Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 10260 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #245 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 06:29:28 »
Are ya IN or OUT? I enjoy your input. Is debate the problem? Everyone gives it their best shot. I have changed my mind on some things here over the years? Are you open to the possibility of seeing scripture differently than you have in years or decades.

Coming from a very conservative Church of Christ congregation as a young man to now a more progressive congregation and engaging others here, I HAVE changed my mind on some things. Who knows other things may be seen differently by me as I interact with others here. If I wasn’t open to that I would leave this forum to keep from getting doctrinely polluted.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 06:37:45 by Jaime »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #245 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 06:29:28 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #246 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 07:12:29 »
Most Bible based Christians - whether called evangelical or by whatever name - would probably find the claim of distinction between these terms 'God regeneration at baptism' and 'baptismal regeneration' confusing.
Baptismal regeneration is a concept that grew primarily, I believe, out of teachings of the Catholic Church; that teaching was that baptism as a sacrament was the cause or the basis for obtaining regeneration  That is, the physical act of baptism is the mechanism producing regeneration.  That is a false teaching.  Baptism is not the means for obtaining forgiveness of sin, but it is the occasion when forgiveness of sin is received. That baptism is the occasion when forgiveness of sin is received is a consistent concept presented throughout the NT.  That was the case even with the baptism of John the Baptist.  From Pentecost on, baptism in Jesus' name was established as the occasion not only for receiving the forgiveness of sin but for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as well.  I would argue that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit.  And that also is a consistent concept presented throughout the NT.  The forgiveness of sin together with receiving the gift [the indwelling] of the Holy Spirit constitutes the new birth, or what is typically referred to as regeneration, the making of a new man or a new creation.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #247 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 07:53:01 »
Quote from: 4WD
Baptismal regeneration is a concept that grew primarily, I believe, out of teachings of the Catholic Church; that teaching was that baptism as a sacrament was the cause or the basis for obtaining regeneration  That is, the physical act of baptism is the mechanism producing regeneration.  That is a false teaching.  Baptism is not the means for obtaining forgiveness of sin, but it is the occasion when forgiveness of sin is received. That baptism is the occasion when forgiveness of sin is received is a consistent concept presented throughout the NT.  That was the case even with the baptism of John the Baptist.  From Pentecost on, baptism in Jesus' name was established as the occasion not only for receiving the forgiveness of sin but for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as well.  I would argue that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit.  And that also is a consistent concept presented throughout the NT.  The forgiveness of sin together with receiving the gift [the indwelling] of the Holy Spirit constitutes the new birth, or what is typically referred to as regeneration, the making of a new man or a new creation.

Yep.  And it is worth noting that baptism is not a work a person does, but rather a submitting to something God ordained be performed by another on the one wishing to be forgiven and become a child of God.  Aside from the middle voice, used once in Paul's case, I believe you will find the passive used when baptism is spoken of.  Just as a person does not bury himself after a funeral, the convert is buried by another in baptism.  If one is not buried with Christ in baptism he cannot be resurrected with Christ.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:  knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:  knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:3-11

Notice the conditional "if's".  A co-resurrection is conditioned upon being co-buried with Christ in baptism (seems obvious).  This is the moment when the believer has the power and glory of God applied to him to work a resurrection to a new life. It is hard to imagine how much more plain it would have to be made that baptism is when a sinner is joined to the redemptive death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  We become joined to him, and all the punishment of sin (he became sin for us), and power of God applied to Christ in his resurrection is applied to the penitent believer so that he now has buried the old man of sin and has the promise of the same powerful resurrection of Christ unto a glorious life. Despite this crystal clear passage, some still maintain that one can have that life without being co-buried with Christ and then co-resurrected with him.  No other moment is ascribed this attachment to Christ.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #247 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 07:53:01 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #248 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:30:16 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
Well, frankly I can't see that the meaning of John 3.16 is really supposedly as follows:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever [[is baptised]] should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Not would most Bible believing Christians.

I just don't get it.
With all due respect, it's not hard to get. Before John 3:16, Jesus already covered baptism earlier in the chapter John 3:3-5. There is no actual requirement that baptism has to be in every salvation scripture, the only requirement is that it's there and it is. It seems to me that the difficulty you're having is due to conditioning of the evangelical variety. Without such conditioning a bible-believing person wouldn't have a problem with this.

