Author Topic: Salvation is to the Individual  (Read 1754 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #35 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:42:51 »
So you have sliced and diced what happened in Acts 2. 

Now square that with Cornelius and company apparently receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized.
The story of Cornelius and company presents itself as being an abnormal happening.  I don't think much more is required than to point that out.

Jarrod

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #36 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:46:19 »
Red I believe the Spirit draws us and the heart pricking of the 3000 was the Spirit at work drawing them. When they asked what must we do, Peter told them, repent and be baptized FOR remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (not BECAUSE OF). The Spirit was drawing or working on them, but they were not indwelled with the Holy Spirit yet. That comes when they put on Christ in baptism and contact the cleansing blood of Christ, the agent of remission of sin. They were heart pricked or drawn yes, but not reborn or saved yet. Their Godly sorrow was initiated because of being told they had crucified the long awaited Messiah. To any Jew, especially in a group of the first century, this was a staggering accusation.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:49:48 by Jaime »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:48:12 »
Was there a doubt? Mark 16:16 was Jesus's words of what he knew was coming. In vs 15, He wasn't talking to them about John's baptism. It was a restatement of Mathew 28:19 or the great commission, just before he ascended.

"Baptized for remission of sins" is John's Baptism.  The baptism in the New Covenant is "baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."  Acts 2:38, it's still in thar!

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:51:12 »
Being born again is being saved.
Still not quite right.

"Saved" isn't an event that happens at one point in time.  That event - being born again via water baptism - is properly called regeneration.

Salvation is something bigger.  It's a state of being.  One enters salvation at the time of regeneration, and so it makes sense to say that someone is 'saved' at that time.  But afterwards they remain in that state of salvation for (hopefully) the rest of their life.  At the end of their life, the work of salvation is accomplished (by God, not man).

"He who endures to the end shall be saved."

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:51:12 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:53:05 »
"Baptized for remission of sins" is John's Baptism.  The baptism in the New Covenant is "baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."  Acts 2:38, it's still in thar!
Acts 2:38 is also remission in my Bible.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:53:05 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #40 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:57:57 »
Remission of sin IS forgiveness of sin or cleansing of sin. Our sin problem is resolved, by the grace of God.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:10:46 by Jaime »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #41 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:10:42 »
Remission of sin IS forgiveness of sin or cleansing of sin.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38

Your quote forgot "in Jesus name."  Baptism without being "in Jesus name" is John's baptism.

Remember Acts 19. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #42 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:13:44 »
The same baptism the 3000 got as well as Cornelius's family AFTER their tongues episode when they were baptized in Jesus' name.

I have always assumed that John's baptism was pointless or even moot after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #43 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:16:15 »
"Saved" isn't an event that happens at one point in time.
There is a time when the sinner, dead in his trespasses and sins, becomes alive together with Christ.  I would call that being saved; and I would say that happens at one point in time. specifically when the believer repents and is baptized in the name of his Lord Jesus Christ. At that point in time one is justified (has his sins forgiven], is credited with righteousness for his faith, and has his punishment for sins paid for by the blood of Christ and receives the indwelling Holy Spirit.  To me that is the essence of being born again in water and Spirit. It is true that salvation is, like forgiveness, a state of being, but there is a point in time when that state of being actually begins. Born again is justified, regenerated and (initially sanctified.

When Jesus said that "unless one is born again he cannot see [enter] the kingdom of God", the clear implication is that if one is born again then he CAN see [enter] the kingdom of God.  Clearly one who has not been justified, regeneration and [initially] sanctified cannot see [enter] the kingdom of God. That is born again is one and the same as justified, regenerated and [initially] sanctified, i.e., saved.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #43 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:16:15 »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #44 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:20:49 »
I have always assumed that John's baptism was pointless or even moot after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
That is sort of the point of the passage in Acts 19:1-6. I don't know that I would count it as pointless, but it certainly wasn't the whole story.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #45 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 15:23:47 »
Yes, there was still a time of transition of those being taught. Things didn't swap over immediately I suppose. At any rate, John's baptism was incomplete. It's purpose was to LEAD to a more perfect baptism.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #46 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 20:03:05 »
So you have sliced and diced what happened in Acts 2. 
Now square that with Cornelius and company apparently receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized.
Answer me this.... Which functioning of the spirit was being refereed to the spirit within or the spirit upon for there is a biblical difference if you care to better understand and the scriptures will clear all doubt that each has a different purpose. Acts 10 makes it clear that the spirit coming upon Cornelius was to show the Jews that it is time to bring in the gentiles to the kingdom. The coming upon Cornelius was not said to be an indwelling but  an empowering sign toward the Jews. Acts 10 is all about preparing the Jews including Peter to accept this reality. I do not see how anyone can read the chapter and not see the message.
That is why Peter commanded water baptism in the name of Christ to give the indwelling spirit.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #47 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 04:07:51 »
Answer me this.... Which functioning of the spirit was being refereed to the spirit within or the spirit upon for there is a biblical difference if you care to better understand and the scriptures will clear all doubt that each has a different purpose.
Yogi, there are rare occasions, which at the moment I can think of two, there could be more~Balaam's ass; and Saul in the OT, maybe more, it's early in the morning for me.

