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Offline Reformer

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Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 13:24:53 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
DETACHING
Symbolic Jargon From Literal
Phraseology

     In unfolding scripture, here is an attractive principle, “Revelation is what God said. Interpretation is what we think He meant by what he said.” It is not always easy to separate the literal from the symbolic or figurative—or the precise from the allegorical. Biblical books such as Ezekiel and Revelation are two exciting examples.

    A sample: If I wanted to convince you there were animal kings who ruled 2000 years ago, all I’d need do is turn to Jesus’ statement where he called King Herod a fox [Luke 13:31-32]. There! I’ve proven my point. Herod was a literal, run-of-the-mill, fox—a four-legged animal. And so it is with many prophetic interpreters, expressly in the evangelical camp. 

    Many of these prophetic interpreters will turn to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and Revelation, large portions of which are highly symbolic, and they see an actual futuristic day when the leopard lies down with the goat, the cow feeding with the bear, the wolf and the lamb cohabiting, the lion eating straw like an ox, and a young child putting his hand into the viper’s nest without danger [Isa. 11].

    It is questionable that these matters should be understood factually. To me, the exquisite imagery of Isaiah typifies the Messiah’s government in this current age, just as Isaiah 53 typifies the Lamb of God who was smitten for our transgressions. The Lord is saying through the prophet, in chapter 11, that an age is coming—and now exists—when there will be great peace and happiness in the new kingdom or reign, and it will be like a cow feeding with a bear or a wolf that lives with the lamb.

    Four-footed animals and their environments are not what Isaiah is talking about. He is addressing the peace and serenity that will reign in the hearts of God’s children in the redeemed community, the era of grace. That time is now, and has been for 2000 years. We are living in that age! You and I are part of the age Isaiah foretold! Jesus has brought us peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope.

    To put it another way, ours is an age of all ages—an age of which all the old prophets predicted but couldn’t understand. It was to be an age of rescue—an age the angels longed to look into but were not permitted. We have been granted the privilege of being participants of that age or reign. It is now, not tomorrow, at this moment, not when King Jesus “sits upon His earthly throne in Jerusalem,” as the ambiguous doctrine goes. He is seated, at this moment, upon His throne, at the right hand of God [Acts 2:33], and He reigns over his subjects—you and me!

    But what about today’s “prophets” of Armageddon who claim that this battle will be a physical future conflict—fresh-and-blood against flesh-and-blood—and that hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions, will be doing battle upon the hill Megiddo—“Armageddon”—a famous spot in Hebrew history. King Josiah was slain upon this hill [2 Kings 23:29-30]. Here is how the passage reads. “Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon” [Rev. 16:16].   

    In my research, I have found that a future battle is not predicted to be fought there—only a gathering of the kings who were to descend upon Jerusalem and put an end to the established system. This did happen at the predicted time—A. D. 67-70—and culminated in the destruction of the old covenant relationship, Jerusalem, and the Jewish State. That is where the Roman general Titus gathered his army, along with the military support of other kings, for his assault upon Jerusalem. Josephesus, the Jewish historian, who lived during that era, wrote about this calamity. It happened over 1900 years ago. 

    If a renowned historian’s account can be admitted as evidence, “The Battle of Armageddon” is history. Too, the hill Megiddo, along with the surrounding valley, is not large enough to accommodate millions of combatants in a future, literal conflict. But assuming the Battle is not history, we would be compelled to understand it as a moral and spiritual conflict, which has been waged since the Christian movement began.

   I’m inclined to believe it is chiefly a spiritual conflict, although there is strong evidence a great battle was literally fought when the Roman army surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 67-70 A. D. “Armageddon” points to a great battle. This we do not deny. The term, along with the context of Revelation 16, seems to indicate a spiritual warfare, as opposed to a flesh-and-blood warfare.

    Even the apostle Paul stated that we’re not involved in a physical warfare, but in a spiritual combat. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...but against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” [Eph. 6:12]. “Armageddon” is used metaphorically to describe the great spiritual conflict of the New Israel of God in the grace era—the one body of believers, the ekklesia of Christ.

    Our struggle is with King Satan. The children of King Jesus have been struggling with the forces of King Satan since the very inception of the new covenant. I see this conflict, “Armageddon,” as a spiritual engagement between the children of King Jesus and the demons of King Satan. This battle is likely to intensify as the end of all things draws near.

    During the first three centuries of the Christian movement, hundreds of thousands of believers fought against Satan and were slaughtered. They became martyrs for Jesus. And even today, in many foreign countries, Satan is waging war against God’s army. Many are being persecuted to death. Surely this is—figuratively speaking—a “Battle of Armageddon.”

    At this moment, we’re battling Satan head-on. The battle will not end until our King returns and puts an end to all evil, at which time we will be transported to an extension of our golden age—heaven itself
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 22:28:52 by Reformer »

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Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 13:24:53 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #1 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 03:34:29 »
+1 manna for a positive, informative post.

Offline Rella

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 08:32:54 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
DETACHING
Symbolic Jargon From Literal
Phraseology

 




 




    In my research, I have found that a future battle is not predicted to be fought there—only a gathering of the kings who were to descend upon Jerusalem and put an end to the established system. This did happen at the predicted time—A. D. 67-70—and culminated in the destruction of the old covenant relationship, Jerusalem, and the Jewish State. That is where the Roman general Titus gathered his army, along with the military support of other kings, for his assault upon Jerusalem. Josephesus, the Jewish historian, who lived during that era, wrote about this calamity. It happened over 1900 years ago. 

    If a renowned historian’s account can be admitted as evidence, “The Battle of Armageddon” is history. Too, the hill Megiddo, along with the surrounding valley, is not large enough to accommodate millions of combatants in a future, literal conflict. But assuming the Battle is not history, we would be compelled to understand it as a moral and spiritual conflict, which has been waged since the Christian movement began.

