Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Reformer on Sun Sep 12, 2021 - 20:36:37

Title: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Sun Sep 12, 2021 - 20:36:37
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________________
 
“That They May All Be One”

[Unity In Diversity Or Conformity?]

“The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be united even as we are united.”—Jesus, John 17:20-22.
 
     The early Christian believers had their differences, yet were united overall. It is my sentiment the only unity possible among believers is unity in diversity. Even apostles Paul and Peter were united, although they had an occasional difference. Paul took issue with the apostle Peter, and stated, “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to the face, because he was clearly in the wrong” [Gal. 2:11]. Peter had discriminated against the Gentile believers.
 
    Romans, chapter 14, is an excellent reading on unity in diversity, for it portrays the weak vs. the strong. In our current Christian culture, we find some who are weak in the faith, doctrinally and behaviorally, while others are mature in the faith. Paul told the strong and more knowledgeable believers in the faith, “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own Lord that he stands or falls” [verses 1-4].
 
    Paul says in another place that believers are to live “in harmony with one another” and “welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you” [15:5-7]. My point is that harmony and unity can and should prevail even when diverse and miscellaneous views are prevalent.
 
    We have no biblical right to contend that all doctrinal conceptions and/or theories of others conform to ours—or that our sundry doctrinal conceptions be adopted by others. Our Lord was a strong advocator of unity, as depicted in the passages above. But in our current religious culture, disunity is the byword. Sad—yes, sad indeed.
 
    However, should I insist you adopt my assorted doctrinal conceptions, I have, at that point, become divisive. Paul says to “avoid foolish controversies” and if a brother “stirs up division,” becomes divisive, “warm him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned” [Titus 3:9-11]
 
    Unity in conformity is not the solution to our divided dilemma. However, as a means of clarification, a divisive brother may be excommunicated or withdrawn from—as per Paul in the Titus admonition above. A divisive brother fosters disunity and advocates disharmony in the body of believers. 
 
    Closing NoteAn honest and upright believer who acknowledges God as his only creator and His Son as his only source of salvation, but embraces some questionable beliefs, is to be accepted as part of the one body of believers. If we try to deny him brotherly acceptance, we will have placed ourselves in an identical predicament because we, too, possess some questionable beliefs!
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: johntwayne on Sun Sep 12, 2021 - 21:59:39
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.  (1Co 1:10)
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Sun Sep 12, 2021 - 22:47:52

An excellent passage of scripture, johntwayne. Thank you.

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 05:00:52
The oneness of all believers is when THEY ( The church ) SHOW UP  to be with THEM  ( Father , Son , Holy Spirit) in  the spirit, IN HIS HEAVEN ...HIS HOLY PLACE.

I NEVER KNEW YOU .....DEPART FROM MY PRESENCE.

The SAME PLACE . Jesus taught , SHOWED . the disciples on earth HOW TO GO ...how to go there. How to ascend the hill of the Lord


It’s not on earth,  but in heaven we are made one..... one in him ....in them .

out side of him we will fight like cats and dogs. Smile at each other and say hello


Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 05:11:36
You have to understand how amazing his love is towards us.....


He is inviting us into HIS HOLY SPACE to be with him

That’s a special place . I have no words to describe it. He’s letting us in to his sanctuary. Into him , himself. His garden His heart
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: DaveW on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 06:31:05
Buff, which Hebrew/Aramaic word do you think our Lord used in his John 17 prayer - echad or yachad

I believe it is echad, which is the same unity/oneness of the godhead:

Deut 6.4
Hear O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.  [echad]

Echad is also used in Genesis where it says that husband and wife are one [echad] flesh.  So it is clearly NOT an absolute singularity.  That would be yachad.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 07:49:55
Reformer and johntwayne,

What is asked of one seeking baptism?  Division appears to come from moving the goal posts.

Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 15:06:57
DaveW:

    "Buff, which Hebrew/Aramaic word do you think our Lord used in his John 17 prayer - 'echad' or 'yachad'? I believe it is 'echad,' which is the same unity/oneness of the godhead.

