Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 10251 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #210 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:35:02 »
So you leave the HYPOTHETICALS in God's hand. And in whose hand then do you leave the NON HYPOTHETICALS? Man's or God's?

God of course saves the Non Hypotheticals - by his prescribed way in scripture. We can read what he prescribed. He didn't address the Hypotheticals in scripture as I have said, which is why their fate is up to Him. A prime example of an age old hypothetical is the quadriplegic stranded in middle of the Sahara Desert. Not addressed in scripture, therefore up to God and his will.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #210 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:35:02 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #211 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:45:53 »

Verses that only express one aspect of getting saved don't exclude others. Neither of these passages address repentance either. That was addressed at a different time.



And what made you think that these verses are lacking?

Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there. 

Michael I beg to differ on your statement that those passages does not speak of baptism  if you open your eyes they do just as they speak of repentance as you said.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

How was Jesus lifted up? Isn't it a direct reference to the cross, and where did Paul say we meet Jesus at the cross? Hint look at Romans  it is in the baptism in Christ name where we are buried with Christ and rise new in Christ. The born again experience.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here again How did God give his son to redeem man was it not the cross that we have already covered above?

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Again it can not be with out the cross and we have answered this with scripture.
Michael I beg to differ on your statement that those passages does not speak of baptism  if you open your eyes they do just as they speak of repentance as you said.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 11:48:30 by yogi bear »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #212 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 15:06:07 »
Michael2012,
Quote
And what made you think that these verses are lacking?
Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there.
Eye of the beholder, huh? Isn't that convenient? Sorry, but the written word carries more weight than inferences. John 12:47-50, 2 Peter 1:20-21.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 16:39:47 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #212 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 15:06:07 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #213 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 19:47:30 »
Michael2012,
Quote
What is your answer to the question then? Can you say it direct to the point?
My answer to the question is that the Bible doesn't say when the precise moment is, down to the second, just that it happens then. The same would apply for any other alleged method of getting saved. The best description I've ever heard is that salvation ultimately occurs in the mind of God, because He's the one who forgives us. So to know when this precisely happens in the mind of God is beyond our knowledge.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 20:39:19 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #213 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 19:47:30 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #214 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:07:23 »
Michael2012,My answer to the question is that the Bible doesn't say when the precise moment is, down to the second, just that it happens then. The same would apply for any other alleged method of getting saved. The best description I've ever heard is that salvation ultimately occurs in the mind of God, because He's the one who forgives us. So to know when this precisely happens in the mind of God is beyond our knowledge.

This is an interesting answer and true to an extent. I like it cause it is safe and keeps down the attack on ones belief. I think that it leaves to much room that the bible makes more clear than what we want to accept. This leaves it open for the argument of it can be when one believes only and everything else is just a faith response from the salvation by faith only.

It is true that the bible does not come out and say that salvation happened at this precise moment but it does make it a little more clear as to when it appears to have happened if one will take the bible for its word. Paul narrowed it down more than we are willing to do in his letter to the Romans. See Romans chapter six where Paul teaches when the new birth happened. He goes in detail letting one know just when one is transformed from dead to sin to alive in Christ (the born again new birth). That is as close to finding the answer to such a question as is recorded. He backed it with Colossians 2. I feel the bible does answer this question we just don't like the answer.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #214 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:07:23 »



Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #215 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:17:03 »
Another way of putting it would be:

What is the person relying on?

The work of Christ at the Cross, by faith?

or the application of a rite?

(They are deeply distinct.)

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #215 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:17:03 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #216 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:18:12 »
yogi bear,
Thank you.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #217 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:29:00 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
Another way of putting it would be:

What is the person relying on?

The work of Christ at the Cross, by faith?

or the application of a rite?