   I’m inclined to believe it is chiefly a spiritual conflict, although there is strong evidence a great battle was literally fought when the Roman army surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 67-70 A. D. “Armageddon” points to a great battle. This we do not deny. The term, along with the context of Revelation 16, seems to indicate a spiritual warfare, as opposed to a flesh-and-blood warfare.

 

    Our struggle is with King Satan. The children of King Jesus have been struggling with the forces of King Satan since the very inception of the new covenant. I see this conflict, “Armageddon,” as a spiritual engagement between the children of King Jesus and the demons of King Satan. This battle is likely to intensify as the end of all things draws near.

    During the first three centuries of the Christian movement, hundreds of thousands of believers fought against Satan and were slaughtered. They became martyrs for Jesus. And even today, in many foreign countries, Satan is waging war against God’s army. Many are being persecuted to death. Surely this is—figuratively speaking—a “Battle of Armageddon.”

    At this moment, we’re battling Satan head-on. The battle will not end until our King returns and puts an end to all evil, at which time we will be transported to an extension of our golden age—heaven itself.

Josephus gave us a clear image of what the destruction of the temple was like. And blood and guts were definitely part of it.

As to Revelation prophesies having been completed in 70 AD. Nope. While there are parallels between Daniel, Revelation and others.

You say,
 
Quote
The Lord is saying through the prophet, in chapter 11, that an age is coming—and now exists—when there will be great peace and happiness in the new kingdom or reign, and it will be like a cow feeding with a bear or a wolf that lives with the lamb.

He is addressing the peace and serenity that will reign in the hearts of God’s children in the redeemed community, the era of grace. That time is now, and has been for 2000 years. We are living in that age! You and I are part of the age Isaiah foretold! Jesus has brought us peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope.

It has not happened. We do not have peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope. We only have the promise of such.

The Father leaving us in the lion's cage for 2000 years makes even the most faithful of the believers waver from time to time.

You say

   
Quote
At this moment, we’re battling Satan head-on.


A truthful statement stated truly.

Quote
The battle will not end until our King returns and puts an end to all evil, at which time we will be transported to an extension of our golden age—heaven itself.

The battle, in this age of  peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope ?  ( might be the oxymoron to top all others)

According to some, NOT just on here.... He already has come. He will not return, so say many.

I submit if it is as you say that there are so many metaphorically referenced statements within the holy words of Revelation the entire bible may well have been mostly  metaphors, and not inspired words...  to be an example how it should be  At least Jesus talked in parables, often, and we knew that because we were told often....

When I was a girl, growing up, the Catholics were told not to read the bible. Catholic members of the family to this day have no bible. Now I know why.

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 08:32:54 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:21:24 »

johntwayne & Rella:

    Thanks to both of you for your remarks and contribution to this controversial issue. There are bushels of different views on this topic. Naturally, that is to be expected, when symbolisms are existent.

Buff

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:21:24 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:39:54 »
Rella:

    Just a thought and clarification. You noted above, "It has not happened. We do not have peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope. We only have the promise of such."

    Please return to part of what I said in my column. "He is addressing the peace and serenity that will reign in the hearts of God’s children in the redeemed community, the era of grace."

    Physical, domestic, social, and political peace and serenity are missing in today's world, but for us peace and serenity exist "in the hearts of God's children."

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed May 27, 2020 - 13:46:06 by Reformer »

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:39:54 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #5 on: Thu May 28, 2020 - 17:58:35 »
Many of these prophetic interpreters will turn to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and Revelation, large portions of which are highly symbolic...
And Genesis, don't forget Genesis.  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #5 on: Thu May 28, 2020 - 17:58:35 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #6 on: Thu May 28, 2020 - 20:25:05 »
And Genesis, don't forget Genesis.  ::tippinghat::

You regard Genesis as highly symbolic?

Would that be the basic creation account in Chapters 1 and 2, Adam's disobedience,
the flood, Tower of Babel, or all of it?

Since it covers quite an expanse of time,just curious.

Offline RB

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #7 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 05:14:59 »
In unfolding scripture, here is an attractive principle, “Revelation is what God said. Interpretation is what we think He meant by what he said.” It is not always easy to separate the literal from the symbolic or figurative—or the precise from the allegorical. Biblical books such as Ezekiel and Revelation are two exciting examples.

    A sample: If I wanted to convince you there were animal kings who ruled 2000 years ago, all I’d need do is turn to Jesus’ statement where he called King Herod a fox [Luke 13:31-32]. There! I’ve proven my point. Herod was a literal, run-of-the-mill, fox—a four-legged animal. And so it is with many prophetic interpreters, expressly in the evangelical camp. 

    Many of these prophetic interpreters will turn to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and Revelation, large portions of which are highly symbolic, and they see an actual futuristic day when the leopard lies down with the goat, the cow feeding with the bear, the wolf and the lamb cohabiting, the lion eating straw like an ox, and a young child putting his hand into the viper’s nest without danger [Isa. 11].

    It is questionable that these matters should be understood factually. To me, the exquisite imagery of Isaiah typifies the Messiah’s government in this current age, just as Isaiah 53 typifies the Lamb of God who was smitten for our transgressions. The Lord is saying through the prophet, in chapter 11, that an age is coming—and now exists—when there will be great peace and happiness in the new kingdom or reign, and it will be like a cow feeding with a bear or a wolf that lives with the lamb.

    Four-footed animals and their environments are not what Isaiah is talking about. He is addressing the peace and serenity that will reign in the hearts of God’s children in the redeemed community, the era of grace. That time is now, and has been for 2000 years. We are living in that age! You and I are part of the age Isaiah foretold! Jesus has brought us peace, serenity, deliverance, salvation, and hope.

