Author Topic: That insidious wedding ring analogy.  (Read 550 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #35 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:03:04 »
Have you ever heard the concept of scriptural topic study?

In such we study what the scripture say about a topic which in this case is baptism. So the jest of the topic will be on what is baptism what happens in baptism why is baptism commanded and such topics and in searching the scriptures for this we find what God has said on subject and in so finding we find that it is not excluding faith but all about faith for with out faith baptism is nothing so even though the mention of faith is not stated it is given that one already know this to get to the point of discussing why baptism follows.

The debate on baptism is because some do not understand what the bible teaches on baptism not that baptism stands alone all that teach the biblical teaching on subject teach that faith must come first . What we defend is the wrong teaching that it is  not part of salvation that is something different that what Acts 2:38 says it is which is backed by Romans 6 but many various false teaching occurs on the topic of baptism that we debate not faith we all agree one must have faith to be saved.

Yes as I said on  can not discuss baptism scriptural with out teaching it  is a faith response. Faith is a given there is no need to repeat it when trying to correct the mis-teaching of some on the topic of baptism like it is not of water but a dry baptism it is not for the remission of sin and such claims from some so when studying what the bible says is called a topical study meaning we are discussing the topic of baptism  what the bible say about baptism

The 5 steps are just a label to distract from the fact that the bible does not teach faith alone it is not something I will defend or accept it is just a decoy I chose not to deal with.

No one mentioned "faith alone."  I don't believe in "faith alone."  I think packaging salvation in a convenient package like "The Sinner's Prayer" or "The Five Steps" is bad.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #36 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:05:47 »
It is indicative of a culture that deemphasizes scripture and emphasizes the narrative and reliance on the deliverers of that narrative.

Very easy to think that, but I don't think that is very astute.   Groups that have a high view of scripture still have a problem looking at scripture without rose colored glasses, including yours.  Mine does as well. 

When you are taught something for a long time, even if what you are taught is not entirely correct, it is difficult to see scripture in a fresh manner and get over what you have been taught.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #37 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:27:44 »
Texas Conservative,
Quote
No one mentioned "faith alone."  I don't believe in "faith alone."  I think packaging salvation in a convenient package like "The Sinner's Prayer" or "The Five Steps" is bad.
I wholeheartedly agree.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #37 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:27:44 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #38 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:30:41 »
Texas Conservative,
Quote
Very easy to think that, but I don't think that is very astute.   Groups that have a high view of scripture still have a problem looking at scripture without rose colored glasses, including yours.  Mine does as well.

When you are taught something for a long time, even if what you are taught is not entirely correct, it is difficult to see scripture in a fresh manner and get over what you have been taught.
Thank you for sharing. Good points. I will chew on this and get back to you.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #38 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 19:30:41 »
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Offline DaveW

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 27, 2021 - 05:01:48 »
If baptism is deemed symbolic, one gets a pass, (one  thinks) concerning any serious scriptural study of baptism. Ie, “it’s symbolic, don’t ya know - next topic?”
Well said Jaime.  And if baptism is merely symbolic - has no REAL spiritual value to us - how many other things become merely symbolic as  well? 
Prayers for healing?
For other people's salvation?
Communion? 
Prayers for strength and guidance during times of testing and temptation?

Are we Christians or deists?

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 27, 2021 - 05:01:48 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #40 on: Wed Sep 29, 2021 - 09:11:55 »
Texas Conservative,
Quote
Very easy to think that, but I don't think that is very astute. Groups that have a high view of scripture still have a problem looking at scripture without rose colored glasses, including yours. Mine does as well.

When you are taught something for a long time, even if what you are taught is not entirely correct, it is difficult to see scripture in a fresh manner and get over what you have been taught.
From the moment I read this post, I immediately agreed that I am not immune to bias and am still vulnerable, even 38 years later. And in my statement I did not state, but I hope it was understood, that I believe the belief system I adressed deemphasizes scripture and emphasizes the narrative and its deliverers only on certain topics.
Your post strikes at the heart of how we can tell the difference between truth and false tradition. Are we all deluded, following only what we've become accustomed to, all pointing fingers at each other like the blind trying to lead the blind, having no way of being able to figure out the correct path? Or are there actually sign posts that can guide us to what the first century Bible writers were communicating? In which case, if seekers so choose, they can just find their way through the melee of competing ideas, toward the truth? There are some truths of course not as easily discerned as others, but if there are sign posts, we at least have a way to get there.

I believe there are. Otherwise, God wouldn't have said things like

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage---with great patience and careful instruction. [3] For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [4] They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

When Paul taught the gospel to the Jews, the New Testament said things like
Acts 18:28 For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 17:2-3 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, [3] explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

And Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to defeat Satan's attempt at twisting them.

I believe that focusing on the scriptures, including the New Testament, which was only being written at that time, can help us find our way. I am not saying ONLY scripture. Yes, prayer and listening to the Spirit, all the above. I do see a difference in how different belief systems approach the scriptures, namely how closely each belief system sticks to them on certain topics. If we are taught to stay close to them, our abilities to discern and decipher increase. Mike Winger on Youtube, is an interesting person on this topic. In an excellent video he made against this new Passion Translation and its author, he picked out a particular passage where the author had added to the original text. Excellent, excellent exegesis or hermeneutics, whatever you call it. He did an earlier video, a very amicable debate on baptism, where he did not use that level of scrutiny in his description of Acts 2:38, he himself added to what the passage said. I was disappointed that he had the ability, but did not use it equitably. He did not say about Acts 2:38 "the text says ..." like he had in that other video, he cut out part of that passage and filled in the gap with his own stuff.
Even if that was a rose-colored glass situation and it was hard for him to see the truth because of what he had been taught for many many years, he still had the tools to get through and didn't use them.

I believe at least one major issue towards taking off those rose colored glasses, is the standard we use to evaluate and teach scripture. The scripture teaches a standard, such as in John 12:47-50.

You said "Groups that have a high view of scripture still have a problem looking at scripture without rose colored glasses, including yours.  Mine does as well."   I don't think groups who have a high view of scripture in any given area will remain stuck there. I don't believe the wedding ring analogy is just something, not entirely correct being taught for a long time, but more of a systemic issue of a low view of scripture. I have been told numerous time by people on this subject matter that despite the Bible, they believe that God..... Our view of God, like with David, should come from His teachings. There is a system going on to deemphasize reliance upon scripture. I don't believe the wedding ring analogy is just an incorrect teaching in and of itself, I believe it's a tool/method that deemphasizes scripture. However unintentional it may be.

I've edited this a lot to cut down rambling, and may keep doing it.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 29, 2021 - 11:49:29 by e.r.m. »

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Re: That insidious wedding ring analogy.
« Reply #40 on: Wed Sep 29, 2021 - 09:11:55 »

 

     
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