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Offline 19

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Romans 3:25
« on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 09:54:36 »
Rom 3: 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

God is righteous- who does He need to demonstrate it to? He doesn't need to demonstrate it to anybody. He is God and doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. However, God loves His creation and it's important to Him that we know Him. We cannot love anyone unless we know them. We cannot trust someone unless we know their character. We cannot have faith in anyone unless we know them and love them. We are saved by faith therefore God wanted to prove His righteousness to us so we could have complete faith in Jesus.

The only way to be righteous is to obey all of God's laws all the time. Therefore, for God to be righteous it means that He obeys His own laws. How does passing over the sins previously committed demonstrate His righteousness?

Remember the flood,  Sodom, the Canaanites all those occasions in the old testament where it says God killed people who were unrighteous. He did not send them to hell for their sins. Could God be righteous if He judged each person by a different standard?

Prov 11:1 Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight. NKJV

Is God only worried about the scales of commerce and not the scales of Justice? No. Justice demands equal punishment for equal crime. Therefore, God is saying that everyone from the beginning  of time will be judged by one law.  That is: have you accepted the covering for sin that God provided.

We can have complete faith in Jesus alone because God will only punish eternally those who do not accept His salvation.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 16:48:21 by 19 »

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Romans 3:25
« on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 09:54:36 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 14:17:31 »
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« Last Edit: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 19:37:34 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 14:17:31 »

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 14:26:45 »
THIS IS A PATTERN FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT SPEAK THE WORD: THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST SAYS THAT THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom. 3:2 Much every way:
        chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3051. logion, log´-ee-on; neuter of 3052; an utterance (of God): — oracle. The Word, Dabar or Greek Logos is the "THAT CONCERNING ME" Says Jesus who defines EXCLUSIVELY the Speaking Roles in the Great Commission.  Peter understood that:

         1Pet. 4:11 If ANY man SPEAK, 
               let him speak as the oracles of God;
        if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
        that GOD
        in all things may be glorified
        through Jesus Christ,
        to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe?
        shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom. 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;
        as it is written, That thou mightest be JUSTIFYIED in THY SAYINGS
        and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom. 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God,
        what shall we say?
        Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

THERE IS PROBABLY NO GREATER INSULT THAN TO COLLECT PAYING AUDIENCE TO SPEAK YOUR OWN WORDS AND CLAIM TO SPEAK THE ORACLES OF GOD.

Rom. 3:6 God forbid:
        for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom. 3:7 For if the TRUTH of God hath more abounded
        through my lie unto his glory;
        why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom. 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported,
        and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil,
        that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they?
        No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,
        that they are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 As it is written,
        There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom. 3:11 There is none that UNDERSTANDETH,
        there is none that SEEKETH after God.

    Is. 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib:
             but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
    Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a SEED of evildoers,
            children that are corrupters:
            they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked [blasphemaverunt]
            The Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
    Isaiah 1:8  And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard,
            as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
    Isaiah 1: 9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant,
            we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.


    Is. 1:10 Hear the WORD of the LORD, ye RULERS of Sodom;
            give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

        Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
        which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

    The Spirit OF Christ contradicts. God said nothing about their mental attutude:

    Is. 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD:
            I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts;
            and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

THE ASSEMBLY OR SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST IS BUILT UPON OR EDUCATED BY THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES.  LET ME KNOW WHETHER YOUR RULERS HAVE DUCT TAPED THE MOUTH OF JESUS.

    Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their RULERS,
            because they knew him not,
            nor yet the voices of the prophets
            which are READ every sabbath day,
            they have fulfilled them in condemning him
    Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
            them that PREACH him,
            being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
            and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath [REST] day,
            and stood up for to READ.
    Acts 13:15 And after the READING of the law and the prophets
            the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying,
            Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation [comfort]
            for the people, say on.


You say a lot but it doesn't pertain to the post. It sounds like you are saying there is no light in me. That would indicate that you think I am not saved?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 14:26:45 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 15:11:10 »
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« Last Edit: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 19:37:06 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 15:11:10 »
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Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 16:59:24 »
If you quote one verse from Romans 3 then the rest of Romans needs to be discussed. I was quoting Scripture which I though you might recognize:

Is. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you,
       Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
       and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
       should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony:
       if they SPEAK not according to this WORD,
       it is because there is no light in them.

Much of the time Paul is not discussing denominational DOGMA but is a commentary on the prophets and DEBUNKING the Jews whose RULERS were ignorant because they REJECT the Pattern established for the Church in the Wilderness and never changed.


You start your reply to my first post with “this is a pattern for those who do not speak the word of God: The Spirit of Christ says there is no light in them” and it is in all caps which is equivalent to yelling.

