Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 10232 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #175 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:44:33 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:39:11
Quote
4WD:
And now you have to define what it means to believe.  Can you believe the gospel and yet reject the gospel and still be saved?  I don't think so.

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Michael:
Believe the gospel and yet reject it? Needless to say, that could not be.

One cannot claim to believe Christ and yet reject Christ, could he?

Now, there is a difference between faith and obedience.
If there is a difference between faith and obedience  then why cannot one  believe but not obey?

Are you saying that there is no difference between faith and obedience?

Had you believed in Christ? I suppose you'd say yes. Now, had you not disobeyed Christ at some point in your life? I'm sure you had. But while you had, it does not mean you had not believed on Him? You did and do believe on Him, right? Only that, at some point you sinned?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #175 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:44:33 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #176 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:48:04 »
Farouk, I didn’t say that. I said that situation is in God’s hands. He didn’t address it in scripture. I make no judgements of one killed on the way to the baptistry.

Are you concurring that immediate baptism is the Biblical pattern? Is delaying justified or recommended in the teaching you have had?

Also why the endless hypotheticals? We certainly all should agree that doctrine is NOT built on hypotheticals.

It’s very similar to our founding document in our country, the Constitution. It absolutely DOES NOT address EVERY possible contingency. We do know what Is written, but those appointed to judge and interpret makes the rulings in the hypothetical contingencies that pop up. With salvation, God does. We don’t have an infinite checklist, only God handles the hypotheticals or what ifs.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:54:39 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #177 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:51:00 »
I didn’t say that. I said that situation is in God’s hands. He didn’t address it in scripture. I make no judgements of one killed on the way to the baptistry.

Are you concurring that immediate baptism is the Biblical pattern? Is delaying justified or recommended in the teaching you have had?
The c-word is part of the equation: sometimes those who ask for baptism simply don't have credibility.

What I also think is important to avoid is the idea of salvation-by-rite: this reverts to being a works-based religion (Ephesians 2.9).

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #177 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:51:00 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #178 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:56:21 »
If baptism is a rite oriented salvation, it is because of what GOD says he does in baptism, man only drops his clinched fists of resistance and humbly submits.

Read the story of Naaman’s healing. Was he healed by the waters if the Jordan or the fact he dipped 7 times as God said. Neither, God did the healing IN the mode he commanded. Same in baptism. It’s not a man originated rite.

Baptism alone does not save. It’s a total faith response, in the manner God’s inspired scripture prescribes.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:01:01 by Jaime »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #178 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:56:21 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #179 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:58:58 »
If baptism is a rite oriented salvation, it is because of what GOD says he does in baptism, man only drops his clinched fists of resistance and humbly submits.
Well, I'm sorry we must disagree about a rite-based salvation; it's works based. (Ephesians 2.9)

Faith is the key, according to my doctrine as I see it in Scripture (Hebrews 11). Being saved by a church's rite is not.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #179 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:58:58 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #180 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:02:43 »
Confessing with our lips is required. Is that works based? Muscle cells ARE involved. Of course not and neither is baptism. The only work in baptism is what GOD does. Other than that it is just getting wet.

We are baptised into CHRIST, not a church. 1Peter 3:21, Baptism is an appeal to God FOR a clean conscience. The very reason Paul was baptised in Acts 22, to wash away his sins calling upon the Lord.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:06:31 by Jaime »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #180 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:02:43 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #181 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:05:18 »
Confessing with our lips is required. Is that works based? Of course not and neither is baptism. The only work in baptism is what GOD does. Other than that it is just getting wet.

We are baptised into CHRIST, not a church.
So you are teaching baptismal regeneration. My reading of the new birth John 3 is that baptism is not mentioned. We shall have to disagree, evidently.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #182 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:08:04 »
I teach GOD regeneration IN baptism. Regeneration being the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy spirit. The water does not do the regenerating.

Did Paul not arise to be baptized to wash away his sins, congruant with 1 Peter 3:21.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 18:58:51 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #183 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:10:05 »
I teach GOD regeneration IN baptism. Regeneration being the forgiveness of sin and thengift of the Holy spirit.
Clearly what you say is baptismal regeneration. We must disagree, then.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #183 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:10:05 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #184 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:10:55 »
Michael2012,
Quote
No Sir. I don't intend to invalidate any part of the statement sir. I was just trying to point out to you that it is the matter of believing or faith that is really that which tells whether one is saved or is condemned. Would you like me to cite scriptures? Had not Jesus said in John 3:18, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
All the more reason Michael. If since belief is the precursor to baptism, and if a person is condemned already who does not believe, then what is the necessity of saying he who is not baptized is condemned? he was already condemned. Unless you register at the University and take classes, you will not get your degree. If you don't register at the University you will not get your degree. If you show up to the necessary classes without registering, it won't count.

