Author Topic: That insidious wedding ring analogy.  (Read 573 times)

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Offline e.r.m.

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That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 23:03:09 »
The wedding ring analogy goes like this

"If I take off my wedding ring, does that mean I'm not married? No of course not. It is only a symbol to show the rest of the world that I am married. But having the ring on my finger or not does not make me married or unmarried. In the same way, baptism is meant as a symbol to show the rest of the world that you're saved. And like the wedding ring, it does not make you saved or unsaved."

In the movie Men of Honor, a horribly racist man made an equally horribly racist analogy against black people. One can make an analogy that effectively conveys the idea one is trying to get across, but any analogy is only as good as the truth behind it. If the idea on which the analogy is based is not true, then the analogy itself is worthless, and revolting in the case of that character in the movie.

In the case of the wedding ring analogy, the idea that baptism in Jesus's name is meant only as a token to show the rest of the world one is saved, is unfounded and not found in scripture and so the wedding ring analogy, used to illustrate this idea, is worthless.

My question is this. I have seen this analogy seem so wonderful to people that it replaces scriptural authority & becomes the authority unto itself that people use to confirm said belief. I'm wondering how this analogy gets so much power. In my experience, when people hear this analogy (always presented without scripture), they do not ask and "seem to" forget all scripture says about verifying things like the Bereans did. I once read someone say that he had used the analogy, but because so & so teacher said it, that confirmed it for him and he was so excited. What about hearing this analogy leads people to "seem to" trust the person telling the analogy so much that they forget all about scripture? Has this been your experience?

Your thoughts are appreciated. Thank you.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 07:52:12 by e.r.m. »

Offline 4WD

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 04:00:19 »
I'm wondering how this analogy gets so much power.
It gets so much power because it appears to provide the desired answer against baptism as actually presented in the Bible.  That is the problem with most analogies; they are  valid if and only if they are analogues of truths.

Offline Jaime

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 04:56:03 »
If God doesn’t do anything in baptism, the analogy seems to work and NEEDS to Work for many. But of course WHAT God DOES DO in baptism is where the analogy fails. Some are more than happy to strip what God does in baptism completely out. It’s like saying Moses parted the Red Sea by raising his staff. No, God parted the Red Sea, and Moses was along for the ride in obedience to God’s command. Moses obeyed God yes, but accomplished none of the deliverance. Man obeys and submits passively to What God commands and God does the work that is accomplished in baptism. In 2 Kings 5:1-16, Naaman didn’t heal himself, nor did the water of the Jordan, nor did the number of times he dipped heal him, but God alone did in the manner and the medium he commanded. Sorry TC, Naaman is such a pertinent example, NOT because water was involved, but how important God  considered obedience in the manner he commands regardless of our opinion of God’s requirements.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 05:23:08 by Jaime »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 04:56:03 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:26:07 »
4WD,
Quote
It gets so much power because it appears to provide the desired answer against baptism as actually presented in the Bible.  That is the problem with most analogies; they are  valid if and only if they are analogues of truths.
That is true, thank you. It could thus affect those already inclined to disbelieve baptism as actually presented in the Bible. But I believe there's another population that does not yet have such an inclination whom it still affects. I once attended a service were the preacher used the wedding ring analogy and it seemed just as effective with people hearing this for the first time. I believe there's also a component to this analogy that instructs people, "Forget about the Bible, believe instead what I tell you about baptism" since any alleged scriptural underpinning is never presented with the analogy. And the people follow this instruction. I believe it has to do as much with the presentation as it does with the audience. What do you think?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:10:10 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:26:07 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:26:43 »
My question is this. I have seen this analogy replace scriptural authority and become the authority unto itself that people use to confirm said belief. I'm wondering how this analogy gets so much power.
Because it fits with the western naturalistic mindset that rejects the mystical or supernatural. 

That there is a spiritual transaction at baptism, there is no doubt.  It is a burial of the now-dead old man.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


The cessationist naturalistic mindset that rejects the spiritual (beyond initial salvation) cannot comprehend a transaction taking place in the spiritual realm.  But the author of Hebrews reminds us:

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.