That statement has nothing to do with the topic

Then you reply if one scripture from Romans is cited then the topic is all of Romans. By that logic anything posted has no topic that has to be adhered to when replying to a post.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 16:59:24 »



Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 19:36:34 »
What I wrote about Romans 3:25 intended to extend your comments with SCRIPTURE.  I thought you might be interested in some of the definitions and cross references. If you think that quoting the CONTEXT is speaking about you I will post my comments elsewhere.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 19:36:34 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 12:21:20 »
19,
Quote
That is: have you accepted the covering for sin that God provided.

We can have complete faith in Jesus alone because God will only punish eternally those who do not accept His salvation.
I'm sorry, where in the New Testament does it say that "accepting" the covering for sin and "accepting" His salvation are how one comes into salvation?

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 15:43:45 »
19,I'm sorry, where in the New Testament does it say that "accepting" the covering for sin and "accepting" His salvation are how one comes into salvation?

Your right. It does not explicitly say that one accepts salvation.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) NKJV

What free gift is Paul writing about in the above? The answer is in verse 17. The gift is the gift of righteousness.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

In Romans 6:23 above the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. It's the same because “in Jesus” a person has the righteousness of Jesus.

1 Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV

Jesus is the savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. NKJV

Jesus is not only our propitiation for our sin. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world.

This is because God gave the world a free gift. Am I preaching universal salvation? No. Not all people enter into heaven even though they have been given a free gift. A gift is only good to a person if they accept it. God says to accept the gift is to reply to His RSVP.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. NKJV


Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 18:48:25 »
19,
Quote
Your right. It does not explicitly say that one accepts salvation.
An explicit statement in the Bible is the burden of proof to authenticate a teaching.

Quote
A gift is only good to a person if they accept it. God says to accept the gift is to reply to His RSVP.
Where does God say to accept the gift? Receiving as you said earlier only refers to the event where something is given, such as when person receives a delivery from Amazon at his front door. He doesn't even have to be there when it happens. It discusses none of the precursors. You sound very steeped in evangelical rhetoric.

Quote
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
And yet the author of Romans 10 Paul, on the road to Damascus Acts 22:8-10, had done all these things. He confessed the Lord Jesus, and by the end of that encounter he certainly believed it too. And yet 3 days later it was revealed by Ananias, that his sins had not yet been washed away Acts 22:16. Although believing in Jesus and confessing him as Lord is certainly involved, there's no way Paul could have been telling his audience that this is all there is to getting saved, since it did not even completely cover his own salvation. And neither in this passage, nor in any other did Paul ever speak of simply "accepting" this gift "God, I accept your gift, thank you", as is popularly described today. This method of "accepting" is never brought up in any of the scriptures, either explicitly, or implicitly. It's not right that this should have to be pointed out. Nobody should have ever started teaching this "accepting" method of salvation without the necessary scriptural confirmation of either the instruction or example that it had been done.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 14:14:10 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 18:48:25 »

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 07:06:03 »
19,Again, does he say that? Where? Receiving as you said earlier only refers to the event where is given to a , such as when person receives a delivery from Amazon at his front door. He doesn't even have to be there when it happens. It discusses none of the precursors.
And yet the author of Romans 10 Paul, on the road to Damascus Acts 22:8-10, had done all these things. He confessed the Lord Jesus, and by the end of that encounter he certainly believed it too. And yet 3 days later it was revealed by Ananias, that his sins had not yet been washed away Acts 22:16. Although believing in Jesus and confessing him as Lord is certainly involved, there's no way Paul could have been telling his audience that this is all there is to getting saved, since it did not even completely cover his own salvation. And neither in this passage, nor in any other did Paul ever speak of simply "accepting" this gift "God, I accept your gift, thank you", as is popularly described today. This method of "accepting" is never brought up in any of the scriptures, either explicitly, or implicitly. It's not right that this should have to be pointed out. Nobody should have ever started teaching this "accepting" method of salvation without the necessary scriptural confirmation of either the instruction or example that it had been done.

Yes Paul called Jesus Lord but didn't get the Spirit until later. Paul was a Jew and had rejected Jesus.  Not only had He rejected Jesus but he had committed monstrous acts against the church. Paul was caught off guard and confessed Jesus Lord from fear.  He had to become ready to accept God's grace.

