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Offline RB

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 05:06:15 »
Quote from: RB SALVATION? #55 on: Yesterday at 15:47:23
Let us continue on Reply # 55 where I left off.
You said:
Quote from: Ginger Rella Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 08:54:03
lets continue our study 2 more verses into Mark 16 : 17 and 18...."And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Context of any discourse is needed to fully grasp the meaning of the speaker(s).

Before I address Acts 2:38,39 let us not leave here until we leave it with the understanding of what is being taught to us by Jesus himself.  These words spoke by our Lord in verses 17,18 where true and happened before the Promised of the Spirit that came on the day Pentecost~fifty days after Jesus' death and resurrection.

What we need to accept is that no one can privately interpret the Scriptures, as Scripture is not subject to private interpretations. It is its own interpreter. Through our trust in comparing the word of God with itself, it actually explains itself. Our duty is to teach our brothers and sisters how to do this. How could man dare to think that he of himself could figure out or define what the mind of God actually intended or what a passage truly means, without yielding to what God had divinely incorporated in the Bible precisely for that purpose? Man can't even understand the simple things of life, for all have their different opinions on just about everything under heaven and each generation thinks they can improve on the one before them, so without God's inspired text, how could he understand the mind of God? It is only by being spiritual, being led by 'the Spirit of God' through the careful reading and receiving what He Himself has inspired written, do we find the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:15-16) to understand. Through His Spirit is the truth revealed that the Bible is its own dictionary, its own interpreter, and its own witness to its truth. It defines itself, it interprets itself, and by the Holy Spirit, it witnesses to its own agreement, validity, and meaning. In plain language, only what came out of God's mouth can define what God's word means. And it does that by the Spirit working within us as we search through His word. Seeking the truth is in 'receiving' all of what scripture says in the light of itself. It is in comparing scripture with scripture and finding what is in harmony and thus reconciling all that might appear in opposition. For the most basic rule of sound Biblical hermeneutics is that "no scripture contradicts itself, nor can it be privately interpreted."The scriptures can only be our "authority" if we allow it to define itself and interpret itself. If we attempt to define or interpret it ourselves, we will inevitably come to our own personal and erroneous conclusions~like so many do.

There is more in the Bible that can be learned in one lifetime, but it is not as complicated or as hard to discern as some would have you believe. God didn't inspire the Bible written simply for Rhodes scholar, He inspired it written for all of us. His simple unlearned believers compared to the world's wisdom and mighty men among them. So then, as we look at the words in the 16th chapter of Mark, let us remember that the Bible alone is the ultimate 'authority' in interpretation. Thus let us allow it to tell us what God is really teaching, and how we are to understand it as signs to all those who believe~and may the Lord who is Gracious above all, guide us all into His marvelous and glorious truths.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Mark 16:15-18~"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
It is in this context that Christ says in the next verse that 'and these signs shall follow them that believe.' In other words, these are the things which are expected to be seen in believers when they live and preach the gospel: (1.) Those who believe will cast out devils in In Christ's name. (2.) They will speak with new tongues/languages. (3.) They shall take up serpents. (4.) There will be no deadly drink that can hurt them. (5.) They will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover.

"In my name they shall cast out devils,"~
Quote
Read Luke 10:17-20~"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
"They shall take up serpents."~Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy:

"There will be no deadly drink that can hurt them."and nothing shall by any means hurt you. As it was in our Lord's day and even in the OT these things has ALWAYS followed them that believe. Whatever happened literally in the OT it happens spiritually over and over again even in our own day. We all have drunk deadly poison, by believing and receiving lies of Satan, yet we LIVE to tell about it and warn others of the danger of drinking (receiving and believing) false doctrines! Daniel was cast into the lion's den and came out UNharmed. Spiritually so was Paul:
Quote
2nd Timothy 4:17~"Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
When we speak on the behalf of Christ we are always dealing with some of the most venomous snakes in the world and they do not go on their bellies but on two feet! Mark 16:17,18 has always been true of God's Children ALL these signs follow them that believe. Do we have the power to heal people? Absolutely. Spiritual sickness is SO MUCH WORST than physical sickness, and by our faithful preaching and teaching the scriptures our words have THAT POWER to convert and heal spiritual sickness! Do we all speak with a new tongue? Yes, indeed we do! Our speech is now season with salt, words of kindness, words of praise for our God, etc. Complaining, bitterness, hatred, cursing, boasting, etc. should never once be named among us, we now speech with a new tongue! Our speech should identify us with the household of faith, not with the world~and IT WILL.

