Author Topic: Romans 3:25  (Read 10255 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #280 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:32:58 »
The sinner's prayer is, as I have heard of it and understand it, is a literal prayer for forgiveness and of commitment to Jesus unto salvation. Nothing in scripture teaches or exemplifies this.

Baptism is an explicitly commanded expression of faith in Christ for our salvation that unites the baptized together with Christ on the cross and with His resurrection, the baptized nonverbally seeking for forgiveness and cleansing of sins and inclusion among those of the body of Christ.

I can't even begin to compare the two.

TC, I know what you are saying. Anything that a person believes is what finally results in the forgiveness of sins and addition to the body could be that person's "sinner's prayer." It's just that, from reading these latest posts, there seems to be this comparison because of phrases like, "calling on the name of the Lord" and "an appeal for a clean conscience." This calling and appeal are largely nonverbal as far as I see it in baptism, and so they shouldn't have caused any comparison to verbal prayer to begin with.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #280 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 22:32:58 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #281 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 23:02:17 »
I looked up a few evangelical videos on baptism and it's sad how much they don't use scriptures.
https://youtu.be/TDt_yX-DX4s
He said it makes it clear throughout the word throughout the Bible, that is not a ritual that saves anybody. But then he doesn't even try to show in the Bible where it makes it clear. He's like "Just trust me!"

He then reads Romans 6:3, he reads the part where it says we are joined with him in baptism, and then he said something different than what he just read, that it identifies us with Christ. He didn't just read that it "identifies" us with Christ he read that it "joins" us with Christ. He's making himself out to be a liar in front of his audience.

In the second one
https://youtu.be/g2Eox0kFAAY
the first guy says he's going to walk through the Bible and then repeatedly says "The Bible says", "The Bible says", without quoting the Bible on most of his points. Most of these preachers, including him, use Romans 6:3-4 and then say things that are not written there, like symbolizing and publically declaring on's faith. The third guy, same thing. The little scriptures they use don't say what they're saying. Very light on scripture in proportion to all their points. This one uses nice music though, which helps people not notice their lack of Biblical support.

And as well, they all refer to Romans 6 as baptism in water. It is only recently that people are moving away from saying that Romans 6 is baptism in water, because verses 4-7 show that the baptism in Romans 6 is for salvation. That is no longer deniable, so now everybody's jumping ship and calling it the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. These videos show that evangelicals originally believed Romans 6 as baptism in water.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 00:06:23 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #282 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 23:07:00 »
soterion,
Agreed.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #282 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 23:07:00 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #283 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 23:10:31 »
Texas Conservative,
Quote
The entire "calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience" deal sounds like the sinner's prayer.

The "calling on His Name" as well.

I don't happen to like the Sinner's Prayer, but my brotherhood has employed it's use.

I was explaining why baptism is very much the biblical version of "The Sinner's Prayer."
Thank you for explaining.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #283 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 23:10:31 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #284 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 11:42:44 »
Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin,
        because we are not under the law,
        but under grace? God forbid.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not,
        that to whom ye YIELD yourselves servants TO OBEY, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
        whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
        but ye have OBEYED from the heart that FORM

        of doctrine which was delivered you.

Knowing that defining WORDS is a dangerous thing 

        OBEYED: g5219 hupakous to heed or conform to a command or authority: — hearken, be obedient to, obey.
     
        FORM: g5179. tupos,  figuratively) style or resemblance;
        specially, a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): 

Rom. 6:18 Being THEN made FREE from sin,
       ye BECAME the servants of righteousness.
Rom. 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:
       For as ye have YIELDED your members servants to UNCLEANNESS  and to iniquity unto iniquity;
       even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
        and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the HOUSE of God:
       and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself
        in the HOUSE of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God,
        the pillar and ground of the truth.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #284 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 11:42:44 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #285 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 09:11:47 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:46:18
You are right, baptism is a command, unlike repentance towards God and faith in Christ.

You are wrong repentance is a command just as faith is a command.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 17:30 (KJV)
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Just as the many scriptures teach one must believe but I know you already know them so no need to post them.

