Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 10185 times)

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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #140 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 12:28:40 »
4WD,
Quote
Any argument to the contrary is simply a demonstration of ignorance of language.
I don't know, I suspect it's more of a deliberate turning a blind eye. "No it can't be true, what can I look for to make it not true?"

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #140 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 12:28:40 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #141 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 13:22:34 »
Michael, yes a believer is saved because GOD forgives him IN baptism, which if biblical example means anything baptism in christ’s name was immediate. We are clothed with Christ in baptism. God does the forgiving in baptism as plenty of scripture indicates. As I have said the water is powerless, it is simply the mode God chose to do HIS work. Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved.

Believe and wait 3 years to be baptized, God will have to make that call. We only have examples of immediate baptism in scripture.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:08:03 by Jaime »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #142 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 13:43:01 »
Michael, yes a believer is saved because god forgives him in baptism, which if biblical example means anything baptism in christ’s name was immediate. We are clothed with Christ in baptism. God does the forgiving in baptism as plenty of scripture indicates. As I have said the water is powerless, it is simply the mode God chose to do HIS work. Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved.

Believe and wait 3 years to be baptized, God will have to make that call. We only have examples of immediate baptism in scripture.

Believe and wait 3 years to be baptized?  Is baptism worthless after 3 years?

Obviously, the NT example is immediate.  God's Word simply does not address someone who believes and was not immediately baptized, because it wasn't a thing.

God's Word also says that salvation is by Grace is through Faith.  I think the parsing of baptism from faith is destructive.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #142 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 13:43:01 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #143 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 13:48:56 »
Texas Conservative,
I agree that the parsing of baptism from faith is destructive.

I also think the fact that baptism was always immediate is also evidence that it was part of getting saved. When it is taught otherwise, it is rampant that people delay. That's just human nature. The apostles never had to deal with that.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #143 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 13:48:56 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #144 on: Wed Jul 25, 2018 - 00:19:33 »
Quote
Repeating what I have already said, a baptism of repentance means a baptism characterized by repentance (see  my reply#75 to you). I would suppose you don't need scriptures for that one. This is the baptism that John came preaching about. And so John came preaching, saying “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” (Mt. 1:2). While John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, he preached that they should believe on the Messiah, that is, Jesus Christ (Acts 19:4). Also, John had confessed, he baptized with water, but the coming Messiah will baptize them with the Holy Spirit (Mk. 1:7-8). This is the work that John was sent out to do, for the coming of the Lord. Nothing beyond this preparatory work could have resulted from this that John had done. For John was not sent for the forgiveness of sins, but rather, to prepare the way of the Lord (Matthew 3:3), Jesus Christ, who alone could effect the forgiveness of sin. And this the Lord will do by washing away the sins by baptizing him, not with water, but with the Holy Spirit.

You said "For John was not sent for the forgiveness of sins,"
Michael can you seriously not see this statement here is a direct misstatement of scripture. Scripture says

Mark 1:4 (KJV)
4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The scripture teach John was sent to preach forgiveness of sin. That is what his baptism was for it was the beginning of the gospel of Christ. Mark 1:1
You can not say that Johns baptism was not for the remission of sin for it is clearly recorded that it is for such.

What I said is "For John was not sent for the forgiveness of sins, but rather, to prepare the way of the Lord (Matthew 3:3)". Perhaps you did not understand what I said there. John was not sent out to forgive sins nor effect it. For the purpose that John was sent, was to prepare the way of the Lord. And that is, in the spirit and power of Elijah.

Your statement, "The scripture teach John was sent to preach forgiveness of sin." is that which seems to be a misstatement. For clearly, what Mark said is that what John preach is the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. That is different from saying that John preached forgiveness of sins. He preached "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” Consider this truth about John.

Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Mt. 17:10-13
10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

What do you know of Elijah's message? Is it not repentance towards the true God?