    To put it another way, ours is an age of all ages—an age of which all the old prophets predicted but couldn’t understand. It was to be an age of rescue—an age the angels longed to look into but were not permitted. We have been granted the privilege of being participants of that age or reign. It is now, not tomorrow, at this moment, not when King Jesus “sits upon His earthly throne in Jerusalem,” as the ambiguous doctrine goes. He is seated, at this moment, upon His throne, at the right hand of God [Acts 2:33], and He reigns over his subjects—you and me!
Bluff, up to this point I would be in 100% agreement with you
Quote
But what about today’s “prophets” of Armageddon who claim that this battle will be a physical future conflict—fresh-and-blood against flesh-and-blood—and that hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions, will be doing battle upon the hill Megiddo—“Armageddon”—a famous spot in Hebrew history. King Josiah was slain upon this hill [2 Kings 23:29-30]. Here is how the passage reads. “Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon” [Rev. 16:16].   
The battle of Armageddon is an interesting subject and not that easy to be 100% correct on but you (Preterist) AND the Pre-mill I'm convinced miss the truth on this battle. While I agree that it will NOT be a battle that will be fought in a certain location (the hill Megiddo) but it WILL be a battle fought WORLDWIDE with the ARMY from heaven in THAT DAY~Jesus Christ and his people against the children of this world!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 19:10-21~"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
This is the LAST GREAT WAR called Armageddon which is also the SUPPER of the GREAT God for ALL fowls of the air to be filled with the flesh of all men from kings to the homeless on the streets major cities throughout this world.
Quote from: Ezekiel
Ezekiel 39:17-22~"And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."
MountainS of Israel is THIS WORLD rightfully belonging to the SPIRITUAL seed of Jesus Christ the TRUE Israel of God. They with THEIR PRINCE Jesus Christ shall come and take it behind the POWER of their GREAT KING Jesus Christ. And THUS shall be fulfilled that which is written:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST'S UNDERSTANDING of Ezekiel 39:17-22
Matthew 24:27,28~For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."
Quote from:  Reformer on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 13:24:53
   In my research, I have found that a future battle is not predicted to be fought there—only a gathering of the kings who were to descend upon Jerusalem and put an end to the established system. This did happen at the predicted time—A. D. 67-70—and culminated in the destruction of the old covenant relationship, Jerusalem, and the Jewish State. That is where the Roman general Titus gathered his army, along with the military support of other kings, for his assault upon Jerusalem. Josephesus, the Jewish historian, who lived during that era, wrote about this calamity. It happened over 1900 years ago.
Your research is against the word of God~you are following an UNBELIEVING Jewish historian INSTEAD of God's testimony of the truth, and it is leading you into errors concerning the TRUTH. Btw, God was LIVING during that time as well that you said Josephus lived ~WHo should we follow, God's word or a biased historian seeking refuge from the Romans. The Preterist speak of Josephus as though he was inspired of God, when in fact he was an UNBELIEVER a borderline atheist.
Quote from: Reformer on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 13:24:53
If a renowned historian’s account can be admitted as evidence, “The Battle of Armageddon” is history. Too, the hill Megiddo, along with the surrounding valley, is not large enough to accommodate millions of combatants in a future, literal conflict. But assuming the Battle is not history, we would be compelled to understand it as a moral and spiritual conflict, which has been waged since the Christian movement began.
IF I was you or any preterist, I would be ashamed to have to look OUTSIDE of the scriptures in order to get support for my understanding of BIBLICAL DOCTRINE. But all preterists that I have come into contact with seem to have no shame in doing so. NEWS FLASH FROM HEAVEN....The word of God is its OWN interpreter!
Quote from: Reformer on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 13:24:53
The battle will not end until our King returns and puts an end to all evil
True...at the LAST GREAT battle called Armageddon that will be fought WORLDWIDE. This IS the same battle as Gog-Magog!
« Last Edit: Sat May 30, 2020 - 07:28:10 by RB »

Offline Alan

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 07:11:13 »
And Genesis, don't forget Genesis.  ::tippinghat::


Bingo!

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 07:11:13 »

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 12:36:10 »
You regard Genesis as highly symbolic?
Yes.

Would that be the basic creation account in Chapters 1 and 2, Adam's disobedience,
the flood, Tower of Babel, or all of it?

Since it covers quite an expanse of time,just curious.
Genesis is a compilation of a bunch of different stories that have been edited together.  The editor has also added significant material to the original stories.

Creation - This original is literally about the creation, but it's also a poem and uses poetic devices, including some not-literal phrases.  The editor has condensed God's 8 creative utterances into 6 days and then added a 7th day, making a second/different point about Sabbath-keeping.

Fall of Man - Hebrew apocalyptic literature. The actors are symbolic, but when de-coded it tells a literal story.  In this case it tells the history of the northern pre-Israelite tribe which was evicted from their homelands by the Amorites and Canaanites.  The editor has added to make a theological point about how God punishes unrighteousness.

Cain and Abel - More Hebrew apocalyptic literature.  When de-coded it turns out to be a history of the Edomite tribes and how they split and part of them joined (became?) Israel in the Negev and Sinai.

The Flood - Mythological mash-up.  There's a re-telling of the creation story of the Hurrians here, but it's been mixed with a re-telling of the Babylonian flood story (which is itself built on the Sumerian flood story).  Somewhere under there was a historical person and event, but the story at this point has become about making a theological point about God punishing wickedness, and about sacrifices appeasing God.

Tower of Babel - Short, literal historical account.  The editor has again played up the theme of God punishing sinners.

