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Author Topic: Should women cover their head in church?  (Read 4963 times)
gotagoodwife
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« Reply #315 on: November 02, 2009, 02:24:13 PM »

Thanks for the jeep offer.  That was kind.  I am leaving now to pick up a vehicle.  MO is a bit of a commute to TN.


Mo? Well, yes, at least we can agree on that...
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« Reply #315 on: November 02, 2009, 02:24:13 PM »

 
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Cally
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« Reply #316 on: November 02, 2009, 05:52:48 PM »

For Cally and Butch re. Culture.

Corinth stood in a strategic position on a trade route across the narrow neck of land between the Aegean and Adriatic. It was a thriving centre of commerce and a cosmopolitan city where people of different cultures, Greeks, Latins, Syrians, Asiatics, Egyptians and Jews rubbed shoulders with one another.

Paul needed to build the Christian church from its members who were a cultural mix of various pagan religions plus the Jewish religion. He spent 18 months there which is about the longest he ever spent in one place, along with Apollos and Cephas (Peter) teaching and resolving disputes.

Seeing as we are all one in Christ Paul brought the women out from behind the mechitza which is a partition or screen that divided the men from the women and at the same time the men were to remove their skull cap [kippah or yarmulke] which is a symbol of their awareness of, and submission to, a "higher" entity. There is no authority for the skull cap in the Bible but it had entered their culture. The screen separating the men from the women had gone but for the women the prayer shawl (head covering) remained and I am guessing that something so engrained in their culture was too big a step for them to make after they had gone one step already and come out from behind their screen, so the prayer shawl or the head covering stayed.

There is no scriptural reason for either the skull cap or the prayer shawl but I would imagine Paul needed to consider the peoples own cultural traditions they had grown up with from being babies and such tradition is hard to throw aside, so Paul used as his authority the theme from creation ("For the first man didn’t come from woman, but the first woman came from man" KJV) where Christ came first, then man and then woman and this is where the headship comes in with Christ being head over all and the man being the head of the woman.
(I have difficulty with this myself and Paul did go out of his way to stress our mutuality. I wonder if this is a device he used?)

There is no biblical authority for a head covering and Paul had some difficult cultural issues to deal with. The other cultural issue however was the fact that women of ill-repute went round bare headed while honourable women wore a head covering. This was also part of their culture and the thought crossed my mind that if Christian women wanted to make a statement they could perhaps go back to wearing a hat, which at one time was part of our Christian culture, like the women of Corinth due to the fact it represented purity and therefore was honourable and a glory to God and by association to their husband, but that was purely my own thought.





Here's the deal: it would be one thing for someone to agree with all of Paul's reasoning that he establishes, and then maybe reconsider a different custom (albeit with caution to make sure that the same principles are shown).

But you're basically saying that everything Paul says couldn't possibly be right, because "we are all one in Christ" (and yes this is a true statement). Clearly, you should have been Paul's teacher, because he writes For this cause, and it's nothing like what you put forth. Praying in tongues and Communion are examples of two things (Communion basically replaces the Passover in old Hebrew culture, and we do it anyway) that are not understood in the slightest by the outside world that they did back then.

Furthermore, you have not explained why Paul believed the men should have their heads "uncovered" according to a cultural context.
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« Reply #316 on: November 02, 2009, 05:52:48 PM »

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« Reply #317 on: November 02, 2009, 05:55:50 PM »

Mr. Got-
I have read Grudem's work and am not a follower.  I think he's... well, nevermind.

I find Bilezikian's reasoning to be very logical, and I like that his logic uses Scripture itself to define those words for which their meaning is muddled and uncertain.  It is like they are missing puzzle pieces that we can only find if we look harder.  I hope that you will read and study his piece.

An exegesis is more than a five minute devo.  If I'm going to stamp my name to something, you can be sure that I have studied it extensively and can stand firmly that it is as accurate as I can possibly make it.
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« Reply #318 on: November 02, 2009, 06:05:50 PM »

Mr Got et al,

Following is a bit of a "witness" on me and my journey, just so you know a little more about how I got here:

I studied for 20 years to find truth.  Truth, God's truth, was my only agenda.  This truth I found contradicted everything I had been taught.  It made the solid ground under my feet move.  It wasn't so solid after all.  It scared me, and I cried a lot.  I let my housework go.  My kids played at my feet to be near me.  I was studying more hours than I was sleeping.