(They are deeply distinct.
Welcome back Farouk. Relying on the work of Christ at the cross, by faith is evangelical vocabulary. And we can't use one's belief systems rhetoric as evidence. We must come forward with scripture. With regard to getting saved, no one in the Bible referred to relying on Jesus work on the cross as a method of getting saved. They spoke about Jesus on the cross dying for our sins, they did not refer to the method entitled "I rely on Jesus on the cross for my salvation." Nor in the Bible, do they ever refer to baptism in Jesus's name as a rite. That is again evangelical vocabulary. If we do indeed rely on Jesus by faith, we also rely on everything he said about getting saved, "including" his sacrifice, and including the response he expects from us.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #218 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:34:52 »
faroukfarouk,Welcome back Farouk. Relying on the work of Christ at the cross, by faith is evangelical vocabulary. And we can't use one's belief systems rhetoric as evidence. We must come forward with scripture. With regard to getting saved, no one in the Bible referred to relying on Jesus work on the cross as a method of getting saved. They spoke about Jesus on the cross dying for our sins, they did not refer to the method entitled "I rely on Jesus on the cross for my salvation." Nor in the Bible, do they ever refer to baptism in Jesus's name as a rite. That is again evangelical vocabulary. If we do indeed rely on Jesus by faith, we also rely on everything he said about getting saved, "including" his sacrifice, and including the response he expects from us.
I'm afraid I can't relate to the way you are using terminology. Some of us use other languages as well in presenting the faith, and to deny the truth content of paraphrased Scripture verses in preaching - as so many preachers do - especially when expressing it in other languages, is not something I am comfortable with, sorry. I don't see baptismal regeneration - or some linguistically fluid form of it - in Scripture, in any case. So I think we would only go round and round in circles on this one.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #218 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:34:52 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #219 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:40:57 »
farouk, Please explain what Paul is saying in Romans 6 if he is not saying that in the baptism of Christ the new birth happens? Is he not saying it is there that one dead in sin becomes alive in Christ ? Is that not the message he is presenting through out the whole chapter 6 in his letter to the Romans? If not then please enlighten me to just what it is he is saying.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #220 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:47:17 »
farouk, Please explain what Paul is saying in Romans 6 if he is not saying that in the baptism of Christ the new birth happens? Is he not saying it is there that one dead in sin becomes alive in Christ ? Is that not the message he is presenting through out the whole chapter 6 in his letter to the Romans? If not then please enlighten me to just what it is he is saying.
I understand baptism in Romans 6 to be the symbolism of trusting by faith in the reality of the work of Christ that saves the believer. I don't define baptism as solely and uniquely producing the faith requirement in the sight of God.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #221 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:47:24 »
He not only told that to the Romans he also repeated it to the Colossians see here

Colossians 2:10-13 (KJV)
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How much more clear does it have to be said to understand that God transforms one from dead in sin to alive in Christ through the baptism in Christ name.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #222 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:49:38 »
I understand baptism in Romans 6 to be the symbolism of trusting by faith in the reality of the work of Christ that saves the believer. I don't define baptism as solely and uniquely producing the faith requirement in the sight of God.
I realize that is your understanding but it is not what is recorded it is recorded that it is a reality work that God is doing through the baptism it just does not read as you say but what God is doing.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #223 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:54:42 »
He not only told that to the Romans he also repeated it to the Colossians see here

Colossians 2:10-13 (KJV)
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How much more clear does it have to be said to understand that God transforms one from dead in sin to alive in Christ through the baptism in Christ name.

Going right back to the experience of the church at Pentecost onwards, in 1 Corinthians 12.13 Paul uses the term to refer to the work of the Holy Spirit, not to water, in the new birth.:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body".

In Romans 2.29 Paul further uses the term circumcision - as he does in Colossians - to refer to the work of repentance by the Spirit working in the heart, and he does not even mention baptism (which one would have thought that he would have done if he really were teaching that it's water baptism that regeneration supposedly happens).

I don't think we are going to agree on this.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #224 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 21:56:40 »
I realize that is your understanding but it is not what is recorded it is recorded that it is a reality work that God is doing through the baptism it just does not read as you say but what God is doing.
Are you from a Church of Christ background, maybe? or similar.