Quote
As with e.r.m., consider studying the following:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Consider also this passage:

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Verses that only express one aspect of getting saved don't exclude others. Neither of these passages address repentance either. That was addressed at a different time.

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You asked "What is baptism doing there in the middle of a getting saved discussion in the first place?"

What else, but to be taken in connection to believing. For in baptism, one repents towards God and faith towards Christ. It is this repentance towards God and faith towards Christ that one receives forgiveness of sins. And this is why we read scriptures that says "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin".
to be taken in connection to believing

The sentence structure is different.
It words it like Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,...
It's not a 'tag along' to belief, like a hang nail. That would be more like, be baptized to show your belief, which saves you. or baptism of... -belief for the forgiveness of sin,
which puts the emphasis on belief. Jesus put the emphasis on both belief and baptism and he put baptism on the closer end to "will be saved". Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,....
The sentence doesn't support what you suggest and it doesn't explain why Jesus put baptism in the getting saved statement. The simplest and truest answer is is that it's part of getting saved.

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One would ask, would one who repents towards God and faith towards Christ, be forgiven of his sins, even when he is not yet baptized, or before he is baptized, or when he is baptized at a later time, or when there is no time to be baptized?
I defer to my and Jamie's previous answers on this question.

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And I forgot to add, Paul was saved because he repented and believed in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes they have done a fabulous job, but answering what? The fabulous thing that they can do is to listen and try to understand what Ananias said to Paul. It was an unconditional election and appointment by God of Paul. If they don't see that as the salvation of Paul, who himself confessed and considers himself as the chief of sinners, but insist that Paul was saved because he was baptized with water, then they have closed their eyes to the truth that salvation belongs to God and is the work of God and is accomplished by God.
Despite being elected by God as His chosen instrument, he was still with his sins,  last I checked, one is not saved until their sins are forgiven. This was addressed to you by others in their fabulous response, and you have not offered anyting to make that go away.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:18:39 by e.r.m. »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #185 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:12:55 »
Farouk God regenerates and he specified in scripture that HE does that in baptism. God regeneration is NOT baptismal regeneration. It’s 100% God. What are YOU saying? And more importantly WHY?

Baptismal regeneration implies it’s the water that is important and what does the regenerating. Not saying that at all. Water is soiritually inert.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:19:17 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #186 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:16:59 »
Farouk God regenerates and he specified in scripture that HE does that in baptism. God regeneration is NOT baptismal regeneration. It’s 100% God. What are YOU saying? And more importantly WHY?
In the main, Bible based evangelical Christians hold that salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9); the great passage by the Lord Jesus Himself about the new birth - regeneration - does not mention baptism, which is a symbol, a figure.

So we will have to disagree, Friend.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #187 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:21:22 »
We don’t disagree, I too fully ascribe to salvation being by grace through faith in Christ. We were talking about our scriptural faith responses, friend. We don’t have to disagree if the Bible is our guide. God is not the author of confusion, especially on milk issues.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:25:13 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #188 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:23:47 »
We don’t disagree, I too fully ascribe to salvation being by grace through faith in Christ. We were talking about our scriptural faith responses, friend. We don’t have to disagree if the Bible is our guide.
It seems we do disagree, Friend, if you mean this, above: "Farouk God regenerates and he specified in scripture that HE does that in baptism."

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #189 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:26:58 »
It's best if I moved on from this thread.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #190 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:27:14 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
In the main, Bible based evangelical Christians hold that salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9); the great passage by the Lord Jesus Himself about the new birth - regeneration - does not mention baptism, which is a symbol, a figure.
Ephesians 2.8-9 doesn't list baptism as a work and does not identify baptism as a symbol, a figure. That's the non-Bible based evangelical part. And no, 1 Peter 3:21 doesn't either.  It says Noah's water is the symbol or figure of baptism, it doesn't say baptism is a symbol or figure of anything. It has neither the words nor the sentence structure that says "baptism symbolizes something." There's nowhere in the entire New Testament that says baptism in Jesus's name's purpose is to symbolize anyting.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:40:09 by e.r.m. »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #191 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:31:12 »
So in Acts 2:38 did the 3000 not get regenerated by having their sins forgiven and getting the gift of the Holy spirit upon repentance and baptism as Peter instructed?

Some would say they were regenerated when they were pricked in their hearts with Godly sorrow for what they had done.

 Godly sorrow LEADS to repentance and repentance leads to salvation. The 3000 were regenerated by God’s hand after repentance and baptism in Christ’s name.

