillip simply reiterated the pre-requisite of belief that is written all over the NT. Phillip would have been aghast if the Eunoch had said, “I don’t believe, but there is water, can I be baptized.”

Jaime, "Believing is a mental ascent reaction to truth" I'd say is lacking, for believing, more than that, comes from the heart and involves the spirit or is spiritual. We don't need to get far to see that, for this is understood right here in what Philip said, "if you believe with all your heart, you may".

We can all speculate as to what Philip may have taught the eunuch. But before we do, if at all we should, we must study and analyze hard enough, for when speculations starts to set foot, the difficulty seems to go away, but the truth is it only makes it more difficult than it already is.

Going to the subject matter, what we read from the passage is that the eunuch was the one who asked, saying "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" The eunuch apparently has some consideration in mind which he thinks hinders his being baptized. That is where his question regarding being baptized was coming from. Think about that for a while and perhaps take some time to consider that. 


Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #343 on: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 10:21:59 »
I would assume the Eunoch heard Phillip teaching about what had happened to the 3000 at Pentecost and asked the question, “then what hinders me from being baptized, we have water here.” He likely heard phillip talking about repentance and being baptized. Phillip didn’t mention repentance in the text recalling the story, but why would we assume the Eunoch would not have repented as plenty of other scripture teaches. It doesn’t say he confessed Christ as his savior either, but I see no reason to doubt that he did. Just as I see no reason to doubt that the 3000 also did. Another reason to take scripture cumultively.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #344 on: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 10:31:00 »
Jaime,
Philip would have been there when Peter said "Repent and be baptized".and the eunuch wouldn't have gotten baptized without some discussion about it.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 10:35:14 by e.r.m. »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #345 on: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 10:45:16 »
From the Hardline King James Version about the Ethiopian Eunuch:

Acts 8

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart that baptism is the point in which sins are remitted, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that baptism is the absolute point of salvation.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #346 on: Mon Aug 06, 2018 - 10:59:58 »
Once again you demonstrate that you really have no clue what it means to believe and why anyone believes.  One doesn't believe because of any command to do so.  One is convinced by the information and data presented concerning what the truth is.  It is through being convinced of the truth of what is being taught that one believes.  One comes to believe the gospel in exactly the same way that one comes to believe anything  --  it is not by a command to do so; it is by being convinced of the truth of it.

And you demonstrate the wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and ways of man, which sits right at this statement "One comes to believe the gospel in exactly the same way that one comes to believe anything".

And there is nothing spiritual in what you say there about being convinced. It is all of you and by you.

If at all you were, who do you say convicted you of sin?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #347 on: Tue Aug 07, 2018 - 07:01:00 »
And you demonstrate the wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and ways of man, which sits right at this statement "One comes to believe the gospel in exactly the same way that one comes to believe anything".
Thank you Michael.  You have made my point.  You haven't a clue of why or how you believe.  And it goes beyond that.  Since you don't know why and how you believe, it explains a lot about what you believe.
Quote from: Michael
And there is nothing spiritual in what you say there about being convinced. It is all of you and by you.
No it is not all of me and by me.  It is all about the revelation from God.  It is almost all about the word of God; the written word of God; His special revelation given us through the work of the Holy Spirit. His general revelation that comes to us through His creation, His creative works, supports that special revelation and builds upon it.
Quote from: Michael
If at all you were, who do you say convicted you of sin?
That is an unintelligible sentence.  "If at all you were..." ? ? ? ?  I think I know what you wanted to ask, but I will hold back on an answer until I get a complete sentence that make some modicum of sense.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #348 on: Tue Aug 07, 2018 - 10:41:52 »
I would assume the Eunoch heard Phillip teaching about what had happened to the 3000 at Pentecost and asked the question, “then what hinders me from being baptized, we have water here.” He likely heard phillip talking about repentance and being baptized. Phillip didn’t mention repentance in the text recalling the story, but why would we assume the Eunoch would not have repented as plenty of other scripture teaches. It doesn’t say he confessed Christ as his savior either, but I see no reason to doubt that he did. Just as I see no reason to doubt that the 3000 also did. Another reason to take scripture cumultively.

No need really to assume.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

That's what scriptures says Philip preached to the eunuch.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #349 on: Tue Aug 07, 2018 - 10:47:13 »
Same thing Peter preached to the 3000.

 

     
anything