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Author Topic: Should women cover their head in church?  (Read 7705 times)
Butch5
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« Reply #255 on: October 31, 2009, 01:36:53 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.



I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?


Absolutely!  And that's why I say that Christ is the Head of every believing woman.  She cannot have two heads.  That would be a two-headed monster.  She can only obey One Master.



Paul did not say man was her master, he said man was her head.
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

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« Reply #255 on: October 31, 2009, 01:36:53 PM »
 
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0man
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« Reply #256 on: October 31, 2009, 02:00:28 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.



I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?


Absolutely!  And that's why I say that Christ is the Head of every believing woman.  She cannot have two heads.  That would be a two-headed monster.  She can only obey One Master.


Do you see Jesus or a loving husband as your Master Phoebe?

.
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« Reply #256 on: October 31, 2009, 02:00:28 PM »
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phoebe
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« Reply #257 on: October 31, 2009, 02:26:47 PM »
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 01:35:45 PM
Quote from: Thankfulldad on October 31, 2009, 12:04:40 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.
I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?

One thing for sure...if the husband is waivering at all (not loving his wife as Christ loved the church); a wife will not feel secure.

A wife will see the husband as head; if he serves his wife...with the love of Christ!

On the other hand...if the wife sees her husband as prideful; she will by pass him straight to Christ Himself for comfort.  The husband is of little use spiritually...

So those that pridefully say...I am the head of the wife; more then likely are not secure in the Love that Christ gives.  Love drives out fear...and fear is full of pride.

On the other hand...the husband that love his wife as Christ loved the church; are secure in that love, and have no need to express that they are the head.



I agree, and don't misunderstand me, I am "not" saying a man has any right to claim authority over his wife. The issue is strictly between the woman and Christ. The veil is a symbol of the woman's submission to her role in creation. Christ is the one who has given the command to wear the veil. It is not about the husband and the wife it is about the wife and Christ.


See, that's the rub.  I don't see Creation as having created a role of hierarchy or submission.  Woman was man's 'ezer kenegdo.  His equal, eye-to-eye, capable, appropriate partner.  Not a "helper".

Where did Christ say the woman is to "wear the veil", please?

Man is not my "head" where head is anything other than meaning than woman (Eve) was taken from man (Adam), i.e., man was the source of life, kephale, for woman. 


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I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
phoebe
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« Reply #258 on: October 31, 2009, 02:27:31 PM »
Quote from: 0man on October 31, 2009, 02:00:28 PM
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.



I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?


Absolutely!  And that's why I say that Christ is the Head of every believing woman.  She cannot have two heads.  That would be a two-headed monster.  She can only obey One Master.


Do you see Jesus or a loving husband as your Master Phoebe?

.


Didn't I just answer that? 

 Scratching head....a little confused.
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I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
phoebe
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« Reply #259 on: October 31, 2009, 02:29:04 PM »
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.



I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?


Absolutely!  And that's why I say that Christ is the Head of every believing woman.  She cannot have two heads.  That would be a two-headed monster.  She can only obey One Master.



Paul did not say man was her master, he said man was her head.

He said man (Adam) was woman's (Eve's) kephale, her source of life.  "head" does not mean "head over" or "head of", but "source".
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"IMO"

I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
0man
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« Reply #260 on: October 31, 2009, 02:32:47 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: 0man on October 31, 2009, 02:00:28 PM
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Butch5 on October 31, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: phoebe on October 25, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
No, the head of every believing woman is Christ.



I guess it doesn't matter what Scripture says?


Absolutely!  And that's why I say that Christ is the Head of every believing woman.  She cannot have two heads.  That would be a two-headed monster.  She can only obey One Master.


Do you see Jesus or a loving husband as your Master Phoebe?

.


Didn't I just answer that? 

 Scratching head....a little confused.

When Jesus said this does it sound like a Master or does it sound like someone who cares and provides?

“So do not start worrying: ‘Where will my food come from? or my drink? or my clothes?’ (These are the things the pagans are always concerned about.) Your Father in heaven knows that you need all these things. Instead, be concerned above everything else with the Kingdom of God and with what he requires of you, and he will provide you with all these other things. So do not worry about tomorrow; it will have enough worries of its own. There is no need to add to the troubles each day brings."

 
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« Reply #260 on: October 31, 2009, 02:32:47 PM »
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mjrhealth
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« Reply #261 on: October 31, 2009, 03:55:51 PM »
I have a friend, who one day came into the presence of the Lord. And so she took a tea towel and proceeded to put it on her head, Jesus asked her".what are you doing", she said the bible said, and then He said, " did I tell you to put a covering on your head ??, and she said no. See it is so simple..  The bible is not God, the disciples are not Jesus. As Jesus sid, ",its the words that I speak that are spirit and Life", all this natter is only bringing rules and death>

In His Love
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gotagoodwife
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« Reply #262 on: October 31, 2009, 04:22:03 PM »
Quote from: mjrhealth on October 31, 2009, 03:55:51 PM
I have a friend, who one day came into the presence of the Lord. And so she took a tea towel and proceeded to put it on her head, Jesus asked her".what are you doing", she said the bible said, and then He said, " did I tell you to put a covering on your head ??, and she said no. See it is so simple..  The bible is not God, the disciples are not Jesus. As Jesus sid, ",its the words that I speak that are spirit and Life", all this natter is only bringing rules and death>

In His Love

1Co 14:37  If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
:38  But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

So you are suggesting that we ignore whatever is not written in the gospels? If so, then we can church doctrine buffet and each suit our own tastes...
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Thankfulldad
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« Reply #263 on: October 31, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 02:26:47 PM
See, that's the rub.  I don't see Creation as having created a role of hierarchy or submission.  Woman was man's 'ezer kenegdo.  His equal, eye-to-eye, capable, appropriate partner.  Not a "helper".