For myself, I am independent undenominational.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #225 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 22:02:32 »
Yes but lets look at what Paul says about it. He already said that in baptism in Christ name one is transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ that is his whole point in Romans 6. I see you think it does not mean that the new birth happens then but Paul says it is then that it happens read on down to verse 17

Romans 6:17-18 (KJV)
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

  That form of doctrine he is talking about in this context is the baptism in Christ name just as this whole chapter deals with and he echoes it to the Colssians. It is recorded for us to see what we do with the recorded word is up to us.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #226 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 22:03:52 »
Are you from a Church of Christ background, maybe? or similar.

For myself, I am independent undenominational.
Yes I am but that has no bearing on what is recorded in scripture if I am misguide please show me my error in reading these verses.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #227 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 22:07:45 »
Yes but lets look at what Paul says about it. He already said that in baptism in Christ name one is transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ that is his whole point in Romans 6. I see you think it does not mean that the new birth happens then but Paul says it is then that it happens read on down to verse 17

Romans 6:17-18 (KJV)
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

  That form of doctrine he is talking about in this context is the baptism in Christ name just as this whole chapter deals with and he echoes it to the Colssians. It is recorded for us to see what we do with the recorded word is up to us.
I don't see that 'obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto', which you quote, refers uniquely to water baptism. Right at the beginning of Romans and right at the end again, Paul uses similar phrases: 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith' and does not even mention baptism (which one would have though he would have done if he really were teaching that water baptism regenerates).

Like I suggestion, I don't think we are going to agree on this.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #228 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 22:20:43 »
context my friend what is the context of Romans 6??

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #229 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 22:26:25 »
context my friend what is the context of Romans 6??
I don't see even from Romans 6 that 'obedience from the heart' must refer only and essentially to water baptism. We are not going to agree on this, I don't think.

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #230 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 23:23:39 »
Going right back to the experience of the church at Pentecost onwards, in 1 Corinthians 12.13 Paul uses the term to refer to the work of the Holy Spirit, not to water, in the new birth.:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body".

In Romans 2.29 Paul further uses the term circumcision - as he does in Colossians - to refer to the work of repentance by the Spirit working in the heart, and he does not even mention baptism (which one would have thought that he would have done if he really were teaching that it's water baptism that regeneration supposedly happens).

I don't think we are going to agree on this.

It might help us all to remember that the word baptism is a transliteration of a Greek word that simply means immersion. The word is extremely common in the Greek language and it can refer to all sorts of stuff, like the sinking of a ship and the immersion of a cloth into a liquid dye. It can also have symbolic meanings, such as when Jesus spoke of a baptism, an immersion, He has to undergo, referring to His being immersed in sufferings leading up to the cross.

I mention this only because in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul was simply letting the church in Corinth know that the Spirit immersed them into the body of Christ, that the Spirit placed them in the body. The transliterated word baptized is not at all referring to the same thing as what Paul is talking about in Romans 6 or Colossians 2. It would be a grave error of exegesis to make the word baptism mean the same thing and have the same application across its different uses in different contexts. In other words, if it means water immersion in one context, it would be a mistake to make it mean water immersion everywhere else, or if it means Holy Spirit immersion in one context, then it would be a mistake to make it mean the same everywhere else.

What I am saying is that to reject the proposed meaning of baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 because of how the same word is used in 1 Corinthians 13 is a mistake. I have even seen people try to make Jesus' use of immersion when talking about His sufferings be the main meaning of baptism in Romans 6, which is a seriously misguided view.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #231 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 23:27:06 »
It might help us all to remember that the word baptism is a transliteration of a Greek word that simply means immersion. The word is extremely common in the Greek language and it can refer to all sorts of stuff, like the sinking of a ship and the immersion of a cloth into a liquid dye. It can also have symbolic meanings, such as when Jesus spoke of a baptism, an immersion, He has to undergo, referring to His being immersed in sufferings leading up to the cross.

