Author Topic: Romans 3:25 (Read 10813 times)

Michael2012 · « **Reply #385 on:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 14:35:51 »

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Aug 09, 2018 - 12:31:18

Red, if man refuses to repent is it because God didn’t GRANT it? When the Bible says repent, does man have an out if he doesn’t because God didn’t grant it?

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/1-2-timothy-titus-philemon-hebrews-james-1-2-peter/2-tim-225-can-we-repent-or-does-god-cause-us-to-repent/

With due respect to RB and Jaime, I'd just like to comment on this.

Firstly, we should not lose sight that when we speak here of repentance, that is in connection to salvation, that it refers to a change of mind, and is not of a choice. In terms of salvation then, repentance is unto God and faith in Christ. The choice really does not lie in the repentance, but on the object of repentance.

The repenting of one is not God doing it for them. Repentance, as I pointed out in my other post, is fundamentally tied to the mind or heart. It therefore involves an inner conviction. In connection to the unbeliever's change of mind or repentance unto God and faith in Christ, he obviously was convicted in his heart concerning God and Christ. That sir is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of the person. This work happens in the heart of the man. It is something spiritual.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #385 on:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 14:35:51 »

Jaime · « **Reply #386 on:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 14:41:40 »

Godly sorrow is Felt by the sinner. Acceptance of His conviction, if you will. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, and repentance leads to salvation.
(2 Corinthians 7:10). The 3000 were convicted unto Godly sorrow. Their Godly sorrow leads to THEIR repentance. Their desire or change of mind to change directions and walk towards God. NOT an irresistable tractor beam. Free will is NOT overridden. God doesn’t want or need robots. He desires free will agents choosing to love him, as any parent desires. If not ALL WOULD BE SAVED, and we know that is not the case. Some resistance is possible or all would succumb to God “pulling the puppet strings”. If God’s conviction is irresistable, then All will come to Godly sorrow and ultimately repentance. We as parents do not want our kids hypnotized into loving and obeying us. We want their love, devotion and obedience by choice or free will and so does God.

e.r.m. · « **Reply #387 on:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 16:59:46 »

faroukfarouk,
Faith repentance and baptism are all intertwined. They're combined in any which way in Scripture. Sometimes it mentions faith, and you know that at least repentance is not excluded. Sometimes it mentions repentance and you know that it includes Faith. Sometimes it mentions baptism as a part of faith. And sometimes it mentions baptism and you know that faith is a part of it.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #387 on:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 16:59:46 »

Michael2012 · « **Reply #388 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 13:16:22 »

Quote from: Jaime on Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 14:41:40

Godly sorrow is Felt by the sinner. Acceptance of His conviction, if you will. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, and repentance leads to salvation.
(2 Corinthians 7:10). The 3000 were convicted unto Godly sorrow. Their Godly sorrow leads to THEIR repentance. Their desire or change of mind to change directions and walk towards God. NOT an irresistable tractor beam. Free will is NOT overridden. God doesn’t want or need robots. He desires free will agents choosing to love him, as any parent desires. If not ALL WOULD BE SAVED, and we know that is not the case. Some resistance is possible or all would succumb to God “pulling the puppet strings”. If God’s conviction is irresistable, then All will come to Godly sorrow and ultimately repentance. We as parents do not want our kids hypnotized into loving and obeying us. We want their love, devotion and obedience by choice or free will and so does God.

Nobody is saying anything about "irresistible tractor", "robots" or "pulling the puppet strings", except you here.

You said "If God’s conviction is irresistable...".

As I said:

Quote

The repenting of one is not God doing it for them. Repentance, as I pointed out in my other post, is fundamentally tied to the mind or heart. It therefore involves an inner conviction. In connection to the unbeliever's change of mind or repentance unto God and faith in Christ, he obviously was convicted in his heart concerning God and Christ. That sir is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of the person. This work happens in the heart of the man. It is something spiritual.

Do you not believe that it is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth, that convicts? The Holy Spirit was sent to the world. He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Do you not believe that?

And one must not forget, that while the HS will convict the world, not all will repent towards God and faith in Christ.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #388 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 13:16:22 »

Jaime · « **Reply #389 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 13:45:19 »

Yes the Holy spirit convicts and no, not all will heed the conviction and repent.