IOW, the spiritual unseen realm is MORE REAL than the physical universe we live in.

The wedding ring analogy side steps all of that.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:26:43 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:33:33 »
Dave,
Quote
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

IOW, the spiritual unseen realm is MORE REAL than the physical universe we live in.

The wedding ring analogy side steps all of that.
Good point.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:28:25 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:33:33 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #6 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:48:32 »
Jaime,
Quote
If God doesn’t do anything in baptism, the analogy seems to work and NEEDS to Work for many. But of course WHAT God DOES DO in baptism is where the analogy fails. Some are more than happy to strip what God does in baptism completely out. It’s like saying Moses parted the Red Sea by raising his staff. No, God parted the Red Sea, and Moses was along for the ride in obedience to God’s command. Moses obeyed God yes, but accomplished none of the deliverance. Man obeys and submits passively to What God commands and God does the work that is accomplished in baptism. In 2 Kings 5:1-16, Naaman didn’t heal himself, nor did the water of the Jordan, nor did the number of times he dipped heal him, but God alone did in the manner and the medium he commanded. Sorry TC, Naaman is such a pertinent example, NOT because water was involved, but how important God  considered obedience in the manner he commands regardless of our opinion of God’s requirements.
I agree, and as I said to 4WD, in addition to this analogy having a receptive audience, I believe there's also a something to the analogy that makes it effective with non-biased audiences as well. I believe there's a component to this analogy that prevents people from thinking about the Bible, since any alleged scriptural underpinning is never presented with the analogy, and directs the reliance of understanding upon the presenter. What do you think?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:40:45 by e.r.m. »

Offline 4WD

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #7 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:02:37 »
Because it fits with the western naturalistic mindset that rejects the mystical or supernatural. 
What is a western naturalistic mindset?  How is that different from an eastern naturalistic mindset?

Quote
The cessationist naturalistic mindset that rejects the spiritual (beyond initial salvation) cannot comprehend a transaction taking place in the spiritual realm.
And what is a cessationist naturalistic mindset?

Offline Jaime

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:34:05 »
Yes erm, i agree that the wedding ring analogy DOES people in a trance to rationalize not heeding what the Bible says about baptism. Instead of trying to reconcile ahat the totality of the Bible says about it, the wedding ring analogy in effect gives them license to ignore some important scriptures. Such as 1 Peter 3:21, wherebit says that baptism is not like washing dirt off the body, but it IS the calling upon the Lord. Which not so ironically Paul was commanded to be baptized calling upon the Lord by Ananias in Acts 22.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:38:14 by Jaime »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:34:05 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #9 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:36:35 »
The insidious parsing of faith from baptism.

The only mention of faith in this thread is from scriptures posted by Dave.  And that is sad.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #10 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:47:58 »
Texas Conservative,
Thank you for speaking of faith. If I was discussing baptism itself, then faith is definitely a part of that. The thread is primarily about the analogy, which also does not mention faith. As with the Bereans, that passage does not mention faith, but we know faith was in there. Similarly, like them, we want people to put their faith in what the scriptures say and not solely on presenter commentary.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:10:24 by e.r.m. »

Offline DaveW

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #11 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:20:49 »
What is a western naturalistic mindset?  How is that different from an eastern naturalistic mindset?
A mindset and world view that is based on Aristotelian (pagan) logic and scientific determination.  You have to be able to reproduce the effects in the lab. 

Eastern mindset is more open to the mystical and supernatural. 
Quote
And what is a cessationist naturalistic mindset?
That God does not do the miraculous today.  Everything is based on the laws of nature.

