Author Topic: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?  (Read 5416 times)

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Offline LightHammer

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Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« on: Wed Jan 26, 2011 - 21:07:20 »
I was just wondering what every one considered the requisits of salvation. Like what do we have to have in order to be saved? Among those requisits what are primary and secondary and so on? I alos wanted to gauge why people believe these requisits to be the true requisits of salvation. Like where in Scripture does it validate your point or if you just believe through a deeper relationship with God you validate your knowledge of such.

I'm not like trying to debate or anything but you guys can if you want. I just want to see how much we differ.

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 00:35:13 »
I was just wondering what every one considered the requisits of salvation. Like what do we have to have in order to be saved? Among those requisits what are primary and secondary and so on? I alos wanted to gauge why people believe these requisits to be the true requisits of salvation. Like where in Scripture does it validate your point or if you just believe through a deeper relationship with God you validate your knowledge of such.

I'm not like trying to debate or anything but you guys can if you want. I just want to see how much we differ.

What must YOU do?

Apparent Answer: Keep the Law Perfectly

Problem: You cannot

Ultimate Answer: Theres nothing YOU can do

Lesson and Moral of the Story: Only God Can Save You

The problem with the question is the question itself

But Jesus always deals with each person on the basis of that person's need, according to where we are in our understanding of who He is according to what we believe in our heart and what we ask or speak

He always asks people to speak their need study the gospel he always asks
 What do you want? Do you believe? Wilt thou be whole?

Afterward quite often He says something like YOUR FAITH has healed you or something similar

Now....In this case read Luke 18 again, but this time start at verse 17

In this verse Jesus tells us specifically how to enter the Kingdom

Luke 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 07:08:46 »
.
Well, I don’t usually participate in locker-room bull sessions but this time I'm inclined to make an exception.

†. John 3:14 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

That passage is one of the Lord's more serious statements that isn't getting enough press these days. He keyed the appreciation of his crucifixion to Num 21:5-9, where Yhvh's people became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their Lord and Master for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational, angrily demanding better food. In reply; The Lord sent a swarm of poisonous vipers among them; which began biting and killing people; and every bite was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people realized their mistake and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to fashion a metallic effigy of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to the effigy for relief.

Apply the elements of that event to Jesus' crucifixion and you'll have a pretty good idea of just how desperate things really are for mankind. A man's only chance of escaping the wrath of God is the crucifixion; there are no other God-given remedies : not church attendance, not sacraments, not love, not charity, not the Eucharist, not rosaries, not scapulars, not confession, not piety, not morality, not tithing, not commandments, not holy days of obligation, not fasting, not the golden rule, not the Sermon On the Mount, not self denial, not even one's own personal religious affiliation nor anything else one might associate with salvation will do, not even prayers, because until one believes in the Lord's crucifixion as their one and only chance to escape judgment, they are a dead man walking.


†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.

Here's how to take advantage of the one God-given remedy for your own already-condemned to Hell status.

Find a private spot— a restroom, out in the garage, in your bedroom —any place that works for you. Put your face in the palms of your hands and ask God if you can take advantage of His son's crucifixion to ransom your soul from the wrath of God.

Some people may scoff at my recommendation as just another silly sinner's prayer. But I am not recommending that anybody pray about this until first accepting Jesus' application of the serpentary effigy that Moses constructed in Num 21:5-9; otherwise their prayer will result in a ping.

First off; it is essential to be fully convinced in your own mind that you are already condemned to Hell, no waiting period. Secondly; it is essential to be fully convinced Jesus' crucifixion will remedy your status just as effectively as the serpentary effigy remedied the Jews' snake-poison status. And don't be afraid to make this request. The Lord testified that he will turn no one away.


†. John 6:36-37 . . All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will by no means drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 09:56:29 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 09:56:29 »

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 10:10:22 »
I was just wondering what every one considered the requisits of salvation. Like what do we have to have in order to be saved? Among those requisits what are primary and secondary and so on? I alos wanted to gauge why people believe these requisits to be the true requisits of salvation. Like where in Scripture does it validate your point or if you just believe through a deeper relationship with God you validate your knowledge of such.

I'm not like trying to debate or anything but you guys can if you want. I just want to see how much we differ.

What must YOU do?

Apparent Answer: Keep the Law Perfectly

Problem: You cannot

Ultimate Answer: Theres nothing YOU can do

Lesson and Moral of the Story: Only God Can Save You

The problem with the question is the question itself

But Jesus always deals with each person on the basis of that person's need, according to where we are in our understanding of who He is according to what we believe in our heart and what we ask or speak

He always asks people to speak their need study the gospel he always asks
 What do you want? Do you believe? Wilt thou be whole?