You said "Also, John had confessed, he baptized with water, but the coming Messiah will baptize them with the Holy Spirit "

Yes Johns baptism will wax away and the baptism in Christ name will overtake it but what does scripture teach on that?
Is the baptism with the holy spirit john foretold a dry baptism or is it what you call the Christian baptism by the way where in scripture is this told of?

Look at what is promised. John was saying that Jesus would give the indwelling spirit in which his baptism could not do because Jesus had of yet not went to the cross.

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

After the cross we read

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John's prophecy did come true Jesus in the baptism in his name is giving the indwelling spirit just as John had said would come to pass. It is the indwelling that was promised to all back when Johns was baptizing for the remission of sin pointing to this day.

Paul cleared that up in Acts 19

Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Clearly you can see that Paul says that the indwelling spirit is given in the baptism in Christ name that is what was lacking in John's that John's could not do.

Now that Paul has corrected their baptism in accordance to Acts 2:38 he then lays hands on these Ephesians so as they can build the church in Ephesus. The difference shown in the spirit with in and the spirit upon that you keep getting confused in.

The indwelling produces fruit with in you change you from inside out. The spirit upon is the spirit working through you as a sign to further the building of the church to confirm the word is of God with signs to show it is authentic

Mark 16:17-20 (KJV)
17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The baptism that John said that the Messiah will do, is with the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:7-8). This is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is a purification thing, a washing, a cleansing. That is different from the indwelling and from the empowering of the HS. The baptism with the HS is the purification of the believer of the filth of sin, of the guilt and of the bad conscience.   

You said "John was saying that Jesus would give the indwelling spirit in which his baptism could not do because Jesus had of yet not went to the cross." While it is true that apostle John spoke of those believing in Christ would receive the HS, notice what John said concerning this. It is to them that believes. And John does not even connect this to the baptism with water.

In Acts 2, Peter indeed said "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." But that does not put the receiving of the HS necessarily to be when one is baptized. As I have pointed out that it is by believing that he gets to receive the HS, we can understand here that the receiving then is in the believing in Christ, which is the subject of the repentance that John was out calling on the people to do.

In Acts 19, notice what Paul said in v.2 "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Clearly, Paul tells us of the receiving of the HS to be in the believing. What he said in vv.3-5 points to believing in Christ, so that they may receive the HS, and not that in baptism, not of the water baptism that John the baptist performed nor that by the apostles and the disciples of Christ.

You said "Now that Paul has corrected their baptism in accordance to Acts 2:38..." There was nothing to be corrected about John's baptism, nor there was something lacking in it. For John's baptism is a baptism of repentance, nothing more. The only purpose is that of repentance, which prepares the people for the coming of the Messiah, in whom they they should believe, as Paul explained in Acts 19:4.


You said  "Jesus Christ, who alone could effect the forgiveness of sin. And this the Lord will do by washing away the sins by baptizing him, not with water, but with the Holy Spirit."

Here you are correct up to the point you said not of water. It is clearly recorded in scripture that the baptism that Jesus was to baptize with is in water. It is the only one that bears his name that of Act 2:38 and in Acts 10

Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Jesus was to give the indwelling spirit that is what John was speaking of in baptize with the Holy Ghost it is promised to all who call upon the Lord through baptism in the name of Christ and scripture show that came true in Acts 2:38

What you call the dry baptism of the spirit is not what the scriptures teach you say it is. I find that nowhere but in your mind. You and I have been over this several times but you still can not see the difference in what you teach compared to what the scripture back them selves with other scripture to drive home the true teaching on this subject. To many other scriptures back Acts 2:38 and says it means just what was recorded Baptism in Christ name is for the remission of sin and the receiving of the indwelling spirit.

You said "It is clearly recorded in scripture that the baptism that Jesus was to baptize with is in water." No sir. This is what John the baptist said, that the Messiah will baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mk.1:7-8). That is too clear to not see and understand, and say that Jesus was to baptize with water.