Acts 26:9 "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.  11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. NKJV

Paul became a monster in order to eradicate the church. In the above he admits to torturing believers so they would blaspheme. He had to come to terms with his past actions against the church and Jesus. I have witnessed to people who were convinced that God could not forgive them because their sins were, to them, unforgivable .  I believe Paul had to be able to forgive himself before he could accept forgiveness from God. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 07:21:25 »
Yes Paul called Jesus Lord but didn't get the Spirit until later. Paul was a Jew and had rejected Jesus.  Not only had He rejected Jesus but he had committed monstrous acts against the church. Paul was caught off guard and confessed Jesus Lord from fear.  He had to become ready to accept God's grace.
Paul didn't call Jesus Lord when confronted on the road to Damascus.  He recognized that the one confronting him was Lord  --  Lord in the sense of YHWH of the Old Covenant, the Covenant he knew and recognized.  His question was really, "What do you mean 'persecuting' you?"  He thought he was doing the Lord's work in his persecution.  It was Jesus who identified Himself as Lord.  It was only after Jesus identified Himself that Paul accepted who Jesus really was.  Clearly in that instant and during the next three days Paul came to the understanding of just who Jesus really was and believed in Him.  But still it was only after that that his sins were forgiven [washed away in baptism] and thereby saved.

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 09:38:24 »
Paul didn't call Jesus Lord when confronted on the road to Damascus.  He recognized that the one confronting him was Lord  --  Lord in the sense of YHWH of the Old Covenant, the Covenant he knew and recognized.  His question was really, "What do you mean 'persecuting' you?"  He thought he was doing the Lord's work in his persecution.  It was Jesus who identified Himself as Lord.  It was only after Jesus identified Himself that Paul accepted who Jesus really was.  Clearly in that instant and during the next three days Paul came to the understanding of just who Jesus really was and believed in Him.  But still it was only after that that his sins were forgiven [washed away in baptism] and thereby saved.

In other words you are saying that one is not saved until being baptized. In several places it does say “be baptized” for forgivness of sins.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: NKJV

1 John 5:9  He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
NKJV


1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain. NKJV

These all speak of believing being the key to salvation. All those that speak of salvation being a gift speak to the fact that we do nothing to get salvation but receive the gift. If one has to pay anything (work or in kind) it ceases to be a gift. All we have to do is have faith.

 Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God NKJV

Even that faith is a gift. If faith were tied to a work it ceases to be a gift. We get that faith when we accept the fact (believe) that Jesus died to pay for our sins and was resurrected for our justification (Believe in Jesus).

It is a sin not to be baptized because this is the first thing God asks us to do after our conversion. When the Apostles told people to be baptized they were telling people to be obedient to the first command given. You cannot have all sins forgiven if you start out with one new one.  Disobedience causes a loss of fellowship not a loss of opportunity to be saved.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 09:52:57 »
In other words you are saying that one is not saved until being baptized. In several places it does say “be baptized” for forgivness of sins.
I am not saying specifically that one is not saved until being baptized.   I am saying that one is not saved until their sins are forgiven.  And the Bible says that the purpose of baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.  It also brings the gift of the Holy Spirit.  I think it is foolish to hope that God doesn't really expect the sinner to go all the way to being baptized.
Quote from: 19
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: NKJV
Can one really believe in Christ Jesus and then reject what he has said about baptism?  Personally, I do not think so.
Quote from: 19
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God NKJV
Even that faith is a gift. If faith were tied to a work it ceases to be a gift. We get that faith when we accept the fact (believe) that Jesus died to pay for our sins and was resurrected for our justification (Believe in Jesus).
Most credible scholars will admit that the gift is not faith; rather the gift is being saved by grace through faith.
Quote from: 19
Disobedience causes a loss of fellowship not a loss of opportunity to be saved.
For one who has heard the gospel, believed, repented, and has been baptized, even disobedience does not cause a loss of fellowship.  The saint does not pop into and out of fellowship with each sin/repentance incident.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 12:19:38 »
19
Quote
In other words you are saying that one is not saved until being baptized. In several places it does say “be baptized” for forgivness of sins.
And yet it does not say "accepting salvation" in ANY place in the Bible. The burden of proof is not that it appears every time. The burden of proof is that a true teaching, as opposed to a false teaching, appears in the Bible explicitly at least once. Being baptized in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins/salvation meets that burden of proof several times, whereas the "accepting salvation" method does not meet that burden of proof at all.

Quote
Even that faith is a gift. If faith were tied to a work it ceases to be a gift. We get that faith when we believe that Jesus died to pay for our sins and was resurrected for our justification (Believe in Jesus).
The text of Bible is consistent, since there's no Biblical burden of proof met identifying baptism in Jesus's name as a work.

Quote
It is a sin not to be baptized because this is the first thing God asks us to do after our conversion. When the Apostles told people to be baptized they were telling people to be obedient to the first command given.
Again, where do any of the Apostle say that baptism is the first command after conversion, or that it even comes after conversion?  You need to stop taking for granted the stuff handed to you by the evangelical belief system and not be willing to put forth anything unless you've seen it "written" in the scriptures.

Quote
Disobedience causes a loss of fellowship not a loss of opportunity to be saved.
Really?
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 12:36:53 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 13:13:48 »
19,
Quote
Yes Paul called Jesus Lord but didn't get the Spirit until later. Paul was a Jew and had rejected Jesus.  Not only had He rejected Jesus but he had committed monstrous acts against the church. Paul was caught off guard and confessed Jesus Lord from fear.  He had to become ready to accept God's grace.