Offline DaveW

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #12 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:22:24 »
The insidious parsing of faith from baptism.
The only mention of faith in this thread is from scriptures posted by Dave.  And that is sad.
It is only by faith that we can apprehend the unseen spiritual world and get a glimpse of the transaction that happens in baptism. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #13 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:48:03 »
To me faith is a given with any discussion of salvation or any aspect of salvation. The discussion of baptism should never insinuate that it’s a substitute for faith in any way, and I don’t tbink it has. I DO definitely think baptism is a rudimentary and basic thing that SHOULD be universally understood, but of course it isn’t in reality, hence these discussions.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #14 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:12:35 »
True.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #15 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:17:12 »
To me faith is a given with any discussion of salvation or any aspect of salvation. The discussion of baptism should never insinuate that it’s a substitute for faith in any way, and I don’t tbink it has. I DO definitely think baptism is a rudimentary and basic thing that SHOULD be universally understood, but of course it isn’t in reality, hence these discussions.

The discussion of baptism without faith, is a terrible discussion.  Even 1 Peter 3 says that baptism is an appeal to God.  And we now that baptism is parsed from faith.  The 5 steps are a great example of this.

Offline Jaime

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #16 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:33:39 »
No one is promoting the 5 steps here. We want to promote proper scriptural understanding of the purpose of baptism, a FAITH response. If we don't understand the purpose of baptism as described in scripture, we will accomplish exactly the parsing from faith except from the opposite argument.

Surely with a preceding acknowledgment of Faith, a discussion of the purpose and/or mode of scriptural baptism could be accomplished by even semi-mature Christians.  ::shrug::

The purpose of baptism being a wedding ring type analogy accomplishes exactly what you want to avoid. And squelching the wedding ring analogy is a public service in Christian circles it seems to me.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:55:01 by Jaime »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #17 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:59:28 »
Agreed.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #18 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:08:37 »
Does anyone here who accepts the wedding ring analogy have any scripture that states baptism in Jesus's name is intended as a showcase to the rest of the world that one is already saved? Or is it all inferred and reliant upon commentary?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:21:33 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #19 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:11:44 »
Does anyone here who accepts the wedding ring analogy have any scriptures that say baptism in Jesus's name is intended as a showcase to the rest of the world that one is already saved?

Haven't heard the "wedding ring" analogy in my circles.  But I have heard the 5 steps in person and on this board in the past.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #20 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:12:42 »
Understood.
I have never advocated "the five steps". I'm a firm believer that whenever one tries to "package" something, they cause problems.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:50:17 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #21 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:00:07 »
The wedding ring ceremony is one of various versions of “baptism is only symbolic”. The old outward sign of an inward truth type thing. I contend Baptism is more than that and of course not devoid of faith, anymore than a discussion of repentance could be devoid of faith because without faith repenting is empty as baptism without faith is empty. I think it OK to stipulate that the five step approach means nothing when we are discussing  our faith response.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:25:03 by Jaime »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #22 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:17:37 »
Jaime
Agreed. The analogy is an extension of the symbolic purpose idea. And people like analogies and simplification. Chewing on this....

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #23 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:22:03 »
If baptism is deemed symbolic, one gets a pass, (one  thinks) concerning any serious scriptural study of baptism. Ie, “it’s symbolic, don’t ya know - next topic?” In my mind, it isn’t symbolic, God does something in baptism in Christ’s name and it’s pretty clear in scripture. And it isn’t at all devoid of faith in the scriptural context.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:24:18 by Jaime »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #24 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:24:20 »
Yes, but again, this only explains the people who are already inclined toward those beliefs. How does this analogy take hold of people who until that point had not been exposed to these beliefs?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:37:43 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #25 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:27:23 »
It takes a clear message of obedience and God doing something to it’s only symbolic, don’t sweat the details. Less onerous I suppose somehow. And they always push baptism is a work of man earning salvation, which it isn’t and doesn’t.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 13:29:45 by Jaime »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #26 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:00:48 »
Thank you. I know the ins-and-outs of their beliefs about baptism. I am thinking it's endemic to a culture that emphasizes the narrative over the scriptural scrutiny and full of sayings like
"It Is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."
With as much practice as they've had at drawing people in, such an analogy was likely. I suspect it's in the same vein of guiding people away from looking too closely at scriptures, and drawing them toward the narrative.