Now I said these things because I know where you were taking me to next so that we can better understand Mark 16:17,18 before we look at Acts 2:38,39 really two different subject under consideration.

Before leaving, let me add a couple of things~So many people minds get going into the wrong direction when they read of the signs following believers, all they can think of is LITERALLY and do not make the spiritual connection that Jesus was truly speaking of.  ONLY proving that they do not have the mind of Christ, but are using their carnal mind to think with. That's not good and can only lead one to drink the deadly poison that's waiting for him. 

ALL these promises are for all of God's people, past, present and further. The Spirit of God enables us to know these things. Now to Acts 2:38,39.....

« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 06:47:07 by RB »

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 05:06:15 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #71 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 06:09:31 »
Even if sinless, the baptism of JESUS was to make HIS own spirit SANCTIFIED.
Of all the really nutty things you have posted here, this one takes the cake.  That one is downright stupid.  Even worse.  That may not actually be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but it certainly does come close.

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #71 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 06:09:31 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #72 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 09:56:42 »
Luke 3:21   Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass,
            that Jesus also being BAPTIZED,
            and PRAYING, the heaven was OPENED,

SPIRIT even in a figurative sense means BREATH. The fluttering noise LIKE A Dove and produced  a VOICE

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape LIKE a dove UPON HIM
        and a VOICE came from heaven, which said,
        Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. [APPROVE]
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about THIRTY YEARS OLD OF AGE
        being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

We trust that Jesus was sinless for THIRTY YEARS before He was SANCTIFIED and sent into the World

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath SANCTIFIED,
            and sent into the world,
            Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

G37.   hagiazo, hag-ee-ad´-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: — hallow, be holy, sanctify.

The Spirit of Jesus was SANCTIFIED or set aside or ordained in the same way that a good person's spirit is sanctified after he is baptized.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
         THAT your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having RAISED UP his Son Jesus,
        SENT him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


40.  hagios, hag´-ee-os; from a‚goß hagos (an awful thing) (compare 53, 2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated): — (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #72 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 09:56:42 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #73 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 10:14:24 »
BY ONE SPIRIT (the Spirit OF ONENESS) are we baptized into ONE BODY: NOT baptized IN the Spirit.

CHRIST PROPHESIED THROUGH MANY PROPHETS AGAINST THOSE WHO REFUSE TO BE BAPTIZED  IN WATER WHO WILL BE BAPTIZED WITH WIND AND WITH FIRE.

    Is. 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious,
            and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely
            for them that are escaped of Israel.
    Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass,
            that he that is left in Zion,
            and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy,
            even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem
    Is.4:4 When the Lord
            1. shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
            2. and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof
                by the SPIRIT of judgment, and by the SPIRIT of burning.

THE THRESHING SPIRIT OF ISAIAH:

    Isa 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth:
            thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small,
            and shalt make the hills as chaff.
    Isa 41:16 Thou shalt fan them,
            and the wind [spirit] shall carry them away,
            and the whirlwind shall scatter them:
    and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
    Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none,
            and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them,
            I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

    In Amos and Isaiah the clergy had caused the people to hunger and thirst for lack of the Woord
    In Isaiah 55 Christ promises us this Word as free as the rain: that does not prevent the masses
     from stealing the Word from you and selling it back like watered wine.

    Isa 41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys:
         I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

THE THRESING SPIRIT IN JEREMIAH:

    Jeremiah 4:11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem,

    A dry wind [spirit] ruwach h7307] of the high places in the wilderness
            toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,

    Jeremiah 4:12 Even a full wind [spirit] from those places shall come unto me:
             now also will I give sentence against them.