Acts 26:9 "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.  11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. NKJV

Paul became a monster in order to eradicate the church. In the above he admits to torturing believers so they would blaspheme. He had to come to terms with his past actions against the church and Jesus. I have witnessed to people who were convinced that God could not forgive them because their sins were, to them, unforgivable .  I believe Paul had to be able to forgive himself before he could accept forgiveness from God.
Thank you for your response. Do you not think the three days he spent not eating or drinking anything was enough time? And that he was only willing to accept God's grace when Ananias showed up? I think it was plenty of time for him to come to the realization of everything that had just happened on the road to Damascus, yet his sins were still not washed away by the time Ananias showed up.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 14:42:48 »
I am not saying specifically that one is not saved until being baptized.   I am saying that one is not saved until their sins are forgiven.  And the Bible says that the purpose of baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.  It also brings the gift of the Holy Spirit.  I think it is foolish to hope that God doesn't really expect the sinner to go all the way to being baptized.Can one really believe in Christ Jesus and then reject what he has said about baptism?  Personally, I do not think so.Most credible scholars will admit that the gift is not faith; rather the gift is being saved by grace through faith.For one who has heard the gospel, believed, repented, and has been baptized, even disobedience does not cause a loss of fellowship.  The saint does not pop into and out of fellowship with each sin/repentance incident.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, NKJV

I noticed that you did not commit on the above. Paul states quite clearly that the Spirit of Jesus is given when one believes. If one has the Spirit of Jesus they are saved. To be saved one is justified or forgiven.

I hope the order corresponds to your reply. First.

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." NKJV

The testimony of all the OT prophets is if you believe in Him ( Jesus) you will be forgiven.

Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. NKJV

Paul's preaching in Antioch Pisidia.

All of the above testify that to be forgiven all one has to do is believe in Jesus.

Second order of your post:

I reject the doctrine that we have to be baptized to be justified or forgiven. If by your doctrine that makes me unforgivable then I believe that your faith is divided between your work of being baptized and Jesus. Faith should be  in Jesus alone and not shared with any work of ours.

Third order of your post.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NKJV

The following are some who agree that faith is a gift. The Abbotts' Illustrated New Testament. ESV Study Bible, Holman Bible Handbook, John Gill's Exposition of the Old and New Testaments, Barnes notes on the new testament,Matthew Henry.
I have no knowledge if you consider them to be credible.

Last order of your post:

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. NKJV

John is writing to a church of believers. He is warning them of losing fellowship. . Yes we do not go in and out of fellowship. But if we remain in disobedience and don't respond to correction we lose fellowship. Paul turned two believers over to Satan. I really don't know what that means but I not sure I would not feel in fellowship
in such a situation.


Reply to  e.r.m

As to accepting the gift here is the defination of accept:

1. To receive with a consenting mind (something offered); as, to accept a gift;

Syn. — To receive; take; admit.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

If grace and righteousness (Ro 5:17) is a gift as stated in the bible and we accept the gift then we receive the gift with a consenting mind. I ask you: What happens if we do not accept the gift? If you did not accept His gift then how did you receive it?

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: NKJV

A synonym of receive is accept. As many as accepted Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God.   

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 15:04:34 »
What does it mean to "believe"?  As I asked previously, can one believe in God, Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet reject anything they say?  I don't think so.  Can you receive Him or accept Him and not receive and accept what He says? Again, I don't think so.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 15:06:46 by 4WD »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 21:26:13 »
19,
Quote
Reply to  e.r.m

As to accepting the gift here is the defination of accept:

1. To receive with a consenting mind (something offered); as, to accept a gift;

Syn. — To receive; take; admit.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

If grace and righteousness (Ro 5:17) is a gift as stated in the bible and we accept the gift then we receive the gift with a consenting mind. I ask you: What happens if we do not accept the gift? If you did not accept His gift then how did you receive it?
I appreciate the hard work you put into these posts. The thing is that you were making a modern logical deduction based on their use of the word gifts. Yes, we generally accept or reject gifts. That is the discussion that surrounds gifts, in the conventional sense these days. However, in order to get a correct understanding of what they were talking about, we must see how they talk about it, instead of transposing conversations from outside the Bible. To understand what they meant, we must stay within their conversations and they're frame of mind. "The Bible authors" did not speak of in terms of accepting or receiving salvation, like one accepts a wedding gift.