See you read the scriptures but do not understand what you read because those above proved your statement that repentance and faith is not a command.

I respect your opinion sir. We are aware that each of us here have somewhat different takes of what God has revealed about Him and creation in scriptures. That is the very reason why Christians, like us, take time to study and exchange thoughts regarding this. On my end, I do this in the spirit of truth, and hope of unity and fellowship in the Spirit among the children of God.

Consider the following, regarding the Greek word "paraggelló" translated as "command":

Matthew 15:35 So He commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground.

Luke 8:31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

While in Acts 17:30, it says God commands all men to repent, it is in the same sense as that in Matthew 15:35, and not in the sense as it is used in Luke 8:31. Point being is that, while you can say and read in Acts 17:30 that repentance is a command, it is not in the same sense as that with baptism in the name of Christ, which the apostles were commanded to do on those who were granted repentance, who repented towards God and faith in Christ, that is, those who believes in the gospel the apostles were commanded to preach.   

Baptism is not a command to Christians, but to them who were granted repentance, that is, those who repents and believes in the gospel.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #285 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 09:11:47 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #286 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 09:17:59 »
For those wanting to be Christians.

He that believes AND  is baptized shall be saved (become a Christian).
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 10:56:03 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #287 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 09:25:00 »
Baptism is not a command to Christians, but to them who were granted repentance, that is, those who repents and believes in the gospel.
Granted repentance??  What in the world does that even mean?  Repentance isn't granted.  Repentance is what the believer does.  The one who believes, repents and is baptized is receives the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Receiving forgiveness and being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is how one becomes a Christian.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #288 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 11:00:00 »
I agree 4 WD. Repentance is one of man’s faith responses. It is NOT something granted.

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #288 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 11:00:00 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #289 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 17:44:27 »
Really Michael do you read what you post? Please show me just one passage that say one is granted repentance I am quite sure that I have not ever seen one passage that makes that claim so please show me where you get that.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #290 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 22:04:37 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:01:07
No one here I suppose is suggesting that a believer should not be baptized nor be baptized later. The point is in the question:  When one does repent and believe in God and Christ, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?

Michael let me answer your question with a question. Do believe what scriptures say? I will let the scriptures do the talking because I admittedly do not know the mind of God but only what he revealed in his word can you say the same and let the word answer your question?
The question is when is the forgiveness of sin recorded as being done. Before baptism or through baptism?

Do we agree that before the cross the coming kingdom was to be preached setting the way for the kingdom to be in place? If so we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was all recorded of the kingdom to come. In Acts we read that the kingdom has come and we read in Acts 2 of how one is to enter into the kingdom.

Peter preaches the resurrected Christ for the first time in opening the doors to the kingdom that has come. In so he answers sthe question of what one must do to enter into the kingdom

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Nothing hidden here it is clearly spelled out One must repent (command) and be baptized in Christ name (why) for the forgiveness of sin (then) you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Could not get any more clear could it?

But as we told you this is backed by more scripture it is not a stand alone.

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

See this backs up Acts 2:38 saying the same the baptism in Christ name is for the forgiveness of sin and how one calls on the name of the Lord.

That is not the only one that backs it up look at Romans 6

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You see it clearly states that it is in the baptism in Christ name that we are transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ the new birth.

Romans 6:16-18 (KJV)
16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You see Paul says that it was in the baptism in Christ name that the transformation took place. He backs that in other letters to the church this is not a stand alone scripture but has backing from others.

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

See again Paul says that it was in the baptism in Christ name where one has put on Christ backing the above scriptures.

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Again Paul testifying that in baptism ones sin are forgiven and the new birth take place.

How many more times does one need to be told. The bible has answered your question for you will you take it for its word or do you want to debate the scriptures that gives the only recorded answer you are seeking. We can not go above or beyond what is recorded.

Perhaps, after I address your post here you can answer my question with an honest direct answer.

You posted "The question is when is the forgiveness of sin recorded as being done. Before baptism or through baptism?"

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin

Apparently, many think that forgiveness of sins is had by baptism, which is not, but is by repentance towards God and believing in Christ.

