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Offline 19

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Sin against Jesus
« on: Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 14:14:44 »
Acts 9:5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."NKJV

It is clear: If an unbeliever does something to a believer, they do it to Jesus.

Matt 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?  38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?  39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:  42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;  43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'  45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' NKJV

It is clear : if you do something to a brethren of Jesus, you do it to Jesus.

Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, NKJV

It is clear that all Christians are brethren to Jesus. Therefore; if you do something to a Christian, you do it to Jesus.

1 Cor 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. NKJV

It is clear that if a Christian sins against another Christian they sin against Jesus.

Acts 5:4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." NKJV

Is Jesus God?

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Sin against Jesus
« on: Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 14:14:44 »

Offline 19

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #1 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 17:54:59 »
Ananias lied to believers and in so doing he lied to God. So why doesn't God kill all Christians that lie to other believers today?

God's purpose was to keep the early church pure. If Ananias was allowed to be held in high regard for this hypocrisy the early church would have suffered. And we have a record of how God views our sins against our brethren. Hopefully this motivates us to show love and respect to our brethren.

Acts 5:11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. NKJV
 
God's discipline was successful. The church realized that they were going to be held accountable for sin even under grace. God expects His children to conduct themselves as His children.

Is lying to God, face to face or thru lying to a believer, unforgivable? No,  Ananias and wife went to heaven. Their death was a temporal death and not eternal death. 

Was this unforgivable because Ananias lied to the Apostles who were strong in Spirit? No.  If you will notice in Matthew 25 Jesus used the term the “least of these”. Meaning the believer sinned against is not necessarily a spiritual giant. And again in 1Corinithians 8: 12 the sin was against a weak Christian. Therefore, the fact that Ananias lied to the Apostles did not make any difference. Any lie today that we or unbelievers commit against any brethren of Jesus will be charged against us. Believers pay for it in discipline and unbelievers at the white throne.

In Matthew 25 it sounds like the people were sent to eternal punishment for not helping Jesus' brethren. This is not the case. First and foremost the only sin that sends one to eternal punishment is rejection of Jesus. The people in front of the white throne in Matthew 25 had previously been given eternal damnation at an earlier trial for not accepting Jesus as their savior. Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers. They do not enter heaven. Their eternity is to work on earth and to bring tithes and offerings to God in the new Jerusalem. They have an eternity of working for God to bring Him praise. We have and eternity of serving God with fellowship, praise and honor. Ours is a much higher calling which brings us more satisfaction and joy. We see God face to face and the pardoned only see His light.

Offline BlessedCreator

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46 »
"Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers. They do not enter heaven. Their eternity is to work on earth and to bring tithes and offerings to God in the new Jerusalem. They have an eternity of working for God to bring Him praise. We have and eternity of serving God with fellowship, praise and honor. Ours is a much higher calling which brings us more satisfaction and joy. We see God face to face and the pardoned only see His light."

This is completely false. There are only one class of humans that will be saved. And it is those that love and obey Jesus Christ.
For Jesus Himself tells us that the lukewarm, hypocrites and unprofitable servants (self proclaiming Christians) will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (lake of fire).

If lukewarm, hypocritical and unprofitable Christians will not be saved. How much more those that rejected the call of God's grace through the gospel in this life we have.

Also Jesus is God.

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46 »

Offline 19

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 05:40:59 »
"Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers. They do not enter heaven. Their eternity is to work on earth and to bring tithes and offerings to God in the new Jerusalem. They have an eternity of working for God to bring Him praise. We have and eternity of serving God with fellowship, praise and honor. Ours is a much higher calling which brings us more satisfaction and joy. We see God face to face and the pardoned only see His light."

This is completely false. There are only one class of humans that will be saved. And it is those that love and obey Jesus Christ.
For Jesus Himself tells us that the lukewarm, hypocrites and unprofitable servants (self proclaiming Christians) will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (lake of fire).

If lukewarm, hypocritical and unprofitable Christians will not be saved. How much more those that rejected the call of God's grace through the gospel in this life we have.

Also Jesus is God.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I know that Jesus is God. That was a rhetorical question.


Matt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;  36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?  38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?  39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' ….....................................  46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." NKJV

The righteous enter into eternal life because of their works. Christians are not judged for works to enter eternal life. In verse 31 their kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world. It is a worldly kingdom. Our place was prepared for us by Jesus after He ascended into heaven.


Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.  18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.  20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. NKJV


There are sinners on the new earth. We know sinners cannot enter into heaven. We know there is no cursed people in heaven. Therefore there must be people who were not born spiritually on the new earth.