    Jeremiah 4:13 Behold,
             he shall come up as clouds,
             and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind:
             his horses are swifter than eagles.
             Woe unto us for we are spoiled.

    Jeremiah 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness,
             that thou mayest be saved.
             How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

This WASHING is connected by Mark to John the Baptist prophesied in Malachi 3.

   and void; and the heavens, and they had no light

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #73 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 10:14:24 »

Offline fish153

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 11:43:30 »
angelic---

I didn't see your post earlier. I would just ask that you go back and read Matt. 7:21-24 carefully.  The false professors state "IN YOUR NAME" in front of all the good works they claim they
have done.  I would disagree with you concerning "I NEVER KNEW YOU". Everything in the Bible has been placed by the Holy Spirit for a reason.  I believe this statement is made
to tell us these are NOT true believers.  You will recall that Jesus sent out the Apostles to cast out demons, and Judas was amongst them.  He was given the authority to cast out demons
even though he was not a true believer in Christ.  We see this later when Jesus says that He already knows that "one of you is a devil".

When Peter and Jude speak of the false teachers, he mentions they are "impersonating" true teachers. Paul states that Satan Himself, and his "ministers" are able to
"transform themselves into angels of light".

Note what Jude says about these teachers though (he also calls them "false apostles"):

"These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit". (Jude 19)

They DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT---meaning they are NOT SAVED.

In Acts it also mentions those who were attempting to cast out demons in the name of Jesus.  In this case the demon attacked them.  But this shows us it is possible to do things
"In the name of Jesus" without really being ONE OF HIS.

"Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.”   Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?
” (Acts 19: 13-15)

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 11:43:30 »



Offline larry2

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #75 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 11:52:43 »
Would any of you think that with the prevailing thoughts of even being saved in some manner by water baptism, shouldn't there would be a special emphasis to it?

1Co 1:14  I (Paul) thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (How are these people to ever become believers?)

And then there are many that think they must experience whatever occurred to anyone else must happen to them. When any of you were baptized, did anyone here hear a voice from heaven saying in Mat 3:17,  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #75 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 11:52:43 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #76 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:01:52 »
Larry, why would we hear a voice from heaven stating this is my son in whom I am well pleased? Did the 3000 when they received the indwelling gift following their baptism?

Also, a preacher gifted by God to preach the Gospel even today in our congregation does very frw baptisms. I don’t for a minute believe Peter baptised many if any of the 3000.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:09:28 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #77 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:42:57 »
Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee,
        that thou shouldest know his will, and SEE that Just One, and shouldest HEAR the voice of his MOUTH.
Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?
       arise,
       and be baptized, and wash away thy sins 
       calling on the name of the Lord.

PAUL WOULD HAVE BEEN A BELIEVETH NOT OR A TRAITOR IF HE DIDN'T PREACH BAPTISM.  THE EVANGELISTS SHOULD PREACH AND THEN GO ON AND LET THE LOCAL PEOPLE DO THE BAPTISM.

Why would anyone baptize if Paul didn't command it?
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:48:43 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline larry2

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #78 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:43:58 »
Larry, why would we hear a voice from heaven stating this is my son in whom I am well pleased? Did the 3000 when they received the indwelling gift following their baptism?

Also, a preacher gifted by God to preach the Gospel even today in our congregation does very frw baptisms. I don’t for a minute believe Peter baptised many if any of the 3000.
Good question Jaime. Just putting forth some things to get people thinking as to what water baptism is, does, and has to do with our salvation.

In context, Romans Chapter Ten has to do with Israel today, and Paul said in Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why didn't Paul say that someone had to call upon the name of the Lord, and also be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Or what about what Col 3:17,  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus (Instead). There are a multitude of thoughts concerning baptism.  ::smile::

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #78 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:43:58 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #79 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:52:29 »
Quote
In context, Romans Chapter Ten has to do with Israel today, and Paul said in Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I say it again: THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH.  Paul includes all of the things that SAVE and CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD is done ONLY at baptism.

The same Paul repeated the command from Jesus who is now in the state of HOLY SPIRIT.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Offline fish153

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #80 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:52:57 »
What I find extremely interesting in Paul's statement is this:

"besides, I know not whether I baptized any other".  In other words, he doesn't remember if he baptized anyone but those he named.