Examine and study the two scriptures I cited. For in them, this truth can be learned. Christ had offered up his life, that is His blood, as a sacrificial offering for the sin of the world. Why there is no more offering for sin is because what Christ had offered, the only sacrifice acceptable to God and that which pleased God, had effected the remission of sins, once and for all. That's what Hebrews 10:18 says.

Not only for a few, but for the world. That is not to say that all had been forgiven.

Now, those who believe in Christ receives forgiveness of sin. That is what Acts 10:43 says. And why is that? For only in Christ, one receives the mercy of God. Examine and study the following scriptures to learn about what one have in Christ.

Ephesians 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Ephesians 1 is a good read on this matter. Please examine and study it.

I wonder why many read scriptures and look for what they must do to be saved, when the scriptures is about what God had done to save man.

The message is simple. Salvation is in Christ. So be in Christ. Obviously, what is there for man to do, is to be in Christ. Repent therefore, towards God, and believe in Christ. For in Christ is the forgiveness of sins.

Another thing is that, not many think and understand, that they are saved, not because of their compliance to and their doing of what they take as good works, but because they are IN CHRIST. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #291 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 22:13:50 »
Michael, repenting is most certainly a faith response just as confessing with our lips and baptism.

In the first century all faith responses were immediate per scripture. The modern idea of delaying baptism is not modeled in scripture.

We are told in scripture what happens with the non-hypotheticals. What happens in the hypotheticals is up to God. His inspired scripture did not address every hypothetical. We know from scripture one is saved if he believe and is baptized. We know that an unbeliever is condemned. Scripture does not address an unbaptized believer. It would not have been contemplated in the first century.

Baptism is not a “rite” invented by man. God chose it as a meaningful faith response just as he did repentance, and confessing with our lips.

And remember, there is no reason to look for a single verse to include all aspects of salvation. We MUST take all scripture cumultively, which is why we were given scripture. The believe verses do not trump all other salvation verses. The repent verses do not trump all other salvation verses, etc. if all salvation verses don’t apply, then I see no basis for this discussion or the New Testament as a whole for that matter.

Yes perhaps baptism is not a rite invented by man, but nevertheless, still a rite.

Nobody here is saying of taking a single verse and make it say all that scriptures says elsewhere. But there is but one message on salvation. What is that? That salvation belongs to God and is in Christ. So be in Christ. Obviously, what is there for man to do, is to be in Christ. Repent therefore, towards God, and believe in Christ. For in Christ is the forgiveness of sins.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #292 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 22:23:30 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:19:26
So you leave the HYPOTHETICALS in God's hand. And in whose hand then do you leave the NON HYPOTHETICALS? Man's or God's?
God of course saves the Non Hypotheticals - by his prescribed way in scripture. We can read what he prescribed. He didn't address the Hypotheticals in scripture as I have said, which is why their fate is up to Him. A prime example of an age old hypothetical is the quadriplegic stranded in middle of the Sahara Desert. Not addressed in scripture, therefore up to God and his will.

The question is "in whose hand then do you leave the NON HYPOTHETICALS?". I hope to have your direct answer on this.

You opined "He didn't address the Hypotheticals in scripture as I have said, which is why their fate is up to Him." Don't you believe that God, in Christ, had revealed His will and the fate of man?   

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #293 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 22:54:36 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:50:43
And what made you think that these verses are lacking?

Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there.
Michael I beg to differ on your statement that those passages does not speak of baptism  if you open your eyes they do just as they speak of repentance as you said.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

How was Jesus lifted up? Isn't it a direct reference to the cross, and where did Paul say we meet Jesus at the cross? Hint look at Romans  it is in the baptism in Christ name where we are buried with Christ and rise new in Christ. The born again experience.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here again How did God give his son to redeem man was it not the cross that we have already covered above?

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Again it can not be with out the cross and we have answered this with scripture.


On John 3:14, you said "How was Jesus lifted up? Isn't it a direct reference to the cross, and where did Paul say we meet Jesus at the cross? Hint look at Romans  it is in the baptism in Christ name where we are buried with Christ and rise new in Christ. The born again experience."