Quote
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: NKJV

A synonym of receive is accept. As many as accepted Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God.
It's a synonym, because it's not exact. Accepting involves more participation of the individual than just receiving. One does not need to be there to receive a gift if it's dropped at his doorstep, one does have to be there to accept it, generally speaking. But neither receive nor accept would help you with John 1:12. Sure, to those who gave Jesus a good reception, who gave him their attention, who gave him a chance and believed his claims, God gave the right to then become His children.
Read the text,  it doesn't say to those who received salvation or to those who received him as savior, as per evangelical lingo. It says to those who received him, He gave the "right/authority/power" (in the Greek) to become children of God. That language does not match modern day Those who received Jesus "as savior" are now children of God. If that's what they had done, they wouldn't have to "become" children of God.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:40:10 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 15:13:32 »
What does it mean to "believe"?  As I asked previously, can one believe in God, Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet reject anything they say?  I don't think so.  Can you receive Him or accept Him and not receive and accept what He says? Again, I don't think so.

We are saved by believing the gospel. To put it another way we are saved by believing in Jesus. If we believe the gospel we put our faith in Jesus for salvation. We are not saved by believing everything in the bible which we should. If we had to have perfect doctrine no one would ever be saved. You read that we must be baptized to receive forgiveness. I do get from the scriptures that we have to be baptized for remission. Yes we should believe all that is in the bible. And yes we should believe all that Jesus said.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

Now let's look at what Paul told a gentile.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. NKJV

Believe on the Lord Jesus and they will be saved. Yes they then were baptized into obedience . But for salvation, forgiveness and justification, they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Another gentile church:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.  NKJV

Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.

The Jews knew that when one was baptized in the name of someone they were being baptized to realize all that the name implies. All the unbelieving Jews still thought that the messiah was going to set up an earthly kingdom and “show” them how to be righteous. In other words they would be earthly rulers still working for their righteousness. Through his sermon Peter told these Jews that Jesus died and was now in heaven. He told them that Jesus was King, Lord  and the Messiah. The only thing that he left out was the most important for mankind. Through Jesus they would have their sins forgiven. He was not telling them they had to be baptized to get sins removed. He was telling them that Jesus' mission and purpose was for the forgiveness of sins for all mankind. When they became a follower of Christ it meant that their sins would be forgiven. Baptism in His name only showed the world that they were followers of Christ. Being a follower of Christ means your sins are forgiven with or without baptism.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, NKJV

In Peter's second sermon it was not mentioned that they had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to get the Spirit. When Cornelius and his household were saved it had nothing to do with their baptism which came later.

By your way of thinking we should not witness to someone who is dying because we can't get them saved until they get baptized. I know people who believe the way you do and they will not do prison ministry because you can't baptize them immediately. There are probably some of your belief that will still witness in such situations so I do not want to say all like believers will not witness in such situations. But I can see that it would deter some from such endeavors.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 20:21:52 »
19,
Quote
We are saved by believing the gospel. To put it another way we are saved by believing in Jesus. If we believe the gospel we put our faith in Jesus for salvation. We are not saved by believing everything in the bible which we should. If we had to have perfect doctrine no one would ever be saved. You read that we must be baptized to receive forgiveness. I do get from the scriptures that we have to be baptized for remission. Yes we should believe all that is in the bible. And yes we should believe all that Jesus said.
On the same page. Remission from what though? Acts 2:38 does it stop at the word remission.

Quote
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NKJV
Ok, thank you.

Quote
Now let's look at what Paul told a gentile.
Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. NKJV

Believe on the Lord Jesus and they will be saved. Yes they then were baptized into obedience . But for salvation, forgiveness and justification, they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus.
first, I commend you tremendously as you are the first Evangelical I've seen here who does not stop quoting the passage at verse 31. Kudos! I very much appreciate that. Secondly, when they said believe on the Lord Jesus, that was only there introductory statement. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing the message, so they begin with believe on the Lord Jesus and spoke the rest of the word of the Lord to him. Then they had something to believe. And it says he rejoiced because he and his family had come to believe on the Lord, after they were baptized. Their belief was all inclusive of everything they had gone through that night, including their baptism. But either way, you can't make any conclusion statements without knowing specifically what was taught to them, and what was said to them about baptism, since they were baptized. You certainly cannot say they were baptized into obedience, you are adding that to the passage.
About to be baptized into obedience, or as an act of obedience has its origin here:
The Faith and Practise of Thirty Congregations Gathered According to the Primitive Pattern

Published (in love) by consent of two from each Congregation, appointed for that purpose.

London, Printed by J. M. for Will. Larnar, at the Blackmore neer Fleet-bridge, 1651.


49. That when Baptisme is made known, or any other Action of obedience, then for men to refuse it, they are said to reject the counsel of God against themselves; Luk. 7. 30.

The whole vocabulary of baptism and obedience did not exist prior to this event.

Quote
Another gentile church:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.  NKJV
Ephesus, as you mentioned,  Acts 19:1-3, Paul included baptism in Jesus's name in his definition of belief.
Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples [2] and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
 They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” [3] So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John's baptism,” they replied.