Jarrod

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #10 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 13:37:25 »
Hi Reformer,

Your research is definitely in agreement with scripture which never says that a battle would take place at the Armageddon location (Hill of Megiddo).   Only a GATHERING of forces was to take place near that Hill of Megiddo.   This was done by Vespasian at Caesarea, which he had made his base camp for the Roman troops at that coastal city next to the Hill of Megiddo.

As stated in Rev. 16:14, this region near the Hill of Megiddo was not just for the “kings of the whole world” (oikoumenen) to gather.  It was also the gathering site for the “kings of the earth” (ge - of Israel).  This became true for Simon bar Giora’s huge army, because Simon the Zealot leader used the town of Nain near the Hill of Megiddo for his base camp.  This was where he stockpiled stolen supplies to provide for his army’s needs.

Nain, Caesarea, and the Hill of Megiddo are clustered together on the map, and it was from this location that the combatants spread out across the cities and nations in Israel to eventually converge at Jerusalem for the great battle in AD 70.  That’s why scripture says that they “went up on the breadth of the earth” (ge - the land of Israel) before they “compassed the camp of the saints about and the beloved city”.  Inside Jerusalem at that time was a number of saints which God had placed there for ministry during those final days when it became surrounded by armies, both Zealot and Roman.

The decisive battle of “Gog” (which is a name for Israel according to Balaam’s prophecy in the LXX) where the greatest amount of bloodshed took place was on the LITERAL 7 “MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL” located in “the great city” (Rev. 17:19).  This “great city” of Jerusalem in the “midst of the nations” of the land of Canaan was divided into three parts, or three different fates for the people of dying by the sword, famine and pestilence, and also by becoming fugitives with a sword coming after them.  This “second death” for Jerusalem was just like Ezekiel had prophesied for Jerusalem’s first death under the Babylonians (Ez. 5:13). 

Reformer, I would pause before calling Satan “KING Satan” in opposition to “KING Jesus”.  It makes them sound as if they are on an equal footing.  I only ever read of Satan being called the “PRINCE of this world” in scripture (John 12:31), or the “PRINCE of the power of the air” (Eph. 2:2). 

We don’t currently battle this conquered  “Prince” and his devils, (since Romans 16:20 informs us that Satan was going to be crushed under the saints’ feet SHORTLY in their experience), but we surely do battle the “children of the devil” as Christ called them, as well as having to fight our own inclinations to do evil.  These are even worse enemies of God than Satan and his devils ever were, because any sin committed by us is done against God’s grace and mercy extended to humanity and not fallen angels.

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #11 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 14:13:55 »
Guys, I must be honest with you...I 'm going to have a drink and rest the rest of the afternoon before my son's birthday supper tonight BEFORE I even tackle the last two post!
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 13:37:25
We don’t currently battle this conquered  “Prince” and his devils, (since Romans 16:20 informs us that Satan was going to be crushed under the saints’ feet SHORTLY in their experience),
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 12:36:10
Fall of Man - Hebrew apocalyptic literature. The actors are symbolic, but when de-coded it tells a literal story.  In this case it tells the history of the northern pre-Israelite tribe which was evicted from their homelands by the Amorites and Canaanites.  The editor has added to make a theological point about how God punishes unrighteousness.

Cain and Abel - More Hebrew apocalyptic literature.  When de-coded it turns out to be a history of the Edomite tribes and how they split and part of them joined (became?) Israel in the Negev and Sinai.

The Flood - Mythological mash-up.  There's a re-telling of the creation story of the Hurrians here, but it's been mixed with a re-telling of the Babylonian flood story (which is itself built on the Sumerian flood story).  Somewhere under there was a historical person and event, but the story at this point has become about making a theological point about God punishing wickedness, and about sacrifices appeasing God.
God help us! But I do believe Paul will have something to say about these two quotes/post.

Later.............RB
« Last Edit: Fri May 29, 2020 - 14:19:30 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #12 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 15:11:23 »
Hey RB,

I don’t think having a drink, or even a couple drinks and a rest are going to help you interpret this Armageddon prophecy correctly.    Especially since you are diverting to a metaphor that scripture never intended in order to understand what God through Ezekiel 39:2 meant by LITERAL “mountains of Israel”, where Gog’s army would die. 

If Israel in this Armageddon context truly is applicable and equal to the “Israel of God” (which all children of God are a part of), then please tell me how we are to look during a 7-months period for metaphoric bones to bury in a so-called “valley of the passengers on the east of the sea”.   Also, just how we are supposed to metaphorically “burn” the metaphoric weapons of our spiritual warfare with Gog for 7 years after a final battle? 

There reaches a point where interpreting ALL of this metaphorically turns ridiculous. 

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #13 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 22:57:15 »
RB:

   That you may correct one of your statements above, I am not, nor have ever been, a "Preterist." 

    Additionally, the 1,000 years referred to in Revelation is a symbolic number embracing the entire Christian era, which officially began on the First Pentecost following Jesus's ascension [Acts 2].

Buff

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #14 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 23:09:09 »

3 RESURRECTIONS:

    "Reformer, I would pause before calling Satan 'KING Satan' in opposition to 'KING Jesus.' "

    Wicked kings are often referred to in scripture as "king" or "Kings." Jesus referred to wicked king Herod as "king" [Matt. 2:1 & Luke 1:5].

Buff

Offline RB

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #15 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 05:12:14 »
RB:

   That you may correct one of your statements above, I am not, nor have ever been, a "Preterist." 
I have been through with you on this before. Well, Sir you without question you have some of their doctrines rather you fully understand it or not, which seems that you do not especially in the light of 3 Resurrection agreeing with you and himself being a confess preterist (95 %) and you are without controversy are in the same category with the overall doctrine of preterism. 
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 22:57:15   
Additionally, the 1,000 years referred to in Revelation is a symbolic number embracing the entire Christian era, which officially began on the First Pentecost following Jesus's ascension [Acts 2].
Agreed, and that's good~nevertheless, it only proves one thing that your overall teachings on eschatology can and is found in the school of those who have embraced Preterism. If all schools were put together and systematically layout one will see a "few"points of agreement among them all, some more, some less but all may have a point here and there in agreement. 

