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Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #35 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 10:07:50 »
I guess I'm missing any kind of example of "Pray this prayer, asking Jesus into your heart, and you will be saved," in how the gospel was preached and how folks were told to respond to it in the Bible.

You won't find it.  Or the 5 Steps.  You will those who live by faith in Christ in the bible.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #35 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 10:07:50 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #36 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 10:09:18 »
I guess I'm missing any kind of example of "Pray this prayer, asking Jesus into your heart, and you will be saved," in how the gospel was preached and how folks were told to respond to it in the Bible.

It isn't in the Bible.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #36 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 10:09:18 »

Offline davidandme

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #37 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 13:18:12 »
http://media04.sa-media.com/sermons019/52906154239.mp3

Sermon Audio has this to say about this sermon:

Quote
This is a Shockingly Powerful & Biblical message
preached to about 5,000 youth in a day when youth
are appealed to through shallow and worldly means.

At one point in this sermon the 5,000 Youth are
clapping and yelling BUT THEN the preacher makes
a comment that CHANGES THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE TO
WHERE YOU COULD HAVE HEARD A PIN DROP... As you
can imagine, the preacher was never invited back.

We believe the whole sermon will be a blessing
to many souls. For more info about Paul Washer
go to www.heartcrymissionary.com



This is a sermon that we all need to hear.  He speanks the truth.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #37 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 13:18:12 »

Offline grace

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #38 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 13:32:56 »
http://media04.sa-media.com/sermons019/52906154239.mp3

Sermon Audio has this to say about this sermon:

Quote
This is a Shockingly Powerful & Biblical message
preached to about 5,000 youth in a day when youth
are appealed to through shallow and worldly means.

At one point in this sermon the 5,000 Youth are
clapping and yelling BUT THEN the preacher makes
a comment that CHANGES THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE TO
WHERE YOU COULD HAVE HEARD A PIN DROP... As you
can imagine, the preacher was never invited back.

We believe the whole sermon will be a blessing
to many souls. For more info about Paul Washer
go to www.heartcrymissionary.com


I have never heard of Him, but after I heard this sermon (which was awsome!) I now have him on my itunes...for my ipod! I will listen to more...thanks for the link!

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #38 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 13:32:56 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline JerryW

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #39 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 20:20:05 »
The reason people like the "sinner's prayer" is because that is the way the Evangelical Church has taught salvation for many years. The sinner's prayer is not Bibical, neither has it ever saved a single soul! It only has deceived many into thinking they are saved. Their salvation is built on "man's wisdom" and not in the power of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostle Paul taught salvation with these words, "repent and believe".  Paul also says "faith comes from hearing".

Jerry,

In your view, is the Sinner's prayer NOT Biblical or UNbiblical?

Did you ever hear anyone using the Sinner's prayer say that the prayer itself saves? I have not. As far as I know, the prayer is just a means to an end, NOT the end itself.  The Sinner's prayer points to Jesus and NOT to the prayer itself. It is usually used at the end of a counselling session with someone who believes in the Gospel. Thus, I have no problem using it.

blessings

Apollos
Apollos,  to answer your questions I don"t see any difference between NOT Biblical and UNBiblical. To me they both mean the same thing.  As far as hearing somebody say that the sinners prayer saves, I cannot recall anybody exactly saying that , but it is certainly implied. This is the most common "method" that is used in the evangelical churches to "save" people. There is a altar call, people come forward and say "the prayer" and "accept Jesus in there heart".  Or you might have a unsaved person and you open your Bible and show him some "salvation verses" and you "help" him say "the prayer" and he is on his way heaven(At least he thinks that). and the word "repentance" is never even mentioned or probably even not thought of. The main problem with the"sinner's prayer" is it leaves people with a false sense of salvation. One other thing I might add is a unbeliever has no access to the throne of God, thus the prayer he prays is not even taken into consideration by God. Jesus said the "only way to my Father is thru me". and that would be only thru a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #39 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 20:20:05 »



Offline spurly

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #40 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 20:22:51 »
To me, that sermon wasn't real shocking.  I've heard preaching like that my entire life.


JerryWThere is a big difference between something that may not be mentioned in the Bible and something that is spoken against in the Bible.  That's what Apollos seems to be trying to say by using those two terms. 

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #40 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 20:22:51 »

Offline Apollos

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #41 on: Fri Aug 08, 2008 - 21:43:25 »
To me, that sermon wasn't real shocking.  I've heard preaching like that my entire life.