That being said, most of the time in the scriptures when God's Spirit came upon anyone, the same Spirit indwelled them, even with the case of Cornelius.
Quote from: Peter
Acts 10:47~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
Not only was the Spirit upon them, but within them, just as it was in the apostles, according to Peter's testimony.
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 20:03:05
The coming upon Cornelius was not said to be an indwelling but  an empowering sign toward the Jews.
Yogi, again, Cornelius had received the Spirit, way before Peter even arrived, the very reason as to why God sent him there...later on this point.

God by His Spirit had opened up the door of Salvation to the Gentiles and used Peter to bring the message of Jesus Christ, as a source of information to ground and establish these Gentiles believers and believers they were as we shall prove to any unbias person who does not have an agenda to protect to preserved his sect teaching.
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 20:03:05
Acts 10 is all about preparing the Jews including Peter to accept this reality.
Brother, God had already prepare Peter my letting down from heaven all manner of animals on a great platter for Peter to eat which was forbidden as a Jew to eat. Which animals within themselves are NOT unclean, but WAS TO ISRAEL, only to teach them a lesson of not following the world, but to be a separate people unto their God~ under the new covenant, ALL THINGS are acceptable to eat, as long as it is received with prayer and thanksgiving.
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 20:03:05
I do not see how anyone can read the chapter and not see the message.
Well, well, my friend, I'm thinking the same thing and have thought this for many years! I preached a sermon on "Cornelius the mystery man" in a small town in Batesville S.C. outside of Columbia back thirty-five plus years ago when I was much younger, saying some of the same things I just said.

Yogi, how can you and your good friends, who seem to love the scriptures, miss the truth from this wonderful chapter that God in His infinite wisdom chose to be part of the inspired holy scriptures is beyond me. Yogi, Cornelius was a born again child of God before he ever hear one word from the apostle Peter's lips! The evidence is stamped on just about every other scripture in Acts 10. 

Sad, but true that most Bible believers assume the new birth occurs when a person believes the gospel~and some like you and are baptized in water. But the Bible does not support these false assumptions.

In Acts chapter 10, Cornelius is a great example of a man who was born again BEFORE he ever heard the gospel, or even met Peter.

First, notice that before he met Peter or heard the gospel, Cornelius “feared God with all his house” (v.2). And from the Bible, we know that those who fear the Lord possess God’s salvation (Psalms 85:9); enjoy God’s mercy (Psalms 103:17), and please God (Psalms 147:11). Unsaved men do not fear God, impossible! (Romans 3:18; Psalms 36:1).

Second, see that Cornelius’ prayers were “come up for a memorial before God” (v.4), before he heard or believed the gospel through Peter. And Proverbs 15:29 teaches us plainly that God only hears the prayers of the righteous.

Third, observe that Peter acknowledged in verses 34-35 that God had already accepted Cornelius before Peter ever met him.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Not will be if he does this, that, etc.

From this brief consideration of Acts chapter 10, we conclude Cornelius was born again and in possession of eternal life before he ever heard the gospel or met Peter. Cornelius is a great Biblical example of what the Bible teaches regarding the new birth: it is based only on the will of God (John 1:13), it is necessary before a man can even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), and it is the washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of God (Titus 3:5).

