Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2009, 06:01:21 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Theology Forum
| | |-+  Should women cover their head in church?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 ... 30 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Should women cover their head in church?  (Read 4965 times)
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #330 on: November 04, 2009, 08:52:09 PM »

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.

Would you want to rethink and rephrase that last sentence?

Dunno. What's wrong with it?  Confused

Well, it implies that the 2nd person of the Godhead either came into existence at some point prior to the incarnation, or that the first two Persons of the Godhead altered themselves at some point prior to the incarnation. Which would mean that the perfect and complete God had to alter and change something and become something different, yet still be perfect and complete, and that doesn't work, not only is it a contradiction in itself, the Bible tells us that God does not change. The persons, relationship and state of the three persons of the Trinity has always been what it is now, with the exception that the incarnation of Christ added a new dimension within space and time.
And prior to the creation, neither time nor space existed. (Which would add some virtually impossible mental gymnastics to trying to conceptualize how Christ could have "come out of the Father" to use your words. In the absence of time, how do you have an "event?"

(You might enjoy this article:  http://www.custance.org/old/time/    )

Meanwhile,  this is getting really off track relative to this thread...
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #330 on: November 04, 2009, 08:52:09 PM »

 
 Logged
Cally
Senior Member
****

Manna: 46
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1107


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #331 on: November 04, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »

^I'm really, really shocked to hear you say this.

Apart from the various scriptures I cited, about Jesus going up to where he was before, or "before Abraham was, I am." And everywhere in scripture it says that God "SENT" his Son. Parables are also similar in portrayal: the Son was sent. How could God have "sent his Son" if he didn't exist before he was sent to the world? There was a point at which the Son took corporeal form.

Now Jesus has another title: the Son of Man. THAT was referring to the physical incarnation which was promised in Genesis, sent to Earth to crush the devil's work. The "Son of Man" as the agent of the promise did begin at that point, while Jesus existed before that as the "Son of God".

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." And 1 John says that Satan was sinning from the beginning.

If what we call the "present" is a pen, drawing out linear time, then God views the finished portrait, seeing all events construct history that he had planned and orchestrated from the beginning. Telling is the fact that Christ does not know the date of the end times, but only the Father knows the date (and again, this also suggests that the angels didn't either). What I can see is that the Son experiences sequence, where the Father's perspective is higher.

People confused about the nature of sequence also have a hard time grasping the beginning. That's why atheists foolishly ask "who created God?" God, purely, is existence: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," and of course to Moses: "I Am."

As we can see, then, God encircles all sequence. He began it and will finish it. Nothing within, therefore of course, takes Him by surprise. The Hebrew name for God or Yahweh is similar. Since he encircles sequence, and IS the Beginning and the End,

I am confident portraying the Son as this: the linear time iteration/expression of God. Beneath and within the Father, and began as time began. The "Son" only had one parent, so to speak, and that Son is therefore a perfect image of his Father (like if somehow a child could be born of one parent).

(I do not consider extrabiblical terms like "Godhead" and "trinity")

Jesus was the Son of MAN when he was born and became fleshly, to crush the serpent's plans according to the prophecy in Genesis (notice also that somehow, Joseph's genealogy is given as well as Mary's). He was the Son of GOD since the very, very beginning.

At any rate, the head of Christ is God. Paul organized this introduction to fit perfectly the way he would organize the following writing, which describes how a man's head connects to Christ, but the woman's head connects to man (via sign of authority, which her head is "beneath"). And lastly, he says clearly and obviously, "but everything comes from God" (the head of Christ is God). In between he deals with all of what that entails, "for he is the image of God, but woman is the glory of man. Man was not created for woman, but woman for man." But everyone was created for God (this is my statement, of course, and it's an inversion of the others to show that that layer is topmost).

(To suggest that this reference was in any way "chronological" blows an enormous, extremely consequential hole through the Word)

When you consider the real meaning of Paul's instructions for why a man's head should be uncovered (and most people are complaining about the latter half for offending women's lib more than anything else, not paying attention to the former half of the practice because it doesn't offend other mainstream customs) and women's heads covered, the meaning that is very "New Testament," the thought is quite compelling.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:08:44 PM by Cally » Logged

I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.
Christian Forums
« Reply #331 on: November 04, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »

 Logged
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #332 on: November 04, 2009, 10:06:05 PM »

You said:  "I am confident portraying the Son as this: the linear time iteration/expression of God. Beneath and within the Father, and began as time began."

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

How can the Son begin as time begins and still be the one Who creates time as He creates all things?

Logged
Cally
Senior Member
****

Manna: 46
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1107


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #333 on: November 04, 2009, 10:13:11 PM »

You said:  "I am confident portraying the Son as this: the linear time iteration/expression of God. Beneath and within the Father, and began as time began."

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

How can the Son begin as time begins and still be the one Who creates time as He creates all things?



The phrase "creates time" is misleading: remember God's name! He IS the full encirclement of time! Christ begins with it.

