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Rom 3: 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

God is righteous- who does He need to demonstrate it to? He doesn't need to demonstrate it to anybody. He is God and doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. However, God loves His creation and it's important to Him that we know Him. We cannot love anyone unless we know them. We cannot trust someone unless we know their character. We cannot have faith in anyone unless we know them and love them. We are saved by faith therefore God wanted to prove His righteousness to us so we could have complete faith in Jesus.

The only way to be righteous is to obey all of God's laws all the time. Therefore, for God to be righteous it means that He obeys His own laws. How does passing over the sins previously committed demonstrate His righteousness?

Remember the flood,  Sodom, the Canaanites all those occasions in the old testament where it says God killed people who were unrighteous. He did not send them to hell for their sins. Could God be righteous if He judged each person by a different standard?

Prov 11:1 Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight. NKJV

Is God only worried about the scales of commerce and not the scales of Justice? No. Justice demands equal punishment for equal crime. Therefore, God is saying that everyone from the beginning  of time will be judged by one law.  That is: have you accepted the covering for sin that God provided.

We can have complete faith in Jesus alone because God will only punish eternally those who do not accept His salvation.

THIS IS A PATTERN FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT SPEAK THE WORD: THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST SAYS THAT THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom. 3:2 Much every way:
        chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3051. logion, log´-ee-on; neuter of 3052; an utterance (of God): — oracle. The Word, Dabar or Greek Logos is the "THAT CONCERNING ME" Says Jesus who defines EXCLUSIVELY the Speaking Roles in the Great Commission.  Peter understood that:

         1Pet. 4:11 If ANY man SPEAK, 
               let him speak as the oracles of God;
        if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
        that GOD
        in all things may be glorified
        through Jesus Christ,
        to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe?
        shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom. 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;
        as it is written, That thou mightest be JUSTIFYIED in THY SAYINGS
        and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom. 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God,
        what shall we say?
        Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

THERE IS PROBABLY NO GREATER INSULT THAN TO COLLECT PAYING AUDIENCE TO SPEAK YOUR OWN WORDS AND CLAIM TO SPEAK THE ORACLES OF GOD.

Rom. 3:6 God forbid:
        for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom. 3:7 For if the TRUTH of God hath more abounded
        through my lie unto his glory;
        why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom. 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported,
        and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil,
        that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they?
        No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,
        that they are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 As it is written,
        There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom. 3:11 There is none that UNDERSTANDETH,
        there is none that SEEKETH after God.

    Is. 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib:
             but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
    Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a SEED of evildoers,
            children that are corrupters:
            they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked [blasphemaverunt]
            The Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
    Isaiah 1:8  And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard,
            as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
    Isaiah 1: 9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant,
            we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    Is. 1:10 Hear the WORD of the LORD, ye RULERS of Sodom;
            give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

        Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
        which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

    The Spirit OF Christ contradicts. God said nothing about their mental attutude:

    Is. 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD:
            I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts;
            and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

THE ASSEMBLY OR SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST IS BUILT UPON OR EDUCATED BY THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES.  LET ME KNOW WHETHER YOUR RULERS HAVE DUCT TAPED THE MOUTH OF JESUS.

    Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their RULERS,
            because they knew him not,
            nor yet the voices of the prophets
            which are READ every sabbath day,
            they have fulfilled them in condemning him
    Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
            them that PREACH him,
            being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
            and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath [REST] day,
            and stood up for to READ.
    Acts 13:15 And after the READING of the law and the prophets
            the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying,
            Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation [comfort]
            for the people, say on.

You say a lot but it doesn't pertain to the post. It sounds like you are saying there is no light in me. That would indicate that you think I am not saved?

If you quote one verse from Romans 3 then the rest of Romans needs to be discussed. I was quoting Scripture which I though you might recognize:

Is. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you,
       Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
       and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
       should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony:
       if they SPEAK not according to this WORD,
       it is because there is no light in them.

Much of the time Paul is not discussing denominational DOGMA but is a commentary on the prophets and DEBUNKING the Jews whose RULERS were ignorant because they REJECT the Pattern established for the Church in the Wilderness and never changed.

You start your reply to my first post with “this is a pattern for those who do not speak the word of God: The Spirit of Christ says there is no light in them” and it is in all caps which is equivalent to yelling.