I am no feminist.  I have been married three times.  The first was to a chronic philanderer, my second husband died when our home burned to the ground the night our son was born, and I am blessed to be in my final marriage to to a godly man, a fine preacher. I am a small-farm farmer, a homeschooling Mom (my youngest graduates this year), a political conservative.  I am anything but feminist.  I've been churched and in church since I was two weeks old in a mainline Church of Christ.  (Spent a few years with Independent Baptists during my first marriage.)  I was as traditional as they come.  I say all this so you will know that this is not something I went looking for, it came looking for me.

I had begun to question how I was going to answer my two year-old daughter when she asked, "Mommy, why can't I...?", knowing that the answer was because of her gender, and answer that was quite unsatisfactory to both of us.  She has had a unique relationship with God since she could talk.  It did not occur to me that I was going to find a different answer.  I was simply looking for better proof for understanding why she could not.

Then one day some friends of ours brought me a magazine with an ad page opened to gal328.org, and I was overcome with something that could only be described as God working in me.  I began to shake and weep uncontrollably, asking God to send someone else.  I had promised to "be available" to Him.  So here He was asking me to be available.  I knew, before I ever opened that web page, that my life was going to be forever changed.  I had no idea how much, and if I had known, I think I would have thrown it down and run away as fast and as far as I could.  God pried my fingers loose - one at a time - from my heritage, from my church family, from my home, from my beliefs.  And He rebuilt my life, the one He wanted me to live.  He let me breathe His fresh air.  And then, He sent me back to my heritage.  I had work to do for Him, but first needed to know how wonderful His freedom is.

So don't think I have taken this journey lightly, as I fully understand the magnitude.  I don't expect you to agree with me.  I do expect you not to silence me.

I am His willing, obedient servant.

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« Reply #319 on: November 02, 2009, 06:22:18 PM »

Phoebe, something I would be interested in reading would be your full exposition of what Paul meant in 1 cor 11:1-16. I went back through this whole thread and could not find anything like that, just bits and pieces here and there. Do it like you would explain it to someone unfamiliar with the topic, and explain the various verses, so that we can see what Paul meant by them.

What did Paul say, and why did he say it?

Right now things are mostly a lot of going back and forth about comparatively abstract details, so why not lay the big picture out for us, along with such details as would make the whole thing comprehensible to a new believer. Then maybe whatever we discuss from then on would be more worthwhile.

Thanks

Mr. Got - That would be throwing good seed on rock-hard ground, would it not?

In addition, that takes hours of work, hours that I don't have this week.  Are you worthy of my time....?  I am in the middle of trying to replace our vehicle that met it's death when meeting full-on with a young black angus bull (who also met his death) the other night so that my mutually submissive husband and I can leave tomorrow for a brief, but long-planned vacation.  I will be rockin' out with Three Dog Night ( Disco ), a gift from my kids, and enjoying the sunshine (finally!), tranquility, and beauty of the Ozark lakes.  If I feel so inclined, I will take some of my reference materials with me and exegete the passage.  If not, well, I will be quite happy to forget about "headcoverings" for a few days.

ITM, here is a link to an article that provides a good basis for my understanding of kephale:

http://bilezikian.com/gbilezikian/publications/maleheadship.html

I will leave you with this beginning:

11:2 says that "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."  (KJV all right with you?)

First, I notice that the "remember" is of Paul, not Christ.  But a gentle way of beginning a correction.  Very smart of Paul. He will correct that "remember" as he goes.

Second, the word translated in the KJV as 'ordinances' = paradosis, "traditions"

Those "traditions" were Jewish traditions.  Not even necessarily Old Law, as one of the things Saul was known for was being a Jews Jews, well-known for stretching Moses' Law to suit themselves as did the old rabbis.  As Paul lived in his new-found Christian faith, do you think he let go of that all at once, or do you think it was a maturing process where he began to release these old traditions and old laws?  Or are you of the belief that we are to hold fast to the Old Law and its traditions?


"Tradition" is a big hurdle for contemporary mandated headcovering for women to overcome.


Sorry about your vehicle. I have a perfectly functional 95 Jeep Grand Cherokee I will loan you if you want it, I am in E TN.,  let me know.

