Author Topic: Salvation is to the Individual  (Read 1749 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #70 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 05:33:31 »
That comes when they put on Christ in baptism and contact the cleansing blood of Christ, the agent of remission of sin.
I would like to come back and make a post or two on this one subject: The blood of Christ~where do we contact the blood of Christ, or in what sense are we saved by the blood of Christ?

Let me begin to work on this.....later.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #71 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 08:28:02 »
Yes I think this is a worthy topic for discussion. Hebrews 9:22 says, "Without shedding of blood there is no remission."  I John 1:7 tells us that "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." God, in choosing the cleansing agent for our sins, chose the very best that He had, the blood of His own Son. It is by the precious blood of our Lord, that we are cleansed from all of our sins. Revelation 1:5 says, "To Him who loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Yes, it is only by the blood of our Lord, that we get our sins washed away.

How do we come into contact with that cleansing blood, which our Lord shed in his death, in order to have our sins washed away? Romans 6:3 tells us how. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" Since Christ shed His blood in His death, when a person is baptized into our Lord's death, it is there that he comes into contact with the blood of Christ and his sins are then washed away. Baptism is the only means of reaching His death where His blood was shed, so we can have forgiveness of sins. So, when Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins," it was the blood of Christ that washed away Paul's sins when he was baptized. People should not focus on the water but should focus on the blood of Christ. Water is spiritually inert. It is only plain ol' H2O. The dying to self in submission and turning from our sins and burying the old self in baptism, we rise up out of the water a new creature as Christ rose up out of the tomb in his glorified body. water should not be the focus of baptism, but it is an essential part as commanded by our Lord. We must understand what God does IN the water of baptism, which is the work of Baptism, HIS redeeming work by his grace. Had I been asked to give my opinion; I might have been like Naaman and wanted a more "spectacular" means of how God should accomplish this.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 08:40:40 by Jaime »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #72 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 08:49:37 »
Yes I think this is a worthy topic for discussion. Hebrews 9:22 says, "Without shedding of blood there is no remission."  I John 1:7 tells us that "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." God, in choosing the cleansing agent for our sins, chose the very best that He had, the blood of His own Son. It is by the precious blood of our Lord, that we are cleansed from all of our sins. Revelation 1:5 says, "To Him who loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Yes, it is only by the blood of our Lord, that we get our sins washed away.

How do we come into contact with that cleansing blood, which our Lord shed in his death, in order to have our sins washed away? Romans 6:3 tells us how. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" Since Christ shed His blood in His death, when a person is baptized into our Lord's death, it is there that he comes into contact with the blood of Christ and his sins are then washed away. Baptism is the only means of reaching His death where His blood was shed, so we can have forgiveness of sins. So, when Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins," it was the blood of Christ that washed away Paul's sins when he was baptized. People should not focus on the water but should focus on the blood of Christ. Water is spiritually inert. It is only plain ol' H2O. The dying to self in submission and turning from our sins and burying the old self in baptism, we rise up out of the water a new creature as Christ rose up out of the tomb in his glorified body. water should not be the focus of baptism, but it is an essential part as commanded by our Lord. We must understand what God does IN the water of baptism, which is the work of Baptism, HIS redeeming work by his grace. Had I been asked to give my opinion; I might have been like Naaman and wanted a more "spectacular" means of how God should accomplish this.

No mention of faith.  Very weird.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #73 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 09:37:35 »
We of course are saved by grace through faith in Christ. To me faith is not under scrutiny, but a given. There is no such thing as faithless baptism. One can get wet without faith, but without faith no scriptural baptism takes place. Where we contact the blood of Christ as faithful Christians IS in dispute I would imagine and have heard in the past. But I should have included that, though I had no intention of regurgitating the entirety of the plan of salvation in my response about where we contact the blood of Christ. WHERE the blood of Christ is contacted is via God's plan and his grace. He does all the work. Man coming in total submission to baptism is purely a faith response.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 10:11:32 by Jaime »

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #73 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 09:37:35 »

Offline RB

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #74 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 14:25:11 »
We of course are saved by grace through faith in Christ. To me faith is not under scrutiny, but a given.
Jaime~actually faith is under scrutiny if it is applied to our faith, for neither water baptism, nor our faith is the means of our legal justification~for then I would be robbing Christ of his glory in him totally securing our redemption by his life, death ( shedding of his blood ) and his resurrection from the dead.
Quote from: My friend from the big state of Texas  Reply #73 on: Today at 09:37:35
There is no such thing as faithless baptism
Brother, that's a true statement. Only folks who are true believers can be baptized.
Quote from: My friend from the big state of Texas  Reply #73 on: Today at 09:37:35
He does all the work. Man coming in total submission to baptism is purely a faith response
You are beginning to sound a little like a Baptist........ ::smile::

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #74 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 14:25:11 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #75 on: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 14:43:37 »
Red, it is BOTH Christ's faith or more accurately "faithfulness" and of course our faith is involved in the acceptance of the free gift of grace. Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Our faith in Christ's faithfulness is a result in hearing the word of God and his redemptive solution to our sin problem. The work of our salvation is done. Will we by faith accept the priceless gift that we do not deserve, made available by Christ's faithfulness?