Quote
We are not going to agree on this, it would seem.
I remember some of other evangelicals who when faced with an argument, tend to say "It's time to end the discussion", not because they just didn't think we'd agree, because they just didn't want to answer the argument. Would you care to address what we've said before you leave? Either the fact that be baptism salvation verse requirement has been met, or Jamie's argument that we are supposed to take scriptures cumulatively?
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:46:57 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #248 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:30:16 »
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Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #249 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:32:29 »
faroukfarouk,With all due respect, it's not hard to get. Before John 3:16, Jesus already covered baptism earlier in the chapter John 3:3-5. There is no actual requirement that baptism has to be in every salvation scripture, the only requirement is that it's there and it is. It seems to me that the difficulty you're having is due to deep Evangelical conditioning. A bible-believing person who does not have such conditioning wouldn't have a problem with this.
I remember some of other evangelicals who when faced with an argument, tend to say "It's time to end the discussion", not because they just don't think we'll agree, because they just don't want to answer the argument. Would you care to address what we've said before you leave? Either the fact that be baptism salvation verse requirement has been met, or Jamie's argument that we are supposed to take scriptures cumulatively? Otherwise it really appears that your backing out just because you wish to avoid these.
Frankly, no; if you look at the Favorite Bible verse thread, I give my rationale for not wanting to pursue this. I could say a great deal.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #249 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:32:29 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #250 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:42:35 »
Jamie,
Quote
Are ya IN or OUT? I enjoy your input. Is debate the problem? Everyone gives it their best shot. I have changed my mind on some things here over the years? Are you open to the possibility of seeing scripture differently than you have in years or decades.

Coming from a very conservative Church of Christ congregation as a young man to now a more progressive congregation and engaging others here, I HAVE changed my mind on some things. Who knows other things may be seen differently by me as I interact with others here. If I wasn’t open to that I would leave this forum to keep from getting doctrinely polluted.
Jamie, have you ever come across an element within the by grace alone, through faith alone community in person that when you confront them with scriptures or information or a question that contradicts their paradigm that the stereotypical arguments are not enough to handle, that they then look away and smile and say "I just don't think this going anywhere I think we should end this." ?  I've seen that pattern a couple of times in the past. I suspect this is what we're seeing.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 14:34:50 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #250 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:42:35 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #251 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:45:54 »
Jamie,Jamie, have you never come an element within the in the by grace alone, through faith alone community in person that when you confront them with scriptures or information or a question that contradicts their paradigm that the stereotypical argument is not enough to handle, that they then look away and smile and say "I just don't think this going anywhere I think we should end this." ?  I've seen that pattern a couple of times in the past. I get the feeling this is what we're seeing.

I've had this in person with 5 steppers (since we are using slightly mean designations, I thought I would participate).

I had a baptism discussion with a CofC elder.  Since I responded with biblical verses to his diatribe, he got beet red and was very angry.

In fact, angry enough I was sure he wanted to hit me.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #252 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:48:08 »
faroukfarouk,With all due respect, it's not hard to get. Before John 3:16, Jesus already covered baptism earlier in the chapter John 3:3-5. There is no actual requirement that baptism has to be in every salvation scripture, the only requirement is that it's there and it is. It seems to me that the difficulty you're having is due to deep Evangelical conditioning. A bible-believing person who does not have such conditioning wouldn't have a problem with this.
I remember some of other evangelicals who when faced with an argument, tend to say "It's time to end the discussion", not because they just don't think we'll agree, because they just don't want to answer the argument. Would you care to address what we've said before you leave? Either the fact that be baptism salvation verse requirement has been met, or Jamie's argument that we are supposed to take scriptures cumulatively? Otherwise it really appears that your backing out just because you wish to avoid these.

I still don't buy that John 3:3-5 is discussing water baptism.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #253 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:52:30 »
Texas Conservative,
Sorry you had that experience, I had a similar experience with a CofC mainline preacher. He went off on me! It is similar, cause in both cases they don't want to deal with what's being presented to them. But different in their style of response. I'm speaking of real experiences and by grace alone, through faith alone community was an agreed upon name between me and someone in that community, why do you think of this as a slightly mean designation?

Quote
I still don't buy that John 3:3-5 is discussing water baptism.
Ok.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:01:12 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #253 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:52:30 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #254 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:58:19 »
Texas Conservative,
Sorry you had that experience, I had a similar experience with a CofC mainline preacher. He went off on me! It is similar, it is similar, cousin both cases they don't want to deal with what's being presented to them. But different in their style of response. I'm speaking of real experiences, why do you think of this as a slightly mean designation?
Ok.

I think you were pigeonholing a whole group of people.