JerryWThere is a big difference between something that may not be mentioned in the Bible and something that is spoken against in the Bible.  That's what Apollos seems to be trying to say by using those two terms. 

spurly,

Thanks. That is exactly what I was trying to learn from Jerry.

Jerry,

Quote
Apollos,  to answer your questions I don"t see any difference between NOT Biblical and UNBiblical. To me they both mean the same thing.  As far as hearing somebody say that the sinners prayer saves, I cannot recall anybody exactly saying that , but it is certainly implied. This is the most common "method" that is used in the evangelical churches to "save" people. There is a altar call, people come forward and say "the prayer" and "accept Jesus in there heart".  Or you might have a unsaved person and you open your Bible and show him some "salvation verses" and you "help" him say "the prayer" and he is on his way heaven(At least he thinks that). and the word "repentance" is never even mentioned or probably even not thought of. The main problem with the"sinner's prayer" is it leaves people with a false sense of salvation. One other thing I might add is a unbeliever has no access to the throne of God, thus the prayer he prays is not even taken into consideration by God. Jesus said the "only way to my Father is thru me". and that would be only thru a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Certainly implied? Not by a long shot. CoC folks, I believe, would cry 'FOUL' if I call them baptismal regenerationists. The same argument applies. Just because some folks used the method wrongly does not make it bad. We educate them. We do not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Quote
This is the most common "method" that is used in the evangelical churches to "save" people. There is a altar call, people come forward and say "the prayer" and "accept Jesus in there heart".  Or you might have a unsaved person and you open your Bible and show him some "salvation verses" and you "help" him say "the prayer" and he is on his way heaven(At least he thinks that). and the word "repentance" is never even mentioned or probably even not thought of.

I find that offensive. You are saying we treat salvation matters flippantly. I assure you that we don't. We are dead (forgive the pun) serious about what the Bible has to say regarding salvation.

And as I have mentioned, the prayer is used after a period of counselling with the Word of God. That is the context of the Sinner's prayer.

blessings
Apollos

« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 07:07:39 by Apollos »

Offline dmcca

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #42 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 01:15:01 »
What is the "sinners prayer" does anyone have a copy of it, or is a free text kind of thing? Is it the bible verse, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.? I've heard about it. I know it has something to do with Baptists, but that's all I know.

Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #43 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 01:53:29 »
Apollos,  to answer your questions I don"t see any difference between NOT Biblical and UNBiblical.

More to the point, perhaps there's a difference between non-Biblical and anti-Biblical.

"Non-Biblical" is teaching something that isn't taught in the Bible (but not necessarily taught against either).

"Anti-Biblical," on the other hand, would be to teach something that is against or contrary to other Biblical teachings.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #43 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 01:53:29 »

Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #44 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 02:01:29 »
What is the "sinners prayer" does anyone have a copy of it, or is a free text kind of thing? Is it the bible verse, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.? I've heard about it. I know it has something to do with Baptists, but that's all I know.


Googling it turned up this site:  http://www.sinner-prayer.com/

Quote
Sinner's Prayer - Recognizing the Need
The "Sinner's Prayer" is a term that describes the words spoken by a person when he or she has recognized their sin and their need for a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It goes something like this:

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

Offline Apollos

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #45 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 07:16:56 »
Jerry,

We do many things which are not found in the Bible. So, I really do not worry too much about the Sinner's prayer being not Biblical. Here's a little challenge for you. Show me that it is unbiblical and I will repent and cease using the sinner's prayer altogether. Fair enough?

blessings

Apollos

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #46 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 10:35:04 »
How is the Sinner's prayer worded?  Or are there different ones used by different churches?
The only ones I've heard were on TV?  Like John Hagee's program, etc.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #47 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 11:33:39 »
Jerry,

We do many things which are not found in the Bible. So, I really do not worry too much about the Sinner's prayer being not Biblical. Here's a little challenge for you. Show me that it is unbiblical and I will repent and cease using the sinner's prayer altogether. Fair enough?

blessings

Apollos

It might be easier for you to try and show that it is biblical. It's harder to prove a negative. He would have to quote the entire bible to prove it is NOT in there.

Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #48 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 12:44:51 »
By "un-biblical," I think he means what I meant by "anti-biblical."

Not only that it isn't mentioned... but that it actually goes contrary to the Bible.