Hard Ground?  Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black, by your own admission you have spent twenty years consolidating your position, so I don't expect you to change. I have been wrestling with this since 1981, when we moved to this area and started to going to churches where no women cover.
My wife (who has been a Christian a lot longer than me, knows the Scriptures, and covers in church) had to put up with a lot of stupid flack about it and that made me a serious student of the topic.

I am not expecting either one of us to change our positions, I just want to know what you think the passage is saying. That should not take very long, I only asked for something simple. But you are saying it would take hours of work to explain what 1 Cor 11:1-16 means?  Scratching head....a little confused.

Maybe I am not worthy of your time,  We're not worthy!  but there are others besides me who will read this, and it's not like it takes a term paper to explain it. Here is the link to our church web page, it's simple, it's easy to comprehend, and it doesn't require deconstructing what Paul says in order to try and make him say what we want him to say:
http://www.bcchapel.org/questions/HeadCoverings1Cor11.html

I found your link interesting, and it does a good job of setting forth the contemporary egalitarian understanding of kephale. However, I am not persuaded that this recent understanding of the word as primarily meaning "source" is persuasive or accurate, compare it with Grudem's exposition:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/kephale.pdf

And you are still welcome to borrow the Jeep. Seriously. PM me if you want it.



May I borrow the Jeep??  (Just kiddin'.  I do appreciate the kindness of your offer to Phoebe.)

I used to agree with Grudem, and was well versed in the Comp. perspective.  I've come to see that Grudem's argument was flawed because of incomplete manuscript evidence, and, there are some problems in this area with translational bias.

Here's a short post on "kephale" which adds some balance.

http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/2008/06/kephale-in-translation.html


Here is an excerpt from an article by Jon Zens;

Quote
There are cultural matters in the New Testament which we have to face.  In 1 Cor.11:1-16, for example, you have some gospel perspectives brought to bear upon some cultural issues like headcoverings.  Some people conclude that headcoverings are still binding; others see them as a cultural item that we are not required to emulate in our day.  1 Tim.2:8 mentions men praying with uplifted hands.  Do we teach that male prayer is invalid unless the hands are lifted up?  Would 1 Tim.2:9 lead us to confront a sister who donned some jewelry that contained some pearls or gold?  Based on 1 Tim.5:9, would we tell a 57-year old widow in need that we couldn’t help her for three years until her 60th birthday?  Why don’t we “greet one another with a holy kiss” (1 Thess.5:26)?
 
The New Testament was written in the first century and many culturally-rooted issues appear on its pages.  Because of this are we to conclude that it is all “cultural” and contains no relevant “truth” for us today?  No, rather we affirm that the gospel is brought to bear on many Jewish and Gentile cultural matters that impacted the early Christian assemblies.
 
As we, being New Covenant believers, approach any topic or concern, the key perspective for us must be, “you have heard him and have been taught in him, just as truth is in Jesus” (Eph.4:21). 



V
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gotagoodwife
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« Reply #320 on: November 02, 2009, 10:52:29 PM »

Mr Got et al,

Following is a bit of a "witness" on me and my journey, just so you know a little more about how I got here:

I studied for 20 years to find truth.  Truth, God's truth, was my only agenda.  This truth I found contradicted everything I had been taught.  It made the solid ground under my feet move.  It wasn't so solid after all.  It scared me, and I cried a lot.  I let my housework go.  My kids played at my feet to be near me.  I was studying more hours than I was sleeping.

I am no feminist.  I have been married three times.  The first was to a chronic philanderer, my second husband died when our home burned to the ground the night our son was born, and I am blessed to be in my final marriage to to a godly man, a fine preacher. I am a small-farm farmer, a homeschooling Mom (my youngest graduates this year), a political conservative.  I am anything but feminist.  I've been churched and in church since I was two weeks old in a mainline Church of Christ.  (Spent a few years with Independent Baptists during my first marriage.)  I was as traditional as they come.  I say all this so you will know that this is not something I went looking for, it came looking for me.

I had begun to question how I was going to answer my two year-old daughter when she asked, "Mommy, why can't I...?", knowing that the answer was because of her gender, and answer that was quite unsatisfactory to both of us.  She has had a unique relationship with God since she could talk.  It did not occur to me that I was going to find a different answer.  I was simply looking for better proof for understanding why she could not.