I have never met a "bible believing person" who has not had some doctrinal conditioning that may not line up with scripture.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #255 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:05:24 »
I still don't buy that John 3:3-5 is discussing water baptism.
What water is it discussing?

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #256 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:06:35 »
Texas Conservative,
Quote
I think you were pigeonholing a whole group of people.

I have never met a "bible believing person" who has not had some doctrinal conditioning that may not line up with scripture.
Good point. I can agree with that, and I was addressing one variety of conditioning, there are many.
I do believe though, that I've spoken with people who have risen above their conditioning, both in and outside of my belief system.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:20:16 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #257 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 12:48:51 »
faroukfarouk,
Quote
Frankly, no; if you look at the Favorite Bible verse thread, I give my rationale for not wanting to pursue this. I could say a great deal.
I missed seeing this post. Will do. I'll respect that.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #258 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 08:46:25 »
Quote
And I forgot to add, Paul was saved because he repented and believed in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes they have done a fabulous job, but answering what? The fabulous thing that they can do is to listen and try to understand what Ananias said to Paul. It was an unconditional election and appointment by God of Paul. If they don't see that as the salvation of Paul, who himself confessed and considers himself as the chief of sinners, but insist that Paul was saved because he was baptized with water, then they have closed their eyes to the truth that salvation belongs to God and is the work of God and is accomplished by God.

Despite being elected by God as His chosen instrument, he was still with his sins,  last I checked, one is not saved until their sins are forgiven. This was addressed to you by others in their fabulous response, and you have not offered anyting to make that go away.

Apparently, you seem to agree that we see in the case of Paul, an unconditional election and appointment by God of Paul. That I'd say is good. Now, the question is, do you see that as God's salvation work on Paul or is it just that He had chosen Paul for a purpose?

Don't you agree and believe that salvation does not belong to man, is not the work of man, is not accomplished by man, but belongs to God and is the work of God and is accomplished by God?

Yes, Paul was a sinner when he was chosen by God, and election is not forgiveness of sins. But clearly, such election as that of Paul, as was that of the apostles, is grace from God. And we learn from scriptures that salvation was accomplished by God, in Christ. God gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have everlasting life. And what does it take for one to believe, but that he repents toward God and Christ?

Now Paul was unconditionally elected and was granted repentance for the forgiveness of his sins. That he was told to call on God. And for what that he was told to call on God by Ananias, except that he ask for the forgiveness of his sins? And what does his calling on the Lord speaks out, but his having repented unto believing in the Lord?

Yes, one is not saved until his sins are forgiven. And one is not forgiven until he repent and call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness. And don't you know that it is God who grants us repentance? In the case at hand, obviously Paul was granted repentance by God. 

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #259 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 08:53:56 »
And baptism IS that “calling upon the Lord FOR a clear conscience” where Paul’s sins were washed away. 1 Peter 3:21.

Also God doesn’t repent FOR us. God pricks our hearts unto Godly Sorrow, and Godly sorrow brings about repentance, our choice to repent or not.

Yes salvation is ALL of God - offered to man for our acceptance or rejection. The gift is His, the choice to accept is ours. Our choice does not take away anything from God saving us. It is none of man in his acceptance. Our receiving the gift in no way cheapens the priceless gift of salvation.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 08:59:00 by Jaime »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #260 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 09:09:00 »
Michael it is clear that you apparently not only do not know what baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is but also don't know what repenting is either.  Repenting is not something God does for us but something we must do ourselves.  You try so hard to discredit baptism purpose that you mess up other biblical terms as well

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #261 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 09:15:53 »
I agree Yogi, repentance is what every invitation song ever written and sung was about, OUR response to God’s gracious gift that we cannot earn or merit.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #262 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 09:20:31 »
In the case at hand, obviously Paul was granted repentance by God.
Granted repentance??  That is not even a rational statement.  Repentance isn't granted.  It is accepted or rejected.  If someone wrongs you and then repents and apologizes to you for what he has said or done, you don't grant his repenting and apologizing; you accept it or you reject it.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #263 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 09:25:54 »
Michael, if I offered to give you $100 as a free gift, would you be contributing any part to the free gift by accepting it?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #264 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 12:05:47 »
Jaime,
Good question.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #265 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 13:19:39 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Apparently, you seem to agree that we see in the case of Paul, an unconditional election and appointment by God of Paul. That I'd say is good. Now, the question is, do you see that as God's salvation work on Paul or is it just that He had chosen Paul for a purpose?
Just that He had chosen Paul for a purpose. Plus God knows in advance that he will be saved.