I mention this only because in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul was simply letting the church in Corinth know that the Spirit immersed them into the body of Christ, that the Spirit placed them in the body. The transliterated word baptized is not at all referring to the same thing as what Paul is talking about in Romans 6 or Colossians 2. It would be a grave error of exegesis to make the word baptism mean the same thing and have the same application across its different uses in different contexts. In other words, if it means water immersion in one context, it would be a mistake to make it mean water immersion everywhere else, or if it means Holy Spirit immersion in one context, then it would be a mistake to make it mean the same everywhere else.

What I am saying is that to reject the proposed meaning of baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 because of how the same word is used in 1 Corinthians 13 is a mistake. I have even seen people try to make Jesus' use of immersion when talking about His sufferings be the main meaning of baptism in Romans 6, which is a seriously misguided view.
But notwithstanding your comments, it's difficult for me to see that 'obedience from the heart' in Romans 6 refers only and solely to water baptism.

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #232 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 23:42:53 »
But notwithstanding your comments, it's difficult for me to see that 'obedience from the heart' in Romans 6 refers only and solely to water baptism.

I believe immersion is included, but, like you, I don't believe it is the exclusive meaning of that phrase. Rather, that heart obedience is the giving of ones self fully to Christ so as to be set free from sin and become His slave. This includes repentance from evil works and the commitment to live for Him in prayerfulness and service to others.

I believe it has to include immersion because "obedience from the heart" (verse 17) results in the same thing that immersion results in, according to verses 6, 11, and 18.


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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #233 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 23:46:18 »
I believe immersion is included, but, like you, I don't believe it is the exclusive meaning of that phrase. Rather, that heart obedience is the giving of ones self fully to Christ so as to be set free from sin and become His slave. This includes repentance from evil works and the commitment to live for Him in prayerfulness and service to others.

I believe it has to include immersion because "obedience from the heart" (verse 17) results in the same thing that immersion results in, according to verses 6, 11, and 18.
Read in its entirety, I don't see the passage as teaching regeneration from water baptism.

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #234 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:02:34 »
In Romans 6 Paul starts addressing a point he made at the end of chapter 5, saying that where sin increased, grace abounded all the more. Since some people might have the idea that they can choose to continue in sin so that God's grace may abound all the more, Paul saw the need to put a stop to that kind of faulty reasoning. Paul said, "No way!" Now why can we not do that? Paul said it is because we have died to sin. Simply put, if we purposefully died to sin, we cannot then purposefully live in it any longer.

How we died to sin is the point of these early verses chapter 6. Skip to verse 7. Paul says that he who has died is freed from sin. So, whatever Paul says is how we died to sin is the same thing as saying how we were freed from sin. Being freed from sin is salvation. In verse 8 he describes it as having died with Christ so as to live with Him. How can this not be talking about salvation from sin and being made alive in Christ? Of course Paul is describing exactly that.

Here are a few questions:
In verse 4, how can a person be said to be walking in newness of live, or in a new life, if he has not been crucified together with Christ in immersion? As I read it, the new life is one where I am freed from sin, no longer its slave. In that case, the old life prior to immersion is where I am still dead in my sins; I am not yet saved.

In verses 5 and 6, how is the old self, the old man, crucified with Christ? I read it as through being immersed into Christ's death. I cannot expect to believe I am walking in a new life, freed from sin, if my old self has not been crucified together with Christ. In addition, Paul says that is how the body of sin is done away with so that we are no longer slaves to sin.

The honest question at this point would be, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

If I want to know, 1) how I am to be immersed into Christ Jesus and into His death, 2) how I am to be buried together with Him through immersion, and thus 3) how I am to be united with Him in the likeness of His death and 4) how my old self is to be crucified together with Him, then that honest question has to be answered. That immersion is the difference between still being a slave to sin and being set free and walking in a new life.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #235 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:05:31 »
In Romans 6 Paul starts addressing a point he made at the end of chapter 5, saying that where sin increased, grace abounded all the more. Since some people might have the idea that they can choose to continue in sin so that God's grace may abound all the more, Paul saw the need to put a stop to that kind of faulty reasoning. Paul said, "No way!" Now why can we not do that? Paul said it is because we have died to sin. Simply put, if we purposefully died to sin, we cannot then purposefully live in it any longer.