Think about that for a moment. I give you a hypothetical question.  If you saved someone from drowning would you remember it?  Maybe you
saved (5) people from drowning during your life----would you remember them?  I think you would.

So, if Baptism is so important to salvation don't you think Paul would REMEMBER who he baptized?  I personally think he would.  But that's
just my opinion of course.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #81 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:58:06 »
Paul's job was to PREACH THE GOSPEL which DEMANDED being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ. PAUL planted BUT APOLLOS WATERED.

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #82 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:00:58 »
Good question Jaime. Just putting forth some things to get people thinking as to what water baptism is, does, and has to do with our salvation.

In context, Romans Chapter Ten has to do with Israel today, and Paul said in Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why didn't Paul say that someone had to call upon the name of the Lord, and also be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Or what about what Col 3:17,  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus (Instead). There are a multitude of thoughts concerning baptism.  ::smile::

Larry, as I have stated many times there is no one verse that stands alone in my opinion. We have to take the whole message as portrayed in the NT. There is no such thing as a single alpha verse in my view. the whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord verses, the believe by itself verses, the repent and have everlasting life verses, the believe and be baptized verses, the repent and be baptized verses, ALL apply. It's a cumulative story, not a case of "Aha, see here this verse says such and such, therefore............" No salvation verse nullifies others, but they build ON each other for the whole picture. The Bible is not in my opinion a collection of proof texts, but a story built one precept upon another. I hope that makes sense.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:20:05 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #83 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:06:23 »
HERE IS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST AND PAUL'S ABSOLUTE TEST OF SALVATION. PETER SAYS THAT BAPTISM SAVES SO YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT PETER WAS LYING


Offline MeMyself

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #84 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:07:21 »
Paul's job was to PREACH THE GOSPEL which DEMANDED being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ. PAUL planted BUT APOLLOS WATERED.

And yet...we still are not told when Christ's disciples or Paul were water baptized.  I wonder why, sincerely.

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:07:37 »
What I find extremely interesting in Paul's statement is this:

"besides, I know not whether I baptized any other".  In other words, he doesn't remember if he baptized anyone but those he named.

Think about that for a moment. I give you a hypothetical question.  If you saved someone from drowning would you remember it?  Maybe you
saved (5) people from drowning during your life----would you remember them?  I think you would.

So, if Baptism is so important to salvation don't you think Paul would REMEMBER who he baptized?  I personally think he would.  But that's
just my opinion of course.

Obviously to Paul and most preachers I know, preaching the Gospel IS the most important thing. As I have said, I don't know many preachers who baptize many at all. Baptisms in our "tribe" are typically done by friends or family members.

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:08:49 »
And yet...we still are not told when Christ's disciples or Paul were water baptized.  I wonder why, sincerely.

I don't know. Would it make a difference if we were told? It didn't change the message to the rest of us did it? Besides, we DO know that Paul was baptized in Acts 22 in order to wash away his sins calling upon the Lord. Same thing Peter told us about baptism being the appeal to God for a clean conscience in 1 Peter 3:21.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:11:49 by Jaime »

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:12:15 »
I don't know. Would it make a difference if we were told? It didn't change the message to the rest of us did it?

I kinda think it does...if, like Kenneth is saying, that it DEMANDS being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ; why is there not one scripture of when that took place for them?  They were His disciples, according to what we read, for following Him when He called them...

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #88 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:16:02 »
I kinda think it does...if, like Kenneth is saying, that it DEMANDS being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ; why is there not one scripture of when that took place for them?  They were His disciples, according to what we read, for following Him when He called them...

The Bible is not an all inclusive chronicle of every event of the time. My assumption is if they were preaching that message, they would have certainly been baptized or "qualified" in some way directly by Christ himself. Not unlike the thief on the cross, though in my opinion the thief's story is irrelevant to the baptism argument because the command to be baptized had not been given yet, by the risen Christ.

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #89 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:20:05 »
The Apostles were Disciples because JESUS picked them and taught them everything that was to be taught.

