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Spiritual Gifts
« on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 08:18:22 »
don't forget casting out demons! (or is that under miraculous powers?)

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« on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 08:18:22 »

Offline charlie

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« Reply #1 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 09:36:25 »
I wonder just what percentage of instances of claimed miracles/healings/speaking in tongues are fakes. No way to tell now, of course. But it would be neat to know.

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« Reply #1 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 09:36:25 »

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 08:52:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (OldDad @ Feb. 07 2003,10:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Some random thoughts...

For the record, I voted and believe that all Spiritual gifts mentioned in the Bible are available and in use today.  I have in life and ministry witnessed and experienced all the gifts Nevertheless listed.

Wayne Grudem does a wonderful job of dismantling the notion that the \"perfect\" of 1 Corinthians 13 is anything other than the return of Christ for His church, in his book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today.

I am aware that pagan cultures speak in tongues, practice \"psychic\" healing, etc.  That is why the Gifts cannot, alone, be proof of the work of the Spirit.  The Fruit of the Spirit is the true evidence that the Spirit is active in one's life.  Satan can counterfeit the gifts, he cannot counterfeit the fruit.

OD[/quote]
Old Dad,

I have never really bought into the idea that \"the perfect\" in 1 Corinthians 13 refered to the \"finalized canon of Scripture\".  That, to me, seemed like a complete stretch.

\"The perfect\", \"The complete\", whatever you want to call it, will never come until Christ returns for his church and takes us home.

Kevin

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 08:52:20 »

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 15:22:25 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]don't be surprised at the results of any poll.
[/quote]

Wise words that I should have remembered.  I've always been skeptical of survey results.  Any survey is from the start faulty because it automatically excludes the opinions of those who refuse to answer.

I guess I asked the question because I've found myself whirling in circles lately in a manner of speaking.  I think a certain way, so it is natural for me to think that others think the same way I do.  Then I discover that many people don't think that way and I start thinking maybe I'm the only one?  So I ask my question.

So in this poll, at least, I voted with the majority.  Not sure it helped my understanding any, but maybe. . .

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« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 15:22:25 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 14:58:04 »
what was the purpose of mirculous gifts?

you that say any gift is available today:

why? what is the need for the miraculous gifts of the NT?

why would you need to suddenly speak in another language?

how could you possibly need to heal a man paralyzed from birth?

why should you be able to cast out demons?

in the NT these miracles were believable to the masses,
they proved that Jesus was Jesus and that the apostles were from God
miracles that are claimed today are dismissed by the masses as lies and cause Christians to be labeled as hokey shamans or storytellers

what do miracles do today?

can any of you perform miracles?
what miracles have you seen performed?

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 14:58:04 »



Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 22:55:42 »
As it is the Holy Spirit who does the giving isn't it appropriate for Him to also determine the need?

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 22:55:42 »

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 18:44:34 »
So what do you think?  Does the Holy Spirit give gifts to Christ's followers today or not?  Has the expiration date passed for some gifts?

Here are the spiritual gifts I found:

Speaking
Serving
Wisdom
Knowledge
Faith
Healing
Miraculous powers
Prophecy
Distinguishing between spirits
Speaking in tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Helping
Administration
Teaching
Encouraging
Giving
Leadership
Showing mercy

Did I miss any?

marc

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« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 02:41:11 »
I voted for other, and I have no idea what I mean by that. :alien:

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« Reply #8 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 09:21:00 »
God is so much bigger than we can possibly imagine, and we continue to try to stuff Him into a little box.  I fully believe that God would do \"exceeding abundantly more than we can ask or imagine\" if only we would believe.


newtome, I don't think I've read of a specific gift of casting out demons.  I'm not sure what category I'd put that in.

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« Reply #8 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 09:21:00 »

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #9 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 10:06:46 »
I wonder too.  There's also the fact that our minds can do more with our bodies than we think.  I'm not discounting miracles!  I've experienced miracles in my own life.  I've also experienced what might be called the placebo effect.

I once had a terrible headache.  I had no medicines with me, and by the time I got home I was desperate for relief.  As I swallowed the Tylenol my headache lessened, and within a very few minutes it was completely gone.  Later I thought about it and realized that the medicine could not possibly have worked that fast.  I simply believed so strongly that taking the pills would make my headache go away that my body made it happen.  Of course it's never happened since then because now I \"know better\".   ;)

And headaches are in a completely different category than broken bones, tumors, and death!