How we died to sin is the point of these early verses chapter 6. Skip to verse 7. Paul says that he who has died is freed from sin. So, whatever Paul says is how we died to sin is the same thing as saying how we were freed from sin. Being freed from sin is salvation. In verse 8 he describes it as having died with Christ so as to live with Him. How can this not be talking about salvation from sin and being made alive in Christ? Of course Paul is describing exactly that.

Here are a few questions:
In verse 4, how can a person be said to be walking in newness of live, or in a new life, if he has not been crucified together with Christ in immersion? As I read it, the new life is one where I am freed from sin, no longer its slave. In that case, the old life prior to immersion is where I am still dead in my sins; I am not yet saved.

In verses 5 and 6, how is the old self, the old man, crucified with Christ? I read it as through being immersed into Christ's death. I cannot expect to believe I am walking in a new life, freed from sin, if my old self has not been crucified together with Christ. In addition, Paul says that is how the body of sin is done away with so that we are no longer slaves to sin.

The honest question at this point would be, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

If I want to know, 1) how I am to be immersed into Christ Jesus and into His death, 2) how I am to be buried together with Him through immersion, and thus 3) how I am to be united with Him in the likeness of His death and 4) how my old self is to be crucified together with Him, then that honest question has to be answered. That immersion is the difference between still being a slave to sin and being set free and walking in a new life.
Put it this way, then: I don't see how, reading the passage in its entirety, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, regeneration is supposedly from water immersion.

Nor would most evangelical Bible readers.

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #236 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:11:14 »
Put it this way, then: I don't see how, reading the passage in its entirety, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, regeneration is supposedly from water immersion.

Nor would most evangelical Bible readers.

I did ask the question, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

I know what believe it doesn't mean, but that doesn't answer the question. Oh, and the question is here for everybody. ::smile::

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #237 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:16:46 »
I did ask the question, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

I know what believe it doesn't mean, but that doesn't answer the question. Oh, and the question is here for everybody. ::smile::
If it means, by what power does one rely on walking in newness of life? how am I united with Christ? it is by faith through the Spirit, and according to my reading this cannot be by mere water immersion, which is a symbol.

Most evangelical Bible believers would agree also.

Where the Lord Jesus said in John 3: "Ye must be born again", it is hard to see that He supposedly meant, "Get baptised and you will be regenerated".
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:19:21 by faroukfarouk »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #238 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 00:52:50 »
Farouk,
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I understand baptism in Romans 6 to be the symbolism of trusting by faith in the reality of the work of Christ that saves the believer.
I don't understand. Are you saying that Romans 6 is water baptism symbolizing other stuff? Or are you saying that the use of the word baptism is symbolic, and not actual baptism?

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I don't define baptism as solely and uniquely producing the faith requirement in the sight of God.
Farouk, I'm sorry, this is a novice evengelical argument. This is a straw man argument, debunking something that no one has ever proposed. I don't know why you're making this argument when no one ever said that baptism produces faith. And yet, we've heard this argument before. It's novice.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 01:32:59 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #239 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 01:07:31 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
I'm afraid I can't relate to the way you are using terminology. Some of us use other languages as well in presenting the faith, and to deny the truth content of paraphrased Scripture verses in preaching - as so many preachers do - especially when expressing it in other languages, is not something I am comfortable with, sorry.
I've used other languages as well in presenting the faith. The issue here is not denying truth content in paraphrased scriptures. The issue here is denying falsehood content in additions made to scripture. Referring to baptism in Jesus's name as a rite is not paraphrasing, it is adding an evangelical concept and a mindset to the Bible that did not exist at the time. It's inserting an evangelical way of thinking and paradigm into first century Christianity, where does it not belong. We rely on God and His word in baptism. If you are to try to debunk whatever we say, which is completely your right, the only weapons you have are scriptures. Evangelical catchphrases don't qualify.