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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #144 on: Wed Jul 25, 2018 - 00:19:33 »



Online 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #145 on: Wed Jul 25, 2018 - 06:31:58 »
Michael,
The lack of rational thought in that post is truly amazing.
Quote from: Michael
For John's baptism is a baptism of repentance, nothing more. The only purpose is that of repentance,
The purpose of John's baptism was not repentance. John's baptism was NOT for repentance. It was a baptism OF repentance. It was a baptism FOR the forgiveness of sins.
Quote from: Michael
In Acts 19, notice what Paul said in v.2 "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Clearly, Paul tells us of the receiving of the HS to be in the believing. What he said in vv.3-5 points to believing in Christ, so that they may receive the HS, and not that in baptism, not of the water baptism that John the baptist performed nor that by the apostles and the disciples of Christ.
Again the lack of rational thinking is demonstrated.  When the disciples said to Paul, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit," he didn't question their belief, he questioned their baptism.  It was clear to Paul that they believed. It was also clear that something was awry in their baptism and therefore his question was  "Then what baptism did you receive?" .  When he heard their answer he immediately corrected that mistake.  "On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."   Clearly their problem wasn't that they didn't believe, their problem was they hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Both John's baptism and baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ are for the forgiveness of sin.  The difference between the two as that in baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ the one being baptized not only receives the forgiveness of his sins, he also receives the gift of the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 25, 2018 - 06:37:07 by 4WD »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #145 on: Wed Jul 25, 2018 - 06:31:58 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #146 on: Thu Jul 26, 2018 - 08:47:38 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 - 11:20:13
No.

He and his household were baptized. And what baptism is that?
size=10pt]The one of Acts 2:38 just like all the other references which is the one of Eph. 4:5[/size]

Obviously. It was the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, which involves repentance and belief in Christ.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #147 on: Thu Jul 26, 2018 - 12:02:05 »
Which means it has a lot to do with salvation. Counter to a lot of folk’s opinion here.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #148 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 13:44:50 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Obviously. It was the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, which involves repentance and belief in Christ.
A la Acts 2:38-39.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #148 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 13:44:50 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #149 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 00:12:14 »
Michael2012,
Quote
No.

He and his household were baptized. And what baptism is that?
Since Paul would baptize the Phillipian jailer and his household for the same reason he was baptized, then to answer your question, look at the purpose for which Paul was baptized Acts 22:16.

And
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

He didn't get up and get Holy Spirit baptized, he got up and was baptized.
[/size]

Ananias said to Paul, after proclaiming to him what God had appointed of him, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Ananias there is voicing out to Paul what he ought to do now that he was chosen by God to serve Him. He impressed on Paul to go on and repent from what he was doing, that is, from persecuting the church and Christ, and to ask for forgiveness by calling on God. And indeed Paul did and he was baptized.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #150 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:31:25 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Quote
It seems to me that you are saying that he was baptized even before he came to believe. If he were baptized before he believed, then his baptism is for what?
I missed these before, so I am addressing them now.I am not saying that he was baptized even before he came to believe. I am saying that, as in Acts 19 when Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, and then asked them 'Then what baptism did you receive?', baptism was also included in the definition of the jailer and his household "having believed".
Acts 16:33-34 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. [34] And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

That's right, Paul asked about them receiving the HS when they believed. Clearly, the receiving is in the believing. What we see in the question of Paul concerning their baptism, is that, baptism involves the believing in Christ, which if they did, they should have received the HS. Now we learn that they were baptized, that of John. It was obvious to Paul that while they were baptized, the believing in the Lord Jesus Christ was not there, mentioning to them that John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. They obviously missed this one, even saying, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” So, not the baptism really, but in the believing that one gets to receive the HS.

Quote
So, can you tell me what it is you know as to why John the baptist was sent ahead of Christ to call everybody to repentance?

And can you tell me what you know what it means to repent towards God and Christ?
John was sent to prepare the way for the Lord and so he did. It wasn't required for him to reach the entire world to make such preparation. To repent toward God is make a decision to turn away from sin. What the jailer and his household learned about repentance and verbally surrendering to Jesus as Lord, they learned in verse 32, which is also part of getting saved.