That is stretching the verse far too much that it breaks and not hold. While the lifting up refer to the crucifixion, the point of the verse is this: that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life (v.15), typical to that in the lifting of the serpent.

On John 3:16, you said "Here again How did God give his son to redeem man was it not the cross that we have already covered above?"

And I have covered that one above. The same is true here, that is, whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

On John 11:25-27, you said "Again it can not be with out the cross and we have answered this with scripture."

And again, I sorry to say, that you have not. As you can clearly see, what is all over is about believing in Christ. Christ told the woman "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live."

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #294 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:00:01 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Quote
And what made you think that these verses are lacking?
Yes, these passages does not explicitly talk about repentance. But repentance, if you just open wide your eyes, is all over these passages.

Now, with regards baptism, no matter how wide you may open your eyes, you won't see it there.
Eye of the beholder, huh? Isn't that convenient? Sorry, but the written word carries more weight than inferences. John 12:47-50, 2 Peter 1:20-21.

It is for the spiritual man, but not for the natural man. For scriptures are the things of the Spirit of God and they are spiritually discerned.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #295 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:09:09 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Quote
What is your answer to the question then? Can you say it direct to the point?
My answer to the question is that the Bible doesn't say when the precise moment is, down to the second, just that it happens then. The same would apply for any other alleged method of getting saved. The best description I've ever heard is that salvation ultimately occurs in the mind of God, because He's the one who forgives us. So to know when this precisely happens in the mind of God is beyond our knowledge.

The question:

Does God forgives only in baptism?

If you preached to someone, that he should believe in Christ and be baptized, and does repent and believe, will he be saved only when baptized with water or after being baptized with water?


The question is not asking as to what precise moment one is saved. So, I'd say that your answer evades the question. So, kindly stick to the question. They're simple enough, won't you agree?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #296 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:16:37 »
Michael it is clear that you apparently not only do not know what baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is but also don't know what repenting is either.  Repenting is not something God does for us but something we must do ourselves.  You try so hard to discredit baptism purpose that you mess up other biblical terms as well

Who is saying that repenting is something God does for us? I don't know where you got that.

Welcoming such idea impress on me that you either don't know what repentance is or how one comes to repentance.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #297 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:19:54 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 08:46:25
In the case at hand, obviously Paul was granted repentance by God.
Granted repentance??  That is not even a rational statement.  Repentance isn't granted.  It is accepted or rejected.  If someone wrongs you and then repents and apologizes to you for what he has said or done, you don't grant his repenting and apologizing; you accept it or you reject it.

Apparently, it may not be to you.

You said "Repentance isn't granted.  It is accepted or rejected."

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #298 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:22:32 »
Michael, if I offered to give you $100 as a free gift, would you be contributing any part to the free gift by accepting it?
Jaime,
Good question.


No.

See, I can answer directly a simple question. I hope you could likewise when I ask you simple questions.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #299 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 23:44:34 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Apparently, you seem to agree that we see in the case of Paul, an unconditional election and appointment by God of Paul. That I'd say is good. Now, the question is, do you see that as God's salvation work on Paul or is it just that He had chosen Paul for a purpose?
Just that He had chosen Paul for a purpose. Plus God knows in advance that he will be saved.

So, are you saying that God's election only applies to one in whom God had some purpose to be done by the man, like that of His election of Paul? What do you think then is God's election of a people to be His people? 

And of course, needless to point out, God is omniscient and have foreknowledge.

Now, you said regarding the case of Paul, "God knows in advance that he will be saved." How do you supposed that comes about in the foreknowledge of God? I would suppose you are referring to some future occasion that Paul would believe in Christ. And by saying that God knew that it would happen that Paul will believe, you give us the impression that God took this out from the future by electing him ahead of that. Is that what you are telling us?  Please explain.   