Let’s discuss and not just say we disagree.......friend.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:35:34 by Jaime »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #192 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:37:40 »
Why would it be best to move on Farouk. I am not afraid of being wrong. I have been many times.

Do you only evangelize people that agree with you? Me and Erm should make great fodder for a mind change.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #193 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 15:15:32 »
faroukfarouk,
Is it remotely possible that the evangelical paradigm you've bought into may not match up with scripture at some point? Have you ever seen a discrepancy (and not just in salvation. I mean any discrepancy, e.g. the nativity, the rapture being right around the corner, how they handle conflict, anything) or is evangelicalism and the Bible one and the same to you? Thank you.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 21:13:44 by e.r.m. »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #194 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 15:31:20 »
faroukfarouk,

Even if you choose not to respond, I hope you are still reading the comments. ::smile::

Regarding works, any time Paul and others say that works on our part are excluded from salvation, then it has to do with those efforts that originate in man and are an attempt to accomplish salvation by our own power. This can include works of the law of Moses, which Paul writes about with much contempt when to comes to our salvation. It can even include any good deeds and efforts with honest motives, but still have no salvific value as far as God is concerned. If He didn't command it, then it has zero value for our salvation. Ephesians 2:9 is referring to man-based efforts to earn salvation, as opposed to our being saved by God's grace working through our faith in Him.

Also, if God says to do a thing in order to be saved, then the doing of that thing is not a work, as defined and excluded by Paul. Otherwise, there would be a contradiction (for example between Mark 16:16 and Ephesians 2:9). What is a person to do when God asks him why he didn't do what he was told to do to receive God's gift of grace? Is he going to answer to God that he didn't want to be saved by works?

The Israelites had to cross the dry seabed to be saved from slavery to Egypt. Were they saved by their works, or wholly by God's grace and power? Nobody in their right mind would attribute any saving power to the obedience of the Israelites. God did all the work and paved the way for the Israelites to obey a command that would further glorify God for the salvation He had accomplished for them. Jesus did all of the work for our salvation, but He commands that we submit by faith to baptism which gives Him the glory for what He accomplished for us. Baptism rejoices in the power and grace of God, not in self.

This is the main reason I wonder about folks who try so desperately to not accept what God says about baptism. Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." He commanded this for the whole world, for every creature (person). Why not just accept it and not try to find ways to eliminate baptism from His words? Baptism did not originate in man and it is not a man-based attempt to find salvation apart from God. Jesus commanded it, and for that reason, so believe Him.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #195 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 15:37:31 »
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
         but according to his mercy he saved us,
         BY the WASHING of REGENERATION,
         and RENEWING of the Holy SPIRIT;

Washing is
g3067. loutro/n loutron, loo-tron´; from 3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), BAPTISM: — washing.
g3068. louo, loo´-o; a primary verb; to bathe (the whole person; whereas 3538 means to wet a part only, and 4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively): — wash.

Regeneration
3824.  paliggenesia, pal-ing-ghen-es-ee´-ah; from 3825 and 1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), i.e. (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specially, Messianic restoration: — regeneration.

OUR spirits are RETURNED to their ORIGINAL condition when they are RENOVATED by God.

Renewing is:
341. ajnakaino/w anakainoo, an-ak-ahee-no´-o; from 303 and a derivative of 2537; to renovate: — renew.
342. ajnakai÷nwsiß anakainosis, an-ak-ah´-ee-no-sis; from 341; renovation: — renewing.

The renewing is OF the holy spirit and not BY the holy spirit. We were born and god gave us A holy spirit because it came FROM god.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent,
       and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
       for [in order to[ the remission of sins,
       AND ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When we are baptized our UNholy spirit becomes A holy spirit or in 1 Peter 3:21 BAPTISM SAVES US because we REQUEST A good conscience, consciousness the same as A holy spirit-- ours.


Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #196 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 16:04:16 »
WE TALK A LOT ABOUT FAITH BEING ABLE TO HEAL THE SICK OR MULTIPLY OUR SEED MONEY. HOWEVER, BAPTISM IS ONE OF THOSE WAYS GOD HAS SAID:

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
       saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation.

The Red Sea is one of those PROPHETIC PATTERNS which those who mock as legalists those who obey the direct command of Jesus.

Ex. 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes,
        and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them;
        and they were sore afraid:
        and the children of Israel cried out unto the Lord.
Ex. 14:11 And they said unto Moses,
         Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness?
        wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?
Ex. 14:12 Is not this the WORD that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying,
        Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians?

              For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians,   
              than that we should die in the wilderness.