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I don't see baptismal regeneration - or some linguistically fluid form of it - in Scripture, in any case. So I think we would only go round and round in circles on this one.
This is another strawman argument. As others have said, we see God regeneration at baptism, not baptismal regeneration. You can see this in Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. No linguistically fluid form of it necessary, just the plain text of scripture.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 01:32:06 by e.r.m. »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #240 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 01:32:28 »
we see God regeneration at baptism, not baptismal regeneration.

Most Bible based Christians - whether called evangelical or by whatever name - would probably find the claim of distinction between these terms 'God regeneration at baptism' and 'baptismal regeneration' confusing.

I find both concepts - to my humble mind indicating much the same thing - hard to grasp in the light of the many NT passages about faith in the Lord Jesus where water immersion is not even mentioned.

I don't think we are going to agree here.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #241 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 01:55:34 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
Most Bible based Christians - whether called evangelical or by whatever name - would probably find the claim of distinction between these terms 'God regeneration at baptism' and 'baptismal regeneration' confusing.
Reformers shouldn't have come up with the phrase baptismal regeneration in the first place, and evangelicals shouldn't be using it, it's part of the confusion. Let's scrap the phrase regeneration altogether and speak in plain english. Water does not impart forgiveness, water is an inanimate object. Only God imparts forgiveness, and he does so when a person repents of his/her sins, verbally accepts Jesus as Lord, and is baptized in his name (which is in water).

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I find both concepts - to my humble mind indicating much the same thing - hard to grasp in the light of the many NT passages about faith in the Lord Jesus where water immersion is not even mentioned.

I don't think we are going to agree here.
Proportion and preponderance is an evangelical argument, but not a valid one. If in the Bible it says it only once, then it is valid, in this case forgiveness/salvation at baptism is stated multiple times. The amount of times faith appears, without mentioning baptism, carries no weight at all. It's there, and that's all that counts.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 02:00:39 by e.r.m. »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #242 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 02:00:46 »
faroukfarouk,Reformers shouldn't have come up with the phrase baptismal regeneration in the first place, and evangelicals shouldn't be using it, it's part of the confusion. Let's scrap the phrase regeneration altogether and speak in plain english. Water does not impart forgiveness, water is an inanimate object. Only God imparts forgiveness, and he does so when a person accept Jesus as Lord, repent of his sins, and is baptized in his name (which is in water).
Proportion and preponderance is an evangelical argument, but not a valid one. If in the Bible it says it only once, then it is valid, in this case forgiveness/salvation at baptism is stated multiple times. The amount of times faith appears, without mentioning baptism, carries no weight at all. It's there, and that's all that counts.

Well, frankly I can't see that the meaning of John 3.16 is really supposedly as follows:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever [[is baptised]] should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Not would most Bible believing Christians.

I just don't get it.

We are not going to agree on this, it would seem.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #243 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 05:50:24 »
Think the whole NT cumulatively and you WILL get it as God intended it to be gotten. One verse here or there doesn’t do it, or a whole lot of negating is going on. And I think we both know the Bible does not contradict itself if taken as a whole one precept stacked upon another and not shooting for a single proof text bonanza. But as you say, I doubt we will agree on that.

A preponderance of evangelical Christians have perverted the original gospel by parsing baptism out of salvation. Yes it is the majority view, but in error. This was not done or contemplated by first century Chriatians as evidenced in scripture. I prefer leaning on Biblical patterns. They were presented to us for a purpose. The longer this error persists the more pervasive it gets and plain scripture becomes a head scratching mystery.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 06:29:01 by Jaime »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #244 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 06:21:23 »
I think I had better back out of this discussion, anyway.

 

     
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