As to the the robot or puppet statement, some here contend that God saves who he wills and his conviction is irresistable. I say no it is not irresistable. Man’s free will is always in play. God wants a free will decision to love and obey him, just as we do from our kids as parents. If this wasn’t the case Adam and Eve would have never fallen for the schemes of the Devil if God’s drawing was irresistable. Man most definitely has a role in his eternal destiny. God and only God is responsible for and offers the priceless free gift but not all will accept it. Every invitation song ever written or sung was about this. If this is not the case, evangelism would be moot and senseless.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #389 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 13:45:19 »

e.r.m. · « **Reply #390 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 15:53:06 »

Agreed.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #390 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 15:53:06 »

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #391 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:02:28 »

Jesus knew that most of the earth's population was OF the World: While He died for all sin He didn't pray for the WORLD. He said that those who care speak HIS WORD (Logos) would be marked and hated as not being OF the World as He was not OF the World.

His WAY was called a SECT: It is a road or pattern so narrow that almost no one can find it.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away,
the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

g3875. parakletos, par-ak´-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler: — advocate, comforter.

In John 14 Jesus said I WILL COME TO YOU: he would be in Holy Spirit State.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

g3875. parakletos, par-ak´-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler: — advocate, comforter.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The World is the Kosmos, the Ecumenical or the kingdom of the Devil. Jesus does not CAUSE the world to be evil but He JUDGES it and marks it so true disciples will not "fellowship" even as Paul separated the disciples.

John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the PRINCE of this world is judged.

When the Holy Spirit appeared to Paul it was the Spirit OF Jesus.

Watch for the Angels of Light in the Morning: they WILL silence the WORDS of Jesus.

yogi bear · « **Reply #392 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:36:57 »

Michael, Lets think on this a little. You are saying that to you repentance is like convicted in the heart to believe the gospel Christ.

I ask you to go to Acts 2 where the kingdom that was to come came and see how the Spirit through Peter deals with what you are trying to pass off as repentance.

When we read this chapter we see Peter preaching Jesus dbr (the gospel of Christ) to the crowd. They were pricked to the heart (as you say) by what was preached. What happened next was they asked Peter what must we do and he told them to REPENT and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and they shall receive the promised spirit.

Looks like Peter disagrees with you that the pricked in the heart was the same as you are trying to say. They believed but yet had to turn to living the belief out repentance is living out the belief. It is not just a heart felt thing but a walk with Christ. It shows in the way you live your life. It is a lot more to it than you give it credit.

Peter seen that they believed but yet told them to repent so the heart felt conviction was not repentance they yet had to repent. That is the walk in the new way we were shown. Turn from our worldly walk to walking in the spirit with Christ.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #393 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:43:08 »

That's true and of those people NOT OF TRUTH a hard sell will have no effect:

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If you have to pass judgment on the Words revealed by the SPIRIT there is no way to convince people.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #393 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:43:08 »

Jaime · « **Reply #394 on:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:46:11 »

What the 3000 experienced was Godly sorrow, and Godly sorrow leads to repentance which they did and were baptized. Repentance is a change of mind and direction of your walk. And Godly sorrow for what they were convicted of is not repentance. Godly sorrow LEADS to repentance.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #395 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 01:25:31 »

Quote from: e.r.m. on Thu Aug 09, 2018 - 17:57:40

Jaime,In what sense do you think the circumcised believers meant
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” ?

Bear in mind they did accept this.

Acts 11: ["17a & 17b MINE]

8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’

12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17a If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, 17b who was I that I could withstand God?”

Peter particularly stressed God's initiative in Acts 11:8, 9, 12, 15-17a, as well as his own inability to withstand God in Acts 11: 17b).

Acts 11:14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.

Cornelius and "all" his "household" were not "saved" from God's wrath until they heard and believed the gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter proclaimed to them (v. 14).

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Clearly the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what he referred to in verse 16.

Peter identified "believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" as the only necessary prerequisite to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit (v. 17a).

Now, going back to v.2-3, it shows here that those of the circumcision contended with him, concerning his eating with the Gentiles. In verses 4-18, Peter explains. And by appealing to what God had done (v. 17a), he justified his eating with Gentiles in Caesarea.

The subject verse 18, shows that Peter's explanation was satisfactory to his critics. His Jewish brethren agreed that God was saving Gentiles, by granting them repentance. And that, for that matter, is of repentance to life.