Granted, they don't need to become theologians to be saved. I've just seen first hand enough examples of deemphasizing the Bible to fairly say it's systemic.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:07:53 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #27 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:06:58 »
Similar to what planet does a Christian have to be from to be pro-choice on abortion?

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #28 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:08:45 »
What a pandora's box that is. And yes, I'm very pro-life.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:18:38 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:13:41 »
And if someone asked you why, I'm sure you would point to some very good scriptures, that a lot of people ignore or have rationalized away as with the wedding ring analogy on baptism.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:26:54 »
I'm sure I would.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 16:46:58 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:38:53 »
Would you share it?

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 15:15:33 »
-
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 15:42:46 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #33 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 08:21:05 »
Quote
The insidious parsing of faith from baptism.

The only mention of faith in this thread is from scriptures posted by Dave.  And that is sad.
Have you ever heard the concept of scriptural topic study?

In such we study what the scripture say about a topic which in this case is baptism. So the jest of the topic will be on what is baptism what happens in baptism why is baptism commanded and such topics and in searching the scriptures for this we find what God has said on subject and in so finding we find that it is not excluding faith but all about faith for with out faith baptism is nothing so even though the mention of faith is not stated it is given that one already know this to get to the point of discussing why baptism follows.

The debate on baptism is because some do not understand what the bible teaches on baptism not that baptism stands alone all that teach the biblical teaching on subject teach that faith must come first . What we defend is the wrong teaching that it is  not part of salvation that is something different that what Acts 2:38 says it is which is backed by Romans 6 but many various false teaching occurs on the topic of baptism that we debate not faith we all agree one must have faith to be saved.

Quote
The discussion of baptism without faith, is a terrible discussion.  Even 1 Peter 3 says that baptism is an appeal to God.  And we now that baptism is parsed from faith.  The 5 steps are a great example of this.

Yes as I said on  can not discuss baptism scriptural with out teaching it  is a faith response. Faith is a given there is no need to repeat it when trying to correct the mis-teaching of some on the topic of baptism like it is not of water but a dry baptism it is not for the remission of sin and such claims from some so when studying what the bible says is called a topical study meaning we are discussing the topic of baptism  what the bible say about baptism

The 5 steps are just a label to distract from the fact that the bible does not teach faith alone it is not something I will defend or accept it is just a decoy I chose not to deal with.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #34 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 17:44:21 »
"In the same way, baptism is meant as a symbol to show the rest of the world that you're saved."

There's another piece to this analogy. To begin with, it would be expected of anyone seeking God's will to be sure any major given teaching or practice is scriptural, like
"thank you for the analogy, now what is the scriptural basis for baptism in Jesus's name being meant as a symbol to show the rest of the world that were saved?"

To be responsible, we hopefully don't just take somebody's word for it and at least check the Bible to see if it's true. But there's also an assumption made in this analogy that I never hear asked about either.
It is assumed, not stated, that a newly saved person is also expected to hold an event to symbolize or to show the rest of the world that we are saved or what Christ has done for us.
So, in addition to walking as Jesus did 1John 2:6, in addition to preaching the gospel Mark 16:15, in addition to not to disowning but rather confessing Jesus before men Matthew 10:32-33, this analogy now also expects a newly saved person to do something to symbolize or announce to the world that they have been saved. The question deserves to be asked "Does the New Testament expect a just born child of God to hold an event after being saved to let the whole world know, and if so, where is such an expectation written?"

I have never heard this topic addressed by those who verbalize the wedding ring analogy. Nor have I ever heard someone ask about it. Due to the way the analogy is phrased, this expectation is just accepted.

To me, it seems like by design. They don't say, "you are expected to hold an event letting the world know you are saved, and baptism in Jesus's name is that event".
They skip that first part and speak as though it is assumed (without establishing it), "baptism in Jesus's name IS THE event assigned to show the rest of the world that you're saved." It's a great way to get around having to address a non-existent expectation.

It is indicative of a culture that deemphasizes scripture and emphasizes the narrative and reliance on the deliverers of that narrative.

Your thoughts are appreciated.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 18:08:23 by e.r.m. »

 

     
anything