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #300 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 00:07:30 »
Quote
Quote
Don't you agree and believe that salvation does not belong to man, is not the work of man, is not accomplished by man, but belongs to God and is the work of God and is accomplished by God?
This isn't straight language. There is some evangelical ideology and terminology here. I will answer in straight language and scripture. Salvation does not belong to man, as it is something only God does. God does the actual "saving". We "accomplish" the response that He has called for before He saves us. Salvation is not the work of men, in the sense of Ephesians 2:8-15, which means not the tasks God has planned for us after we are saved and not circumcision or other works of the Mosaic law. But we do our part in the process, and God does His, which is by far the greater part.

Straight language? Can you tell us what is straight language?

By what you said, you are saying then the following:

1. That salvation does not belong to man.
2. That salvation belongs to God.
3. That salvation is something only God does.
4. That God does the saving.
5. That salvation is not the work of men.
6. That in order for God to save man, God needed man to accomplish something that he commands of them to accomplish.

All except #6, affirms your agreement that salvation does not belong to man, is not the work of man, and belongs to God and is the work of God. However, #6 negates that salvation is accomplished by God. It makes God's accomplishing His salvation dependent on man. So the questions arise:

Must God depend on man in accomplishing His salvation?

Can God trust and have faith in sinful man that he is both able and will accomplish that which you say is the part of man to do so that God accomplishes His salvation?
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:18:46 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #301 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 00:45:05 »
Quote
Quote
Yes, Paul was a sinner when he was chosen by God, and election is not forgiveness of sins. But clearly, such election as that of Paul, as was that of the apostles, is grace from God. And we learn from scriptures that salvation was accomplished by God, in Christ. God gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have everlasting life. And what does it take for one to believe, but that he repents toward God and Christ?

Now Paul was unconditionally elected and was granted repentance for the forgiveness of his sins. That he was told to call on God. And for what that he was told to call on God by Ananias, except that he ask for the forgiveness of his sins? And what does his calling on the Lord speaks out, but his having repented unto believing in the Lord?
We learn from scripture that the opportunity for salvation was accomplished by God. As you said, whoever believes in him. God has given us the opportunity, and God does the saving, but in the middle is still the response God expects from us.

From the point of And for what that he was told.... onward, your language is very convoluted and unclear. Please clear it up or simplify it. Thank you.

I did not say that God has given us the opportunity to be saved, unless you are putting that into my mouth. What I said is "that salvation was accomplished by God, in Christ." Very different I should say.

I don't see anything convoluted in my post Sir. But okay, to simply things for you:

Paul was a sinner when he was chosen by God.
Election is not forgiveness of sins.
Election, such as that of Paul, is grace from God.
Salvation was accomplished by God, in Christ.
Jesus Christ is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Whosoever BELIEVES in Christ should have everlasting life.
What it takes for one to believe, is that he repents toward God and Christ.

Remember that on the road to Damascus, Paul was out on a mission, having authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on the name of Christ. He is obviously against Christ and those who believes in Christ. Now, we know the story. Paul was unconditionally elected by God. Unconditionally in that, there is nothing in Paul that is deserving of God's grace of having to elect him for a godly mission. To the contrary, he is deserving of punishment for persecuting Christ. Now, later he was told to call on the name of God. And for what that he was told to call on God by Ananias, except that he ask for the forgiveness of his sins? This could only be evidence that he was granted repentance by God, for the forgiveness of his sins. Paul did call on the Lord, evidently speaking out his having repented unto believing in the Lord.

I hope that, that is no longer convoluted for you sir.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #302 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 00:54:17 »
Quote
Quote
Yes, one is not saved until his sins are forgiven. And one is not forgiven until he repent and call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness. And don't you know that it is God who grants us repentance?
In the sense of
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

yes, he was granted repentance, but in the sense of
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
and
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

he also "repented". It's a response as well as a gift.

Quote
Quote
In the case at hand, obviously Paul was granted repentance by God.
He also repented. And Ananias included, Acts 22:16 ... Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

You're correct including repentance, because repentance is necessary, but in the very verse where it refers to washing away sins, being baptized and calling on His name were also, explicitly, included.


You said of repentance, "It's a response as well as a gift." Please explain how this is.

With regards your post on the last segment, can you tell us your understanding of "Paul was granted repentance by God"?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #303 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:13:31 »
If one is baptized, they ARE calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience. 1 Peter 3:21.