Where did Christ say the woman is to "wear the veil", please?

Man is not my "head" where head is anything other than meaning than woman (Eve) was taken from man (Adam), i.e., man was the source of life, kephale, for woman.

Jesus has given us (man and women) His Spirit; so...with Him in us, there is NO need for hierarchy.  With Christ in us...it is a relationship with Him, and all is well.  Love is the goal, and when we find ourself in His Love; there is peace...

Pray for understanding...that it is NOT about us; rather, it is all about Him...then we will find rest...
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« Reply #263 on: October 31, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »
 
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phoebe
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« Reply #264 on: October 31, 2009, 05:02:03 PM »
Back to the original question, "Should women cover their head in church?"

The responses that are affirmative are only about married women, and always about being in submission to her husband.

Are there different "rules" for single women?

The question has not been answered if a woman should wear a headcovering/veil/hat  24/7.  It seems that if she must wear one in church, since she IS church 24/7 then she should wear one 24/7.  Is this not logical?


The question must then be returned as this:

If a woman wearing a headcovering/veil/hat means that she is in subjection to her husband, does it then mean that if she is not wearing a headcovering/veil/hat that she is in rebellion to her husband?

And then, by not wearing one is she violating some law that means she has lost her salvation?


Of course not.  The answer to both is "no". 


I wear no headcovering as a sign of submission.  I wear one when appropriate to protect my head  and shield my eyes from the weather; same with my husband.  My husband and I live a life of mutual submission.  Mutual submission comes as we live more fully a life based on agape.  We lead our family together, as one.  Jesus is our One and Only Head.  We both submit to Him.  We believe this is the biblical relationship of husbands and wives, as it is the relationship of all believers to each other described in Eph. 5.
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I WATCH FOX NEWS.

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« Reply #264 on: October 31, 2009, 05:02:03 PM »
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ConqueredbyLove
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« Reply #265 on: October 31, 2009, 05:06:05 PM »
[quote author=Thankfulldad link=topic=25488.msg709203#msg709203

Jesus has given us (man and women) His Spirit; so...with Him in us, there is NO need for hierarchy.  With Christ in us...it is a relationship with Him, and all is well.  Love is the goal, and when we find ourself in His Love; there is peace...

Pray for understanding...that it is NOT about us; rather, it is all about Him...then we will find rest...
[/quote]

Thank you for this  Group prayer
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Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me

Break my heart for what breaks Yours
Everything I am for Your kingdom's cause
As I walk from earth into eternity

...Brooke Fraser
Volkmar
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« Reply #266 on: October 31, 2009, 05:06:34 PM »
Quote from: 0man on October 31, 2009, 10:58:16 AM
Hi Volkmar, I'm in Sheffield. Well known for it's steel and cutlery but no longer unfortunately.  Smile




Sheffield is well remembered for it's steel.  We have some table knives from Sheffield.

Ancestors on my father's side of the family immigrated from Nottingham in 1781 to Bancroft, Ontario.

Your "handle" isn't very Anglo-Saxon.


V
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"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
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« Reply #267 on: October 31, 2009, 05:52:05 PM »
Quote from: Volkmar on October 31, 2009, 05:06:34 PM
Quote from: 0man on October 31, 2009, 10:58:16 AM
Hi Volkmar, I'm in Sheffield. Well known for it's steel and cutlery but no longer unfortunately.  Smile




Sheffield is well remembered for it's steel.  We have some table knives from Sheffield.

Ancestors on my father's side of the family immigrated from Nottingham in 1781 to Bancroft, Ontario.

Your "handle" isn't very Anglo-Saxon.


V

My mother was a Nottingham lass and my fathers family were from Sheffield, they met when my dad was a trainee pastor at Nottingham.

Oman means influential in Swahili.
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« Reply #267 on: October 31, 2009, 05:52:05 PM »
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0man
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« Reply #268 on: October 31, 2009, 05:57:36 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 31, 2009, 05:02:03 PM
Back to the original question, "Should women cover their head in church?"

The responses that are affirmative are only about married women, and always about being in submission to her husband.

Are there different "rules" for single women?

The question has not been answered if a woman should wear a headcovering/veil/hat  24/7.  It seems that if she must wear one in church, since she IS church 24/7 then she should wear one 24/7.  Is this not logical?


The question must then be returned as this:

If a woman wearing a headcovering/veil/hat means that she is in subjection to her husband, does it then mean that if she is not wearing a headcovering/veil/hat that she is in rebellion to her husband?

And then, by not wearing one is she violating some law that means she has lost her salvation?


Of course not.  The answer to both is "no".  


I wear no headcovering as a sign of submission.  I wear one when appropriate to protect my head  and shield my eyes from the weather; same with my husband.  My husband and I live a life of mutual submission.  Mutual submission comes as we live more fully a life based on agape.  We lead our family together, as one.  Jesus is our One and Only Head.  We both submit to Him.  We believe this is the biblical relationship of husbands and wives, as it is the relationship of all believers to each other described in Eph. 5.




My bold.

That's lovely Phoebe, that is how it should be.

The head covering was more about submitting to local custom and even today it would be appropriate to wear head covering in some countries.


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« Reply #269 on: October 31, 2009, 06:04:04 PM »
Eph  5, all believers submit to each other, is obviously not talking about the same thing as "submit as unto God." Otherwise you wouldn't constantly see separate instructions for husbands and wives.

Yet again, some accuse Paul of disagreeing with himself.

And yes the head coverings were for women and not just wives.
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