If they believed, then they should have already been baptized. You can't rule out in the same city in Ephesians 1:13, that Paul did it not also include baptism when you said believed. You need to look elsewhere.

Quote
Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.
Luke 5:24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Jesus had that authority on earth to override the animal sacrifice requirement. But the apostles themselves made it clear, of what the expectations were henceforth
Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off---for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Quote
The Jews knew that when one was baptized in the name of someone they were being baptized to realize all that the name implies. All the unbelieving Jews still thought that the messiah was going to set up an earthly kingdom and “show” them how to be righteous. In other words they would be earthly rulers still working for their righteousness. Through his sermon Peter told these Jews that Jesus died and was now in heaven. He told them that Jesus was King, Lord  and the Messiah. The only thing that he left out was the most important for mankind. Through Jesus they would have their sins forgiven.
Agreed.

Quote
He was not telling them they had to be baptized to get sins removed. He was telling them that Jesus' mission and purpose was for the forgiveness of sins for all mankind. When they became a follower of Christ it meant that their sins would be forgiven. Baptism in His name only showed the world that they were followers of Christ. Being a follower of Christ means your sins are forgiven with or without baptism.
This would be correct except for the fact that Peter didn't say any of this. Peter did say
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

and that's what he meant.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, NKJV

Bear in mind, they were arrested before they finished Acts 4:1, you can't rule out from this event.

Quote
In Peter's second sermon it was not mentioned that they had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to get the Spirit. When Cornelius and his household were saved it had nothing to do with their baptism which came later.
As with the Philippian jailer, the purpose of their baptism in water in Jesus's name was not recorded. But neither does the passage mention when they were saved. Evangelicals speak of when the Holy Spirit fell upon them as synonymous with them being saved. You also said "When Cornelius and his household were saved...", adding to the passage that didn't even say "saved". It would strain credulity however that this same Peter see that they would be baptized for a different reason than the one he stated in Acts 2:38-39, especially since he included Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children for ALL who are far off —for ALL whom the Lord our God will call.”
Cornelius and company are included in ALL.
I don't see Peter saying. "Jews, you get baptized for this purpose and Cornelius & company, you get baptized for that purpose."

Quote
By your way of thinking we should not witness to someone who is dying because we can't get them saved until they get baptized. I know people who believe the way you do and they will not do prison ministry because you can't baptize them immediately. There are probably some of your belief that will still witness in such situations so I do not want to say all like believers will not witness in such situations. But I can see that it would deter some from such endeavors.
That's a fair assessment. That would be more of an issue of willingness and asking God for a way  than belief and doctrine. I know someone who while in jail baptized a fellow inmate. And the Philippian jailer didn't get baptized immediately, although fairly quickly.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:21:53 by e.r.m. »

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 07:25:18 »
We are saved by believing the gospel. To put it another way we are saved by believing in Jesus. If we believe the gospel we put our faith in Jesus for salvation. We are not saved by believing everything in the bible which we should. If we had to have perfect doctrine no one would ever be saved. You read that we must be baptized to receive forgiveness. I do get from the scriptures that we have to be baptized for remission. Yes we should believe all that is in the bible. And yes we should believe all that Jesus said.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

Now let's look at what Paul told a gentile.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. NKJV

Believe on the Lord Jesus and they will be saved. Yes they then were baptized into obedience . But for salvation, forgiveness and justification, they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Another gentile church:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.  NKJV

Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.

The Jews knew that when one was baptized in the name of someone they were being baptized to realize all that the name implies. All the unbelieving Jews still thought that the messiah was going to set up an earthly kingdom and “show” them how to be righteous. In other words they would be earthly rulers still working for their righteousness. Through his sermon Peter told these Jews that Jesus died and was now in heaven. He told them that Jesus was King, Lord  and the Messiah. The only thing that he left out was the most important for mankind. Through Jesus they would have their sins forgiven. He was not telling them they had to be baptized to get sins removed. He was telling them that Jesus' mission and purpose was for the forgiveness of sins for all mankind. When they became a follower of Christ it meant that their sins would be forgiven. Baptism in His name only showed the world that they were followers of Christ. Being a follower of Christ means your sins are forgiven with or without baptism.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, NKJV

In Peter's second sermon it was not mentioned that they had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to get the Spirit. When Cornelius and his household were saved it had nothing to do with their baptism which came later.

By your way of thinking we should not witness to someone who is dying because we can't get them saved until they get baptized. I know people who believe the way you do and they will not do prison ministry because you can't baptize them immediately. There are probably some of your belief that will still witness in such situations so I do not want to say all like believers will not witness in such situations. But I can see that it would deter some from such endeavors.

I do not see your answer to the disciples getting baptized.

So when did the people in the upper chamber on Pentecost get baptized in the name of Jesus? If water baptism was a requirement for the forgiveness of sins God would certainly show His church an example to follow by the Apostles water baptism.