That's right, John was sent to prepare the way of the Lord. But while you admit that he did just that, you haven't told me how he did that. Obviously he did that by calling everybody to repentance. He calls everyone to the baptism of repentance and saying that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

To repent towards God and Christ, more than turning away from sinful works, is to change one's heart and mind, from disbelief, to belief in God and Christ.

So, it is really about believing in God and Christ. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #151 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:39:11 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 08:38:32
I was just trying to point out to you that it is the matter of believing or faith that is really that which tells whether one is saved or is condemned.
And now you have to define what it means to believe.  Can you believe the gospel and yet reject the gospel and still be saved?  I don't think so.

Believe the gospel and yet reject it? Needless to say, that could not be.

One cannot claim to believe Christ and yet reject Christ, could he?

Now, there is a difference between faith and obedience.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #152 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:42:52 »
And now you have to define what it means to believe.  Can you believe the gospel and yet reject the gospel and still be saved?  I don't think so.


Believe the gospel and yet reject it? Needless to say, that could not be.

One cannot claim to believe Christ and yet reject Christ, could he?

Now, there is a difference between faith and obedience.
If there is a difference between faith and obedience  then why cannot one  believe but not obey?

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #153 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:44:06 »
If there is a difference between faith and obedience  then why cannot one  believe but not obey?
It's interesting that Romans at the beginning and the end speaks of 'the obedience of faith' ; 'obedience to the faith'.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #154 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:00:09 »
It's interesting that Romans at the beginning and the end speaks of 'the obedience of faith' ; 'obedience to the faith'.
Yes it does.  Which means that there is a 'lack of obedience of faith' ; a disobedience to the faith. 

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #155 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:02:39 »
Yes it does.  Which means that there is a 'lack of obedience of faith' ; a disobedience to the faith.  But then "faith" does not carry the same meaning for those two statements.
I think part of the idea of those phrases is that faith is not a meritorious work.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #156 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:11:15 »
I think part of the idea of those phrases is that faith is not a meritorious work.
Is obedience a meritorious work?

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #157 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:12:59 »
Is obedience a meritorious work?
No; it's what the Holy Spirit produces in the heart.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #158 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:20:29 »
No; it's what the Holy Spirit produces in the heart.

So you think obedience is what the Holy Spirit produces?

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Th 1:7-8).


And the Lord is going to take vengeance upon them that the Holy Spirit did not produce the obedience in their hearts?  I don't believe that at all.

Gotta Go, be back later this afternoon.

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #159 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:52:34 »
No; it's what the Holy Spirit produces in the heart.

Any soteriology requires a work of God on each individual sinner's heart before that sinner can be able to have faith in Christ, rather than the sinner having the freewill to choose, is one that actually puts the blame for the condemnation of any on God if He does not do such a work in them.

If God wants all saved, and I believe He does (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), then to the extent that it takes such a work for somebody to be saved, shouldn't God work thusly in the hearts of all?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #160 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 10:57:40 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 09:11:38
That is not quite right sir.


He is absolutely right.  Anyone with a lick of sense, understands what it means when Jesus said, "believes AND is baptized".  It means that both are included  --  Period.  Any argument to the contrary is simply a demonstration of ignorance of language.

Now if you can find any scriptural statement that says that there is no need for baptism, that would be different.  But of curse you can't.


No need for baptism? What baptism in particular? Are you referring to the baptism with water or baptism with the HS?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?
 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #161 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 11:00:52 »
Michael, yes a believer is saved because GOD forgives him IN baptism, which if biblical example means anything baptism in christ’s name was immediate. We are clothed with Christ in baptism. God does the forgiving in baptism as plenty of scripture indicates. As I have said the water is powerless, it is simply the mode God chose to do HIS work. Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved.

Believe and wait 3 years to be baptized, God will have to make that call. We only have examples of immediate baptism in scripture.


Does God forgives only in baptism?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?


Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #162 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 11:29:15 »
No need for baptism? What baptism in particular? Are you referring to the baptism with water or baptism with the HS?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?
 
The repentant thief on the cross believed and went to paradise, without being baptised.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #163 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:40:57 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
The repentant thief on the cross believed and went to paradise, without being baptised.
The thief on the cross argument has been debunked almost since ancient times. How come you are still using it? Are you familiar with ex post facto? Why would the thief on the cross be expected to fulfill a command, namely baptism "in Jesus's name", which had not yet been given at the time of his crucifixion? Only the people who were around when the command was first given, which was after Jesus resurrection, and those thereafter would be expected to follow that command. How come you don't put two and two together with the time frame?
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:43:36 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #164 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:46:32 »
Michael,
Quote
Does God forgives only in baptism?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?
The Bible says this is where it happens Acts 2:38-39, Romans 6:4-7, (repent and believe is "part" of it, not all of it) so this is what we teach.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:49:09 by e.r.m. »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #165 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:51:38 »
Michael, all I can tell you is there is NO reason to parse baptism away from salvation. Who cares what nanosecond it occurs if baptism is immediate as the Bible teaches. The first century folks would have been aghast at the modern efforts to decide if salvation occurred prerepentance, post confession, pre-baptism, post baptism or while under the water. It’s ludicrous to parse it. Salvation involves believing, it involves repentance and confession and yes it involves baptism. All inclusive of what we are instructed in the Bible as our faith response.

If someone clings relentlessly to the believe verses, I say yes belief is necessary along with the other things scripture CUMULATIVELY says is required. (If not why not?)

MILK OF THE WORD STUFF. We need to get this and move on to the meat.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:14:51 by Jaime »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #166 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:53:52 »
Jaime,
Agreed.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #167 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 12:59:10 »
faroukfarouk,The thief on the cross argument has been debunked almost since ancient times. How come you are still using it? Are you familiar with ex post facto? Why would the thief on the cross be expected to fulfill a command, namely baptism "in Jesus's name", which had not yet been given at the time of his crucifixion? Only the people who were around when the command was first given, which was after Jesus resurrection, and those thereafter would be expected to follow that command. How come you don't put two and two together with the time frame?
So are you now saying that if today a new believer were crucified by enemies of the Gospel and he died without being baptised, he wouldn't be in heaven? (I'm not sure you're suggesting that.)

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #168 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:08:02 »
What reasonable excuse would a believer have to remain unbaptized? Did that ever happen in the NT? Of course the thief doesn’t count as Erm has already shown. Immediate baptism IS the Biblical pattern, if that means anything and I submit it DOES.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #169 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:16:04 »
What reasonable excuse would a believer have to remain unbaptized? Did that ever happen in the NT? Of course the thief doesn’t count as Erm has already shown. Immediate baptism IS the Biblical pattern, if that means anything and I submit it DOES.
Oh I agree that baptism should happen, indeed; what I'm saying is that its absence in the context of a new believer who is martyred, etc. will hardly send the person to perdition!

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #170 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:27:02 »
It’s similar to the modern day hypothetical of dying in a car crash on the way to get baptized. I am leaving ALL HYPOTHETICALS IN God’s hands. All we have to go on is the writtenword. The rest is up to God. We don’t decide. I do think it is risky trying to fit hypotheticals into a doctrine and making the hypotheticals more important than they should be. I believe God would grant grace to a person killed on the way to the baptistry. He has the right to do that by the way. He just didn’t cover EVERY HYPOTHETICAL OUT THERE IN HIS WRITTEN WORD. Niw if the person had waited 10 years to get baptized, I would wonder WHY? I would say some serious error was involved in their teaching.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 16:16:27 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #171 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:29:06 »
Michael,
The lack of rational thought in that post is truly amazing.

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Quote from: Michael
For John's baptism is a baptism of repentance, nothing more. The only purpose is that of repentance,
The purpose of John's baptism was not repentance. John's baptism was NOT for repentance. It was a baptism OF repentance. It was a baptism FOR the forgiveness of sins.