Afterward quite often He says something like YOUR FAITH has healed you or something similar

Now....In this case read Luke 18 again, but this time start at verse 17

In this verse Jesus tells us specifically how to enter the Kingdom

Luke 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 10:10:22 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 10:16:33 »
Speaking of salvation, here's a great resource for asking God to bring more to receive that blessed free gift:

http://www.operationworld.org/country-lists

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 12:00:33 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 

Offline trifecta

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 13:26:39 »
.
Well, I don’t usually participate in locker-room bull sessions but this time I'm inclined to make an exception.


I hesitate too Weber, but here I go.

Quote
†. John 3:14 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

That passage is one of the Lord's more serious statements that isn't getting enough press these days.


Yeah, we all have our favorite verses, but who is to decide which quotes are most important (Don't worry, an answer is coming.

Quote
Apply the elements of that event to Jesus' crucifixion and you'll have a pretty good idea of just how desperate things really are for mankind. A man's only chance of escaping the wrath of God is the crucifixion; there are no other God-given remedies : not church attendance, not sacraments, not love, not charity, not the Eucharist, not rosaries, not scapulars, not confession, not piety, not morality, not tithing, not commandments, not holy days of obligation, not fasting, not the golden rule, not the Sermon On the Mount, not self denial, not even one's own personal religious affiliation nor anything else one might associate with salvation will do, not even prayers, because until one believes in the Lord's crucifixion as their one and only chance to escape judgment, they are a dead man walking.[/size]

Here is where you lose me.  I was taught this too and believed it for many years, but it just ain't so.  Firstly, the crucifixion is not the single key to salvation.  The Scriptures speak more of the resurrection:

And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.  Acts 4:33

        But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. I Cor 15:210-1

             Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  I Peter 1:3.

More importantly, this idea of Christ paying for our sins on the the cross and us having no response but to believe is relatively new.  It just isn't historic.
It is called the penal substitution theory and it was introduced in the church in the 11th century by Anselm.   True, a germ of it was promoted by Augustine.  But it was, with due respect and excuse my view of the vernacular, viewed as a crank theory by the church for 1500 years.  The Protestants picked it up and ran with it.

Of course, this posed a huge problem for Protestants: as where was the church for 1500 years?   Some believed the church fell away quickly, others say later on.  Or maybe . . . the church was there all along and it is the Protestants who came up with these novel ideas.

Gospel says,

Quote
We can add nothing to what God has done for us.  The working out of our salvation (after God has already saved us) is now God saving us from our sin among other things...just thought I would add that

But note this verse:
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

There is no easy way to defend your positions with this scripture.  No, we don't sit comfortable in our own salvation.  We approach salvation with reverence (and as the verse says) fear.  Bragging about that we are saved is not a fearful, but arrogant way to approach the issue of salvation.
Gospel is reading way outside the verse.

I like this verse; there is not enough time spent on it these days.  I'm not trying to be snarky, but  I can play that card too.   So, who is right me or you?  (I'm coming to that).

A Protestant response to Phil 2:12 is to look at what follows:

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

This, for me, relates to the whole issue of salvation:
Who is doing the work here?  Me?  God?  No, it is God and me.  It is a cooperation with God.  This is how we work out our salvation.

Protestantism is about the crucifixion.  It is the acceptance of the fact that Christ died for our sins.  True, but it is not be all and end all of
the more complex issue of salvation.

Eastern Orthodoxy is about the resurrection.  In Protestant theology, the resurrection really doesn't matter.  It is just evidence of his
Godship.   But in Orthodoxy, the resurrection is important because it is the way that we can escape death.    Jesus trampled death by
dying.  Since he didn't sin, he couldn't be held in hell so he took people with him.  How cool is that!

Not dying is one thing; living is another.  We participate in God's activities through the sacraments (and prayer, evangelism, among other things).
 They help us to commune with God--to give us life! 

So, we both have good arguments,  who is right?  Protestants argue by quoting Scripture, but the historic test gives us a far clearer answer.
The test is what has been believed throughout history, everywhere and by everybody.   The answer is the historical church.  A group of Protestants lead by Peter Gillquist wanted to find out what the historical church really believed:  Much to their own surprise, the early church was hierarchical, sacramental, and eucharistic.  This is the church that Jesus established in Matt 16:18.   There are only four churches that can make this claim.  I believe the church was both the right faith and historicity is the Orthodox Church.

I work out my own salvation by following the church, doing what they tell me to do, for Christ loves his bride.

Thanks for reading.

Offline fish153

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 13:34:46 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

Amen!