Why do you not address my disagreements with you if you are not a preterist, defend your post against my rebuttal to you? It a perfect opportunity for you to do so. Prove what you teach, after all you started the thread, you should be prepared to defend your system of escathology. 

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #16 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 05:57:39 »
RB:

   That you may correct one of your statements above, I am not, nor have ever been, a "Preterist." 

    Additionally, the 1,000 years referred to in Revelation is a symbolic number embracing the entire Christian era, which officially began on the First Pentecost following Jesus's ascension [Acts 2].

Buff

Actually the 1,000 years is a symbolic number embracing the entire time between Jesus' first coming and His second coming which is just a slight bit longer than the Christian era.

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #17 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 08:31:25 »
Actually, the millennium had already expired BEFORE John was writing Revelation.

Satan was going to be loosed for a “LITTLE SEASON” AFTER the millennium expired, as Rev. 20:3 and 7 tells us.

John writing in Rev. 12:12 said that Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED ON THE EARTH for only a “SHORT TIME” as he was writing at that time.

Therefore, we can deduce that the millennium was ALREADY FINISHED BACK THEN as John was writing.  Very simple deduction.  Why is this so difficult for so many?

And Reformer, you are employing a classic non-sequitur argument in your attempt to prove that Satan was considered a KING.  King Herod the wicked human is not relevant to calling the wicked cherub Satan a King.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but I never remember seeing Satan described as a KING in scripture - only a PRINCE.  Let’s not give him more power than he actually had.
« Last Edit: Sat May 30, 2020 - 08:36:05 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #18 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 09:32:12 »
Therefore, we can deduce that the millennium was ALREADY FINISHED BACK THEN as John was writing.  Very simple deduction.  Why is this so difficult for so many?
Because it is not true.  It is more than just not true; it is insidiously false. It is the ramblings of those deluded, duped, hoodwinked into the truly ridiculous Preterist teachings.  Now that is the very simple deduction; why is this so difficult for so many Preterists?

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #19 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 09:49:46 »
Begging your pardon, 4WD, but that does nothing at all to address the two verses I supplied that prove my point.

If Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7 do NOT have anything to do with each other, then to be fair, you must on your part show us how they DO NOT compare with each other. 

In other words, it does nothing at all to support your viewpoint if you merely hike a back leg over what I said to show your disdain for it.  As a studious servant of the word of God, you need to go a step beyond that to expound on what the true meaning actually is in those verses I gave. 

Well?
 

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #20 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 12:00:21 »
Begging your pardon, 4WD, but that does nothing at all to address the two verses I supplied that prove my point.

If Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7 do NOT have anything to do with each other, then to be fair, you must on your part show us how they DO NOT compare with each other. 

In other words, it does nothing at all to support your viewpoint if you merely hike a back leg over what I said to show your disdain for it.  As a studious servant of the word of God, you need to go a step beyond that to expound on what the true meaning actually is in those verses I gave. 

Well?

Not to defend 4WD, but I think you are missing the mark here. The truth about these things can be found in the Holy Feasts of the Christ.

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It is written that the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets of Old. That Abel was one such prophet. That Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. So therefore, the serpent that plagued Abel, was the same serpent that plagued all the faithful throughout the entire Bible.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


 This serpent has a short time, as far as time goes, because humans are born, they live and they die. Once dead, the serpent can no longer influence the man, which is here today, gone tomorrow like a vapor.

Passover is the beginning of God's Salvation. This is when God placed the sins of the world, including Abel's, on the Christ's head. He that endures and resists the attacks of the serpent to the end shall be saved, Abel endured to the end, Abraham, Rahab, Stephen, Cornelius,  and all the examples of the Faithful did the same thing.

But at some point the Christ will return and resurrect all these faithful. And the sins will be placed on the head of the serpent where it belongs, and the serpent will be sent into an unhabituated wilderness. This is feast of Atonement.

Lev. 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.


Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There have been religious folks for centuries claiming the "Resurrection is already past", even in Paul's time.

2 tim. 2;15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev. 12 is speaking to the first coming of the Christ, as a Lamb for the slaughter. Rev. 20 is speaking to the 2nd coming of Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, when the Sins of the world are placed back on the head of the serpent from which it came, and he is driven into an uninhabited wilderness.

I would be careful of "other religious voices" out there who would try and convince you that the Christ has already returned, in Power and Glory, and that satan has already been bound for a 1000 years. You wouldn't be the first that has been tricked into believing such things.





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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #21 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 13:00:01 »
Actually the 1,000 years is a symbolic number embracing the entire time between Jesus' first coming and His second coming which is just a slight bit longer than the Christian era.

You almost had it 4WD, if we stop at- " Actually the 1,000 years is a symbolic number embracing the entire time between Jesus' first coming and His second coming."

We are living in the "age to come" in the Bible.  And His kingdom has no end. There's no end of time or end of the world (KJV misinterpretation).

Satan's in the Lake of Fire, and we only fight against the forces of evil in this world - ever since Satan lost all power.  Evil and sin will always be in this worldly realm.

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #22 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 14:29:38 »
Actually, the millennium had already expired BEFORE John was writing Revelation.

Satan was going to be loosed for a “LITTLE SEASON” AFTER the millennium expired, as Rev. 20:3 and 7 tells us.

John writing in Rev. 12:12 said that Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED ON THE EARTH for only a “SHORT TIME” as he was writing at that time.