Lost and wicked sinners do not accomplish their own new birth. Only when a man is already born again does he have any desire, like Cornelius, to hear and obey the gospel message (John 5:24, Ist Corinthians 2:14; and hundreds of more).
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 08:17:34 by RB »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #48 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 04:31:06 »
Yes, there was still a time of transition of those being taught. Things didn't swap over immediately I suppose. At any rate, John's baptism was incomplete. It's purpose was to LEAD to a more perfect baptism.
John's baptism was scriptural according to Paul:
Quote from: Paul
Acts 19:4~Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
John's baptism prepared folks for the coming of Christ~post Acts 2:38 has the promise of the Spirit given to as many as the Lord God should call by his grace.
Quote from: Peter
Acts 2:39~"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."
The gift to me is THE KNOWLEDGE OF the Holy Ghost, he may be there, yet without this knowledge, no one would know how to tap INTO this wonderful gift freely given on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

Those in Acts 19, had never heard if there be any Holy Ghost, they lack the KNOWLEDGE OF THIS GIFT which was promised to God's people in Christ's absence for them. John 14-16
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 08:19:40 by RB »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #49 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 04:56:59 »
I want to come back to comment on Replies: #36 Jaime; #38 Jarrod, and #43, 4WD who threw everything into the pot ( 4WD ) to create a " pot of death" for whoever eats thereof! I'm leaving to go out of town for most of the day, maybe later, maybe tomorrow.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #50 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 07:44:41 »
That being said, most of the time in the scriptures when God's Spirit came upon anyone, the same Spirit indwelled them, even with the case of Cornelius.
That is an assumption, and a bad one at that, that you cannot provide any scripture for.

With reference to Acts 10:47 you said,
Quote from: RB
Not only was the Spirit upon them, but within them, just as it was in the apostles, according to Peter's testimony.
The only thing that Peter could observe was that the empowering Holy Spirit had come upon the Gentiles giving them the power to speaking in tongues.  There is no way to ever observe the indwelling Holy Spirit. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
 
Quote from: RB
Yogi, again, Cornelius had received the Spirit, way before Peter even arrived, the very reason as to why God sent him there...later on this point.
Again an assumption that you cannot prove.  It comes from your own faulty soteriology, not from scripture.
Quote from: RB
Yogi, Cornelius was a born again child of God before he ever hear one word from the apostle Peter's lips! The evidence is stamped on just about every other scripture in Acts 10. 
Again with that really bad assumption.
Quote from: RB
Sad, but true that most Bible believers assume the new birth occurs when a person believes the gospel~and some like you and are baptized in water. But the Bible does not support these false assumptions.
Ah but the Bible does indeed support that truth.  Again and again.
Quote from: RB
In Acts chapter 10, Cornelius is a great example of a man who was born again BEFORE he ever heard the gospel, or even met Peter.
Again and again and again with the same very faulty assumption.
Quote from: RB
First, notice that before he met Peter or heard the gospel, Cornelius “feared God with all his house” (v.2). And from the Bible, we know that those who fear the Lord possess God’s salvation (Psalms 85:9); enjoy God’s mercy (Psalms 103:17), and please God (Psalms 147:11). Unsaved men do not fear God, impossible! (Romans 3:18; Psalms 36:1).
It is dangerous to try to carry forward the messages of salvation from the OT [under the Old Covenant] to the NT [under the New Covenant].  They are not the same.
Quote from: RB
Second, see that Cornelius’ prayers were “come up for a memorial before God” (v.4), before he heard or believed the gospel through Peter. And Proverbs 15:29 teaches us plainly that God only hears the prayers of the righteous.
There is a righteousness of man and there is a righteousness of God.  They are not the same thing. You should not confuse the two, but you do because of your adherence to the idiocy of Total Depravity. 
Quote from: RB
Third, observe that Peter acknowledged in verses 34-35 that God had already accepted Cornelius before Peter ever met him.
That doesn't mean that they have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ whom they have not yet heard.  Once again your adherence to the Total Depravity nonsense gets in the way of truth.
Quote from: RB
From this brief consideration of Acts chapter 10, we conclude Cornelius was born again and in possession of eternal life before he ever heard the gospel or met Peter. Cornelius is a great Biblical example of what the Bible teaches regarding the new birth: it is based only on the will of God (John 1:13), it is necessary before a man can even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), and it is the washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of God (Titus 3:5).
The washing [Greek noun - apolouo] of Titus 4:5 is the same as the washing away [Greek verb - loutron] of sins in baptism of Acts 22:16.
Quote from: RB
Lost and wicked sinners do not accomplish their own new birth. Only when a man is already born again does he have any desire, like Cornelius, to hear and obey the gospel message (John 5:24, Ist Corinthians 2:14; and hundreds of more).
Neither of those passages nor any others ever says such a thing. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is a condition for salvation, not the result of it. Faith comes not from being saved but rather by hearing the word about Christ, from hearing and obeying the gospel. Salvation is to "whoever believes and is baptized"