Never

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« Reply #10 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 22:33:55 »
Some random thoughts...

For the record, I voted and believe that all Spiritual gifts mentioned in the Bible are available and in use today.  I have in life and ministry witnessed and experienced all the gifts Nevertheless listed.

Wayne Grudem does a wonderful job of dismantling the notion that the \"perfect\" of 1 Corinthians 13 is anything other than the return of Christ for His church, in his book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today.

I am aware that pagan cultures speak in tongues, practice \"psychic\" healing, etc.  That is why the Gifts cannot, alone, be proof of the work of the Spirit.  The Fruit of the Spirit is the true evidence that the Spirit is active in one's life.  Satan can counterfeit the gifts, he cannot counterfeit the fruit.

OD

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« Reply #11 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 23:52:12 »
All's I'm gonna say is that I'm very surprised by the outcome on this poll.  I did not expect such an overwhelming landslide towards the \"all\".  I find this interesting.   :idea: Something to think about.  Thanks to Nevertheless, our crafty pollster.

SoaPMan

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« Reply #12 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 12:27:56 »
I too am surprised by the outcome of this poll.  I expected more of an even split between the two middle choices.

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« Reply #13 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 15:12:24 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]dj wrote:
wise minority still exists among the gcm membership, and takes brave stand against theological immenentists.[/quote]
Considering the writings of the apostles, and those closely associated with them, such a statement would deem them unwise.

But, then again, one of those same apostles wrote the following regarding such wisdom:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory...\" (1 Cor. 2:1-7, KJV)[/quote]
 :thumbup:

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« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 14:12:57 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I wrote the following on on Feb. 8th:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Old Dad wrote:
Wayne Grudem does a wonderful job of dismantling the notion that the \"perfect\" of 1 Corinthians 13 is anything other than the return of Christ for His church, in his book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today.[/quote]
Thanks for the recommendation, OD. I plan on ordering it, and hope to read it by sometime next week.

(By the way, I also voted with the majority... But not because it was the majority.)[/quote]
Well, I picked-up my copy of Grudem's book on Friday. I haven't started it yet, but did skim through parts of it. His analysis of 1 Corinthians 13 is decent, and he makes some valid points... Some of which need to be understood in the context of the rest of the book. (I guess I should read the whole thing before commenting too much further on it!).

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« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 16:33:09 »
:wave:   Hello all, I'm venturing to make my first post today after periodically reading this message board for some time.  I have voted on this poll that any spiritual gift that was ever available is still available.  God has the same awesome power today that He had in times past.  I believe He blesses us with any and all things that are needed to accomplish the task at hand.  Although I have not been gifted with some of the more magnificent gifts, neither have I been in a place of service to Him that such a gift was needed.  The places and times of my life and witness have required other things, and He has been faithful to provide gifts to enable me there.   :clap:

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 16:56:29 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]newtome wrote:
what was the purpose of mirculous gifts?

you that say any gift is available today:

why? what is the need for the miraculous gifts of the NT?

why would you need to suddenly speak in another language?

how could you possibly need to heal a man paralyzed from birth?

why should you be able to cast out demons?

in the NT these miracles were believable to the masses,
they proved that Jesus was Jesus and that the apostles were from God
miracles that are claimed today are dismissed by the masses as lies and cause Christians to be labeled as hokey shamans or storytellers

what do miracles do today?

can any of you perform miracles?
what miracles have you seen performed?

(bold emphasis mine, JR)[/quote]
newtome... Aren't we living in and under the New Testament today? You write \"NT\" almost as if it were past tense... I guess, before I could try and answer some of your questions, that I need a little clarification on this first...

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« Reply #17 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 16:34:34 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Old Dad wrote:
Wayne Grudem does a wonderful job of dismantling the notion that the \"perfect\" of 1 Corinthians 13 is anything other than the return of Christ for His church, in his book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today.[/quote]
Thanks for the recommendation, OD. I plan on ordering it, and hope to read it by sometime next week.

(By the way, I also voted with the majority... But not because it was the majority.)

Offline janine

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« Reply #18 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 09:01:47 »
Of course!  And my mind is wide, wide open to whatever He wants to do.