Then one day some friends of ours brought me a magazine with an ad page opened to gal328.org, and I was overcome with something that could only be described as God working in me.  I began to shake and weep uncontrollably, asking God to send someone else.  I had promised to "be available" to Him.  So here He was asking me to be available.  I knew, before I ever opened that web page, that my life was going to be forever changed.  I had no idea how much, and if I had known, I think I would have thrown it down and run away as fast and as far as I could.  God pried my fingers loose - one at a time - from my heritage, from my church family, from my home, from my beliefs.  And He rebuilt my life, the one He wanted me to live.  He let me breathe His fresh air.  And then, He sent me back to my heritage.  I had work to do for Him, but first needed to know how wonderful His freedom is.

So don't think I have taken this journey lightly, as I fully understand the magnitude.  I don't expect you to agree with me.  I do expect you not to silence me.

I am His willing, obedient servant.



Thank you for sharing, that was very insightful for me and probably for others. I hope that no believer would seek to silence you, that would just be wrong. However, I firmly believe that iron sharpens iron, and since you seem to be pretty good with the sword, sparring is certainly in order...

I have no experience with the Church of Christ, but reading between the lines, I think maybe I can comprehend why you would be frustrated. I have read about half the articles on the gal328.org web site and find that with a few minor exceptions here and there, what they propose is very close to how our assembly functions. I think that we might be coming at things a little differently than they propose, but since we are not Church of Christ, that is no surprise.

(It suddenly occurs to me to ask what might be a really dumb question: is Grace Centered Christian Forums primarily a Church of Christ specific forum for people within the Church of Christ? Because if it is, maybe I better leave...)

An old friend who is an elder in my first church after I got saved gave me some good counsel recently, we were discussing some issues our congregation was wrestling with, and he offered the opinion that God does not make everything black and white, although He could if He chose. Perhaps the reason He does it that way is because it pleases Him when we take His Word seriously enough to wrestle with it for a really long time, because we want to please Him by getting it right.

Obviously you have done that. I know I have. I accept that you are His servant. I hope to be counted as one.

So enjoy your vacation, relax, have a good time.... leave your sword in the sheath... for now...  Sword fight
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« Reply #320 on: November 02, 2009, 10:52:29 PM »

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0man
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« Reply #321 on: November 03, 2009, 10:42:57 AM »



Here's the deal: it would be one thing for someone to agree with all of Paul's reasoning that he establishes, and then maybe reconsider a different custom (albeit with caution to make sure that the same principles are shown).

But you're basically saying that everything Paul says couldn't possibly be right, because "we are all one in Christ" (and yes this is a true statement). Clearly, you should have been Paul's teacher, because he writes For this cause, and it's nothing like what you put forth. Praying in tongues and Communion are examples of two things (Communion basically replaces the Passover in old Hebrew culture, and we do it anyway) that are not understood in the slightest by the outside world that they did back then.

Furthermore, you have not explained why Paul believed the men should have their heads "uncovered" according to a cultural context.

The custom of wearing a skull cap that has entered Jewish culture is not in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

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« Reply #322 on: November 03, 2009, 10:50:08 AM »

Mr Got et al,

Following is a bit of a "witness" on me and my journey, just so you know a little more about how I got here:

I studied for 20 years to find truth.  Truth, God's truth, was my only agenda.  This truth I found contradicted everything I had been taught.  It made the solid ground under my feet move.  It wasn't so solid after all.  It scared me, and I cried a lot.  I let my housework go.  My kids played at my feet to be near me.  I was studying more hours than I was sleeping.

I am no feminist.  I have been married three times.  The first was to a chronic philanderer, my second husband died when our home burned to the ground the night our son was born, and I am blessed to be in my final marriage to to a godly man, a fine preacher. I am a small-farm farmer, a homeschooling Mom (my youngest graduates this year), a political conservative.  I am anything but feminist.  I've been churched and in church since I was two weeks old in a mainline Church of Christ.  (Spent a few years with Independent Baptists during my first marriage.)  I was as traditional as they come.  I say all this so you will know that this is not something I went looking for, it came looking for me.