"Lord, with your help I hope to remain one of your flock.  Give me the strength so I don't stray away".

or

"Lord, I place all my faith in what you have promised as the Good Shepherd.  Please keep me as you've promised to do Lord, because I'll stray for sure without your leading--I am too weak in myself to follow you--I trust YOU and your PROMISES alone to bring me safely home"

True faith puts confidence in the Lord and His promises, not in our own abilities.  ::smile::

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 13:34:46 »

Offline candy

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 14:04:45 »
Amen fish ::amen!::

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 14:12:19 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

Amen!

"Lord, with your help I hope to remain one of your flock.  Give me the strength so I don't stray away".

or

"Lord, I place all my faith in what you have promised as the Good Shepherd.  Please keep me as you've promised to do Lord, because I'll stray for sure without your leading--I am too weak in myself to follow you--I trust YOU and your PROMISES alone to bring me safely home"

True faith puts confidence in the Lord and His promises, not in our own abilities.  ::smile::

 ::announcment:: HALLELUJAH!!!!

Great post Fish!

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 14:32:40 »
Quote
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

This scripture is one of the most misused and misunderstood in the epistles. Rather than reading outside the verse I understand the verse and not reading a denominational viewpoint or doctrine into it..

Bottom line

You can't work out something you do not have

If I say work out you finances ...that does not mean go get some finances, it means learn to effectively manage and utilize the finances you have

If I say work out your marriage...that doesn't mean go get married, it means learn how to love, understand, live with and get along with your spouse

Next fear and trembling ...this is deep reverence, awe and worship of God for who He is and not being afraid of God but deep reverence and humility for His power. Something like but far, far more than you would have for a police officer, a judge or the President of the United States.

In the same way you climb a very high mountain and go out to the cliff's edge, you are in awe of the majesty of the view and the height, you fear what would happen if you would fall from such a precipice, so you will not be on that cliff doing a little soft shoe shuffle, a two step Cha-cha or an Irish jig.

It is fear that is more of a respect for where you are and the consequences of not respecting the situation.  
 
The next verse reiterates my first point

for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure
Philippians 2:13


God is in you, you're not trying to get saved, you are saved, God is in you working, helping you work out what He has put in  ::shrug::

Lastly the phrase fear and trembling is a common phrase throughout the bible that designates respect reverence, humility servitude and awe

Paul used the same phrase in writing to the Corinthians

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 1 Corinthians 2:3

Was Paul equating the Corinthians to God?

Of course not!

Read the previous verse you'll see he was expressing the principle of humility.

Work out you salvation in the humility of knowing the power of God is Great and He is within you working on your behalf

« Last Edit: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 14:59:56 by gospel »

Offline trifecta

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 16:56:39 »
gospel,

Quote
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

This scripture is one of the most misused and misunderstood in the epistles. Rather than reading outside the verse I understand the verse and not reading a denominational viewpoint or doctrine into it..



I know you mean well, but you are putting your opinion here above all denominational views.   

You resort to my interpretation is better than yours.   
 

Quote
Bottom line

You can't work out something you do not have

If I say work out you finances ...that does not mean go get some finances, it means learn to effectively manage and utilize the finances you have

If I say work out your marriage...that doesn't mean go get married, it means learn how to love, understand, live with and get along with your spouse

Next fear and trembling ...this is deep reverence, awe and worship of God for who He is and not being afraid of God but deep reverence and humility for His power. Something like but far, far more than you would have for a police officer, a judge or the President of the United States.

In the same way you climb a very high mountain and go out to the cliff's edge, you are in awe of the majesty of the view and the height, you fear what would happen if you would fall from such a precipice, so you will not be on that cliff doing a little soft shoe shuffle, a two step Cha-cha or an Irish jig.

It is fear that is more of a respect for where you are and the consequences of not respecting the situation.   


Let me counter by saying "working out" is obviously a process.  Protestants make the mistake that santification is outside the salvation process.


Quote

The next verse reiterates my first point

for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure
Philippians 2:13


God is in you, you're not trying to get saved, you are saved, God is in you working, helping you work out what He has put in  ::shrug::


This is based on what?  You say that you are already saved and God is working to make you better.   
Again, this is not what Paul or the early church taught.  Protestant theologian EP Sanders says that Paul did not view santification
outside the salvation process. 

Quote
Lastly the phrase fear and trembling is a common phrase throughout the bible that designates respect reverence, humility servitude and awe

Paul used the same phrase in writing to the Corinthians

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 1 Corinthians 2:3

Was Paul equating the Corinthians to God?

Of course not!

Read the previous verse you'll see he was expressing the principle of humility.

Work out you salvation in the humility of knowing the power of God is Great and He is within you working on your behalf


Where does humility (nevermind deep humility) come in with the idea that I am already saved? 

Been there, done that. Now I can move on with the rest of my life. 

This is what many Protestants think.  In my opinion, it is cheap salvation -  and expresses very little humility.