Therefore, we can deduce that the millennium was ALREADY FINISHED BACK THEN as John was writing.  Very simple deduction.  Why is this so difficult for so many?



Quote
John writing in Rev. 12:12 said that Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED ON THE EARTH for only a “SHORT TIME” as he was writing at that time. Why is this so difficult for so many?

Really?  I don't think so.

Time for  LITTLE STUDY and a reminder that taking any single scripture out of context is never good.

The bible starts with metaphors. The bible ends with metaphors. And the middle is rife with parables,and of course metaphors.

It would appear that IF ..IF The books that were included within the four corners of the bible were actually God's inspired, therefore inerrant words, then HE DOES INDEED INTEND TO BE THE AUTHOR of CONFUSION. For I have never encountered confusion as is expressed among the people who regularly post here.

NOW...

Lets do a mini study on  Rev 12, from the beginning and what it truly says.
Through the 12th verse.

I will use KJV , even though I find it disturbing in spots, simply because  everyone who will be reading this generally is well versed with the language within.


Rev 12:1
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

. A woman clothed with the sun: Because John plainly said this is a sign, we don’t expect this woman to appear literally on the earth. God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us. Women often represent religious systems in Revelation.The Roman Catholics have called her Mary.

Joseph’s dream (Gen37:9-11) the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel. Therefore this woman should be identified with Israel. (So say some, I am not 100% in agreement on this as I explain below)

Further seeming to suggest it may be Mary.


2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Seemingly confirms Mary was the right call, and she is in birth pangs before delivering Jesus.
(sneak a peek at Rev. 12:5... it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus )

Her  pain described often refers to the trials of Israel at the time of Jesus’ birth


3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Of course this is not a real dragon but is an apt descriptive term for one describing his fierce power and murderous nature… a picture of the fullness of evil in all its hideous strength.”

Such as we often may say he is an old goat, meaning an old cantankerous man,not a literal goat.


Dragons have always been thought of as evil and mean.

This specific dragon had great power  indicated by seven heads and ten horns and with seven  crowns to represent his presumptive claims of royal authority against the true King.(Jesus)  He wants to be considered a king.


"Parallel references in Daniel 7:7-8, 2, it is clear that the revived Roman Empire is in view… The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8, who is to be identified with the world ruler of the great tribulation who reigns over the revived Roman Empire.” (Walvoord)

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

His tail drew a third of the stars and threw them to earth.  Many believe this describes  the third of the angelic host in league with Satan . We all know, or should that this army of angelic beings in league with Satan makes up the world of demonic spirits.

If you do not know this...go away and study it and then come back.

It gets really interesting and with total clarity for all to see from this point forward.


The ATTEMPT  to devour her Child was initially fulfilled by Herod’s attempts to kill Jesus as a child as we are told in Matthew 2:16-18. It was also attempted throughout Jesus’ life as Satan attacked Him (John 8:58-59 and Mark 4:35-41).

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 Clearly, this refers to Jesus Christ, the Messiah. By stating the starting point and ending point of Jesus’ earthly work, John alluded to all that stood in between.

This is obviously Jesus meaning that the woman of Revelation 12:1 cannot be the church, because Jesus “gives birth” to the church, not the other way around.The woman must therefore either be Mary or Israel, the only two “women” who could have “given birth” to Jesus. The rest of Revelation 12 will demonstrate that this woman is Israel, not Mary. ( ?? We shall see)


6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Some believe that the woman is Israel and not Mary. How could Mary possibly flee into the wilderness in this way?

Now we know, from the Gospels that there is no mention that Mary fled  into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. But........

But I ( Rella) say it could actually be Mary as we are told.... Immediately after their departure, Joseph, warned by (Matt.2 :13-15.) God in a dream, takes Mary and Jesus and goes down into Egypt.

The family could have fled  to Egypt as I have read they were gone between 3 and 4 years. And that timing would cover that 3 1/2 year period.

 Also, we know it is a fact of a minimum of 2 years because of Herod's
killing those 2 year old males and under we know that Herod thought Jesus could be a 2 year old, based on when the Wisemen had talked with him.  But this is just my reasoning an cannot definitively prove... yet)


7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

This is the first mention of when anyone was kicked out of heaven. NO mention of being chained or bound for 1000 years.Just being expelled. Nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

So a war breaks out in heaven. It is at the mid point of the great tribulation, God will turn the tide against Satan – first in heaven, then on earth. A battle will take place that will deny Satan access to heaven.

This battle will take place mid point in the 7 years describe by Daniel.


8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

This shows us that up until this happens (at the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week), Satan does have access to heaven, where he accuses God’s people before the throne.  This is referenced also back in Job 1:6-12

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is an important verse. It shores up the thinking that many have regarding the serpent in the Garden of Eden as being Satan. Rev. here says the serpent IS called
the Devil and Satan

Just a note of interest .Do you know that Satan had four falls? Yes I am sure you do... I never put them in a list though until doing this study again.


1 - From glorified to profane (Ezekiel 28:14-16)

2- From having access to heaven(Job 1:12; 1Kings 22:21,Zech 3:1) to restriction on earth (Rev 12)

3.From the earth to bondage in the bottomlesspit for 1000 years.( Rev 20)

4. From the pit to the lake of fire(Rev 20)


We know that Jesus said, in Luke 10:18 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightening fall from heaven.

What we do not know is if this refers either to the first fall of Satan (from glorified to profane), or it is a prophetic look ahead to the second fall at the mid-point of the seven year tribulation period.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Condensing these 3 verses into the following.

We see that a battle ensued and Satan lost.

We see that he, and his angels were thrown from Heaven to earth.


We see that it is when he was first thrown down from heaven that John used those words,"short time".

We know the loud voice heard  is not an angel or God – because the voice speaks of the accuser of our brethren.