That statement has nothing to do with the topic

Then you reply if one scripture from Romans is cited then the topic is all of Romans. By that logic anything posted has no topic that has to be adhered to when replying to a post.

19,

That is: have you accepted the covering for sin that God provided.

We can have complete faith in Jesus alone because God will only punish eternally those who do not accept His salvation.

I'm sorry, where in the New Testament does it say that "accepting" the covering for sin and "accepting" His salvation are how one comes into salvation?

19,

Your right. It does not explicitly say that one accepts salvation.

An explicit statement in the Bible is the burden of proof to authenticate a teaching.

A gift is only good to a person if they accept it. God says to accept the gift is to reply to His RSVP.

Where does God say to accept the gift? Receiving as you said earlier only refers to the event where something is given, such as when person receives a delivery from Amazon at his front door. He doesn't even have to be there when it happens. It discusses none of the precursors. You sound very steeped in evangelical rhetoric.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

And yet the author of Romans 10 Paul, on the road to Damascus Acts 22:8-10, had done all these things. He confessed the Lord Jesus, and by the end of that encounter he certainly believed it too. And yet 3 days later it was revealed by Ananias, that his sins had not yet been washed away Acts 22:16. Although believing in Jesus and confessing him as Lord is certainly involved, there's no way Paul could have been telling his audience that this is all there is to getting saved, since it did not even completely cover his own salvation. And neither in this passage, nor in any other did Paul ever speak of simply "accepting" this gift "God, I accept your gift, thank you", as is popularly described today. This method of "accepting" is never brought up in any of the scriptures, either explicitly, or implicitly. It's not right that this should have to be pointed out. Nobody should have ever started teaching this "accepting" method of salvation without the necessary scriptural confirmation of either the instruction or example that it had been done.

Yes Paul called Jesus Lord but didn't get the Spirit until later. Paul was a Jew and had rejected Jesus.  Not only had He rejected Jesus but he had committed monstrous acts against the church. Paul was caught off guard and confessed Jesus Lord from fear.  He had to become ready to accept God's grace.

Paul didn't call Jesus Lord when confronted on the road to Damascus.  He recognized that the one confronting him was Lord  --  Lord in the sense of YHWH of the Old Covenant, the Covenant he knew and recognized.  His question was really, "What do you mean 'persecuting' you?"  He thought he was doing the Lord's work in his persecution.  It was Jesus who identified Himself as Lord.  It was only after Jesus identified Himself that Paul accepted who Jesus really was.  Clearly in that instant and during the next three days Paul came to the understanding of just who Jesus really was and believed in Him.  But still it was only after that that his sins were forgiven [washed away in baptism] and thereby saved.

In other words you are saying that one is not saved until being baptized. In several places it does say “be baptized” for forgivness of sins.

I am not saying specifically that one is not saved until being baptized.   I am saying that one is not saved until their sins are forgiven.  And the Bible says that the purpose of baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.  It also brings the gift of the Holy Spirit.  I think it is foolish to hope that God doesn't really expect the sinner to go all the way to being baptized.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: NKJV

Can one really believe in Christ Jesus and then reject what he has said about baptism?  Personally, I do not think so.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God NKJV
Even that faith is a gift. If faith were tied to a work it ceases to be a gift. We get that faith when we accept the fact (believe) that Jesus died to pay for our sins and was resurrected for our justification (Believe in Jesus).

Most credible scholars will admit that the gift is not faith; rather the gift is being saved by grace through faith.

Disobedience causes a loss of fellowship not a loss of opportunity to be saved.

For one who has heard the gospel, believed, repented, and has been baptized, even disobedience does not cause a loss of fellowship.  The saint does not pop into and out of fellowship with each sin/repentance incident.

19,

Yes Paul called Jesus Lord but didn't get the Spirit until later. Paul was a Jew and had rejected Jesus.  Not only had He rejected Jesus but he had committed monstrous acts against the church. Paul was caught off guard and confessed Jesus Lord from fear.  He had to become ready to accept God's grace.

Acts 26:9 "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.  11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. NKJV

Paul became a monster in order to eradicate the church. In the above he admits to torturing believers so they would blaspheme. He had to come to terms with his past actions against the church and Jesus. I have witnessed to people who were convinced that God could not forgive them because their sins were, to them, unforgivable .  I believe Paul had to be able to forgive himself before he could accept forgiveness from God.

