Christian Forums and Message Board

Verses that only express one aspect of getting saved don't exclude others. Neither of these passages address repentance either. That was addressed at a different time.


And what made you think that these verses are lacking?

Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there. 

What is your answer to the question then? Can you say it direct to the point?

Another way of putting it would be:

What is the person relying on?

The work of Christ at the Cross, by faith?

or the application of a rite?

(They are deeply distinct.

He not only told that to the Romans he also repeated it to the Colossians see here

Colossians 2:10-13 (KJV)
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How much more clear does it have to be said to understand that God transforms one from dead in sin to alive in Christ through the baptism in Christ name.

Yes but lets look at what Paul says about it. He already said that in baptism in Christ name one is transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ that is his whole point in Romans 6. I see you think it does not mean that the new birth happens then but Paul says it is then that it happens read on down to verse 17

Romans 6:17-18 (KJV)
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

  That form of doctrine he is talking about in this context is the baptism in Christ name just as this whole chapter deals with and he echoes it to the Colssians. It is recorded for us to see what we do with the recorded word is up to us.

context my friend what is the context of Romans 6??

It might help us all to remember that the word baptism is a transliteration of a Greek word that simply means immersion. The word is extremely common in the Greek language and it can refer to all sorts of stuff, like the sinking of a ship and the immersion of a cloth into a liquid dye. It can also have symbolic meanings, such as when Jesus spoke of a baptism, an immersion, He has to undergo, referring to His being immersed in sufferings leading up to the cross.

I mention this only because in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul was simply letting the church in Corinth know that the Spirit immersed them into the body of Christ, that the Spirit placed them in the body. The transliterated word baptized is not at all referring to the same thing as what Paul is talking about in Romans 6 or Colossians 2. It would be a grave error of exegesis to make the word baptism mean the same thing and have the same application across its different uses in different contexts. In other words, if it means water immersion in one context, it would be a mistake to make it mean water immersion everywhere else, or if it means Holy Spirit immersion in one context, then it would be a mistake to make it mean the same everywhere else.

What I am saying is that to reject the proposed meaning of baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 because of how the same word is used in 1 Corinthians 13 is a mistake. I have even seen people try to make Jesus' use of immersion when talking about His sufferings be the main meaning of baptism in Romans 6, which is a seriously misguided view.

I believe immersion is included, but, like you, I don't believe it is the exclusive meaning of that phrase. Rather, that heart obedience is the giving of ones self fully to Christ so as to be set free from sin and become His slave. This includes repentance from evil works and the commitment to live for Him in prayerfulness and service to others.

I believe it has to include immersion because "obedience from the heart" (verse 17) results in the same thing that immersion results in, according to verses 6, 11, and 18.

In Romans 6 Paul starts addressing a point he made at the end of chapter 5, saying that where sin increased, grace abounded all the more. Since some people might have the idea that they can choose to continue in sin so that God's grace may abound all the more, Paul saw the need to put a stop to that kind of faulty reasoning. Paul said, "No way!" Now why can we not do that? Paul said it is because we have died to sin. Simply put, if we purposefully died to sin, we cannot then purposefully live in it any longer.

How we died to sin is the point of these early verses chapter 6. Skip to verse 7. Paul says that he who has died is freed from sin. So, whatever Paul says is how we died to sin is the same thing as saying how we were freed from sin. Being freed from sin is salvation. In verse 8 he describes it as having died with Christ so as to live with Him. How can this not be talking about salvation from sin and being made alive in Christ? Of course Paul is describing exactly that.

Here are a few questions:
In verse 4, how can a person be said to be walking in newness of live, or in a new life, if he has not been crucified together with Christ in immersion? As I read it, the new life is one where I am freed from sin, no longer its slave. In that case, the old life prior to immersion is where I am still dead in my sins; I am not yet saved.

In verses 5 and 6, how is the old self, the old man, crucified with Christ? I read it as through being immersed into Christ's death. I cannot expect to believe I am walking in a new life, freed from sin, if my old self has not been crucified together with Christ. In addition, Paul says that is how the body of sin is done away with so that we are no longer slaves to sin.

The honest question at this point would be, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

If I want to know, 1) how I am to be immersed into Christ Jesus and into His death, 2) how I am to be buried together with Him through immersion, and thus 3) how I am to be united with Him in the likeness of His death and 4) how my old self is to be crucified together with Him, then that honest question has to be answered. That immersion is the difference between still being a slave to sin and being set free and walking in a new life.

I did ask the question, "What does immersion mean in this context?"

I know what believe it doesn't mean, but that doesn't answer the question. Oh, and the question is here for everybody.

I'm afraid I can't relate to the way you are using terminology. Some of us use other languages as well in presenting the faith, and to deny the truth content of paraphrased Scripture verses in preaching - as so many preachers do - especially when expressing it in other languages, is not something I am comfortable with, sorry.

I don't see baptismal regeneration - or some linguistically fluid form of it - in Scripture, in any case. So I think we would only go round and round in circles on this one.

Most Bible based Christians - whether called evangelical or by whatever name - would probably find the claim of distinction between these terms 'God regeneration at baptism' and 'baptismal regeneration' confusing.

I find both concepts - to my humble mind indicating much the same thing - hard to grasp in the light of the many NT passages about faith in the Lord Jesus where water immersion is not even mentioned.

I don't think we are going to agree here.