Offline Apollos

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #49 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 19:24:25 »
Jerry,

We do many things which are not found in the Bible. So, I really do not worry too much about the Sinner's prayer being not Biblical. Here's a little challenge for you. Show me that it is unbiblical and I will repent and cease using the sinner's prayer altogether. Fair enough?

blessings

Apollos

It might be easier for you to try and show that it is biblical. It's harder to prove a negative. He would have to quote the entire bible to prove it is NOT in there.

Jaime,

Jerry claims it is not Biblical and I concede that. But since he thinks that it is also UNbiblical, he shouldn't have too much trouble supporting his view from the Bible.
(Thus, it is not a case of proving a negative)

NOT Biblical = not found in the Bible
UNbiblical = contrary to the Bible.

blessings
Apollos

Offline Jaime

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #50 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 20:06:01 »
My bad

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #51 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 20:55:14 »
No more alter calls. 
nope hold your confession, you cant get saved today, you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

no you cant ask Jesus into your heart and to be the Lord of your life, that isn't biblical. come back next week.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit and give water calls.    ::intherain::

what if you dont go to church... ::eek::

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #52 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 20:58:03 »
No more alter calls. 
nope hold your confession, you cant get saved today, you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

no you cant ask Jesus into your heart and to be the Lord of your life, that isn't biblical. come back next week.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit and give water calls.


None of the above.  We are saved by faith, not by the Sinner's Prayer and not by water.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #53 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 21:12:07 »
No more alter calls. 
nope hold your confession, you cant get saved today, you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

no you cant ask Jesus into your heart and to be the Lord of your life, that isn't biblical. come back next week.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit and give water calls.


None of the above.  We are saved by faith, not by the Sinner's Prayer and not by water.

Exactly.

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"
that is the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation.


"Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  - Rom.10:9-13

Offline charlie

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #54 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 22:10:23 »
This sermon convicted me deeply.

But not deeply enough, I fear. Everything he says about saying the sinner's prayer is true of my own baptism. Many times in my life, I have massaged my conscience by reminding myself that I got baptized way back when and believed at that time that all my sins were forgiven.

But that does not make right the things I do today.

Folks, please don't get distracted by arguments about the sinner's prayer. Even if you are right about the un/non-scripturality of it, you haven't by your doctrinal correctness saved your soul from the wrath of God as described by this preacher.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #55 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 22:37:25 »
The sinner's prayer is nigh-worthless, simply because the people don't understand what they are saying.

The kids ask Jesus to "come into their heart" or "be their Lord."

But they don't understand what the heart is, Biblically.  Nor do they understand how He could come into it.  Or what a lord is, or what such a thing would entail, or how it would endenture them.

Call me old fashioned but I just don't think the gospel is very effective when the people don't understand it.

Jarrod

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #56 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 23:41:38 »

Call me old fashioned but I just don't think the gospel is very effective when the people don't understand it.

Jarrod

Amen.

That has been my personal experience and in observing others around me I would assess the same.

Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #57 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 00:04:25 »
you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

The idea that a church "only does baptisms" on certain days, etc. is foreign to my experience.  If someone desired to be baptized, and if someone was willing to do it, then it could be done at any time... whether it be when the church meets or at other times.  The opportunity was usually extended for baptism at the end of every church service.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit...

Is behind the pulpit okay?  ::lookaround::

Offline JerryW

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #58 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 00:52:35 »
Jerry,

We do many things which are not found in the Bible. So, I really do not worry too much about the Sinner's prayer being not Biblical. Here's a little challenge for you. Show me that it is unbiblical and I will repent and cease using the sinner's prayer altogether. Fair enough?

blessings

Apollos

It might be easier for you to try and show that it is biblical. It's harder to prove a negative. He would have to quote the entire bible to prove it is NOT in there.

Jaime,

Jerry claims it is not Biblical and I concede that. But since he thinks that it is also UNbiblical, he shouldn't have too much trouble supporting his view from the Bible.
(Thus, it is not a case of proving a negative)

NOT Biblical = not found in the Bible
UNbiblical = contrary to the Bible.

blessings
Apollos
Apollos, Let me answer your questions using your terminology.  The sinner's prayer is NOT biblical(not found in the Bible). Since this prayer is of the recent making (starting with the Evangelical Movement) it does not appear as such in the Bible. The sinner's prayer is also UNbiblical.(contrary to the Bible).  Let me further explain that. The sinners prayer in God's eyes is "works"(something a man does, even if in the least bit) Now answer this question.  Can a man be saved by something he does?  Hopefully your answer will be "no". Now can you why it does not save and is very deceiving? Also let me quote Rom 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by WORKS, if it were, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.  You said you would repent and not use it again, but you need only do so if the Holy Spirit is bringing that conviction and not because of what I have said.