Thank you for your response. Do you not think the three days he spent not eating or drinking anything was enough time? And that he was only willing to accept God's grace when Ananias showed up? I think it was plenty of time for him to come to the realization of everything that had just happened on the road to Damascus, yet his sins were still not washed away by the time Ananias showed up.

What does it mean to "believe"?  As I asked previously, can one believe in God, Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet reject anything they say?  I don't think so.  Can you receive Him or accept Him and not receive and accept what He says? Again, I don't think so.

What does it mean to "believe"?  As I asked previously, can one believe in God, Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet reject anything they say?  I don't think so.  Can you receive Him or accept Him and not receive and accept what He says? Again, I don't think so.

We are saved by believing the gospel. To put it another way we are saved by believing in Jesus. If we believe the gospel we put our faith in Jesus for salvation. We are not saved by believing everything in the bible which we should. If we had to have perfect doctrine no one would ever be saved. You read that we must be baptized to receive forgiveness. I do get from the scriptures that we have to be baptized for remission. Yes we should believe all that is in the bible. And yes we should believe all that Jesus said.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

Now let's look at what Paul told a gentile.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. NKJV

Believe on the Lord Jesus and they will be saved. Yes they then were baptized into obedience . But for salvation, forgiveness and justification, they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Another gentile church:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.  NKJV

Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.

The Jews knew that when one was baptized in the name of someone they were being baptized to realize all that the name implies. All the unbelieving Jews still thought that the messiah was going to set up an earthly kingdom and “show” them how to be righteous. In other words they would be earthly rulers still working for their righteousness. Through his sermon Peter told these Jews that Jesus died and was now in heaven. He told them that Jesus was King, Lord  and the Messiah. The only thing that he left out was the most important for mankind. Through Jesus they would have their sins forgiven. He was not telling them they had to be baptized to get sins removed. He was telling them that Jesus' mission and purpose was for the forgiveness of sins for all mankind. When they became a follower of Christ it meant that their sins would be forgiven. Baptism in His name only showed the world that they were followers of Christ. Being a follower of Christ means your sins are forgiven with or without baptism.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, NKJV

In Peter's second sermon it was not mentioned that they had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to get the Spirit. When Cornelius and his household were saved it had nothing to do with their baptism which came later.

By your way of thinking we should not witness to someone who is dying because we can't get them saved until they get baptized. I know people who believe the way you do and they will not do prison ministry because you can't baptize them immediately. There are probably some of your belief that will still witness in such situations so I do not want to say all like believers will not witness in such situations. But I can see that it would deter some from such endeavors.

We are saved by believing the gospel. To put it another way we are saved by believing in Jesus. If we believe the gospel we put our faith in Jesus for salvation. We are not saved by believing everything in the bible which we should. If we had to have perfect doctrine no one would ever be saved. You read that we must be baptized to receive forgiveness. I do get from the scriptures that we have to be baptized for remission. Yes we should believe all that is in the bible. And yes we should believe all that Jesus said.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

Now let's look at what Paul told a gentile.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. NKJV

Believe on the Lord Jesus and they will be saved. Yes they then were baptized into obedience . But for salvation, forgiveness and justification, they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Another gentile church:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.  NKJV

Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.

The Jews knew that when one was baptized in the name of someone they were being baptized to realize all that the name implies. All the unbelieving Jews still thought that the messiah was going to set up an earthly kingdom and “show” them how to be righteous. In other words they would be earthly rulers still working for their righteousness. Through his sermon Peter told these Jews that Jesus died and was now in heaven. He told them that Jesus was King, Lord  and the Messiah. The only thing that he left out was the most important for mankind. Through Jesus they would have their sins forgiven. He was not telling them they had to be baptized to get sins removed. He was telling them that Jesus' mission and purpose was for the forgiveness of sins for all mankind. When they became a follower of Christ it meant that their sins would be forgiven. Baptism in His name only showed the world that they were followers of Christ. Being a follower of Christ means your sins are forgiven with or without baptism.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, NKJV

In Peter's second sermon it was not mentioned that they had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to get the Spirit. When Cornelius and his household were saved it had nothing to do with their baptism which came later.

By your way of thinking we should not witness to someone who is dying because we can't get them saved until they get baptized. I know people who believe the way you do and they will not do prison ministry because you can't baptize them immediately. There are probably some of your belief that will still witness in such situations so I do not want to say all like believers will not witness in such situations. But I can see that it would deter some from such endeavors.

I do not see your answer to the disciples getting baptized.