We know the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down: Satan’s work of accusing only ends here, when he is cast out from his access to heaven.

And yes, We kow he knows that he has a short time: Satan’s power is real and terrifying, but not because he is triumphant, but because he knows he is beaten and has a short time left.


The short time left, by earthly count may seem long to you. But in God's time,since he created earth and until the final end will only be a blink of an eye in relation to eternity. IOW " A very short time".

So NO NO NO

Therefore, we cannot  deduce that the millennium was ALREADY FINISHED BACK THEN as John was writing.

No even close.


Nor Rev 12:12

Not even close as Rev 12:12 could not be at the end of the 1000 years. [/size]







Offline lea

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #23 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 15:18:49 »
First of all, Rev.12 and 20 are recapitulation chapters. And yes, the time was short for the devil .But now we see not all things put under him." Heb.2:8, 10:13). It is this period between Christ's obtaining the kingdom as a matter of law, and the manifestation if His glory as a matter of fact (1TIM.6:15; Acts 3:21, that John in Revelation refers to when he says the devil has a short time.

Revelation 12:13,14,
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a
time, from the presence of the serpent.


Throughout scripture, God is poetically described as hiding his people under the shadow of his wings (Ps.17:8, 36:7;57:1) The image of the woman borne upon eagle's wings from the face of her prosecutor similar to the flight of Israel from Pharaoh. (Deut.32:10,11)

As Israel was carried by God for 40 years in the wilderness from the face of her prosecutors.
Several writers have seen this passage reference to the flight of the church from Jerusalem to escape the siege by Rome because of the time, times and half time and the 42 month period trodding down by the Gentiles.

However, the better view is that these are not the same. The woman is fleeing prosecution, not the siege by Rome. The flight depicted here is better understood as referring to the dispersion that happened at he persecution of Stephen (AD36.)

Offline Reformer

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #24 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 16:11:52 »
RB:

    I’m not sure what is prompting your confusion on what I believe and what I don’t believe. But you are, to a point, bewildered—as the following remarks from you demonstrate.

    “I have been through with you on this before. Well, Sir you without question you have some of their doctrines whether you fully understand it or not, which seems that you do not especially in the light of 3 Resurrection agreeing with you and himself being a confess preterist (95 %) and you are without controversy are in the same category with the overall doctrine of preterism.”   

    I was among the first to take Max King, founder of the modern-day Preterist doctrine, to task. That was decades ago. If you will go to http://www.mindspring.com/~renewal/A.D.70Advent.html you will find two episodes on my Website to confirm my allegation. But to persuade you even more, and hopefully to alleviate some of your confusion, below is a portion of Section 1 of the two Website columns.
_____

    Some of you may find it hard to believe that a movement within the Christian community has been “modernized” and launched by those who teach that the second personal advent of Messiah Jesus occurred in A. D. 70, during or immediately following the Roman/Jewish war. Scenarios branching off the main thrust are: 1] The resurrection transpired at that time; 2] The “last days” of Judaism ended; 3] The Kingdom of God was ushered in; 4] A new age began. The advocates of this doctrine call themselves “Preterists,” a theological term that expresses past action or state.

    This doctrine is rapidly gaining momentum and capturing some of the brightest minds in the Christian community. Its basic thrust, as noted above, is that Jesus will not be personally and visibly returning again, because, as per the affirmation, His second personal appearance occurred in A. D. 70. Many of you probably have never heard of this belief system. If not, you will, for within the last few decades it has spread into most segments of the Christian community. Many Websites are now devoted to this teaching.

    Let it be said that if any portion of scripture used by Preterists to support their position collides with other specific and clearly-spoken portions of scripture, they err and the foundation of their major premise crumbles. With this in mind, I hope to cut at the very taproot of this belief system and thus by-pass unnecessary clutter. That taproot will consist of at six Themes.

    It is vital to understand that if Jesus made His second personal advent in A. D. 70, the immensity of the event would have prompted someone to mention or write about it after that date. But no! It is not recorded anywhere. This fact is a burr under the Preterist’s saddle that cannot be extracted, for he cannot provide testimony from anyone, including “church fathers” who lived in A. D. 70 and beyond, that the Messiah made His personal advent at that time.

    Not even Josephus, who covered the Jewish/Roman war, wrote anything about the personal arrival of a Messiah. This matter would have been newsworthy, the greatest newsflash to have ever occurred, yet no one recorded it.

    Why? Why wasn’t this celebrated event recorded, publicized, and proclaimed? Surely God the Father would have thought it important enough to notify His whole creation of a matter that was prophesied and written about by numerous of His servants through the centuries. Yet the presumed event remains silent.

    That Jesus came in judgment upon the rebellious Jews in A. D. 70, as prophesied in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and as history records, no honest student of heaven’s testimony will deny. But that He made His second personal advent at that time, most will deny.

    Tell me, please, which newsflash would have been more meaningful in A. D. 70, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State or the second personal advent of our Savior? We know the answer. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State were splashed all over—published and proclaimed. But nothing, zero nothing, is said about Jesus making His second personal arrival. The presumption must follow that the hypothesis, which claims that He made His second personal coming in A. D. 70, is defective and highly questionable.

_____

    I suggest, RB, you connect to that Website column to read the remainder. And then tell me if you still think I’m a Preterist—or even a partial Preterist.
« Last Edit: Sat May 30, 2020 - 16:17:42 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #25 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 16:23:12 »
Thanks for the post~I will read it carefully tomorrow the day is far spent for me. RB

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #26 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 16:42:47 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh:

    The Flood - Mythological mash-up.  There's a re-telling of the creation story of the Hurrians here, but it's been mixed with a re-telling of the Babylonian flood story (which is itself built on the Sumerian flood story).  Somewhere under there was a historical person and event, but the story at this point has become about making a theological point about God punishing wickedness, and about sacrifices appeasing God.”
_____

    If you have never read ”THE FLOOD” by Alfred M. Rehwinkel [1951], I strongly recommend you do so. He presents some of the strongest physical evidence I have ever encountered of a Global Flood, as described in Genesis.