I'm just waiting to see what actually looks like an action of God-
rather than the kind of circus Paul was trying to correct in the Corinthian church-
before I pass the final judgement to set my opinion \"for\" or \"against\" the visible manifestations of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And I just know that the Lord of all Creation, the King of all Worlds, is waiting around for me to decide how I feel about whether or not ol' Brother So-and-So can really make like a church-sanctioned psychic... :sarcasim:

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« Reply #19 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 01:14:16 »
I believe that God is still all powerful and that the Holy Spirit was for them and is for us today and will be for our future brothers and sisters. I have never spoken in tongues, raised the dead, or healed the sick....but personally I think in NT times it was the HS doing this and not any man...man was simply a willing and obedient tool. I accept that today God may be using us via the HS in diffeent ways that are just as powerful and/or He may be still using a select few with tongues, healing, and raiseing the dead but since He is in charge and knows what is needed and when and where. I just feel we are in good hands with All State(oops I mean Gods State)  :p

Renee

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« Reply #20 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 09:12:19 »
Just thought I throw in my opinion. I voted that all spiritual gifts are still available.  I do not believe they are necessarily needed in full in our society/churches so those gifts are not seen.  I also believe that a lack of faith by those believers in many churches limits the gifts that God gives us.  Spiritual gifts seem to be given based on a specific need.  Just my opinion.

That said.  I have a friend who is a Christian Counselor at a large CoC in Texas who I have discussed this with privately.  He told me that he has been involved with this several times in his counseling and it is very real today.  I have also heard from missionaries who were working in the really primitive areas of the world who have told me they have seen and experienced things that cannot be talked about in our home churches.

Interesting --huh!

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« Reply #21 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 22:54:57 »
Amen, OD!

 :thumbup:

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« Reply #22 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 13:22:23 »
it only reflects the choices of those who are aware of it and who decide to participate.  don't be surprised at the results of any poll.

interpretation of results is where the fun begins -

a) majority vote on gcm board declares Jesus is expected to appear soon!!!
b) wise minority still exists among the gcm membership, and takes brave stand against theological immenentists.
with the minority's demise, the website will complete its collapse into apostacy.

 :D  :p  :eek:  :doh:
dj

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« Reply #23 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 18:08:59 »
So maybe we should say the majority voted with you . . .

 ;)

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« Reply #24 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 20:32:44 »
Some of the churches in our area are holding classes to help Christians find out what their spiritual gifts are.  I attended a class using the NETWORK guide published by Bill Hybels and others of the Willow Creek Community Church in IL.

The course was wonderful. The guide lists 23 spiritual gifts and the scriptures in which they are listed.  It takes several hours to complete the guide.  At this particular church, one could meet with a counselor for an assignment to use his/her spiritual gift/s in the church and/or community; or, in my case, I chose to use my spiritual gifts without assignment anywhere they are needed.  

The guide says every Christian is given at least one gift and uses I Peter 4:10 as the scripture: As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. NASB

Never, I think you listed most of these.  They are:

 1. Administration
 2. Apostleship
 3. Craftsmanship
 4. Creative Communication
 5. Discernment
 6. Encouragement
 7. Evangelism
 8. Faith
 9. Giving
10. Healing
11. Helps (Serving)
12. Hospitality
13. Intercession
14. Interpretation
15. Knowledge
16. Leadership
17. Mercy
18. Miracles
19. Prophecy
20. Shepherding
21. Teaching
22. Tongues
23. Wisdom

The first nine they found in I Cor. 12:8-10.
The next four in I Cor. 12:28.
The next four in Romans 12:6-8.
The next two in Ephesians 4:11.
No. 20 in I Peter 4:9-10.
No. 21 in Exodus 31:3.  No. 22 in I Timothy 2:1-2.
No. 23 in Psalm 150:3-5.

There is a note in the guide that the lists of spiritual gifts provided in the Bible are not identical, but they vary in order and content.  The biblical lists shown in Network are illustrative rather than exhaustive.

I determined that I had three major spiritual gifts.
I have had opportunity to use these gifts countless times in the last few years and just now have learned what names refer to them.  

God Bless
Jane

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« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 16:47:05 »
Poor me, stuck with \"other\" again.

No poll, including the one disastrously messy one I initiated here weeks back, has ever satisfied my need to explain everything in boring detail.

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« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 18:17:35 »
Actually... my post was in response to newtome's 'why do we need' questions.

 

     
anything