So when did the people in the upper chamber on Pentecost get baptized in the name of Jesus? If water baptism was a requirement for the forgiveness of sins God would certainly show His church an example to follow by the Apostles water baptism.

It would have had to have been prior to Pentecost and after Jesus' death. John recorded an event when he and other disciples had breakfast with Jesus by the sea.That would have been a perfect time for Jesus to say let's baptize you in my name for the remission of sins.

Acts 1:21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." NKJV

Another perfect time to teach the church that water baptism in Jesus' name was a requirement. This is the last time prior to the apostles having the Spirit come upon them. The only requirement named was to be to be a companion all the time of Jesus' ministry. This has to far less important than to have had your sins forgiven. If God recorded this He certainly would have recorded the water baptism for remission of sins. When did the Apostles get water Baptism to be forgiven?

Another perfect time to teach the church that water baptism in Jesus' name was a requirement. This is the last time prior to the apostles having the Spirit come upon them. The only requirement named was to be to be a companion all the time of Jesus' ministry. This has to far less important than to have had your sins forgiven. If God recorded this He certainly would have recorded the water baptism for remission of sins. When did the Apostles get water Baptism to be forgiven?

John 4:1  Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
John 4:2  (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

It is hard to believe that his disciples [apostles] were baptizing and had not themselves been baptized.

19,
It doesn't say and you know it doesn't say. But we know they were inducted. And we know whatever that situation was, it didn't continue, as seen at Pentecost. Even with the next apostle chosen after Pentecost, Saul, baptism was still in effect. There was a turning point.

4WD,

In any event, I think the question of baptism for the apostles is moot, an answer to which may satisfy the curiosity of some, but is of little consequence to the whole issue of baptism.

Agreed.

I believe that your saying one's sins are only forgiven under NT rules when water baptism in the name of Jesus occurs.

  No I am not.

....then your saying that one can be forgiven without water baptism.

Jesus personally saved a number of people, most of whom we do not know anything about whether they were water baptized of not.  But that was Jesus, and He is no longer personally here and we don't read of anyone else with the power and authority to do that.  Of course God can save whomever He wants, but I would advise doing as He has said and I don't believe He has said any other way.

The difference between John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus is that with the latter comes the gift of the Holy Spirit.  That is apparent in the descriptions of both and in the account given in Acts 19:1-6.

19,

The last sentence in you first paragraph( In bold)  sure makes it sound like only in special circumstances would someone be saved without water baptism.

Well of course. Whatever period it was between Jesus's resurrection and Pentecost, it doesn't apply to today, because it ended. Even if there is any special circumstance these days, there's no way to know until you're facing judgment day. What an unwise wager to play. You don't have the authority to tell people to countermand God's word, saying that one can be saved without water baptism, and assure them of salvation if they do, none of us have that authority. That's why 4WD said he would advise doing as God has said and he doesn't believe God has said any other way.

Look, Peter very clearly said to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of sins."  So those two things are requirements for forgiveness.  Are there exceptions?  I think so.  But exceptions are exceptions.  We should NOT be telling Christians that "Well, you should get baptized, but of course you'll still be saved if you don't."

Various ministries sponsor  an event. It lasts 1 or 2 days. Most witness there travel to get to these events. When we lead someone to Christ we get all contact information about those who confess Christ. We give all that information  to the sponsoring ministry and they do the follow up mentoring and baptism.

Yes 19, it is apparent that is what you are saying.  The problem with that is the Bible does not ever say that.  You say that; the Bible doesn't. I would suggest that everyone ignore what you are saying about it and go with what the Bible says.

Gen 17:9 , Ex 4:25, Josh 5:6-7.

All speak to the fact that God requires one obey the requirements of the covenant immediately or in the case in Joshua prior to entering the promised land. According to those who say water baptism in Jesus' name is a requirement for the new covenant this has to be done prior to entering into the covenant. Jesus did have the authority to forgive sins as He walked the earth during the old covenant time prior to His death. When he died , blood was shed, and the new covenant was established all in the new covenant people  had to meet the conditions. Abraham, even though he was righteous, had to submit to circumcision. Since Abraham had to be circumcised the rule has been set. All those in the upper room had to meet all the requirements of the NT. If God was faithful to record the fact that all the forefathers of Israel were circumcised then He would record the requirements of the NT were met by the forefathers of His church. I ask: when were the Apostles water baptized in the name of Jesus.