The historic church did not believe this.  It has 2000 years of holy people behind it.  Believe the church is correct, not individual
nondenominational interpretations.  Where is the truth to be found?  In the church (I Tim 3:15).
 
Blessings to you!


Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 17:15:59 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

This scripture is one of the most misused and misunderstood in the epistles. Rather than reading outside the verse I understand the verse and not reading a denominational viewpoint or doctrine into it..



I know you mean well, but you are putting your opinion here above all denominational views.   

You resort to my interpretation is better than yours.   

Ok if someone tells you that even though you are saved you're still going to hell if you do not live a holy life, even though there are a lot of denominations who believe that and have passed that view down through successive generations

Should I just accept that above what the bible says?  ::shrug::

What you call my opinion is what I call reiterating what the bible says instead of blindly accepting what religious tradition says

The Roman Catholic Church taught a certain view, Martin Luther was a monk who was trained and taught to accept the churches viewpoint

But when he saw that their viewpoint contradicted the Bible he could no longer accept what they said...right?

Was his decision based on merely his opinion or on what the bible says?  ::shrug::

I'm just pointing out to you that Phil 2:12 doesn't mean what bible have traditionally interpreted it to mean, whats more the very next verse, Phil 2:13 proves it!


Yet people always try to say Phil 2:12 means you can't be sure you are saved, you need to be scared, you need to be unsure because you won't know until you die if you made it or not

I submit

The only people who don't know they are saved until they die are the ones who do not read the bible for themselves and DON'T KNOW the Promises of God or the Covenant God has made with them through Jesus


Offline trifecta

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 17:57:59 »
gospel,

Thank you for engaging with me.  

Ok if someone tells you that even though you are saved you're still going to hell if you do not live a holy life, even though there are a lot of denominations who believe that and have passed that view down through successive generations


Well, you have a point in that not all traditions are good.   We can say the same thing about religions.   I tried Buddhism (not really) is it was no good. Therefore, all religious traditions are bad.  No, there has got to be a correct tradition.

Quote
Should I just accept that above what the bible says?  ::shrug::


Due respect, I doubt you picked up a Bible can came to this on your own.  You too are following a tradition, albiet a newer one.

But even if you did, the Bible says the truth is found in the church (I Tim 3:15).  The Bible itself says you should look there.

Quote

What you call my opinion is what I call reiterating what the bible says instead of blindly accepting what religious tradition says


Because the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth  (I Tim 3:15).  So, why would you reject all Christian traditions?

Quote

The Roman Catholic Church taught a certain view, Martin Luther was a monk who was trained and taught to accept the churches viewpoint

But when he saw that their viewpoint contradicted the Bible he could no longer accept what they said...right?

Was his decision based on merely his opinion or on what the bible says?  ::shrug::


Luther is a strange case.  His 94(?) theses are about the church's practices (induligences), not her beliefs.   Later, Luther says
their beliefs strayed from the early church.  Luther was trying to get back to the beliefs of the early church.  But, in doing so,
creates the five solas and other questionable beliefs, which the early church did not endorse.

The point being Luther was not basing his beliefs solely from the Bible.  In fact, he was very willing to diss the Bible (esp. Epistle of James)
when it did not support his beliefs.

Quote

I'm just pointing out to you that Phil 2:12 doesn't mean what bible have traditionally interpreted it to mean, whats more the very next verse, Phil 2:13 proves it!


I already addressed Phil 2:13.  But do you really think that the traditional interpretation of this (or any) verse is totally off-base?  The church has been wrong for 2000 years and it takes an English-speaking modern to reveal its true meaning?

Quote
I submit

The only people who don't know they are saved until they die are the ones who do not read the bible for themselves and DON'T KNOW the Promises of God or the Covenant God has made with them through Jesus

This is a modern theological view. Thoughout history, many people couldn't even read, where does your view leave them?  Your view is in part based in the Bible, part not.  It is not the historic faith.  Why is the historic faith important?  Because it is what Jesus taught.  It is what the early church taught.  The church is the fulfillment of Jesus" promise.  

If you say, the churches I went to weren't like this.  My response is just as there are many world religions, there is only one true one.  Likewise, just because there are many Christian "denominations,"  there is only one true church.    

I can sympathize with your view. I once bought into a version of it myself.  So, thanks again for reading.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 18:08:03 by trifecta »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 27, 2011 - 20:21:29 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?

Webers_Home

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 10:58:56 »
.
†. John 3:14 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

That passage is one of the Lord's more serious statements that isn't getting enough press these days. He keyed the appreciation of his crucifixion to Num 21:5-9, where Yhvh's people became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their Lord and Master for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational, angrily demanding better food. In reply; The Lord sent a swarm of poisonous vipers among them; which began biting and killing people; and every bite was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people realized their mistake and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to fashion a metallic effigy of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to the effigy for relief.