THIS IS WHAT FAITH ONLY MEANS: THEY DO NOT COME TO THE LIGHT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO EXPOSE THEMSELVES TO INESCAPABLE DEATH--they think.

MOSES PREACHED "FAITH ONLY

Ex. 14:13 And Moses said unto the people,
        Fear ye not, STAND STILL, and see the salvation OF the Lord,
        which he will shew to you to day:
        for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day,
        ye shall see them again no more for ever.
Ex. 14:14 The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

GOD RESPONDS TO FAITH ONLY WHINING:

Ex. 14:15  And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore CRIEST THOU UNTO ME?

Moses apparently wanted to HOLD AN ASSEMBLY and just wait for a spirit to move or inform them.

h6817.   tsaw-ak´; a primitive root; to shriek; (by implication) to proclaim (an assembly):—
    x at all, call together, cry (out), gather (selves) (together).

       Is. 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
              I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
       Is. 42:2 He shall not CRY, nor lift up [SING Paul's self-pleasure in Romans 15]],
             nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

THE OPERATIVE WORDS ARE READ OR SPEAK:

        Speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
Ex. 14:16 But LIFT UP THEY ROD
        and STRETCH out thine hand over the sea,
        and DIVIDE IT it: and the children of Israel
        SHALL go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #197 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 16:56:20 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
It's best if I moved on from this thread.
I hadn't seen this. I can respect that.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 17:16:08 by e.r.m. »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #198 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:27:52 »
Any soteriology requires a work of God on each individual sinner's heart before that sinner can be able to have faith in Christ, rather than the sinner having the freewill to choose, is one that actually puts the blame for the condemnation of any on God if He does not do such a work in them.

If God wants all saved, and I believe He does (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), then to the extent that it takes such a work for somebody to be saved, shouldn't God work thusly in the hearts of all?


We don't get to question what God does nor believe what we think He should and must do, as if we have the wisdom and mind of God. What we ought to do is believe what God revealed to us of Himself and of His work. One of the things He revealed of Himself is that He desire all man to be saved. But also revealed to us is that not all will be saved.

Borrowing the words of Paul:

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #199 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:37:27 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 10:57:40
No need for baptism? What baptism in particular? Are you referring to the baptism with water or baptism with the HS?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?
The repentant thief on the cross believed and went to paradise, without being baptised.

I know. And of course, you are referring to the rite of the baptism with water.

No one is forgiven of his sins without repenting towards God and faith in Christ. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #200 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:46:18 »
The thief on the cross argument has been debunked almost since ancient times. How come you are still using it? Are you familiar with ex post facto? Why would the thief on the cross be expected to fulfill a command, namely baptism "in Jesus's name", which had not yet been given at the time of his crucifixion? Only the people who were around when the command was first given, which was after Jesus resurrection, and those thereafter would be expected to follow that command. How come you don't put two and two together with the time frame?

You are right, baptism is a command, unlike repentance towards God and faith in Christ.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #201 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:49:17 »
Michael,
Quote
Quote
Does God forgives only in baptism?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?
The Bible says this is where it happens Acts 2:38-39, Romans 6:4-7, (repent and believe is "part" of it, not all of it) so this is what we teach.

What is your answer to the question then? Can you say it direct to the point?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #202 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:53:40 »
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Does God forgives only in baptism?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Michael, all I can tell you is there is NO reason to parse baptism away from salvation. Who cares what nanosecond it occurs if baptism is immediate as the Bible teaches. The first century folks would have been aghast at the modern efforts to decide if salvation occurred prerepentance, post confession, pre-baptism, post baptism or while under the water. It’s ludicrous to parse it. Salvation involves believing, it involves repentance and confession and yes it involves baptism. All inclusive of what we are instructed in the Bible as our faith response.

If someone clings relentlessly to the believe verses, I say yes belief is necessary along with the other things scripture CUMULATIVELY says is required. (If not why not?)

MILK OF THE WORD STUFF. We need to get this and move on to the meat.


So, can you tell us what is your answer to the simple question then? Can you say it direct to the point?

Will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #203 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:01:07 »
What reasonable excuse would a believer have to remain unbaptized? Did that ever happen in the NT? Of course the thief doesn’t count as Erm has already shown. Immediate baptism IS the Biblical pattern, if that means anything and I submit it DOES.

No one here I suppose is suggesting that a believer should not be baptized nor be baptized later. The point is in the question:  When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #204 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:05:40 »
You are right, baptism is a command, unlike repentance towards God and faith in Christ.
You are wrong repentance is a command just as faith is a command.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 17:30 (KJV)
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Just as the many scriptures teach one must believe but I know you already know them so no need to post them.