No one is a Citizen in the Kingdom of Christ until after Pentecost when the obeyed JESUS commands for remitting sins which gave THEM a holy spirit. They they could be a Disciple in this last creation by Jesus reserved unto fire.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations,
         BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 TEACHING them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
         and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

JESUS is the promised Holy Spirit Comforter after He returned at Pentecost to be the ONLY Teacher over His Body or Assembly as a SCHOOL OF THE WORD ONLY.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:32:49 »
The Bible is not an all inclusive chronicle of every event of the time.

Yeah...I get that...but it seems that God wouldn't've left out something that was a demand in order to be called a disciple of His...He called them His when they obeyed His call to follow Him.  It seems like if baptism is THE thing that makes one His disciple, we'd for sure would have been told when His were baptized...at least to me anyway.

Quote
My assumption is if they were preaching that message, they would have certainly been baptized or "qualified" in some way directly by Christ himself. Not unlike the thief on the cross, though in my opinion the thief's story is irrelevant to the baptism argument because the command to be baptized had not been given yet, by the risen Christ.

I don't assume a thief would have been baptized, or cared at all about the things of God, but Christ promised him Paradise at the man's asking it of Him.

Offline fish153

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:47:20 »
Kenneth said----

>>>Paul's job was to PREACH THE GOSPEL which DEMANDED being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ. PAUL planted BUT APOLLOS WATERED.<<<

I think you and Jaime are missing my point. Of course it was Paul's job to preach the Gospel.  But if baptism is SO IMPORTANT, and a major step in the salvation
process don't you think Paul would REMEMBER whom he PERSONALLY BAPTIZED?

Again, a hypothetical:  Billy Graham PREACHED to millions of people. Could he tell you whom and how many he led to the Lord? No--most likely not.  But if Billy
only baptized (5) people in his life, and he KNEW he had had a PERSONAL hand in completing their salvation, do you think he would REMEMBER these people?  I do.

That's the point I'm making. And seriously, I think that is WHY that sentence is in the Bible. It's there to make us THINK.

To clarify a bit: If baptism is critically important to salvation, and Paul baptized (5) people, I think he would remember whom he baptized.  if Baptism is not critical to salvation, then Paul could
easily forget whom he had baptized.  I hope that makes what i am saying a bit more clear.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:07:31 by fish153 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #92 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:56:05 »
[quote author=MeMyself link=topic=99024.msg1055097625#msg1055097625

I don't assume a thief would have been baptized, or cared at all about the things of God, but Christ promised him Paradise at the man's asking it of Him.
[/quote]

Yes, Christ could do whatever he wanted with whoever. And of course as I said, the command to be baptized had not been given. That occurred by Christ himself AFTER he was risen.

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #93 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:58:17 »
Yeah...I get that...but it seems that God wouldn't've left out something that was a demand in order to be called a disciple of His...He called them His when they obeyed His call to follow Him.  It seems like if baptism is THE thing that makes one His disciple, we'd for sure would have been told when His were baptized...at least to me anyway.


I am not saying baptism is THE thing, but it is one of the things scripture commands of us, and we are told it is for remission of sin and the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. The important thing was the message the disciples preached, not that their baptism or not was recorded, in my opinion.

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #94 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:04:57 »
Kenneth said----

>>>Paul's job was to PREACH THE GOSPEL which DEMANDED being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ. PAUL planted BUT APOLLOS WATERED.<<<

I think you and Jaime are missing my point. Of course it was Paul's job to preach the Gospel.  But if baptism is SO IMPORTANT, and a major step in the salvation
process don't you think Paul would REMEMBER whom he PERSONALLY BAPTIZED


Again, a hypothetical:  Billy Graham PREACHED to millions of people. Could he tell you whom and how many he led to the Lord? No--most likely not.  But if Billy
only baptized (5) people in his life, and he KNEW he had had a PERSONAL hand in completing their salvation, do you think he would REMEMBER these people?  I do.

That's the point I'm making. And seriously, I think that is WHY that sentence is in the Bible. It's there to make us THINK.

It is my understanding that Billy Graham never took responsibility for baptizing the thousands he preached to.