Apply the elements of that event to Jesus' crucifixion and you'll have a pretty good idea of just how desperate things really are for mankind. A man's only chance of escaping the wrath of God is the crucifixion; there are no other God-given remedies : not church attendance, not. acraments, not love, not charity, not the Eucharist, not rosaries, not scapulars, not confession, not piety, not morality, not tithing, not commandments, not holy days of obligation, not fasting, not the golden rule, not the Sermon On the Mount, not self denial, not even one's own personal religious affiliation nor anything else one might associate with salvation will do, not even prayers, because until one believes in the Lord's crucifixion as their one and only chance to escape judgment, they are a dead man walking.

I was taught this too and believed it for many years, but it just ain't so.

My apologies for posting lies; and for misrepresenting the Bible's Christ

†. Pet 4:11 . . If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God

BTW : this is precisely why I avoid participating in bull sessions. God pity the poor seeking soul that stumbles onto this convoluted thread.

C.L.I.F.F.
|
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 11:21:15 by Webers_Home »

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 12:45:54 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?


I really have no idea of how what you are asking has anything to do with the thread

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 13:45:04 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?


I really have no idea of how what you are asking has anything to do with the thread


This thread was started to understand everyone's beliefs regarding the requisits for salvation. What a person has do if anything to be saved. You said that there is nothing we can do. There is no requisit to be filled. From before the establishment of space and time the saints were chosen not just to be saved: but to be the only ones called to be saved.

What I am asking then is concerning choice. Is it required that we choose God at least once? Is choice a requisit at all to you or is salvation an exclusive gift prepared for an exclusive elect drawn to it void of any choice?

I believe I am operating within the established parameters of the OP. I am asking you if there is a choice in your belief of requisits. Where does faith of the individual come into play if you believe it does at all? Its totally cool if you don't I'm just want to specify that as such.

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 14:10:22 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?


I really have no idea of how what you are asking has anything to do with the thread


This thread was started to understand everyone's beliefs regarding the requisits for salvation. What a person has do if anything to be saved. You said that there is nothing we can do. There is no requisit to be filled. From before the establishment of space and time the saints were chosen not just to be saved: but to be the only ones called to be saved.

What I am asking then is concerning choice. Is it required that we choose God at least once? Is choice a requisit at all to you or is salvation an exclusive gift prepared for an exclusive elect drawn to it void of any choice?

I believe I am operating within the established parameters of the OP. I am asking you if there is a choice in your belief of requisits. Where does faith of the individual come into play if you believe it does at all? Its totally cool if you don't I'm just want to specify that as such.

Ok

I am one who believes

1. Jesus is revealed as Christ by the Holy Spirit, if He is not revealed as Christ there is no choice

2. There is no way of causing or manufacturing one's heart to receive the revelation that only comes by God through the Holy Spirit

3. Hence I believe we are compelled to choose because of God opening our heart

4. This means we cannot take credit for faith or belief because both come from God

5. Jesus is not randomly going about finding just anyone, I believe the bible clearly shows He knows for whom He is looking, He calls each of us specifically by name


So i believe the choice we esteem so highly is not so much a choice but something we are compelled to do in that upon The Revelation of Jesus as Christ, it is impossible to resist confessing Him as Lord and Savior


Only those who do not know Him as The Christ, The Son of the Living God can CHOOSE not to confess Him as Lord

Obviously this all adds up to the fact that I believe in predestination, some people are God's He knows who are His, because He knows the ending and who are there and who are not.

Consequently God knows who is looking forward and who to call and does so by name

Hopefully that answers your OP

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 14:29:21 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?


I really have no idea of how what you are asking has anything to do with the thread


This thread was started to understand everyone's beliefs regarding the requisits for salvation. What a person has do if anything to be saved. You said that there is nothing we can do. There is no requisit to be filled. From before the establishment of space and time the saints were chosen not just to be saved: but to be the only ones called to be saved.

What I am asking then is concerning choice. Is it required that we choose God at least once? Is choice a requisit at all to you or is salvation an exclusive gift prepared for an exclusive elect drawn to it void of any choice?

I believe I am operating within the established parameters of the OP. I am asking you if there is a choice in your belief of requisits. Where does faith of the individual come into play if you believe it does at all? Its totally cool if you don't I'm just want to specify that as such.

Ok

I am one who believes

1. Jesus is revealed as Christ by the Holy Spirit, if He is not revealed as Christ there is no choice

2. There is no way of causing or manufacturing one's heart to receive the revelation that only comes by God through the Holy Spirit

3. Hence I believe we are compelled to choose because of God opening our heart

4. This means we cannot take credit for faith or belief because both come from God

5. Jesus is not randomly going about finding just anyone, I believe the bible clearly shows He knows for whom He is looking, He calls each of us specifically by name


So i believe the choice we esteem so highly is not so much a choice but something we are compelled to do in that upon The Revelation of Jesus as Christ, it is impossible to resist confessing Him as Lord and Savior


Only those who do not know Him as The Christ, The Son of the Living God can CHOOSE not to confess Him as Lord

Obviously this all adds up to the fact that I believe in predestination, some people are God's He knows who are His, because He knows the ending and who are there and who are not.