Quote
Don't you agree and believe that salvation does not belong to man, is not the work of man, is not accomplished by man, but belongs to God and is the work of God and is accomplished by God?
This isn't straight language. There is some evangelical ideology and terminology here. I will answer in straight language and scripture. Salvation does not belong to man, as it is something only God does. God does the actual "saving". We "accomplish" the response that He has called for before He saves us. Salvation is not the work of men, in the sense of Ephesians 2:8-15, which means not the tasks God has planned for us after we are saved and not circumcision or other works of the Mosaic law. But we do our part in the process, and God does His, which is by far the greater part.

Quote
Yes, Paul was a sinner when he was chosen by God, and election is not forgiveness of sins. But clearly, such election as that of Paul, as was that of the apostles, is grace from God. And we learn from scriptures that salvation was accomplished by God, in Christ. God gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have everlasting life. And what does it take for one to believe, but that he repents toward God and Christ?

Now Paul was unconditionally elected and was granted repentance for the forgiveness of his sins. That he was told to call on God. And for what that he was told to call on God by Ananias, except that he ask for the forgiveness of his sins? And what does his calling on the Lord speaks out, but his having repented unto believing in the Lord?
We learn from scripture that the opportunity for salvation was accomplished by God. As you said, whoever believes in him. God has given us the opportunity, and God does the saving, but in the middle is still the response God expects from us.

From the point of And for what that he was told.... onward, your language is very convoluted and unclear. Please clear it up or simplify it. Thank you.

Quote
Yes, one is not saved until his sins are forgiven. And one is not forgiven until he repent and call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness. And don't you know that it is God who grants us repentance?
In the sense of
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

yes, he was granted repentance, but in the sense of
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
and
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

he also "repented". It's a response as well as a gift.

Quote
In the case at hand, obviously Paul was granted repentance by God.
He also repented. And Ananias included, Acts 22:16 ... Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

You're correct including repentance, because repentance is necessary, but in the very verse where it refers to washing away sins, being baptized and calling on His name were also, explicitly, included.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 13:56:46 by e.r.m. »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #266 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 14:05:25 »
Erm, I would contend it’s not baptism AND calling on his name. Baptism IS calling on his name 1Peter 3:21.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #267 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 14:31:57 »
Jamie,
Like dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. This is one of those things. They overlap so much, but I think it could be stated either way justifiably.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #268 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 14:40:20 »
If one is baptized, they ARE calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience. 1 Peter 3:21.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #269 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 17:11:25 »
I agree.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #270 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 17:48:02 »
I agree.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #271 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 18:36:24 »
If one is baptized, they ARE calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience. 1 Peter 3:21.

Sounds like the biblical "sinner's prayer."

Would be interested to see if Michael2012 practices the sinner's prayer or has a problem with it.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #272 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 18:44:21 »
Texas Conservative,
Biblical sinner's prayer? That's an oximoron.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 18:46:42 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #273 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 18:51:03 »
Michael2012,
Do you practice the sinner's prayer or have a problem with it?

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #274 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 18:56:23 »
Texas Conservative,
Biblical sinner's prayer? That's an oximoron.

It is why I used quotes.  The sinner's prayer is a method of contacting God in faith.  I do not believe it is correct as a formula.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #275 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 19:19:04 »
Texas Conservative,
Sorry, I see.

How does  "If one is baptized, they ARE calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience" sound like the sinner's prayer to you?
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 20:13:32 by e.r.m. »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #276 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 21:47:32 »
Texas Conservative,
Sorry, I see.

How does  "If one is baptized, they ARE calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience" sound like the sinner's prayer to you?

The entire "calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience" deal sounds like the sinner's prayer.

The "calling on His Name" as well.

I don't happen to like the Sinner's Prayer, but my brotherhood has employed it's use.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #277 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:01:16 »
Who said we have to like it. Baptism being the appeal to God for a clear conscience is is as plainly visible in scripture as my nose is on my face. And it was exactly what Paul did as chronicled in Acts 22.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:04:04 by Jaime »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #278 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:07:45 »
Who said we have to like it. Baptism being the appeal to God for a clear conscience is is as plainly visible in scripture as my nose is on my face. And it was exactly what Paul did as chronicled in Acts 22.

I was explaining why baptism is very much the biblical version of "The Sinner's Prayer." 


Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #279 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:12:45 »
Gotcha. Absolutely right! But it has nothing to do with salvation to some. Incredible. It’s like saying football has absolutely nothing to do with the NCAA. Or weiners have nothing to do with hotdogs.