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #51 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 09:14:34 »
Red I believe the Spirit draws us and the heart pricking of the 3000 was the Spirit at work drawing them. When they asked what must we do, Peter told them, repent and be baptized FOR remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (not BECAUSE OF). The Spirit was drawing or working on them, but they were not indwelled with the Holy Spirit yet. That comes when they put on Christ in baptism and contact the cleansing blood of Christ, the agent of remission of sin. They were heart pricked or drawn yes, but not reborn or saved yet. Their Godly sorrow was initiated because of being told they had crucified the long awaited Messiah. To any Jew, especially in a group of the first century, this was a staggering accusation.
Let us consider John 6:44:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man can come to me~Jaime, it is very clear coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven.  See John 6:65  The issue at stake~clearly stated as a premise~is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (John 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (John 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (John 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65).

We have no more right to modify these words than Satan in Genesis 3:4.

Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total resurrection. There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man~you must give the man life. Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death, if we are to be faithful to God's word.

No man can come to me..... all men run to sin in hatred and rebellion against God. Paul’s first chapter is a terrible indictment of men and truth (Rom 1:18-32). He then used the scriptures to show the utter depravity of man (Rom 3:9-18). Luke’s record of Paul’s preaching at Antioch illustrated it (Acts 13:38-52). Natural man greatly opposes truth (Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19). There is no ability of heart or will for natural man to submit to the Son of God. It is not a matter of intellect or intelligence as much as depravity of the will.

There is no man, Jew or Gentile, able to understand such things (Romans 3:9-18). Therefore, no effort or method will help to bring an unregenerate man to Christ. Isaiah wrote that a change of environment cannot help sinful man (Isaiah 26:10). Jesus rejected even Lazarus returning from the dead as helpful (Luke 16:31). Jesus shortly suggested ascension back to heaven would not help (6:62-65). How much less profitable the foolish, heretical, and profane ideas of today! It is a terrible shame this verse and its doctrine and repetition are ignored (6:65).

It is the doctrine of total depravity, where any study of salvation must start. It results in many false salvation ideas by not rightly seeing man depraved. It results in a weak view of salvation where man can choose to save himself. It results in confusing God’s mighty work of regeneration or quickening. It results in a presumptuous idea that man has a free will to be manipulated. It results in decisional salvation where man is pushed and pulled to choose. It results in ridiculous methods the end justifies the means~for salvation.

It results in false confidence in salvation by ignoring the role of good works. It results in missing God’s promise to regenerate His elect and convert them. It results in confounding the order of regeneration and conversion of sinners. It results in confidence in oneself or in man rather than in God’s free grace.

Free will? God’s will is free, but even He cannot will sinfully (Rom 9:14). The evident proof of depravity is repeated in light of ascension (6:62-65). If all are depraved and rebels against God, will any come to Christ and how? The differences among men are incredible, but they are not by innate ability. It is not that some men are born better than others by nature … but by grace.

Except the Father~The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the key word is except~elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Romans 5:8; 6:17; Ist Corinthians 1:27; 3:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 2:4; 2nd Thess 2:13; Titus 3:4).

God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference.... every bit of it~ and shall get all the praise.

Except, unless and until, a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5). This explanation and condemnation of the audience is repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (John 1:13; 3:8).

There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration. Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14).

Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Galatians 1:15-16 cp Ist Timothy 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Romans 11:28).

There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Ephesians 1:17; 3:14-19). All glory to God the Father … giving us to Christ (6:37) … drawing us (6:44).

The effect of being drawn is to come to Christ and believe on Him (6:40,47). There is no halfway station in between as some believe!  The result of God’s gracious work is in the last day~the resurrection of life.

Draw him~John already introduced and explained this event (John 1:13; 3:3,5,8; 5:24-25).

The word draw has many meanings, and it is Bible context that must determine. The word draw is used here due to the emphasis on coming to Jesus Christ.