Consequently God knows who is looking forward and who to call and does so by name

Hopefully that answers your OP


Thank you.

Indulge me for just a little while longer. I sense a little frustration but my cause is genuine understanding I promise.

So there is really no choice no faith just the overwhelming compelling to follow God stemming from God. Christ is not drawing all men just a select few. Those who are redeemed aren't redeemed because they choose to believe by their own will. They are dominated by divine overshadowing to the point of submission.

There is no choice. There is no faith. We really don't do anything. God simply points and says, "You are saved and you are damned." Then the dominoes fall into place.


Is that about right Brother?

Offline gospel

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 16:12:57 »
Hey gospel,

So does salvation start with faith in your opinion? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just curious. If the saints were predetermined from the before the beginning. If God draws only those select few to Him and no one can come to Him unless He draws them. If the saints have, are and always will be the saints.

If all that is so where does faith come into play here? I'm just assuming that you meant faith as a necessity and I missed where you described so. I'm not mandating any requisit just wondering what people hold to.

Don't quite understand your question but I will say in regards to faith, the key thing for us to remember it is not so much OUR faith that matters, for that is where we get off into a lot of goofiness and silly things that make faith teaching seem a little wacky.

It is our faith in and toward Jesus as directed and dependent upon Jesus.

You might ask what is the difference?

To which I will say...it is one thing to say I have faith, I have so much faith, I can do all things, I can move mountains etc, etc

And an entirely different thing to say I trust Jesus, Jesus will do it, Jesus will answer my prayers, Jesus will heal me

The 1st example is like having faith in our faith, its like having faith in our ability to have faith, a form of idolatry

The 2nd example is faith directed towards God, faith that Jesus can do whatever we need Him to do

Faith is a good opinion of God, it means you trust God, you rely upon God, you depend upon God and you have no doubt that His promises are true and He will do all that He said He will do

The same way we trust some people. There are some people whom when they say something we can take it to the bank. When they say they will be somewhere at a certain time and they will do such and such on a certain day, you have no doubt that they will honor their word, so much so that you begin to make plans based on what they have told you.....

Point is...You Faith is directed Toward them, it is not directed toward YOUR ability to believe them but rather toward them because of who they are, who they have proven themselves to be, their demonstrated ability to keep and honor their word...so you faith is based upon the strength of their CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY

People came to Jesus knowing He could heal them, knowing He could meet their needs, not because they had faith in their faith but because they believed Jesus was whom He said He was and Jesus could do whatever He said He could do and they KNEW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THEY KNEW HE could meet their needs!

The rich ruler came asking what must I do?

In the presence of Jesus, the one who can answer every need and do all things, the question was wrong.

The question is what will you do?

That was the question Jesus answered "prophetically" concerning His own Purpose

He became poor to make the poor rich,

Jesus used this situation to give another lesson regarding His message of Redemption

 ::reading::

 


Apologies let me present my inquiry more clearly.

Is there any room for choice in your requisits? I'm not talking about influence. Although I don't agree, I understand that you believe God only draws a select towards Him. I tend to trust Christ when He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." However I am not intending to debate your belief rather gain a better understanding of it. Where does the choice of the believer play into all this?


I really have no idea of how what you are asking has anything to do with the thread


This thread was started to understand everyone's beliefs regarding the requisits for salvation. What a person has do if anything to be saved. You said that there is nothing we can do. There is no requisit to be filled. From before the establishment of space and time the saints were chosen not just to be saved: but to be the only ones called to be saved.

What I am asking then is concerning choice. Is it required that we choose God at least once? Is choice a requisit at all to you or is salvation an exclusive gift prepared for an exclusive elect drawn to it void of any choice?

I believe I am operating within the established parameters of the OP. I am asking you if there is a choice in your belief of requisits. Where does faith of the individual come into play if you believe it does at all? Its totally cool if you don't I'm just want to specify that as such.