I'm sure you'd agree that God didn't create Himself. However, the Son was made along with "THE BEGINNING" (The father who is the beginning and the end knows not sequence and "beginning"). John 1:2 doesn't say he "created" the beginning, so you can see he could not have "created time," while the Father literally WAS the beginning, and the End, Himself; it says Jesus "was in the beginning." That statement is well-worth putting into its own verse (John 1:2).

Again we see, the Son is subject to sequence. But the Father is not.

Hence we see again how the Son is subject to the Father (The Beginning and the End).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:32:55 PM by Cally » Logged

I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 149
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 2840


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #334 on: November 04, 2009, 10:13:49 PM »

Yes, women should cover their head in church. That way we will know that they are in subjection to the men while they're preaching.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #335 on: November 04, 2009, 10:43:41 PM »

You said:  "I am confident portraying the Son as this: the linear time iteration/expression of God. Beneath and within the Father, and began as time began."

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

How can the Son begin as time begins and still be the one Who creates time as He creates all things?





The phrase "creates time" is misleading: remember God's name! He IS the full encirclement of time! Christ begins with it.

I'm sure you'd agree that God didn't create Himself. However, the Son was made along with "THE BEGINNING" (The father who is the beginning and the end knows not sequence and "beginning"). John 1:2 doesn't say he "created" the beginning, so you can see he could not have "created time," while the Father literally WAS the beginning, and the End, Himself; it says Jesus "was in the beginning." That statement is well-worth putting into its own verse (John 1:2).

Again we see, the Son is subject to sequence. But the Father is not.

Hence we see again how the Son is subject to the Father (The Beginning and the End).

I disagree. I think you are chasing the wind.
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #335 on: November 04, 2009, 10:43:41 PM »

 Logged
chosenone
Hero
*****

Manna: 89
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 4393


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #336 on: November 04, 2009, 10:47:15 PM »

Wow 334 posts on something that REALLY isnt important in the grand scheme of things. I do think we should be concerned wiht things that actually make a difference.
If anyone wants to cover their head then do so, and go somewhere where they do this(Not sure there is a single church in the uK that does though)and if you dont think it is important and know that God blesses you anyway then dont.
Logged

In Him I live and move and have my being.
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #337 on: November 04, 2009, 10:50:18 PM »

Yes, women should cover their head in church. That way we will know that they are in subjection to the men while they're preaching.

I agree that women should cover in church, but not for the reason you propose. Your reason fails to rise to the high level of honoring the Headship of Christ and debasing the glory of man that 1 Cor 11:1-16 actually sets forth, and substitutes a secondary (and much less God-honoring) reason in it's place.
Logged
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #338 on: November 04, 2009, 11:12:24 PM »

Wow 334 posts on something that REALLY isnt important in the grand scheme of things. I do think we should be concerned wiht things that actually make a difference.
If anyone wants to cover their head then do so, and go somewhere where they do this(Not sure there is a single church in the uK that does though)and if you dont think it is important and know that God blesses you anyway then dont.

There are 1706 Assemblies in Great Britain, Ireland and Northern Ireland where the women cover, best as I can tell.

Perhaps you don't think some things contained within God's Word are important, but that seems like excessive hubris to me...

One of the young men in our church said it well -  "When I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, perhaps God will say to me, "Wow...You mean you actually took My Word literally? Well, that wasn't how I meant it, but you had a good attitude, I appreciate that."

"On the other hand, if I assume that God's Word is figurative and I don't need to take it literally, then when I stand before Him, He might look at me and say something like "I told you exactly what I meant to say, exactly what I wanted you to do. What was your problem?"

"I'm not sure I'm up for that. I think I'll just take God's Word at face value and do what it says."

Which goes along with what Paul had to tell the believers at Corinth...  1Co 14:37  If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. :38  But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Are keeping the comparatively minor things of the faith as important as going into all the world and preaching the gospel? Obviously not.  But since they are the commandments of the Lord, I think I'll do them anyway...
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #338 on: November 04, 2009, 11:12:24 PM »

 
 Logged
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 149
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 2840


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #339 on: November 04, 2009, 11:15:39 PM »

 Whistling
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Christian Forums
« Reply #339 on: November 04, 2009, 11:15:39 PM »

 Logged
Cally
Senior Member
****

Manna: 46
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1107


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #340 on: November 04, 2009, 11:20:42 PM »

Wow 334 posts on something that REALLY isnt important in the grand scheme of things. I do think we should be concerned wiht things that actually make a difference.
If anyone wants to cover their head then do so, and go somewhere where they do this(Not sure there is a single church in the uK that does though)and if you dont think it is important and know that God blesses you anyway then dont.

In step with everything scriptural, clearly, the spirit of the command is greater than the practice itself.