I had begun to question how I was going to answer my two year-old daughter when she asked, "Mommy, why can't I...?", knowing that the answer was because of her gender, and answer that was quite unsatisfactory to both of us.  She has had a unique relationship with God since she could talk.  It did not occur to me that I was going to find a different answer.  I was simply looking for better proof for understanding why she could not.

Then one day some friends of ours brought me a magazine with an ad page opened to gal328.org, and I was overcome with something that could only be described as God working in me.  I began to shake and weep uncontrollably, asking God to send someone else.  I had promised to "be available" to Him.  So here He was asking me to be available.  I knew, before I ever opened that web page, that my life was going to be forever changed.  I had no idea how much, and if I had known, I think I would have thrown it down and run away as fast and as far as I could.  God pried my fingers loose - one at a time - from my heritage, from my church family, from my home, from my beliefs.  And He rebuilt my life, the one He wanted me to live.  He let me breathe His fresh air.  And then, He sent me back to my heritage.  I had work to do for Him, but first needed to know how wonderful His freedom is.

So don't think I have taken this journey lightly, as I fully understand the magnitude.  I don't expect you to agree with me.  I do expect you not to silence me.

I am His willing, obedient servant.



Thank you for sharing, that was very insightful for me and probably for others. I hope that no believer would seek to silence you, that would just be wrong. However, I firmly believe that iron sharpens iron, and since you seem to be pretty good with the sword, sparring is certainly in order...

I have no experience with the Church of Christ, but reading between the lines, I think maybe I can comprehend why you would be frustrated. I have read about half the articles on the gal328.org web site and find that with a few minor exceptions here and there, what they propose is very close to how our assembly functions. I think that we might be coming at things a little differently than they propose, but since we are not Church of Christ, that is no surprise.

(It suddenly occurs to me to ask what might be a really dumb question: is Grace Centered Christian Forums primarily a Church of Christ specific forum for people within the Church of Christ? Because if it is, maybe I better leave...)

An old friend who is an elder in my first church after I got saved gave me some good counsel recently, we were discussing some issues our congregation was wrestling with, and he offered the opinion that God does not make everything black and white, although He could if He chose. Perhaps the reason He does it that way is because it pleases Him when we take His Word seriously enough to wrestle with it for a really long time, because we want to please Him by getting it right.

Obviously you have done that. I know I have. I accept that you are His servant. I hope to be counted as one.

So enjoy your vacation, relax, have a good time.... leave your sword in the sheath... for now...  Sword fight

To answer your question, no, it is not.  I was started with a Restoration Movement emphasis, and in some of the earlier days, "Church of Christ" dominated.  The board has grown since then, and now there are weird issues from many different churches that get talked about here.
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« Reply #323 on: November 03, 2009, 09:39:48 PM »



Here's the deal: it would be one thing for someone to agree with all of Paul's reasoning that he establishes, and then maybe reconsider a different custom (albeit with caution to make sure that the same principles are shown).

But you're basically saying that everything Paul says couldn't possibly be right, because "we are all one in Christ" (and yes this is a true statement). Clearly, you should have been Paul's teacher, because he writes For this cause, and it's nothing like what you put forth. Praying in tongues and Communion are examples of two things (Communion basically replaces the Passover in old Hebrew culture, and we do it anyway) that are not understood in the slightest by the outside world that they did back then.

Furthermore, you have not explained why Paul believed the men should have their heads "uncovered" according to a cultural context.

The custom of wearing a skull cap that has entered Jewish culture is not in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).



Which doesn't explain why Paul says "a man ought to have his head uncovered, for he is the image of God." That is, he is insistent on it more than "you guys don't have to if you don't want to." (because there's no culture issue)

Also, V, I considered yet another thing out of interpretation of "trinity" and wondered how you would reply (perhaps out of my misunderstanding of your position). How do you explain God's statement that "no one has seen my face and lived," and yet Jesus says "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father as well"?

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.
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« Reply #323 on: November 03, 2009, 09:39:48 PM »

 
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« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2009, 07:57:15 AM »



Here's the deal: it would be one thing for someone to agree with all of Paul's reasoning that he establishes, and then maybe reconsider a different custom (albeit with caution to make sure that the same principles are shown).