Ok

I am one who believes

1. Jesus is revealed as Christ by the Holy Spirit, if He is not revealed as Christ there is no choice

2. There is no way of causing or manufacturing one's heart to receive the revelation that only comes by God through the Holy Spirit

3. Hence I believe we are compelled to choose because of God opening our heart

4. This means we cannot take credit for faith or belief because both come from God

5. Jesus is not randomly going about finding just anyone, I believe the bible clearly shows He knows for whom He is looking, He calls each of us specifically by name


So i believe the choice we esteem so highly is not so much a choice but something we are compelled to do in that upon The Revelation of Jesus as Christ, it is impossible to resist confessing Him as Lord and Savior


Only those who do not know Him as The Christ, The Son of the Living God can CHOOSE not to confess Him as Lord

Obviously this all adds up to the fact that I believe in predestination, some people are God's He knows who are His, because He knows the ending and who are there and who are not.

Consequently God knows who is looking forward and who to call and does so by name

Hopefully that answers your OP


Thank you.

Indulge me for just a little while longer. I sense a little frustration but my cause is genuine understanding I promise.

So there is really no choice no faith just the overwhelming compelling to follow God stemming from God. Christ is not drawing all men just a select few. Those who are redeemed aren't redeemed because they choose to believe by their own will. They are dominated by divine overshadowing to the point of submission.

There is no choice. There is no faith. We really don't do anything. God simply points and says, "You are saved and you are damned." Then the dominoes fall into place.


Is that about right Brother?

Basically what you call choosing I call answering

The deeper question is does God call everyone and if so does everyone hear Him

and If everyone hears Him, why do only some answer?

Surely the message is available for everyone

But everyone does not receive the message do they?

I say they do not because neither their eyes nor their hearts have been opened to SEE Jesus is The Christ the Son of the Living God

Case in point

Saul of Tarsus did not see, despite his rich understanding of scripture and Jewish theology, Saul of Tarsus though he was doing God a favor persecuting Christians, he was actually persecuting Jesus at least that's what Jesus said


He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 16:44:04 »
I do see what you mean. Forgive me as I am unable to reconcile your belief. Its of little consequence. Your beliefs are your own and God's wills it so. Thank you for sharing with me.

One more question. What do you make of Christ saying, "That if I'd been lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me."

I'm sorry I'm doing this from my blackberry and am unable to properly cite the verse in its proper context. In any event I would like to hear your opinion.

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 17:57:20 »
I do see what you mean. Forgive me as I am unable to reconcile your belief. Its of little consequence. Your beliefs are your own and God's wills it so. Thank you for sharing with me.

One more question. What do you make of Christ saying, "That if I'd been lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me."

I'm sorry I'm doing this from my blackberry and am unable to properly cite the verse in its proper context. In any event I would like to hear your opinion.

Unless you are a Universalist, I'm sure it's obvious to you He didn't "literally" mean all men as in every single man, woman and child

If the sheep are being separated from the goats, the wheat from the tare then obviously some will not make it

Since we can't know who will answer and who will not, it is not our place and neither will we ever know who  will be drawn and who will not but clearly all does not mean every




I think all men means all men that belong to Him

 

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 18:14:25 »
Hahaha. No I'm not a universalist. I laugh because I can see why you say that not to mock you.

I always took it that God calls all men to discipleship in contrast to your idea of Him only calling a select few. Of course that doesn't mandate or imply in the slightest that all are saved merely that the invitation is extended to all.

Salvation is a gift for all intended for all but only given to those who accept it. That choice is what I call faith in God. Trusting in Him and living for Him daily and not when it is simply convenient. I believe salvation to be a living organism. Its given birth through faith and baptism by which we receive the Holy Ghost and it sustains that new life by steady submission to the Holy Ghost.

You can remove yourself from the Source just as you choose to be renewed in it in the first place. God's gift is perfect and it gives everlasting life without flaw. The only flawed variable is man. 

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 18:35:02 »

I read somewhere that a Holy day of obligation is a part of it. Of course I have a Dictionary that has probably been changed by binding and loosing, or written by less than honorable people.
 ::eatingpopcorn:

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 18:50:04 »
Hahaha. No I'm not a universalist. I laugh because I can see why you say that not to mock you.

I always took it that God calls all men to discipleship in contrast to your idea of Him only calling a select few. Of course that doesn't mandate or imply in the slightest that all are saved merely that the invitation is extended to all.

Salvation is a gift for all intended for all but only given to those who accept it. That choice is what I call faith in God. Trusting in Him and living for Him daily and not when it is simply convenient. I believe salvation to be a living organism. Its given birth through faith and baptism by which we receive the Holy Ghost and it sustains that new life by steady submission to the Holy Ghost.

You can remove yourself from the Source just as you choose to be renewed in it in the first place. God's gift is perfect and it gives everlasting life without flaw. The only flawed variable is man.  