Offline Apollos

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #59 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 01:13:33 »
Jerry,

Quote
Apollos, Let me answer your questions using your terminology.  The sinner's prayer is NOT biblical(not found in the Bible). Since this prayer is of the recent making (starting with the Evangelical Movement) it does not appear as such in the Bible. The sinner's prayer is also UNbiblical.(contrary to the Bible).  Let me further explain that. The sinners prayer in God's eyes is "works"(something a man does, even if in the least bit) Now answer this question.  Can a man be saved by something he does?  Hopefully your answer will be "no". Now can you why it does not save and is very deceiving? Also let me quote Rom 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by WORKS, if it were, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.  You said you would repent and not use it again, but you need only do so if the Holy Spirit is bringing that conviction and not because of what I have said.

You would have to explain to me how the sinner's prayer is "works".

blessings

Apollos

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #60 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 04:59:38 »
Jerry,

We do many things which are not found in the Bible. So, I really do not worry too much about the Sinner's prayer being not Biblical. Here's a little challenge for you. Show me that it is unbiblical and I will repent and cease using the sinner's prayer altogether. Fair enough?

blessings

Apollos

It might be easier for you to try and show that it is biblical. It's harder to prove a negative. He would have to quote the entire bible to prove it is NOT in there.

Jaime,

Jerry claims it is not Biblical and I concede that. But since he thinks that it is also UNbiblical, he shouldn't have too much trouble supporting his view from the Bible.
(Thus, it is not a case of proving a negative)

NOT Biblical = not found in the Bible
UNbiblical = contrary to the Bible.

blessings
Apollos
Apollos, Let me answer your questions using your terminology.  The sinner's prayer is NOT biblical(not found in the Bible). Since this prayer is of the recent making (starting with the Evangelical Movement) it does not appear as such in the Bible. The sinner's prayer is also UNbiblical.(contrary to the Bible).  Let me further explain that. The sinners prayer in God's eyes is "works"(something a man does, even if in the least bit) Now answer this question.  Can a man be saved by something he does?  Hopefully your answer will be "no". Now can you why it does not save and is very deceiving? Also let me quote Rom 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by WORKS, if it were, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.  You said you would repent and not use it again, but you need only do so if the Holy Spirit is bringing that conviction and not because of what I have said.

"No one comes to me except my Father which sent me draw him."

They must first hear the Word preached, which sets up a Godly sorrow in their heart.  In other words they become sorrowful for sinning against the Father, and if the Father is urging them (drawing) to repent, they can.
He says he will in no way turn anyone away who comes to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
This is biblical but I can't tell you where to find it all now.  I will have to look it up.

Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #61 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 08:07:18 »
He says he will in no way turn anyone away who comes to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
This is biblical but I can't tell you where to find it all now.  I will have to look it up.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #62 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 08:10:56 »
you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

The idea that a church "only does baptisms" on certain days, etc. is foreign to my experience.  If someone desired to be baptized, and if someone was willing to do it, then it could be done at any time... whether it be when the church meets or at other times.  The opportunity was usually extended for baptism at the end of every church service.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit...

Is behind the pulpit okay?  ::lookaround::

I was kinda being sarcastic.  On a true note though, the last church I was a member of only did water baptism every three months, after the schooling period for new members, then I got water baptized. but it was only a special thing at a certain time set up for the new members, during this time others could come forward and get dunked if they wanted to.
Ive noticed similar programs at other churches here as well, Ive attended many churches in my area. Ive never heard of a sunday water call.


Offline DCR

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #63 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 08:29:31 »
you will have to come back because we only do water baptism on the 1st sunday of the month.

The idea that a church "only does baptisms" on certain days, etc. is foreign to my experience.  If someone desired to be baptized, and if someone was willing to do it, then it could be done at any time... whether it be when the church meets or at other times.  The opportunity was usually extended for baptism at the end of every church service.

churches will have to set up a pool in front of the pulpit...