The question is not IF we have faith, everyone has faith. The atheist has faith that his rational reasoning has removed the possibility of God. He has faith in his intellectual ability. Others have faith in their abilities, skills, connections, friends, family and themselves. Everyone has faith. The question is where is our faith anchored? In WHOM do we put our trust.

James 2:24 indicates that we are NOT justified by faith alone. Who's faith?............OURS of course! If it were talking about Christ's faith or faithfulness alone would that not be adequate?
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 05, 2022 - 15:53:58 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #76 on: Thu Oct 06, 2022 - 07:04:44 »
To me that is the essence of being born again in water and Spirit~ Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever say we were born again "in" water.
You are correct, RB,  That was my mistake.  The Greek is "born of [ἐξ - ex] water and Spirit".  Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this.

However, that doesn't really change anything.  The water of John 3:1-15 is still the water of baptism.  There is no other interpretation that makes any sense whatsoever.  The idea of water as the amniotic fluid of physical birth is ludicrous. The key to understanding that is, it seems to me, to be in the concept of "again", i.e., that "...unless one is born again he cannot ...".  First, that some would argue that it is really "born from above" and not "born again" is shown to be false by Nicodemus' response.  He clearly understood Jesus' meaning to be "born again" as is shown by his question about entering a second time into his mother's womb and be born. And Jesus repeated being "born again" as a requirement in verse 7.  It should be pretty clear to all that Jesus is speaking, not about any physical rebirth, but a spiritual rebirth.  It is a spiritual rebirth OF water and Spirit.  I would also note that there is no definite article, "the", before either water or Spirit.  The Greek is simply "ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ Πνεύματος" [of water and Spirit].

That physical rebirth is not the issue here is apparent also from Jesus' statement in verse 6, namely, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Jesus is telling us here that the spirit of man comes from God, not from his parents.  The flesh of man comes from the flesh of his parents; the spirit of man comes from God.  Flesh begets flesh; Spirit begets spirit.

So what is the significance of being born again.  Clearly that indicates that there was a spirit born previously, namely when God formed the spirit of man in him at his birth (Zech 12:1). So why the need to be born again? The simple reason that the spirit needed to be born again is answered by Paul in Ephesians 2:1. He said, " And you were dead in the trespasses and sins". Here the death is spirit, not flesh. Thus, being dead, there is the need for the spirit to be raised up or born again. And that God did, according to Paul in Ephesians 2:5-6, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--  and raised us up with him..."  That is rebirth; that is being born again.  The spirit is once again made alive as it once was before becoming dead in trespasses and sins.

Then the question is when does that happen.  When does "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us" (Eph 2:4), make us alive again, raising us up together with Christ? Paul said,  "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:3-4)   That is "BORN AGAIN".

Paul repeated that in Colossians 2:  "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, " (vv 11-13).  That also is "BORN AGAIN".

Offline RB

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #77 on: Thu Oct 06, 2022 - 10:30:02 »
I'm having trouble with my computer, I might need to take this slow boy into the shop and see what is wrong. It's doing some tricks on me, and I'm too old to make it stop.  ::smile::  Maybe I will figure this out before the day ends, good chance I will not. I wish Alan were closer to me~my grandson who is my "go to" guy is on his honeymoon and I'm not going to call him...... he's probably got a DO NOT disturb hanging on his door.  ::smile::

Offline GB

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #78 on: Sat Oct 08, 2022 - 12:16:03 »
Born again is not a pre-requisite for salvation.  Born again is salvation.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Baptism seems to be a pre-requisite. I agree with Jarrod on this one.





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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #78 on: Sat Oct 08, 2022 - 12:16:03 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Salvation is to the Individual
« Reply #79 on: Sat Oct 08, 2022 - 21:22:51 »
Let’s ask Paul the question.

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).
I don't think you got that all right.

I'll give you Titus 3:5 and Romans 13:11, but...

2Tim 1:9 says that Jesus saved us according to the grace that was given before the world began.  That doesn't mean the saving happened in eternity past.

1Tim 1:15 says Jesus came into the world for the purpose of saving sinners.  That doesn't mean that the saving happened at the moment of His birth.

1Tim 4:16 has Paul telling Timothy to remain in his doctrine, and if he does both himself and others will be saved.  This isn't about Paul.

Jarrod

 

     
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