Please tell us what you mean to say by "calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience", which you relate with baptism and 1 Peter 3:21.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #304 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:42:44 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 09:11:47
Baptism is not a command to Christians, but to them who were granted repentance, that is, those who repents and believes in the gospel.

Granted repentance??  What in the world does that even mean?  Repentance isn't granted.  Repentance is what the believer does.  The one who believes, repents and is baptized is receives the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).  Receiving forgiveness and being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is how one becomes a Christian.

You said "Repentance isn't granted." Scriptures on the other hand said it is:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

You said "Repentance is what the believer does."

That is not quite right Sir. Repentance is what an unbeliever does, and that, towards God and believe in Christ. And how does he have repentance, if not, God grants him repentance?

You said "Receiving forgiveness and being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is how one becomes a Christian."

Again, that is not quite right Sir. Receiving forgiveness, though a Christian does, and receiving the HS, though a Christian does, is not how one becomes a Christian or is what makes one a Christian. Repenting towards God and believing in Christ is what makes one a Christian.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #305 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:45:00 »
I agree 4 WD. Repentance is one of man’s faith responses. It is NOT something granted.

Scriptures says:

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #306 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:46:05 »
Really Michael do you read what you post? Please show me just one passage that say one is granted repentance I am quite sure that I have not ever seen one passage that makes that claim so please show me where you get that.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #307 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 01:48:53 »
For those wanting to be Christians.

He that believes AND  is baptized shall be saved (become a Christian).


Becoming a Christian is not a want that could be acquired by doing this or that.

One becomes a Christian, when God grants him repentance, that he repents towards God and believe in Christ.

The right to become children of God is not something that could be earned nor bought. It is something that is given by God, given to those who receive Christ and believe in His name, those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 06:59:39 by Michael2012 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #308 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 08:23:25 »
Michael, calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience is an APPEAL TO God for such. Where’s the confusion on this?
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 09:19:05 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #309 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 09:18:37 »
Michael, calling upon the Lord FOR a clean conscience is an APPEAL TO God for such. Where’s the confusiin on this?

Who is saying of a confusion in that? All I was requesting is for you to expound on it, so that I may know what you understand by it, in relation to baptism and 1 Peter 3:21.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #310 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 09:20:05 »
Expounded is what I did. Do you not see the same thing? It is what Paul did in Acts 22. He arose and was baptized washing away his sins calling upon the Lord. Baptism IS the APPEAL to God to wash away sins. Which is what 1Peter 3:21 says. It all matches up and is perfectly congruant. If one of us doesn’t see that, one of us is confused, hence my question.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 09:24:36 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #311 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 09:46:25 »
Expounded is what I did. Do you not see the same thing? It is what Paul did in Acts 22. He arose and was baptized washing away his sins calling upon the Lord. Baptism IS the APPEAL to God to wash away sins. Which is what 1Peter 3:21 says. It all matches up and is perfectly congruant. If one of us doesn’t see that, one of us is confused, hence my question.

Very well then, can you tell me how you understand 1 Peter 3:21?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #312 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 10:15:53 »
I understand it pretty much as I have already stated. The verse clearly states that baptism is NOT like washing dirt off of your body, but it is an appeal to GOD FOR a clear conscience, via the remission of sin. Should we understand it differently than what it says?
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 10:33:50 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #313 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 10:53:47 »
I understand it pretty much as I have already stated. The verse clearly states that baptism is NOT like washing dirt off of your body, but it is an appeal to GOD FOR a clear conscience, via the remission of sin. Should we understand it differently than what it says?

1 Pet. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

But wait, that is not the translation I guess that you refer to. Anyway, taking what you say there, that baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience via the remission of sins, how is baptism an antitype, and an antitype of what?


Offline Jaime

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Re: Romans 3:25
« Reply #314 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:06:12 »
Noah’s ark was the anti-type. My version NASB says corresponding to that baptism now saves you, not like washing dirt off the body, but as an appeal to God FOR a clean conscience.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 11:22:30 by Jaime »

 

     
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