This is the point in scriptures where the truth of the matter that salvation is not only for the Jews, but for the Gentiles as well. And that, in the same way as for the Jews, by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

What can be seen in the case of Cornelius and his household, is that, they believed the words they heard from Peter about Jesus, that even before confessing that with their mouth and even before they were baptized, they were saved. And that is clearly evidenced by the Lord Jesus Christ's baptizing them with the Holy Spirit. They were saved, and were baptized with the Holy Spirit because they repented unto believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #396 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 01:29:47 »

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Aug 09, 2018 - 18:35:37

They were granted the “opportunity” for repentance as a group. An opportunity they did not previously have as Gentiles. Indiviual repentance was something they had to do of their individual free will, in my opinion as well as the author of the link I posted in reply #364.

It's not "opportunity" that was granted to the Gentiles. It is repentance to life.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life”

Michael2012 · « **Reply #397 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 02:32:14 »

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Aug 09, 2018 - 19:24:59

Do you accept that all of scripture is to be taken cumulativey? As in if one verse says believe and one says repent then the BiBle is saying BOTH are involved? Or do you still point to the believe and be saved verses as all THE salvation verses? I contend it ALL
applies. If you do too, we are in agreement.

I accept all of scriptures.

With regards the matter of repentance, faith, and baptism, I'd say they must be taken, not really cumulatively, but in their respective meaning, significance, and how they are related to each other.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #398 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 03:23:04 »

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 13:53:55

Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 12:54:28
Perhaps you don't get what is the repentance preached by John the baptist and the apostles.

Please see my post in reply # 378.

John the baptist and the apostles went out preaching to unbelievers, that they should repent towards God and faith in Christ. The repentance obviously is that of a change of mind or heart, toward God and faith in Lord Jesus Christ by the unbeliever.

This repentance is obviously not for the believer, but for the unbeliever.
Again, the complete irrationality of Michael's thought process. There is so little logic in all of it that it is really sad; more than sad; rather pathetic. If someone doesn't believe in God, in Jesus, and in the gospel, then what is there that he is to turn from and turn to?

It seems that you only want to hear yourself. Please try to hear what I say in my post that you quoted and perhaps you will understand what I'm saying.

You are apparently talking of repentance from sinful acts, when I have been telling you what repentance is that which John the baptist and the apostles preached in their ministry to the unbelieving world.

You argue "If someone doesn't believe in God, in Jesus, and in the gospel, then what is there that he is to turn from and turn to?"

If I were to put that in other words, it would be something like:

What is there that an unbeliever is to turn from and turn to?

OR

What is there that an unbeliever is to repent from and to?

If you don't know the answer to that, then I'd say that is what really is pathetic.

You see, an unbeliever is one who does not believe in God, or one who does not believe in the true God. The unbeliever is called upon to repent from this and believe in the true God and in Him whom He sent, Jesu Christ.

Now, when does one repent towards God and faith in Christ? When convicted that he is in the wrong and so is sinful, and convicted that he doesn't have the truth and is not in the truth, turning away from his unbelief and turning to faith in God.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #399 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 03:47:04 »

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 13:45:19

Yes the Holy spirit convicts and no, not all will heed the conviction and repent.

As to the the robot or puppet statement, some here contend that God saves who he wills and his conviction is irresistable. I say no it is not irresistable. Man’s free will is always in play. God wants a free will decision to love and obey him, just as we do from our kids as parents. If this wasn’t the case Adam and Eve would have never fallen for the schemes of the Devil if God’s drawing was irresistable. Man most definitely has a role in his eternal destiny. God and only God is responsible for and offers the priceless free gift but not all will accept it. Every invitation song ever written or sung was about this. If this is not the case, evangelism would be moot and senseless.

I'm glad we both believe that it is the Holy spirit that convicts. And that however, not all will repent towards God and faith in Christ.

As with regards your statement "Man most definitely has a role in his eternal destiny.", I'd say that the destiny of man had been decided as far back in the beginning, by the will of Adam, when he sinned in the garden of Eden as written in Genesis. But all thanks and praise be to God for His salvation, else all man has condemnation and hell as his eternal destiny. Now, God's salvation is Christ. The only way then to have the salvation of God is for one to be in Christ. As all, are in Adam condemned, so also, all, are in Christ saved.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #400 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 03:58:17 »

Quote from: yogi bear on Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 17:36:57

Michael, Lets think on this a little. You are saying that to you repentance is like convicted in the heart to believe the gospel Christ.