The process is birth

In this case re-Birth

Re-Birth does not and cannot occur unless someone has a revelation of Christ

Once someone does, they accept the call

Once they accept the call there is no process for being unborn

Not in the natural, not in the spiritual

Once God becomes your Father ....He will always be your Father

The fact that you go off as a wayward son doesn't change the fact you have a Father

All you have to do is go home ::shrug::


Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 18:53:00 »
Larry2,

Peace be with you. I have already corrected you once about Catholic doctrine. If through ignorance of true Church doctrine, tradition of men over true Catholic teaching and unwillingness to better the community Christ founded and choosing to leave, you wish to separate yourself from the true faith then by all means God protect you.

However just as I have never misrepresented any protestant belief, I demand the same courtesy be extended to the Apostolic Faith of true Christianity. It is only honorable.

If you disagree that is one thing it is another thing all together to propagate that we believe something we don't or that our beliefs have changed when all of history proves that in all things that Catholic Faith is as stubborn as a rock.

larry2

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 19:20:34 »
Larry2,

Peace be with you. I have already corrected you once about Catholic doctrine. If through ignorance of true Church doctrine, tradition of men over true Catholic teaching and unwillingness to better the community Christ founded and choosing to leave, you wish to separate yourself from the true faith then by all means God protect you.

However just as I have never misrepresented any protestant belief, I demand the same courtesy be extended to the Apostolic Faith of true Christianity. It is only honorable.

If you disagree that is one thing it is another thing all together to propagate that we believe something we don't or that our beliefs have changed when all of history proves that in all things that Catholic Faith is as stubborn as a rock.


Are you saying that not observing a holy day of obligation is not a mortal sin now, thus no longer making it a part of salvation? Are you in fact calling the Catholic press wrong? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying altogether. Peace with you too. I in fact have seen every additional doctrine tossed in by many that attempt to take from Christ what He purchased for us on the cross.

Misrepresenting? Copying word for word something the Catholic press releases is not in my thinking misrepresenting them. Not keeping up with their changes may be called negligent though.

Correcting me? All you did was make excuses for something I have in print from the Catholic press you don't seem to agree with.
 ::frown::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 19:23:57 »
Gospel,

Your beliefs are dully noted and respected as treasured to you and your following. I will say no more in opposition to them.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 19:38:37 »
Larry2,

But it says "place or state" clearly its not describing a realm of existence like Heaven or Hell and a process of untold length. I think your bias is trying to put make this more than it obviously is.

larry2

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 19:41:37 »

However just as I have never misrepresented any protestant belief, I demand the same courtesy be extended to the Apostolic Faith of true Christianity. It is only honorable.


You're in fact seem to be misrepresenting your reason for asking "Teacher What Must I do to be saved?" on this board. You stated in another thread quoted below.

Quote from: LightHammer Re: Prayer to Mary? « Reply #234 on: January 26, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »

I have just started two new topics that concern to very core beliefs pertaining the characteristics of Christianity. I would like for you all to merely observe the debates and hopefully if people actually bite (apparently I don't attract people like some of the other posters.lol) you will see why the Truth could have never been left in the hands of a fallible organization of fallible men relying soley of Sacred Scripture.

It is my belief that this "experiment", for lack of a better vocabulary, will prove the need and validity of the established Church and its infallible revelations.


Oh my.  ::headscratch::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 19:51:34 »
How is that misrepresentation???

In order to make a point, which you all are doing quite beautifully in fact, I needed a clear presentation of understanding of contradicting beliefs on the core beliefs of Christianity. The very salvation truths needed to be shown as how they have been compromised among protestantism to valdate the need for the Apostolic leader. I don't see how that's misrepresentation but ok?lol 

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 20:00:59 »
In any event I have proven all I need to. Sola Scriptura was always the product of man made ideology and never God's design for His people. Here in this thread and in the other sincere Christians armed with Scripture alone can not realize the Truths of God. It is crucial that the path be laid straight and clear for the world and in protestantism the path varies from the contradicting points of view of the individual.

My belief is validated.

Just as there is One Universal Infallible Truth stemming from the One Universal Infallible God, there is the One Universal Infallible Church preordained to give that Truth to the world.

It started with Christ entrusted to His Twelve and preserved in their Successors.

God Bless You All

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Re: Teacher What Must I do to be saved?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jan 28, 2011 - 20:01:33 »

Larry2,

But it says "place or state" clearly its not describing a realm of existence like Heaven or Hell and a process of untold length. I think your bias is trying to put make this more than it obviously is.


Did your dictionary in fact say the same thing: "Place or state?" The problem I have fallible organizations dictating their application of the necessities needed to go to heaven is that they're built on men's thinking.

Such a similar place was Abraham's bosom, though the righteous was comforted; not subject to suffering as the rich man was. A place for suffering? Well I would think as another brother put it that in the sense these person's bodies were in the grave, and probably rotted away they were not physically in a place, but nevertheless just as those righteous departed today are in paradise, I think you can call it a place. There was an old song, "Heaven is Just a Stone's Throw Away." Where is it?