It would have had to have been prior to Pentecost and after Jesus' death. John recorded an event when he and other disciples had breakfast with Jesus by the sea.That would have been a perfect time for Jesus to say let's baptize you in my name for the remission of sins.

Acts 1:21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." NKJV

Another perfect time to teach the church that water baptism in Jesus' name was a requirement. This is the last time prior to the apostles having the Spirit come upon them. The only requirement named was to be to be a companion all the time of Jesus' ministry. This has to far less important than to have had your sins forgiven. If God recorded this He certainly would have recorded the water baptism for remission of sins. When did the Apostles get water Baptism to be forgiven?

« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 07:30:37 by 19 »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:23:11 »
19,
My answer was
Quote
Back to the Jews. Did the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost have to be baptized in the name of Jesus for salvation? No. Because they knew what Jesus the messiah was all about. The rest of Judaism had to still come to that knowledge.
Luke 5:24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Jesus had that authority on earth to override the animal sacrifice requirement. But the apostles themselves made it clear, of what the expectations were henceforth
Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off---for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:24:10 »
Another perfect time to teach the church that water baptism in Jesus' name was a requirement. This is the last time prior to the apostles having the Spirit come upon them. The only requirement named was to be to be a companion all the time of Jesus' ministry. This has to far less important than to have had your sins forgiven. If God recorded this He certainly would have recorded the water baptism for remission of sins. When did the Apostles get water Baptism to be forgiven?

John 4:1  Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
John 4:2  (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),


It is hard to believe that his disciples [apostles] were baptizing and had not themselves been baptized.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 16:41:48 »
19,
My answer wasLuke 5:24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Jesus had that authority on earth to override the animal sacrifice requirement. But the apostles themselves made it clear, of what the expectations were henceforth
Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off---for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


Mark 2:10  But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" NKJV

Power on earth to forgive sins. They were all still under the old covenant. Any new sins committed had
to be covered.  Yes while Jesus was on earth He could forgive sins. And He could forgive all sins committed up to that time. Until He died and the new covenant had started He could only cover sins till He died. T

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." NKJV

Then according to you one had to be baptized in the name of Jesus to have sins forgiven. Then Once one is in Him all sins are covered. Until after Jesus died the old was in force.

John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John  2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),  NKJV

4WD

His disciples were baptizing under the authority of John's baptism. Once again the OT rules apply. Only in the NT are sins covered in Jesus.

I ask again when were the apostles water baptized in the name of Jesus?

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 17:35:33 »
19,
It doesn't say and you know it doesn't say. But we know they were inducted. And we know whatever that situation was, it didn't continue, as seen at Pentecost. Even with the next apostle chosen after Pentecost, Saul, baptism was still in effect. There was a turning point.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 17:39:22 by e.r.m. »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 17:46:51 »
4WD

His disciples were baptizing under the authority of John's baptism. Once again the OT rules apply. Only in the NT are sins covered in Jesus.
That is probably true.  But you asked
When did the Apostles get water Baptism to be forgiven?
John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3).
Quote from: 19
I ask again when were the apostles water baptized in the name of Jesus?
We are not told specifically that they were baptized in the name of Jesus [or with John's baptism either for that matter].  Again, however, since we are not told that they weren't, we can assume that they were.  On the other hand, some claim John 20:22 accounts for them receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Thus receiving forgiveness of sins in John's baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit by direct gift from Jesus personally is the equivalent of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In any event, I think the question of baptism for the apostles is moot, an answer to which may satisfy the curiosity of some, but is of little consequence to the whole issue of baptism.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 17:50:55 »
4WD,
Quote
In any event, I think the question of baptism for the apostles is moot, an answer to which may satisfy the curiosity of some, but is of little consequence to the whole issue of baptism.
Agreed.

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 18:57:58 »
That is probably true.  But you asked John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). We are not told specifically that they were baptized in the name of Jesus [or with John's baptism either for that matter].  Again, however, since we are not told that they weren't, we can assume that they were.  On the other hand, some claim John 20:22 accounts for them receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Thus receiving forgiveness of sins in John's baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit by direct gift from Jesus personally is the equivalent of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In any event, I think the question of baptism for the apostles is moot, an answer to which may satisfy the curiosity of some, but is of little consequence to the whole issue of baptism.

I believe that your saying one's sins are only forgiven under NT rules when water baptism in the name of Jesus occurs. OT rules applied until Jesus died.The NT starts at the death of Jesus Jesus. Everyone from that point on
only had sins forgiven under NT rules. Therefore, it is not a moot point when the apostles were baptized. At that point sins are only forgiven under NT rules.

Now you cited Jn 20:22 and said "some claim" , are you saying that is when the Spirit was given to the apostles?
If you are then your saying that one can be forgiven without water baptism.