Is behind the pulpit okay?  ::lookaround::

I was kinda being sarcastic.  On a true note though, the last church I was a member of only did water baptism every three months, after the schooling period for new members, then I got water baptized. but it was only a special thing at a certain time set up for the new members, during this time others could come forward and get dunked if they wanted to.
Ive noticed similar programs at other churches here as well, Ive attended many churches in my area. Ive never heard of a sunday water call.



Baptism's purpose and function in any given church's teachings is obviously going to drive how it is handled, how often it is done, etc.  I've never heard the term "water call" either.  Actually, in my particular church background, what you might refer to as the "altar call," we always referred to as the "invitation."  Functionally, it's pretty much the same thing, I suppose, just different semantics (although, the use of the word "altar" always struck me as a bit odd).

But, since we see baptism as actually the means of conversion/becoming a Christian or a member of Christ's church/body, when someone comes forward and expresses the desire to follow Christ and to become recognized as a Christ-following Christian, the person is taken to be baptized right then and there.  So, immediately upon taking the person's confession of faith, he or she is taken back and prepared for baptism.  We do this because we understand it to be the Biblical way.  In the New Testament, whenever someone believed the Gospel and accepted Jesus, they were baptized immediately.  And, at that point, they begin their Christian lives.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #64 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 10:37:41 »
He says he will in no way turn anyone away who comes to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
This is biblical but I can't tell you where to find it all now.  I will have to look it up.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Psalms 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Amen!

Offline JerryW

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #65 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 14:43:28 »
Jerry,

Quote
Apollos, Let me answer your questions using your terminology.  The sinner's prayer is NOT biblical(not found in the Bible). Since this prayer is of the recent making (starting with the Evangelical Movement) it does not appear as such in the Bible. The sinner's prayer is also UNbiblical.(contrary to the Bible).  Let me further explain that. The sinners prayer in God's eyes is "works"(something a man does, even if in the least bit) Now answer this question.  Can a man be saved by something he does?  Hopefully your answer will be "no". Now can you why it does not save and is very deceiving? Also let me quote Rom 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by WORKS, if it were, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.  You said you would repent and not use it again, but you need only do so if the Holy Spirit is bringing that conviction and not because of what I have said.

You would have to explain to me how the sinner's prayer is "works".

blessings

Apollos
Apollos,  Simply, the word "works" is alluding to "man's work or effort" in doing something(that could be anything) to attain something(whatever that might be). Faith comes from HEARING the word of God.  Just out of curiosity if a person came up to you and asked "what must I do to be saved" what would your reply be?

Offline Apollos

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #66 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 20:15:15 »
Jerry,

Quote
Apollos,  Simply, the word "works" is alluding to "man's work or effort" in doing something(that could be anything) to attain something(whatever that might be). Faith comes from HEARING the word of God.  Just out of curiosity if a person came up to you and asked "what must I do to be saved" what would your reply be?

So, the sinner’s prayer is something a person does to get saved? Salvation is his wages for uttering that prayer? Asking God for help is works? Let me see…

1.   The thief on the cross (Luke 23:42). He cried “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.

Offline JerryW

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #67 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 21:08:43 »
Jerry,

Quote
Apollos,  Simply, the word "works" is alluding to "man's work or effort" in doing something(that could be anything) to attain something(whatever that might be). Faith comes from HEARING the word of God.  Just out of curiosity if a person came up to you and asked "what must I do to be saved" what would your reply be?

So, the sinner’s prayer is something a person does to get saved? Salvation is his wages for uttering that prayer? Asking God for help is works? Let me see…

1.   The thief on the cross (Luke 23:42). He cried “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.

Offline dmcca

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #68 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 22:50:53 »
DCR
--Thanks for the web-site--question answered.

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Shocking Sermon
« Reply #69 on: Sun Aug 10, 2008 - 23:05:26 »
You say "it is only a cry for help" but if you read John 9:31 which says "we know God DOES NOT listen to sinners, He listens to the Godly man who does his will."  So according to that verse God does not hear him.


Jerry, I don't mean to be critical, but this is a form of twisting scripture that you would do well to abandon. You have snatched this verse out of its context and are using it in a way that the author did not intend. This is a quote from a man defending himself and Jesus to the Pharisees, it was not a revelation of God's thoughts to us. If you used verse 24 in the same chapter in the same way you would have the Bible telling us that Jesus is a sinner. “Give glory to God. We know that this man [Jesus] is a sinner.

 

     
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