    Additionally, I have done some “on the spot” research of a Global Flood. In Nebraska, as one example among many, there’s a National Park dedicated to evidence of a Global Flood. I’ve been there and checked out the “evidence.” I walked away even more convinced of a Global Flood.

    If you don’t have the book alluded to above, you might possibly find one in your local Library. I have one of the original copies.

Buff 

Offline Amo

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 17:24:08 »
"Christian" evolutionists cannot allow for a literal global flood. It destroys the deep time scenario evolution requires.

Offline Amo

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #28 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 17:41:47 »
RB:

   That you may correct one of your statements above, I am not, nor have ever been, a "Preterist." 

    Additionally, the 1,000 years referred to in Revelation is a symbolic number embracing the entire Christian era, which officially began on the First Pentecost following Jesus's ascension [Acts 2].

Buff

https://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-millennium-in-catholic-tradition.html

Quote below from link above.

Quote
The Millennium in Catholic Tradition

............................................ ..........................


Ever since St. Augustine of Hippo presented his understanding of the Apocalypse in the monumental work City of God, Catholic theologians have unswervingly adhered to the amillennialist position, which holds that the "millennium" began with the binding of Satan in the ministry of Christ, and that this "1000 years" symbolises the age of the Church as the kingdom of Christ on earth. For Catholics, Christ is already the King who reigns from heaven forever, and has done since the Incarnation - we do not need to wait until some point in the future for His millennial reign from heaven.  Indeed accepting the amillennialist position outlined by St. Augustine (who as a doctor of the Church, is considered by Catholic theologians to be the ultimate authority on this matter).........................................

I take it then, that your title of Reformer, is not in connection with the Protestant Reformers, correct? Your position seems to be of Catholic origin.

Offline lea

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #29 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 18:41:20 »
https://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-millennium-in-catholic-tradition.html

Quote below from link above.

I take it then, that your title of Reformer, is not in connection with the Protestant Reformers, correct? Your position seems to be of Catholic origin.

Amo, are you a Jehovah Witness?

Offline Reformer

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #30 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 21:40:53 »

Amo:

    "I take it then, that your title of Reformer, is not in connection with the Protestant Reformers, correct? Your position seems to be of Catholic origin."

    I’m neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic. I’m an independent believer. To express it in another fashion, “I’m a free man on the loose,” trying hard to find a cure for “mad church disease!” Together, with the Lord’s help, we may find a cure for this morbid condition. 

    My principal ministry is reformation. This is where the good Lord has planted me, and this is where I must take root and grow—with His approval and blessing. There are many songs that have never been sung, many voices that have never been heard, and many hearts that have never been touched.

    If I’m chosen to sing one of those songs, I want it to resound! If I happen to be one of those voices, I want to be heard! And if I’m one of those hearts, I want to be humbled—but only to the glory of my God, and then only if His favor rests upon me.

Buff

Offline 4WD

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #31 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:32:02 »
This is where the good Lord has planted me, and this is where I must take root and grow—with His approval and blessing.
It is exceedingly strange how the good Lord has planted so many with opposing, even contradictory, views in the same place at the same time.  I strongly suspect that the good Lord had no part in any of it for any of them.

Offline Amo

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #32 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 11:40:19 »
Amo, are you a Jehovah Witness?

No. What makes you ask?

Offline Amo

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #33 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 11:46:55 »
Amo:

    "I take it then, that your title of Reformer, is not in connection with the Protestant Reformers, correct? Your position seems to be of Catholic origin."

    I’m neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic. I’m an independent believer. To express it in another fashion, “I’m a free man on the loose,” trying hard to find a cure for “mad church disease!” Together, with the Lord’s help, we may find a cure for this morbid condition. 

    My principal ministry is reformation. This is where the good Lord has planted me, and this is where I must take root and grow—with His approval and blessing. There are many songs that have never been sung, many voices that have never been heard, and many hearts that have never been touched.

    If I’m chosen to sing one of those songs, I want it to resound! If I happen to be one of those voices, I want to be heard! And if I’m one of those hearts, I want to be humbled—but only to the glory of my God, and then only if His favor rests upon me.

Buff

Lucky for you, and many of the rest of us, salvation is not found in a denomination. Though some denominations are obviously closer to biblical truth than others. Each individual will be judged according to their connection with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or not, and He Himself unquestionably knows who is and is not. So be it. Praise His holy, pure, righteous, and undefiled name.

Offline RB

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Re: Symbolic Jargon vs. The Literal
« Reply #34 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:00:26 »
RB:

    I’m not sure what is prompting your confusion on what I believe and what I don’t believe. But you are, to a point, bewildered—as the following remarks from you demonstrate.

   
Reformer, be patient with me~ I want to do my homework before just jumping in and uttering off a few words without fully knowing your position....not preterism, but what YOU believe. So, let me go and read from your site then I'll come back. That would be the only right way of dialoguing with folks. I must be rightly informed before talking.  Let me see clearly where I have seen your lack of knowledge between the four schools of eschatology, or why I think it is there base upon some of your terminologies used by you. If wrong, then an apology is forthcoming, and if I prove to you that you are using certain phrases that a school you do not think you align with uses, then you should apologize, or at least confess your error. Fair enough?  Be back after my homework is finished.

3 Resurrection, I owe you a post as well. But it will not come today or even tomorrow........ my cup is running over! A little different substance of running over!  ::smile::