But you're basically saying that everything Paul says couldn't possibly be right, because "we are all one in Christ" (and yes this is a true statement). Clearly, you should have been Paul's teacher, because he writes For this cause, and it's nothing like what you put forth. Praying in tongues and Communion are examples of two things (Communion basically replaces the Passover in old Hebrew culture, and we do it anyway) that are not understood in the slightest by the outside world that they did back then.

Furthermore, you have not explained why Paul believed the men should have their heads "uncovered" according to a cultural context.

The custom of wearing a skull cap that has entered Jewish culture is not in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).



Which doesn't explain why Paul says "a man ought to have his head uncovered, for he is the image of God." That is, he is insistent on it more than "you guys don't have to if you don't want to." (because there's no culture issue)

Also, V, I considered yet another thing out of interpretation of "trinity" and wondered how you would reply (perhaps out of my misunderstanding of your position). How do you explain God's statement that "no one has seen my face and lived," and yet Jesus says "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father as well"?

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.

I have never known another forum so argumentative. You remind me of the Corinthian Church. I'm outta here. Bye everyone.


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« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2009, 07:57:15 AM »

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« Reply #325 on: November 04, 2009, 01:10:16 PM »

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.

Would you want to rethink and rephrase that last sentence?
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« Reply #326 on: November 04, 2009, 06:05:41 PM »

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.

Would you want to rethink and rephrase that last sentence?

Dunno. What's wrong with it?  Confused
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« Reply #327 on: November 04, 2009, 07:04:32 PM »

The question before me is "Should women cover their head in church?"

My answer would be if they want I do not see anything wrong with it so more power to them.
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« Reply #327 on: November 04, 2009, 07:04:32 PM »

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« Reply #328 on: November 04, 2009, 07:29:04 PM »

If they wish to follow Jewish tradition, then yes, if they want to do what Jesus wishes them to do, then No, Jesus never asked anyone to be subservient to Him, never asked anyone to plead with Him before He healed them, never asked anyone to bow to Him before He spoke to them, never asked anyone to take a bath before He supped with them, and He would never ask you to wear a veil just to come into His presence.

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« Reply #329 on: November 04, 2009, 07:33:08 PM »



Here's the deal: it would be one thing for someone to agree with all of Paul's reasoning that he establishes, and then maybe reconsider a different custom (albeit with caution to make sure that the same principles are shown).

But you're basically saying that everything Paul says couldn't possibly be right, because "we are all one in Christ" (and yes this is a true statement). Clearly, you should have been Paul's teacher, because he writes For this cause, and it's nothing like what you put forth. Praying in tongues and Communion are examples of two things (Communion basically replaces the Passover in old Hebrew culture, and we do it anyway) that are not understood in the slightest by the outside world that they did back then.

Furthermore, you have not explained why Paul believed the men should have their heads "uncovered" according to a cultural context.

The custom of wearing a skull cap that has entered Jewish culture is not in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).



Which doesn't explain why Paul says "a man ought to have his head uncovered, for he is the image of God." That is, he is insistent on it more than "you guys don't have to if you don't want to." (because there's no culture issue)

Also, V, I considered yet another thing out of interpretation of "trinity" and wondered how you would reply (perhaps out of my misunderstanding of your position). How do you explain God's statement that "no one has seen my face and lived," and yet Jesus says "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father as well"?

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.



Cally,

Don't have any opinion to offer relative to your last paragraph.  Kaint make hide nor 'air of it. ;o)


How do you explain God's statement that "no one has seen my face and lived," and yet Jesus says "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father as well"?


I understand from Exodus that God said that to Moses.

I understand from the Gospel account of John that Jesus said that to the disciples.

Interesting quote from Hebrews chapter 1;
Quote
God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,

 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(1901 ASV)


In these last days God revealed Himself to us in His Son, who is "the effulgence of his glory, and the VERY image of his substance."  Numerous people have looked on the Face of God and yet lived.  Not only that, but those of us who belong to and are in Christ also have the Holy Spirit of God living within us (unheard of in the OT experience).  And, we like Jesus, call upon God as "abba"...also unheard of in the OT experience).

Also interesting to note from the Hebrews passage is that the Son "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."  "Very God" is sitting next to "Very God".  Is that image not a metaphor to assist us in understanding something of the relationship between Father and Son?


V


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