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. NKJV

Jesus description of the new Jerusalem where the throne of God is. The leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations who live outside the gates of the  new Jerusalem. The redeemed get new spiritual bodies like Jesus'. We do not need healing. Only flesh and blood bodies need healing.

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" —  23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. NKJV

God said if flesh and blood  man could eat of the tree of life they would live forever. On the new earth there are flesh and blood people who have to eat of the tree of life to be healed and by extension to live eternally.  All of the scriptures that I have cited speak to flesh and blood people being on the new earth. Jesus said in Matthew those people who had good works done to His brethren would enter into eternity. He did not say they would enter heaven like the redeemed do. He is the only way to the Father. The Father is in heaven.

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 05:40:59 »
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Offline DaveW

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 06:10:21 »
Is lying to God, face to face or thru lying to a believer, unforgivable? No,  Ananias and wife went to heaven. Their death was a temporal death and not eternal death. 
Can you prove that scripturally?  Their specific case?

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 06:10:21 »



Offline 19

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 16:04:30 »
Can you prove that scripturally?  Their specific case?

Their specific case - no I cannot. But there is scripture to justify my conclusion. I am not alone in that belief.


Matt 13:37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.  38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.  39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.  40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.  41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,  42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

Tares (unsaved) are gathered at the end of the world.


Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,  48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.  49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,  50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

In the dragnet parable Jesus says that His angels will gather from His kingdom all those who offend at the end of the age.  Two parables with the same message- the unjust are weeded out at the end of the age.

So if you want a scripture that states Ananias was saved and is now in heaven, I cannot give it to you. 2 parables with the message that God does not weed out the unjust until the end of the age. God is not the God of confusion.  If He says I do not weed out the unjust until the end of the age and He weeds someone out- they are not unjust.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 16:24:38 by 19 »

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 16:04:30 »

Offline lea

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #6 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 17:17:43 »
19 said:
Quote
In Matthew 25 it sounds like the people were sent to eternal punishment for not helping Jesus' brethren. This is not the case. First and foremost the only sin that sends one to eternal punishment is rejection of Jesus. The people in front of the white throne in Matthew 25 had previously been given eternal damnation at an earlier trial for not accepting Jesus as their savior. Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers. They do not enter heaven. Their eternity is to work on earth and to bring tithes and offerings to God in the new Jerusalem. They have an eternity of working for God to bring Him praise. We have and eternity of serving God with fellowship, praise and honor. Ours is a much higher calling which brings us more satisfaction and joy. We see God face to face and the pardoned only see His light.
Some of your ideas make good sense, but know what "the end of the age" is. Not some fictional end of the world.
When Jesus would judge those of Israel who were for or against Him in Matt.25, He was referring to the apostles and disciples of whom the Jews of the time were either for their Hebrew/Christian sect brothers or they were the Israel doomed for wrath because they did not give Jesus' disciples anything to drink, etc.
Thus, those unbelieving brethren went to the "furnace of fire."

Note it was about works during the Law period.  Judged according to their works.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 17:20:07 by lea »

Offline RB

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #7 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 03:39:43 »
"Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers.
You are one very confused person....you may be sincere, that's not for me to judge, but you are loaded with so many false teachings most likely received that from here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/pagan-holidays/msg1055163053/?topicseen#msg1055163053
Quote from: BlessedCreator Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 11:41:25
A lit of the info on this post is from www.Jesus-is-savior.com
Quote from: BlessedCreator on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46
"Those who enter into eternity later are pardoned because of their respectful treatment of Christ thru His believers.
No one is pardon "because of" any work that they may have done~works are only the evidence that one has been born of God through and on the behalf OF Jesus Christ's obedience/righteousness/faith.
Quote from: BlessedCreator on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46
They do not enter heaven. Their eternity is to work on earth
Prove what you are attempting to say by using God's testimony from his word, or else, it is a man-made doctrine which what you are saying is just that. All of God's redeemed have one thing is common~they ALL have been clothed with Jesus Christ's righteousness EQUALLY! There are no second rate Christians that will inherit the WORLD TO COME. We are looking for a new heaven and a NEW EARTH wherein dwelleth righteousness EQUALLY.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:13~"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
Quote from: The writer of Hebrews
Hebrews 2:5~"For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak."
And so do we speak.
Quote from: BlessedCreator on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46
Their eternity is to work on earth and to bring tithes and offerings to God in the new Jerusalem.
Sir, the "NEW" Jerusalem is not a Place, but a PEOPLE, called the Tabernacle of David, where the TRUE HEIR of David shall reign world without END in the mist of his spiritual tabernacle made without hands.
Quote from: John
Revelation 21:1-9~"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
The New Jerusalem is the LAMB'S WIFE with the following scriptures after verse nine describing her eternal glory in highly symbolic language.
Quote from: BelssedCreator on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 22:29:46
There are only one class of humans that will be saved.
Correct....SINNERS, once they are born of the Spirit, they love and fear God, but FAR from PERFECTION~our ONLY hope of eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ who alone will deliver us from this BODY OF SIN AND DEATH. (Romans 7:25) Enough for now.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 03:46:44 by RB »