I think the sentence is in the Bible for the reason I stated. Preachers preach and most times others do the baptizing. In my view baptism is important but the thing that gets my attention is when the light comes on and they realize they need a savior. God does the work in revealing truth in the word and also IN baptism, we only get to participate. I remember the people I baptized, because frankly there wasn't that many, but I also am not a preacher of any prolific manner. The salvations I participated in were totally God's hand. The planter of the seed is so because he was called..........by God. Paul's calling and Billy Graham's calling was to preach. Also we read where Paul had a problem with people claiming to be "of Paul" or "of Silas". He didn't want that additional distraction if people were going to be that shallow.


« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:11:14 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #95 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:07:38 »
The Thief on the cross was a thief.  He lived and died before Baptism became the SEPARATING MARK between the believeths or those who COMPLY and the believest nots or traitors, enemies of Jesus.

Jesus told the Thief that He would be with him in The Thief on the cross was a thief.  He lived and died before Baptism became the SEPARATING MARK between the believeths or those who COMPLY and the believest nots or traitors, enemies of Jesus.

Jesus told the Thief that He would be with him in Gethsemane or GARDEN and not heaven.

There might have been dozens of converts?
3000 at one time. Maybe just a few baptizers. Who is keeping count.  I was in a bunch of about 10 and I don't know that he knew my name.  You cannot discount Paul's connection between OBEDIENCE by being baptized and THEN BEING FREE FROM SIN by judging his memory.

If terrorists were after my life I might not remember MY NAME


or GARDEN and not heaven.

« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:11:20 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline fish153

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #96 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:09:02 »
Jaime----

I added to my post below to clarify what I am saying.  Here is the point:

To clarify a bit: If baptism is critically important to salvation, and Paul baptized (5) people, I think he would remember whom he baptized.  if Baptism is not critical to salvation, then Paul could
easily forget whom he had baptized.  I hope that makes what i am saying a bit more clear.

Thanks

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #97 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:15:14 »
I assume Paul was not concerned about who baptized them because in the early church, it was always done immediately by someone. It didn't matter if the "high Mocus" did the baptizing or not. I hope THAT makes what I am saying clearer.

As a followup, I do without doubt think my tribe has overemphasized and singled out baptism too much, even to the extent of making it seemingly THE thing and it isn't. And I'm saying that not to say it's not important, but it ain't the WHOLE thing. Without belief you are just getting wet. That point has not been always understood in my tribe admittedly. It IS part of God's prescription. I woulda done it differently if it was left to me.  ::smile::
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:18:34 by Jaime »

Offline fish153

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #98 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:18:33 »
jaime----

Thanks for the post and explaining what you meant!   ::smile::

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #99 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:20:06 »
You are welcome Fish. Thank you for your well thought out posts!

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #100 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:21:26 »
If Jesus had said "raise your right hand and you will be saved or sinless" a major industry would have grown up including almost all of "christendom" who would establish great universities explaining why raising your right hand proved that you are a LEGALISTIC RACAITE."

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #101 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:23:52 »
I kinda think it does...if, like Kenneth is saying, that it DEMANDS being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ; why is there not one scripture of when that took place for them?  They were His disciples, according to what we read, for following Him when He called them...

Jesus demanded it.  Trying to sidestep *His* words is fruitless.

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
[20]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Offline MeMyself

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #102 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:43:38 »
Jesus demanded it.  Trying to sidestep *His* words is fruitless.

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
[20]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 ::doh:: I'm not attempting to side step anything.


Offline MeMyself

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #103 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:45:50 »
I am not saying baptism is THE thing, but it is one of the things scripture commands of us, and we are told it is for remission of sin and the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.

 ::smile:: I know that you aren't, Jaime...it was Kenneth's posts I was speaking to.

Quote
The important thing was the message the disciples preached, not that their baptism or not was recorded, in my opinion.

I agree that its the more important thing too.  I always enjoy dialoging with you...even when we don't agree, things are respectful.  Thanks for that!  ::tippinghat::

Offline Jaime

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Re: SALVATION?
« Reply #104 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:46:03 »
Yes TC. The only way to make disciples is to teach them and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, or that was Christ's plan anyway.