See you read the scriptures but do not understand what you read because those above proved your statement that repentance and faith is not a command.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #205 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:19:26 »
It’s similar to the modern day hypothetical of dying in a car crash on thenway to get naptized. I am leaving ALL HYPOTHETICALS IN god’s hands. All we have to go on is thebwritten word. The rest is upbto God. We don’t decide. I do think itnis risky trying to fit hypotheticals into a doctrine and making the hypotheticals more important than they should be. I believe God would grant grace to a person killed on the way to the baptistry. He has the right to do that by the way. He just didn’t cover EVERY HYPOTHETICAL OUT THERE IN HIS WRITTEN WORD. Niw if the person had waited 10 years to get baptized, I would wonder WHY? I would say some serious error was involved in their teaching.

So you leave the HYPOTHETICALS in God's hand. And in whose hand then do you leave the NON HYPOTHETICALS? Man's or God's?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #206 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:26:19 »
He is saved some nansecond after his faith response of believing, repenting, confessing, and submitting to baptism. You have been taught that baptism is only a symbol of what has happened. That is counter to scripture. Baptism in Christ’s follows believing and repentance name. We are told that upon repentance AND baptism, not repentance alone that our sins are remitted and we are conveyed the indwelling gift of the Spirit. Surely there is more hypotheticals vexing you to be included into a doctrine, but the answer is still the same.

Faith response of believing? Of repenting?

Repenting isn't a faith response, but is a change of mind and heart. It may be towards God or the opposite.

Believing isn't a faith response either. And you know that. I suppose I don't have to explain that.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #207 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:41:15 »
No one here I suppose is suggesting that a believer should not be baptized nor be baptized later. The point is in the question:  When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Michael let me answer your question with a question. Do believe what scriptures say? I will let the scriptures do the talking because I admittedly do not know the mind of God but only what he revealed in his word can you say the same and let the word answer your question?
The question is when is the forgiveness of sin recorded as being done. Before baptism or through baptism?

Do we agree that before the cross the coming kingdom was to be preached setting the way for the kingdom to be in place? If so we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was all recorded of the kingdom to come. In Acts we read that the kingdom has come and we read in Acts 2 of how one is to enter into the kingdom.

Peter preaches the resurrected Christ for the first time in opening the doors to the kingdom that has come. In so he answers sthe question of what one must do to enter into the kingdom

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Nothing hidden here it is clearly spelled out One must repent (command) and be baptized in Christ name (why) for the forgiveness of sin (then) you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Could not get any more clear could it?

But as we told you this is backed by more scripture it is not a stand alone.

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

See this backs up Acts 2:38 saying the same the baptism in Christ name is for the forgiveness of sin and how one calls on the name of the Lord.

That is not the only one that backs it up look at Romans 6

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You see it clearly states that it is in the baptism in Christ name that we are transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ the new birth.

Romans 6:16-18 (KJV)
16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You see Paul says that it was in the baptism in Christ name that the transformation took place. He backs that in other letters to the church this is not a stand alone scripture but has backing from others.

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

See again Paul says that it was in the baptism in Christ name where one has put on Christ backing the above scriptures.

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Again Paul testifying that in baptism ones sin are forgiven and the new birth take place.

How many more times does one need to be told. The bible has answered your question for you will you take it for its word or do you want to debate the scriptures that gives the only recorded answer you are seeking. We can not go above or beyond what is recorded. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #208 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:50:43 »
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John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Consider also this passage:

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Verses that only express one aspect of getting saved don't exclude others. Neither of these passages address repentance either. That was addressed at a different time.


And what made you think that these verses are lacking?

Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #209 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:05:35 »
Michael, repenting is most certainly a faith response just as confessing with our lips and baptism.

In the first century all faith responses were immediate per scripture. The modern idea of delaying baptism is not modeled in scripture.

We are told in scripture what happens with the non-hypotheticals. What happens in the hypotheticals is up to God. His inspired scripture did not address every hypothetical. We know from scripture one is saved if he believe and is baptized. We know that an unbeliever is condemned. Scripture does not address an unbaptized believer. It would not have been contemplated in the first century.

Baptism is not a “rite” invented by man. God chose it as a meaningful faith response just as he did repentance, and confessing with our lips.

And remember, there is no reason to look for a single verse to include all aspects of salvation. We MUST take all scripture cumultively, which is why we were given scripture. The believe verses do not trump all other salvation verses. The repent verses do not trump all other salvation verses, etc. if all salvation verses don’t apply, then I see no basis for this discussion or the New Testament as a whole for that matter.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:23:48 by Jaime »