It was a baptism of what? Of Repentance sir. Isn't that what I said, "John's baptism is a baptism of repentance"? You apparently are not reading well sir and only quick to say it's a lack of rational thought. Quite a character you got there sir. Now, did I say for repentance or of repentance?

Now you say that the baptism of repentance is for the forgiveness of sins. Scriptures says "John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." Your statement is different from that of scriptures. The scriptures speaks of two things that John does here. One being the baptizing performed by John and the other the preaching. Of these two, which do you say was done by John whose goal is for the remission of sins, the baptizing or the preaching of a baptism of repentance?

One must realize and understand what a baptism of repentance is, that John preached for the remission of sins. Can you tell us what is this baptism of repentance that John preached?

Quote
Quote from: Michael
In Acts 19, notice what Paul said in v.2 "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Clearly, Paul tells us of the receiving of the HS to be in the believing. What he said in vv.3-5 points to believing in Christ, so that they may receive the HS, and not that in baptism, not of the water baptism that John the baptist performed nor that by the apostles and the disciples of Christ.

Again the lack of rational thinking is demonstrated.  When the disciples said to Paul, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit," he didn't question their belief, he questioned their baptism.  It was clear to Paul that they believed. It was also clear that something was awry in their baptism and therefore his question was  "Then what baptism did you receive?" .  When he heard their answer he immediately corrected that mistake.  "On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."   Clearly their problem wasn't that they didn't believe, their problem was they hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Both John's baptism and baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ are for the forgiveness of sin.  The difference between the two as that in baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ the one being baptized not only receives the forgiveness of his sins, he also receives the gift of the Holy Spirit.


And what you say sir quickly point back at you.

The first question of Paul was "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Clearly, Paul relates the receiving of the HS to believing.

Their response to Paul was "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” They don't really know what Paul was asking them about receiving the HS.

Next thing Paul asked, “Into what then were you baptized?”, different from what you say "Then what baptism did you receive?"  Now we see that it is clear to Paul that they had been baptized, that he asked them that. Now, here Paul brought up the matter of their baptism. Learning that it was into John's baptism that they were baptized, notice what Paul said to them, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”  Paul here didn't say that John's baptism is lacking or what, but was telling them that they should believe in Jesus Christ. By that, we understand why these men had not received the HS, that is, because while they have been baptized with a baptism of repentance they understandably had not yet come to faith in Christ. And so, after hearing this from Paul that they should believe on Christ, they were baptized in the name of Christ, signifying their believing on Jesus Christ. This clearly puts the receiving of the HS in the believing, not really in the baptism. Though one's believing may well be involved in the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, this does not make the baptism per se as that by which the HS is given and received, but in the believing.

Today there are those who are baptized in the name of Christ, but don't receive the HS. These are they who do not truly believe in Christ or have been baptized knowing not that they should believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to receive the HS.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #172 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:32:28 »
Which means it has a lot to do with salvation. Counter to a lot of folk’s opinion here.

Jaime,

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #173 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:39:38 »
He is saved some nansecond after his faith response of believing, repenting, confessing, and submitting to baptism. You have been taught that baptism is only a symbol of what has happened. That is counter to scripture. Baptism in Christ’s follows believing and repentance name. We are told that upon repentance AND baptism, not repentance alone that our sins are remitted and we are conveyed the indwelling gift of the Spirit. Surely there is more hypotheticals vexing you to be included into a doctrine, but the answer is still the same.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:41:54 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #174 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:41:44 »
He is saved some nansecond after his faith response of believing, repenting, confessing, and submitting to baptism. You have been taught that baptism is only a symbol of what has happened. That is counter to scripture. Baptism in Christ’s follows believing and repentance name. We are told that upon repentance AND baptism, not repentance alone that our sins are remitted and we are conveyed the indwelling gift of the Spirit. Surely there is more hypotheticals vexing you, but the answer is still the same.
So if a new believer is martyred before being baptised, he goes to hell, in your doctrine, right?