Offline 19

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #8 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:24:19 »
19 said:Some of your ideas make good sense, but know what "the end of the age" is. Not some fictional end of the world.
When Jesus would judge those of Israel who were for or against Him in Matt.25, He was referring to the apostles and disciples of whom the Jews of the time were either for their Hebrew/Christian sect brothers or they were the Israel doomed for wrath because they did not give Jesus' disciples anything to drink, etc.
Thus, those unbelieving brethren went to the "furnace of fire."

Note it was about works during the Law period.  Judged according to their works.

So you are saying that the Matthew 25 judgment occurs at the end of the age of the law. I disagree.  All the nations are at the Matthew 25 judgment. All the nations were not in Israel when Jesus was rejected.

Hab 2:4 "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith  NKJV

Salvation was by faith in the OT.

Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." NKJV

And it is by faith in the NT. No one earns eternal life, it is by grace. We get it by grace thru faith. It is not of works.


John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

If people could enter into eternity on works without first being condemned then Jusus would be a liar. So the people at the white throne were first given eternal damnation. Then Jesus gave them grace thru charity for His brethren.
2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, NKJV

These people were held under punishment until the white throne. They did not avoid punishment entirely. They know just what they deserve and just how precious grace is.

Now some people say that the Matthew 25 judgment is at the end of the tribulation to determine who enters into the millennium. If a 1000 years is like a day to God I do not see how Jesus could confuse a day with an eternity. 

I'm sorry mister RB I did post about the judgment where Jesus awards those who treated His brethren good entry into eternal life. I posted scripture from Isiah where God created a new earth and a new Jerusalem with sinners on it. Also in Isiah it mentions descendants of these people being born and dying. I posted scripture in Revelation where the leaves are for the healing of the nations. All of these speak of flesh and blood people walking round on the new earth.

Now God did make a new earth in Genesis but He did not make Jerusalem then so when He mentions it in Isiah He must be speaking of the one that we will be living on. Yes all the people that go to heaven, or live in the new Jerusalem, have to have been born again. I am not talking about people being allowed to be born again from the judgment in Matthew. They do not get new spiritual bodies that is why they need the leaves of the tree of life. They do not enter the new Jerusalem which is where God resides.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:27:31 by 19 »

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #8 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:24:19 »

Offline RB

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #9 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:44:04 »
I'm sorry mister RB I did post about the judgment where Jesus awards those who treated His brethren good entry into eternal life. I posted scripture from Isiah where God created a new earth and a new Jerusalem with sinners on it. Also in Isiah it mentions descendants of these people being born and dying. I posted scripture in Revelation where the leaves are for the healing of the nations. All of these speak of flesh and blood people walking round on the new earth.
Greetings 19~I truly did not consider your posts but will later and then I will comment on the same directly to you, but it must be later since I have a few meetings and other things that will take up my time for the most part of the day.  Maybe tomorrow, we shall see.  RB

Offline 19

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Re: Sin against Jesus
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 06:49:14 »
Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people;The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;For the child shall die one hundred years old,But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit;They shall not plant and another eat;For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain,Nor bring forth children for trouble;For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer;And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, NKJV


Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the Lord, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the Lord. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." NKJV


Here are 2 passages from Isaiah . In Isaiah 66: 23 and 24 some translations use mankind, humanity or some other word but the actual word is flesh.  In Isaiah 65 he is clearly mentioning things descendants of Adam do while in the flesh. Things such as sin, die, have children and grow old are of the flesh and are not done by  the redeemed who are spirit beings.

Therefore, we know that in chapter 66 he is talking about flesh and blood. In Chapter 66 they only come before the Lord on Sabbaths and new moons. Bringing  their tithes and offerings. We, however, are always with Him because we are in the new Jerusalem. This new Jerusalem is a place where God lives and flesh and blood people come to worship on sabbaths and other occasions. Then they depart from worshiping at Jerusalem on the new earth.

 

     
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