I just thought of something. When Jesus died He asked the Father to forgive all the Jews. So by my way of thinking the apostles started with a new slate. But since they were still ashamed of being identified with Jesus
from that point they had to have been water baptized.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 19:10:59 by 19 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #28 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 20:11:41 »
I believe that your saying one's sins are only forgiven under NT rules when water baptism in the name of Jesus occurs.
  No I am not.
Quote from: 19
....then your saying that one can be forgiven without water baptism.
Jesus personally saved a number of people, most of whom we do not know anything about whether they were water baptized of not.  But that was Jesus, and He is no longer personally here and we don't read of anyone else with the power and authority to do that.  Of course God can save whomever He wants, but I would advise doing as He has said and I don't believe He has said any other way.

The difference between John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus is that with the latter comes the gift of the Holy Spirit.  That is apparent in the descriptions of both and in the account given in Acts 19:1-6.

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #29 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 22:25:48 »
  No I am not.Jesus personally saved a number of people, most of whom we do not know anything about whether they were water baptized of not.  But that was Jesus, and He is no longer personally here and we don't read of anyone else with the power and authority to do that.  Of course God can save whomever He wants, but I would advise doing as He has said and I don't believe He has said any other way.

The difference between John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus is that with the latter comes the gift of the Holy Spirit.  That is apparent in the descriptions of both and in the account given in Acts 19:1-6.

I wish that you wouldn't cut my sentences in half. It makes them say something different. The last sentence in you first paragraph( In bold)  sure makes it sound like only in special circumstances would someone be saved without water baptism.

I am saying that one can be saved without water baptism. It is not a requirement for salvation. However, if I lead someone to Christ I always tell them that God expects them to be baptized as soon as possible. If they do not or cannot get baptized they are still saved.



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 22:48:48 »
19,
Quote
The last sentence in you first paragraph( In bold)  sure makes it sound like only in special circumstances would someone be saved without water baptism.
Well of course. Whatever period it was between Jesus's resurrection and Pentecost, it doesn't apply to today, because it ended. Even if there is any special circumstance these days, there's no way to know until you're facing judgment day. What an unwise wager to play. You don't have the authority to tell people to countermand God's word, saying that one can be saved without water baptism, and assure them of salvation if they do, none of us have that authority. That's why 4WD said he would advise doing as God has said and he doesn't believe God has said any other way.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:03:30 by e.r.m. »

Offline Open Heart

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #31 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 02:49:46 »
Look, Peter very clearly said to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of sins."  So those two things are requirements for forgiveness.  Are there exceptions?  I think so.  But exceptions are exceptions.  We should NOT be telling Christians that "Well, you should get baptized, but of course you'll still be saved if you don't."

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #32 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 06:46:13 »
Look, Peter very clearly said to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of sins."  So those two things are requirements for forgiveness.  Are there exceptions?  I think so.  But exceptions are exceptions.  We should NOT be telling Christians that "Well, you should get baptized, but of course you'll still be saved if you don't."

Various ministries sponsor  an event. It lasts 1 or 2 days. Most witness there travel to get to these events. When we lead someone to Christ we get all contact information about those who confess Christ. We give all that information  to the sponsoring ministry and they do the follow up mentoring and baptism.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #33 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 07:05:49 »
I am saying that one can be saved without water baptism. It is not a requirement for salvation. However, if I lead someone to Christ I always tell them that God expects them to be baptized as soon as possible. If they do not or cannot get baptized they are still saved.
Yes 19, it is apparent that is what you are saying.  The problem with that is the Bible does not ever say that.  You say that; the Bible doesn't. I would suggest that everyone ignore what you are saying about it and go with what the Bible says.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 07:08:47 by 4WD »

Offline 19

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #34 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 07:26:54 »
Yes 19, it is apparent that is what you are saying.  The problem with that is the Bible does not ever say that.  You say that; the Bible doesn't. I would suggest that everyone ignore what you are saying about it and go with what the Bible says.

Gen 17:9 , Ex 4:25, Josh 5:6-7.

All speak to the fact that God requires one obey the requirements of the covenant immediately or in the case in Joshua prior to entering the promised land. According to those who say water baptism in Jesus' name is a requirement for the new covenant this has to be done prior to entering into the covenant. Jesus did have the authority to forgive sins as He walked the earth during the old covenant time prior to His death. When he died , blood was shed, and the new covenant was established all in the new covenant people  had to meet the conditions. Abraham, even though he was righteous, had to submit to circumcision. Since Abraham had to be circumcised the rule has been set. All those in the upper room had to meet all the requirements of the NT. If God was faithful to record the fact that all the forefathers of Israel were circumcised then He would record the requirements of the NT were met by the forefathers of His church. I ask: when were the Apostles water baptized in the name of Jesus.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 07:29:45 by 19 »