Bible doctrine requires this drawing to be God’s powerful grace changing the heart and mind of man to be willing by a new nature to hate sin and love Christ. The synonyms or defining words are drag, haul, move, pull, tow, tug, etc. The change is birth, quickening, regeneration, creation, resurrection, renew. These inspired terms require divine choice, divine power, man’s passivity, instantaneous act, giving of life, deny any creature activity, creature death.

The terms exclusively require God’s sovereign choice and man is passive. Our quickening took the same power as raising Jesus (Ephesians 1:19-20; 2:1-3). John gives illustrative examples of draw (2:8-9; 4:7,11,15; 18:10; 21:6,11). God must open hearts for a person to attend to Bible preaching (Acts 16:14).

This drawing cannot be mere attraction, invitation, or persuasion of the sinner. Unregenerate cannot be attracted or persuaded of Him; they will reject Him. The will of the flesh is not involved, as John made very clear early (Jn 1:13). Preaching only has value to those already born again by the power of God.

How was Saul drawn to Christ? By pricking? Blindness? Revelation? But all these things only work on a regenerate man, thus the need to rightly divide.

Drawing IS regeneration~it is not what some may term a "halfway house" where you make the final decision for Christ.

The sum of what I want to say: Drawing is not bringing a sinner to a point where he MUST DECIDE for Christ or not, it is not a halfway decisional crossroad where he must make a decision to be saved or not~such teaching is man's version of Jesus' teaching in John 6. Even considering the verse of itself, it clearly states no man can come EXCEPT the Father draws him, proving NOT ALL are drawn by the Father! Drawing is SALVATION per John 6:64,65!


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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #52 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 09:33:22 »
The only thing that Peter could observe was that the empowering Holy Spirit had come upon the Gentiles giving them the power to speaking in tongues.  There is no way to ever observe the indwelling Holy Spirit. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
4WD, never said we can observe when a person is born of the Spirit which is the way the Lord used those words, you used them differently and unscriptually~but what's new in that respect?

Yet, we can see the evidence of the indwelling Spirit by its FRUITS! Per Galatians 5...and Cornelius had them BEFORE he ever heard Peter speak a single word! Peter brought a message of practical salvation by increasing his knowledge of Christ, of which he had very little.

The rest of your post was a pitiful attempt to prove me wrong, you must do better than the one you did. No pun intended, just stating a fact.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #53 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 09:44:36 »
Also, Peter suggested he be water baptized in Jesus' name, which is for remission of sin and the gift of the INDWELLING Spirit, something Cornelius was in need of or at least Peter thought so. My view is God uses the Spirit upon to demonstrate something or to accomplish a purpose. Just like on the Day of Pentecost. All the Jews from every nation heard the disciples in their own native tongue. A miracle for a purpose. Otherwise, one must assume the Cornelius incident flip flopped the whole salvation paradigm. I don't believe it did.
Here is what Peter said:

46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

This is not clear whether it is Spirit upon ONLY, or if it includes Spirit within.  And the only way that the "incident flip flopped the whole salvation paradigm" is if that paradigm was not correct to begin with.

My opinion is we put too much emphasis on timing and order in coming up with our salvation formulae. The bible never gives us any such list.  I tend to go with Joel 2.32 which is quoted in Acts 2.21 and in Romans 10.13:  "All who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #54 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 10:50:39 »
There is a time when the sinner, dead in his trespasses and sins, becomes alive together with Christ.  I would call that being saved; and I would say that happens at one point in time.
The word of God calls this regeneration by the Spirit of God~which could take place after conception, and before the spirit leaves one's body~at any given situation one could possibly think of~from a coma state, sleeping, you name it one could be doing it, since man is totally passive and God alone the using his almighty power to create a new man within the sinners giving that sinner the power to hear, see, and believe the gospel.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 15:16:15
specifically when the believer repents and is baptized in the name of his Lord Jesus Christ.
At this stage, he has LIFE, or else he could not do spiritual acts pleasing to God, IMPOSSIBLE!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSt
Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Why are you teaching doctrine contrary to the Holy Spirit's own testimony of man in the flesh, or unregenerated? You should repent.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 15:16:15
At that point in time one is justified (has his sins forgiven], is credited with righteousness for his faith, and has his punishment for sins paid for by the blood of Christ and receives the indwelling Holy Spirit.
So what are you going to do with such scriptures as :
Quote
Romans 5:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
I can help you out if you would allow me to do so~Romans 5:25 is speaking of our legal justification, whereas Romans 5:1 is speaking of our practical justification~whereas, your quote is also speaking concerning when we were justified practically when we believe the gospel and obey it, which gave our spirits peace, joy, etc. I'm sure you will reject this, yet even your own confession goes AGAINST Romans 4:25 when actually BOTH could be said to be true, IF the proper sense was given to the word justified within the context in which we find the word.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 15:16:15
To me that is the essence of being born again in water and Spirit. It is true that salvation is, like forgiveness, a state of being, but there is a point in time when that state of being actually begins. Born again is justified, regenerated and (initially sanctified.
I got to come back at this point since it will take to much time to address this mess.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #55 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 11:08:17 »
Dave, the Spirit like the 3000 and myself received, the indwelling Spirit was given apparently without tongues. The Spirit upon was always given with tongues, whether it was specified as upon or not. Would you not agree that what happened with the disciples at Pentecost and with Cornelius was for a specific purpose to demonstrate something? The indwelling Spirit that the 3000 and I received was to empower us to live as Christ wanted us to. Without that I am certain my own spirit would be focused on many other things.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #56 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 11:44:28 »
Dave, the Spirit like the 3000 and myself received, the indwelling Spirit was given apparently without tongues.
Agreed.  Tongues is a sign of Spirit Upon.
Quote
The Spirit upon was always given with tongues, whether it was specified as upon or not.