However, the Pharisees came up with customs that effectively NULLIFIED Mosaic (as Jesus' example with the issue of parents). What I'm saying is that new customs form regardless, and some of those customs become ironclad in their place. I'm used to churches where the congregation is on one side of the pulpit--usually higher so the "congregation" (even though the "pastor" or elder is part of the congregation) can see him, and a worship service does song and dance and then sits and listens. If anything, that's limiting the diversity of the Body.

And so, now we simply have a new tradition that is HARD to circumvent. What I'm saying is that if people NEED to have some kind of organizational practice, why not stick with the ones in the Word established by principle? You know, just to see what happens. We might learn something.

What's more important is definitely those disputing the very reasoning Paul puts forth for head coverings.
Logged

I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.
chosenone
Hero
*****

Manna: 89
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 4393


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #341 on: November 05, 2009, 06:02:28 AM »

Wow 334 posts on something that REALLY isnt important in the grand scheme of things. I do think we should be concerned wiht things that actually make a difference.
If anyone wants to cover their head then do so, and go somewhere where they do this(Not sure there is a single church in the uK that does though)and if you dont think it is important and know that God blesses you anyway then dont.

There are 1706 Assemblies in Great Britain, Ireland and Northern Ireland where the women cover, best as I can tell.

Perhaps you don't think some things contained within God's Word are important, but that seems like excessive hubris to me...

One of the young men in our church said it well -  "When I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, perhaps God will say to me, "Wow...You mean you actually took My Word literally? Well, that wasn't how I meant it, but you had a good attitude, I appreciate that."

"On the other hand, if I assume that God's Word is figurative and I don't need to take it literally, then when I stand before Him, He might look at me and say something like "I told you exactly what I meant to say, exactly what I wanted you to do. What was your problem?"

"I'm not sure I'm up for that. I think I'll just take God's Word at face value and do what it says."

Which goes along with what Paul had to tell the believers at Corinth...  1Co 14:37  If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. :38  But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Are keeping the comparatively minor things of the faith as important as going into all the world and preaching the gospel? Obviously not.  But since they are the commandments of the Lord, I think I'll do them anyway...


 Well I have been a Christian for 37 years, I have met many many many Christians in many diifferent places, denominations  and churches, ministries and church organisations and have never known anyone, either man or women who thinks that women have to cover their heads.
Logged

In Him I live and move and have my being.
JohnDB
Senior Member
****

Manna: 47
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1053


scarey isn't it?

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #342 on: November 05, 2009, 06:12:00 AM »

This is why most women have long hair...it is their hair that covers their head as it is their husbands who spiritually give them covering.

This was the thought many many years ago when women were not equal with men.

Today a woman needs a hat only if she is bald. And that hat can be a wig or whatever...

People have kinda got the clue on this a long time ago as to intent....but now...who knows who will do what.
Logged

I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in my sleep; not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.
Christian Forums
« Reply #342 on: November 05, 2009, 06:12:00 AM »

 Logged
gotagoodwife
Member
***

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #343 on: November 05, 2009, 08:00:44 AM »

This is why most women have long hair...it is their hair that covers their head as it is their husbands who spiritually give them covering.

This was the thought many many years ago when women were not equal with men.

Today a woman needs a hat only if she is bald. And that hat can be a wig or whatever...

People have kinda got the clue on this a long time ago as to intent....but now...who knows who will do what.

"Their husbands spiritually give them covering?"  What doctrine is this? And on what Scripture is it based?
Logged
Volkmar
Senior Member
****

Manna: 116
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1998


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #344 on: November 05, 2009, 08:06:33 AM »

Because my answer, of course, was that Jesus was the expression of God that knows sequence rather than being as far outside of time so as to know the date of the end times, like the Father alone does. (Therefore, the Father is "above" the Son.) And of course, when he was actually sent to Earth after being up in heaven all along, in corporeal form. Of course, the Son came out of the Father long, long before he was sent to Earth.

Would you want to rethink and rephrase that last sentence?

Dunno. What's wrong with it?  Confused

Well, it implies that the 2nd person of the Godhead either came into existence at some point prior to the incarnation, or that the first two Persons of the Godhead altered themselves at some point prior to the incarnation. Which would mean that the perfect and complete God had to alter and change something and become something different, yet still be perfect and complete, and that doesn't work, not only is it a contradiction in itself, the Bible tells us that God does not change. The persons, relationship and state of the three persons of the Trinity has always been what it is now, with the exception that the incarnation of Christ added a new dimension within space and time.
And prior to the creation, neither time nor space existed. (Which would add some virtually impossible mental gymnastics to trying to conceptualize how Christ could have "come out of the Father" to use your words. In the absence of time, how do you have an "event?"

(You might enjoy this article:  http://www.custance.org/old/time/    )

Meanwhile,  this is getting really off track relative to this thread...


Good.

V
Logged

"Nothing is more repugnant to reasonable people than Grace." ---Charles Wesley

"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
Christian Forums
   

 Logged
Should women cover their head in church? - Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 ... 30 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC