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Author Topic: Should women cover their head in church?  (Read 7670 times)
gotagoodwife
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« Reply #360 on: November 07, 2009, 09:56:57 PM »

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nd if they are unbelievers, we advise them that it is a service for believers only. However they are welcome to stay and watch)
Isnt it funny how the whole purpose of being a christian is to save the lost, but when the ywalk into mans church, they are not allowed to participate, division, the devil loves it. Jesus never thought himself to be above anyone, He washed the smelly feet of His disciples, yet we wont even let not so nicely dressed people in the church. When will we stop making laws like the pharrisees and start just loving everyone, no matter who they are, Just like Jesus.

In His Love

Perhaps you do not understand the situation. No, assuredly you do not understand the situation. The Lord's Supper is for those who know Him as Savior - "Do this in remembrance of Me." How can you remember someone you do not know? Or know only in theory?

Perhaps it would help to add that we do this as a separate service prior to the regular 11 AM worship service. During our worship and remembrance time at the Lord's Supper, we don't do it like most churches, with a presiding clergyman doing everything. It is a time for the believers present, both men and women to offer up such meditations, or songs, or praises as the Holy Spirit brings to mind. Everybody worships the Lord on the same basis, God leads, we respond.

Perhaps that might make you think of us as a "charismatic" church. Well, I hope that all of God's people might be charismatic in the sense that the Holy Spirit initiates and leads in what ever they do, but we are a pretty tame, orderly bunch, the "normal" charismatic or pentecostal churches would say that we weren't charismatic at all, because you wouldn't notice the usual "charismatic" behaviors. Not putting them down, we just don't.

So picture yourself in a service where the believers are verbalizing their thoughts of worship towards the Lord, and an unbeliever comes in, listens for a bit, and decides to say something...  Like talk about Edgar Cayce... Or the Mayan calendar... Or that Jesus was the first hippie... wow... Talk about offering strange fire before the Lord... gag

It is a time for God's people to remember their Savior and His death on the cross, not for unbelievers to defile with profane babbling.

As far as excluding those whom He has called to His table - Jesus does not call everybody to take communion, Jesus calls all men to repent and be converted, and then every one who does is welcome at His table, and such would be more than welcome to participate at the Lord's Supper at our assembly.

We do not examine a person's walk or behavior, that is none of our business. God calls on people to examine themselves, confess that they have no works to boast of, that they are saved by grace, and thankfully remember that Jesus did it all. And hopefully - if they are practicing some habitual sin - repent of it and ask God to strengthen them to not repeat it any more. And then participate in worship and thankfulness of the Lord's Supper, instead of in a flippant or indifferent manner - which was apparently what was referred to in 1 Cor 11:29.

Maybe I am missing something - I do that - but I think that is both mainstream Christianity and Scriptural.
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« Reply #360 on: November 07, 2009, 09:56:57 PM »

 
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Volkmar
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« Reply #361 on: November 07, 2009, 10:39:43 PM »

Relating to what Mr. Got said...

We've seen that when someone comes to our assembling who is not a Believer and we are remembering Jesus and lauding Him (every Sunday, at least) it makes that person very uncomfortable.  The few times it has happened they don't come back.  We're not goofy ... they just don't get it.


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« Reply #361 on: November 07, 2009, 10:39:43 PM »

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Cally
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« Reply #362 on: November 07, 2009, 11:23:30 PM »

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nd if they are unbelievers, we advise them that it is a service for believers only. However they are welcome to stay and watch)
Isnt it funny how the whole purpose of being a christian is to save the lost, but when the ywalk into mans church, they are not allowed to participate, division, the devil loves it. Jesus never thought himself to be above anyone, He washed the smelly feet of His disciples, yet we wont even let not so nicely dressed people in the church. When will we stop making laws like the pharrisees and start just loving everyone, no matter who they are, Just like Jesus.

In His Love

You think an unbeliever should take communion with the believers?

Wrong question.

I don't think anyone would bother gathering with believers if they didn't have some belief.   So, in that context, there would not be any unbelievers at His Table.

Do you think Jesus would want us to be the judge and exclude those whom He has called to His Table?   Scratching head....a little confused.


Gotagoodwife said that he does not allow unbelievers to take communion. I assume that means they admit to not believing.

Are you saying you think somebody who actually says they are not believers would/should take communion?

What are we arguing about here, exactly?
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« Reply #363 on: November 08, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »

Strange that Jesus usualy supped with unbelievers and sinners and not the pharrisees and self rightous.  Where do you fit.

In His LOve

That's different than tha passover feast with his disciples, ya think?
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« Reply #364 on: November 08, 2009, 12:18:40 AM »

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nd if they are unbelievers, we advise them that it is a service for believers only. However they are welcome to stay and watch)
Isnt it funny how the whole purpose of being a christian is to save the lost, but when the ywalk into mans church, they are not allowed to participate, division, the devil loves it. Jesus never thought himself to be above anyone, He washed the smelly feet of His disciples, yet we wont even let not so nicely dressed people in the church. When will we stop making laws like the pharrisees and start just loving everyone, no matter who they are, Just like Jesus.

In His Love

You think an unbeliever should take communion with the believers?

Wrong question.

I don't think anyone would bother gathering with believers if they didn't have some belief.   So, in that context, there would not be any unbelievers at His Table.

Do you think Jesus would want us to be the judge and exclude those whom He has called to His Table?   Scratching head....a little confused.


Gotagoodwife said that he does not allow unbelievers to take communion. I assume that means they admit to not believing.

Are you saying you think somebody who actually says they are not believers would/should take communion?

What are we arguing about here, exactly?

Yes, some unbelievers will take communion, in order to "fit in".  The Lord's table is for believers, who are partaking of Christ.  If you partake of Him wrongly.....  It isn't exclusionism: it is caring for the unsaved, so that they don't bring judgment directly from God upon themselves.  They don't have a clue about all of this stuff, of course, so it is up to us to explain it to them.  To just exclude without an explanation is egregious.  Common courtesy demands that we do it.  We do it while instructing our children on a plethora of everyday things -- why not on the more important things with those who might become children of God?
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« Reply #365 on: November 08, 2009, 12:23:06 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".

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« Reply #365 on: November 08, 2009, 12:23:06 AM »

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« Reply #366 on: November 08, 2009, 12:27:03 AM »

...
As far as excluding those whom He has called to His table - Jesus does not call everybody to take communion, Jesus calls all men to repent and be converted, and then every one who does is welcome at His table ...


You got some Scripture for this sequence of events, Pastor?

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Cally
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« Reply #367 on: November 08, 2009, 02:15:45 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".



Like I say, I'm not sure what we're arguing about at all. Mjrhealth sounded like he objected to not allowing unbelieving visitors to partake in communion.

If you read 1 Corinthians 11, you'd understand that the consequences to someone who took communion in an unworthy manner are severe. How would someone not yet confessing Christ (a self-confessed Christian) be able to properly partake in communion?

Before God it sounds like we're doing them all a favor by keeping them from doing it.
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« Reply #368 on: November 08, 2009, 07:15:05 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".


Do you object to the idea of having two separate services, one for believers and one for unbelievers? The Lord's Supper is for believers, not unbelievers. At 11 AM we have a gospel and teaching service, the gospel is presented clearly, the Bible is expounded, and there is opportunity offered to unbelievers to receive Christ.

If having a communion service for unbelievers sounds like a good idea to some people, and apparently it does,  then perhaps soup kitchens could set up bread and wine dispensers and take having an Agape meal to a whole new level. But that topic and the whole topic of Communion probably needs to be addressed on another thread.
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« Reply #368 on: November 08, 2009, 07:15:05 AM »

 
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phoebe
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« Reply #369 on: November 08, 2009, 07:38:23 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".



Like I say, I'm not sure what we're arguing about at all. Mjrhealth sounded like he objected to not allowing unbelieving visitors to partake in communion.

If you read 1 Corinthians 11, you'd understand that the consequences to someone who took communion in an unworthy manner are severe. How would someone not yet confessing Christ (a self-confessed Christian) be able to properly partake in communion?

Before God it sounds like we're doing them all a favor by keeping them from doing it.

We've discussed this before.  Paul was big on double-meanings.  "unworthy manner" is defined by the context of "discernment" about the Body of Christ, not only His physical body that hung on the Cross, but also the church Body.  The context begins in v.18, where Paul speaks of division, and in 21 where they were being selfish, and discriminating, v.22.  Corinth was a very class-conscious, class-oriented people.  The well-to-do were being pigs.  The "agape" and unity had vanished, replaced by division because of social class order.  He concludes this with "Consequently, when you assemble to eat..."  It is a time of paideuo, v. 32, a time of educating.

He never said in any of his writings to exclude unbelievers, or to make it a closed fellowship.  If you could show me other Scriptural support for this exclusion, I will reconsider my belief on this.

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« Reply #369 on: November 08, 2009, 07:38:23 AM »

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« Reply #370 on: November 08, 2009, 07:40:26 AM »

BTW, I believe Table is something - a function of fellowship - we share in and at, not a form of "elements" we "partake of".
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« Reply #371 on: November 08, 2009, 07:41:54 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".


Do you object to the idea of having two separate services, one for believers and one for unbelievers? The Lord's Supper is for believers, not unbelievers. At 11 AM we have a gospel and teaching service, the gospel is presented clearly, the Bible is expounded, and there is opportunity offered to unbelievers to receive Christ.

If having a communion service for unbelievers sounds like a good idea to some people, and apparently it does,  then perhaps soup kitchens could set up bread and wine dispensers and take having an Agape meal to a whole new level. But that topic and the whole topic of Communion probably needs to be addressed on another thread.