Disagree.  Spirit upon could be any of the supernatural gifts.  Healing. Miracles. Prophecy. Words of wisdom or knowledge, etc.

And yes - at this point I part ways with my pentecostal roots.
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Would you not agree that what happened with the disciples at Pentecost and with Cornelius was for a specific purpose to demonstrate something?
Not really.  If the text does not specifically say that somewhere, it is an open question.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #57 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 11:56:44 »
Dave, the Spirit like the 3000 and myself received, the indwelling Spirit was given apparently without tongues. The Spirit upon was always given with tongues, whether it was specified as upon or not. Would you not agree that what happened with the disciples at Pentecost and with Cornelius was for a specific purpose to demonstrate something? The indwelling Spirit that the 3000 and I received was to empower us to live as Christ wanted us to. Without that I am certain my own spirit would be focused on many other things.

Yes, Acts 2:38 was a one time thing.   ::pokingwithstick::

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #58 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 12:03:10 »

And yes - at this point I part ways with my pentecostal roots. Not really.  If the text does not specifically say that somewhere, it is an open question.

Dave, readers of the NT must conclude that there are two different types of Spirit manifestation for a particular purpose OR that some people just get short changed on the tongues thing!  ::smile::

« Last Edit: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 12:05:56 by Jaime »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #59 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 12:09:30 »
Yes, Acts 2:38 was a one time thing.   ::pokingwithstick::

Not as far as Peter was concerned. Don't you reckon Cornelius was later baptized in Christ's name? Plus others in the NT?

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #60 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 12:45:29 »
Yes, Acts 2:38 was a one time thing. 
The only things that I see as "one time" from Acts 2 are:

1 - someone bringing 3000 people to faith with only a 5 minute sermon; and 
2 - "Tongues" being manifested in known languages. 


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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #61 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 13:07:00 »
I always felt like at Pentcost it was a miracle of the ears, where different people HEARD the Disciples in their own language, rather than everyone speaking in everyone else's particular language. No scriptural backup, but just wondered out loud.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #62 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 13:08:39 »
Dave I have heard it argued here in the past that there was not enough water in Jerusalem to baptize 3000 people. Wasn't there large pools around and in the vicinity of the temple?

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #63 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 13:33:35 »
Dave I have heard it argued here in the past that there was not enough water in Jerusalem to baptize 3000 people. Wasn't there large pools around and in the vicinity of the temple?

They were sprinkled. 

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #64 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 13:59:42 »
Dave I have heard it argued here in the past that there was not enough water in Jerusalem to baptize 3000 people. Wasn't there large pools around and in the vicinity of the temple?
Yes.  One report said that close to 1500 mikva pools had been discovered near the temple mount.  They were fed (in part) by underground springs.  The priests who worked the temple had to frequently immerse themselves to remain ritually pure (tahor). When I was there in '18 I saw a few of them (less than 20) and I am not sure where the others would have been.

No TC - they were not sprinkled.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #65 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:08:54 »
I always felt like at Pentecost it was a miracle of the ears, where different people HEARD the Disciples in their own language, rather than everyone speaking in everyone else's particular language. No scriptural backup, but just wondered out loud.
That's funny~ ::smile:: You just may have a good point Jaime.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:18:01 by RB »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #66 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:16:57 »
Dave I have heard it argued here in the past that there was not enough water in Jerusalem to baptize 3000 people. Wasn't there large pools around and in the vicinity of the temple?
If the scriptures said they were, then we know they were........... let the skeptics mock on as they head toward the lake of fire.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #67 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:48:40 »
Quote from: 4WD Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 15:16:15
To me that is the essence of being born again in water and Spirit. It is true that salvation is, like forgiveness, a state of being, but there is a point in time when that state of being actually begins. Born again is justified, regenerated and (initially sanctified.

To me that is the essence of being born again in water and Spirit~ Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever say we were born again "in" water. Now, I do not believe you are bold enough to go to John 3:5 to attempt to prove your position~even there you cannot find the same wording that you desire to find.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST and Nicodemus' question back to him, and then Jesus plainly stated what he meant by being born again
John 3:3-5~Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
4WD, "IN" is not used by Jesus as you used it, but of, and only then in answering directly Nicodemus' question concerning reentering into his mother's womb and being born AGAIN, as though that would change the SINFUL FLESH that he was born with from father Adam.

there is a point in time when that state of being actually begins~Agreed and that time can be anywhere from conception to just before the spirit leaves our body, with John the Baptist and the thief on the cross as the two prime examples of this truth. Neither of which was ever baptized in water as far as we know concerning John the Baptist~ the thief certainly was not since he would not have been considered a candidate for baptism while still living in his sins.

Born again is justified, regenerated and (initially sanctified~Actually sanctification initially was from the foundation of the world!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 1:4~According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
Grace and mercy was given to us IN CHRIST before the world begun~that's the only way he could loved us even while we were at enmity against him.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:1-5~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"
Once loved, always loved! The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. All of God's children said AMEN, and AMEN.

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #68 on: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:54:51 »
When Jesus said that "unless one is born again he cannot see [enter] the kingdom of God", the clear implication is that if one is born again then he CAN see [enter] the kingdom of God.  Clearly one who has not been justified, regeneration and [initially] sanctified cannot see [enter] the kingdom of God.
Well, now, that's the message that I have been saying over and over again, so....I agree with these words....first regeneration, then faith, seeing, hearing, and obeying.....all follow regeneration of the Spirit of God. 
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 04, 2022 - 14:58:11 by RB »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #69 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 05:27:40 »
Still not quite right.
In one true biblical sense it is correct~salvation is used in the scriptures as being saved from the condemnation of sin~that's a salvation that is completed when one is born of the Spirit of God, born again because Christ paid for their sins by being their surety before the law of God and its Righteous Judge.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:51:12
"Saved" isn't an event that happens at one point in time.
Well, in one sense it very well could be, while we agree and have contended over the years we have been on grace-centered that the words saved/save/salvation are used in different senses, and there is a sense which every child of God experiences a salvation like Paul did on the road to Damascus where we went from living in sin to serving God and defending his cause even over our past life, etc. We have contended that those words are used in five different sense, which we will not go over again. We all have experience growing in grace and knowledge of the truth, which is nothing more than being saved in a practical sense from error to the truth~I do not believe the same things I did went I first started out around fifty years ago when I first accepted what I heard from those who first taught me the word of God. There are many things I no longer hold to~which is a salvation from error to truth, which we all will experience as long as we live in the flesh.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:51:12
That event - being born again via water baptism - is properly called regeneration.
Not in the holy scriptures is this so, maybe in certain sects around this world. Water baptism is not regeneration, thereby salvation from sin and condemnation.

In Mark 16;16 there is a salvation through water baptism, but it is strictly practical in nature, not in a vital sense. We have our own thread on this site dealing exclusively with this one scripture, so I will not said anymore on this point for now. Maybe I can find it and post the link here later. 
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2022 - 14:51:12
Salvation is something bigger.  It's a state of being.  One enters salvation at the time of regeneration, and so it makes sense to say that someone is 'saved' at that time.  But afterwards they remain in that state of salvation for (hopefully) the rest of their life.  At the end of their life, the work of salvation is accomplished (by God, not man).

"He who endures to the end shall be saved."
Bigger, or used in five different senses in the scriptures, whatever, it still is NOT limited to a one-time experience.

A common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?

Let’s ask Paul the question.

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

 

     
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