I ask you to go to Acts 2 where the kingdom that was to come came and see how the Spirit through Peter deals with what you are trying to pass off as repentance.

When we read this chapter we see Peter preaching Jesus dbr (the gospel of Christ) to the crowd. They were pricked to the heart (as you say) by what was preached. What happened next was they asked Peter what must we do and he told them to REPENT and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and they shall receive the promised spirit.

Looks like Peter disagrees with you that the pricked in the heart was the same as you are trying to say. They believed but yet had to turn to living the belief out repentance is living out the belief. It is not just a heart felt thing but a walk with Christ. It shows in the way you live your life. It is a lot more to it than you give it credit.

Peter seen that they believed but yet told them to repent so the heart felt conviction was not repentance they yet had to repent. That is the walk in the new way we were shown. Turn from our worldly walk to walking in the spirit with Christ.

You said "You are saying that to you repentance is like convicted in the heart to believe the gospel Christ."

Did I say that? No, that's not what I'm saying. Please refer me to the post where you thought I said that.

Nonetheless, conviction is different from repentance.

Jaime · « **Reply #401 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 07:30:37 »

Michael, don’t forget to be IN Christ, we are baptized into Christ. We clothe ourselves WITH him at baptism. That is If you believe ALL of scripture, and you said you do.

Also, do you believe man has freewill in accepting the gospel? I know someone that was drawn by God for years, but stubbornly refuses to accept the gospel because he doesn’t want to repent of what he is doing. God offers and man accepts or refuses ultimately. Man’s free will is NOT thwarted. Though God’s Spirit does draw us.

If God attached an irresistable tether to us, there would be no reason whatsoever for the Great Commission and most of our evangelism efforts.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #402 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 08:23:28 »

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 07:30:37

Michael, don’t forget to be IN Christ, we are baptized into Christ. We clothe ourselves WITH him at baptism. That is If you believe ALL of scripture, and you said you do.

Also, do you believe man has freewill in accepting the gospel? I know someone that was drawn by God for years, but stubbornly refuses to accept the gospel because he doesn’t want to repent of what he is doing. God offers and man accepts or refuses ultimately. Man’s free will is NOT thwarted. Though God’s Spirit does draw us.

If God attached an irresistable tether to us, there would be no reason whatsoever for the Great Commission and most of our evangelism efforts.

Jaime, I want you to consider this:

1 Corinthians 10:1-3
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,

Can you explain to me what "all were BAPTIZED INTO Moses" means?

Romans 6: 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What do you say what it means by "baptized into Christ" in the verses cited?

You said "do you believe man has freewill in accepting the gospel?"

My answer is YES.

Jaime · « **Reply #403 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:30:02 »

I always took the being baptized into Moses as being saved from death by Pharoah’s hand through the water of the Red Sea.

From the verses you quoted, being baptized into Christ is joining in his death burial and resurrection through baptism. We go down into the water as our old man, and we raise up out of the water as a new creation to walk in newness of life.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #404 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:59:54 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 08:23:28

Jaime, I want you to consider this:

1 Corinthians 10:1-3
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,

Can you explain to me what "all were BAPTIZED INTO Moses" means?

Romans 6: 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What do you say what it means by "baptized into Christ" in the verses cited?

You said "do you believe man has freewill in accepting the gospel?"

My answer is YES.

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:30:02

I always took the being baptized into Moses as being saved from death by Pharoah’s hand through the water of the Red Sea.

From the verses you quoted, being baptized into Christ is joining in his death burial and resurrection through baptism. We go down into the water as our old man, and we raise up out of the water as a new creation to walk in newness of life.

The question really is what the phrase "baptized into" means and what "baptized" there means. So, can you tell us?

Jaime · « **Reply #405 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 12:10:04 »

Saved through the water of the Red Sea as I said. It was a resurrection of sorts from sure death at Pharoah’s hand. What else could it mean? Your turn.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #406 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 19:21:28 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:59:54

The question really is what the phrase "baptized into" means and what "baptized" there means. So, can you tell us?

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 12:10:04

Saved through the water of the Red Sea as I said. It was a resurrection of sorts from sure death at Pharoah’s hand. What else could it mean? Your turn.

Apparently you have not really addressed the question. Please do. Thanks.

Jaime · « **Reply #407 on:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 19:50:09 »

No thanks, I answered the question quite directly. Pretty much any commentary will tell you the same thing.

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Author Topic: Romans 3:25 (Read 10813 times)

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