If you don't mind me saying this was one of the things Paul was very much against, for in the same chapter we read how Paul told the Corinthian Church to have their meals at home because the Lords supper was something altogether different.

Here we have it.

"In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgement on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (backsliders). But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgement. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgement.

And when I come I will give further directions.
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« Reply #372 on: November 08, 2009, 07:57:03 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".



Like I say, I'm not sure what we're arguing about at all. Mjrhealth sounded like he objected to not allowing unbelieving visitors to partake in communion.

If you read 1 Corinthians 11, you'd understand that the consequences to someone who took communion in an unworthy manner are severe. How would someone not yet confessing Christ (a self-confessed Christian) be able to properly partake in communion?

Before God it sounds like we're doing them all a favor by keeping them from doing it.

We've discussed this before.  Paul was big on double-meanings.  "unworthy manner" is defined by the context of "discernment" about the Body of Christ, not only His physical body that hung on the Cross, but also the church Body.  The context begins in v.18, where Paul speaks of division, and in 21 where they were being selfish, and discriminating, v.22.  Corinth was a very class-conscious, class-oriented people.  The well-to-do were being pigs.  The "agape" and unity had vanished, replaced by division because of social class order.  He concludes this with "Consequently, when you assemble to eat..."  It is a time of paideuo, v. 32, a time of educating.

He never said in any of his writings to exclude unbelievers, or to make it a closed fellowship.  If you could show me other Scriptural support for this exclusion, I will reconsider my belief on this.



0man is right, and that verse is key:

1 Corinthians 11:34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest your coming together be for judgment. The rest I will set in order whenever I come.

What I underlined goes against your interpretation.

You don't take communion because you're hungry, and that's what some people were doing, as well as getting drunk on the communion wine.

Notice that this passage segues out of the "factions" issue. People were bringing their own portions of food to communion, and the richer were "shaming those who didn't have" with their personal portions in front of them rather than eating at home. So what is brought gets eaten at home. And that was not the Lord's supper. The richer were eating their own personal, larger portions, it sounds like, which shamed the needy, and turned this gathering into a mealtime.
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« Reply #372 on: November 08, 2009, 07:57:03 AM »

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« Reply #373 on: November 08, 2009, 11:39:37 AM »

If they don't get it, we aren't feeding the sheep.

The Table is an opportunity for teaching and sharing the Good News, for remembering out loud the Good News, for remembering His Body given on the Cross as sacrifice for all sins, and for remembering His Body that lives on earth, His Bride, His Church.

I've never seen anyone in a gathering of believers who was there against their will or without at least some idea of Jesus.  Even those who come to churches for handouts know about Jesus.  They know about His birth because of Christmas, and His death because of Easter.  What else is required to be at His Table?  The implication is "You aren't worthy to share at His Table, but we are."  No, that isn't the Jesus I read about.  Are they "believers"?  Only God knows.  (Why would anyone join a gathering of believers if one was truly an "unbeliever"?  Scratching head....a little confused.  )

Don't misapply "worthy". THAT would be "egregious".



Because as scripture states, there's fakes and false sheep out there: in our midst.
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« Reply #374 on: November 08, 2009, 11:51:40 AM »

I have a 9 year old son with Downs.  In some ways, he's just as dumb as a brick.  In other ways, not at all.  Each one is different.  He is a guy that when it comes to food, there's just no self control.  Zero.  Zip.  Zilch.  Any time he sees any kind of food, he's 100% all for it.  So when it comes to communion, and because he seems to have absolutely no understanding of it, to him it is just another opportunity to gratify his physical desires for it.  Pure and simple.  That's all it is to him.  So, as his father, I protect and guard and shepherd him for his own sake, and as that is applied to the communion table, I don't let him partake of it with that banal, sensual mindset, for his sake.  That's done out of love both for him and my God.

It could be argued that because he is naive, or ignorant of it, then it's not an issue for him.  I see the merit of that view.  However, I am not the all knowing, all wise God, and as such, I think it remiss of me to not be proactive for his sake, in case I was wrong in thinking that his ignorance is bliss in this.  Perhaps it would be prudent to have the same care and watchfulness for those that we are witnessing to.  If we personally don't have a clue about them, they might be street bums but very godly children of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  It might be prudent to ask them what they understand before they or any other stranger in our midst partake of it.  (I am not singling them out specifically or in prejudice, but merely using them as an example that is most readily seen by many.)  This was done with me when I was younger, as I used to hitchhike all over the place, and stopped in all sorts of churches.  I considered it watchful and an expression of care and sincere love when the man asked if I was a believer, stating why he asked and giving his concerns for if I wasn't yet partook of the sacraments.  He was very polite and curteous and gentle.  This is love expressed.  

Even open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed.  They don't need rebuke: they need love freely expressed, which shows that it has their wellbeing first and foremost.

Just some thoughts on it.
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