    "Deut 6.4: 'Hear O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one' [echad]. 'Echad' is also used in Genesis where it says that husband and wife are one ['echad'] flesh. So it is clearly NOT an absolute singularity. That would be 'yachad.' "


    The Lord seemed to have used echâd, which pertains to unity or divine harmony. John 17:21 is a prayer for the unity of the saints, believers. The Lord had shown that the union between Himself and His Father should also be the same unification between believers. Unity between believers, as you noted, is not an "absolute singularity," but an association blended with harmony between those of the same cause.

    We can and do disagree on a diversity of incidental matters but still be united. Paul and Peter disagreed, yet they were united in the same cause—faith. We all must be united by faith, the writer of Hebrews says [Heb. 4:2].

Kindly,

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 15:12:37

Mere Nick:

    I'm not certain what you mean by your question, "What is asked of one seeking baptism?" Please clarify it for me.

Thanks,

Buff

Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Wed Sep 15, 2021 - 19:51:22

Bemark:

    "It’s not on earth [unity], but in heaven we are made one.....one in him....in them. Out side of him we will fight like cats and dogs. Smile at each other and say hello."

    My brother, if we cannot achieve unity on earth, Jesus' prayer in John 17 is meaningless and His plea is useless. I cannot buy that.

But Thanks, Anyway,

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 02:22:14
Bemark:

    "It’s not on earth [unity], but in heaven we are made one.....one in him....in them. Out side of him we will fight like cats and dogs. Smile at each other and say hello."

    My brother, if we cannot achieve unity on earth, Jesus' prayer in John 17 is meaningless and His plea is useless. I cannot buy that.

But Thanks, Anyway,

Buff

well we shall be known for the love for one another. It’s his word right......that we have not seen and struggle with trying to manufacture in the flesh....with good sermons and acts of kindness . So not even really caring ....as it’s a duty. I get the badge, passed that test. Never really in us....sum have a gift of kindness , a Shepard’s heart. Not speaking against you. Just saying the truth that abides even within myself. Not the Love of God for all mankind.I pull back by what,  who I see

There will be a day when he becomes more than we are. There are sum who can and do meet with him in the spirit. In this place where he is king of heaven , you bow to his will. You repent , you bow because of HIS GLORY....Your hatred and thoughts are open , you can’t hide from him. He passes through you.....can you pass though him? Seek him with all your heart soul strength and mind.

You choose to let go of things because you would rather be with him.

There is a day that is coming,  that the word of GOD will come true. It’s not yet here. But his word will not fail

We shall be known for the LOVE that we have for each other.

That’s when OUR FATHER in heaven comes down. We can’t do it in our might our strength and nor even our even desire. We sting back when we are hurt.

He’s going to pop the cork on that bottle of wine. It’s going to be him and only him .

When the POWER of the GOD HEAD SHOWS UP.

Finally we get the prayers of the saints of old with the prayers of saints on earth today,  seeing now , the WILL of the FATHER on earth as it is in heaven.

He is going to blast his church , his body with power........ that we have never  known

God is LOVE

The greatest gift is saved up for last. Poured  out upon his body.

Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 02:31:53
He saves the best wine for last
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 02:32:46
The love of many will grow cold
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 02:38:28
You see his wisdom

Let there be light . In the beginning and in the end

Let there be light

The kingdom that comes upon will shine all around us igniting the Kingdom within

We have been fishing all night. The day of the LORD is near. His day
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: DaveW on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 05:14:57
My brother, if we cannot achieve unity on earth, Jesus' prayer in John 17 is meaningless and His plea is useless. I cannot buy that.

But Thanks, Anyway,
Eph 4:1
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
....
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 11:08:47
Reformer, you posted:

Quote
Mere Nick:

    I'm not certain what you mean by your question, "What is asked of one seeking baptism?" Please clarify it for me.

Thanks,

Buff

Every baptism I've seen the one seeking baptism is asked if they believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.  On that confessed belief, one is baptized and becomes a member of the church.  It appears to me a major problem when we demand more of others later on under the threat of shunning, disfellowship, treated as defective, or whatever.  That strikes me as a bait and switch, a moving of the goalposts.  It appears that one should only be bound by what the scriptures say as you learn them and never by what someone else tells you. 
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Texas Conservative on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 13:48:39
In the Only Rent Christians Only group I am part of there is none of the shunning.

And yes, we don't own an edifice, or building.  We rent.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 14:34:00

Mere Nick:

Your reply in Post #15 is sufficiently explained. Thank you.

Kindly,

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 19:53:09
Every baptism I've seen the one seeking baptism is asked if they believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.  On that confessed belief, one is baptized and becomes a member of the church.  It appears to me a major problem when we demand more of others later on under the threat of shunning, disfellowship, treated as defective, or whatever.  That strikes me as a bait and switch, a moving of the goalposts.  It appears that one should only be bound by what the scriptures say as you learn them and never by what someone else tells you.
Yet the church did not allow baptism for converts immediately even very early in its history, instead making them go through a vetting process as proselytes first.

Source: the Didache, written in the 1st - 3nd centuries AD.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 21:40:59

Jarrod:

    As to your #18 Post, apostasy brought this about—an apostasy the apostle Paul foretold. That apostasy is still current.

Kindly,

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Sep 17, 2021 - 21:45:36
Jarrod:

    As to your #18 Post, apostasy brought this about—an apostasy the apostle Paul foretold. That apostasy is still current.

Kindly,

Buff
Not apostasy, no.  It was necessary due to the "grievous wolves" infiltrating the flock, as Jude writes about.

Nor was this in contradiction of the commands Christ left behind.  He specifically empowered the church to "make disciples, baptizing...and teaching."

Jarrod
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 03:40:06
Nor was this in contradiction of the commands Christ left behind.  He specifically empowered the church to "make disciples, baptizing...and teaching."
Jesus didn't say to baptize and teach the disciples; rather baptizing and teaching was how He said they were to make disciples of all nations, i.e., the people of all nations. In other words, baptizing and teaching was the process for making disciples, not what was done to disciples.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 05:00:43
On that confessed belief, one is baptized and becomes a member of the church.
Not sure where you get that teaching, for you certainly did not get it from the scriptures themselves~most likely from the "church" you are part of, it must be one of "their" doctrines.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 8:35-40~"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea."
This portion of scriptures reveals a few truths to us about water baptism, the believer, and the church of God/Christ.

Philip meets a great eunuch of Ethiopia prepared by the Holy Ghost for conversion (Acts 8:26-34).

The Lord directs Philip to the desert, which direction we need for godly conversions. This man was an important government official, but he was a black, castrated Gentile.

The eunuch had been worshipping in Jerusalem as a proselyte of the Jews’ religion. While in Jerusalem, he secured a copy of part of the Old Testament and read Isaiah.

With Divine prompting, Philip joins himself to this man’s chariot prepared by God. The Lord had taken care of details, he was reading Isaiah 53 without understanding.

With the heart of a righteous man, the eunuch desires Philip to teach him the Scripture.

The Lord set Philip up perfectly. The eunuch wanted to know the Subject of Isaiah 53. Philip preaches Christ Jesus to the noble eunuch and baptizes him in the desert (Acts 8:35-38).

What a passage to preach Christ Jesus! The Lord had prepared the eunuch perfectly. After hearing about baptism, the eunuch spies some water and seeks his own baptism.

When God is in the matter, you will not need to use natural means to push conversion. The eunuch asks a perfect question about baptism~what is the necessary condition?

Baby-sprinkling heretics wish there was no answer to this important question. So they deleted Acts 8:37 from most every version of the Bible but the KJV.

Baptists and a few others hold to “believers’ baptism” because of this and other similar verses.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience (Ist Peter 3:21), which rejects babies. The eunuch also chose water deep enough to baptize Scripturally~ by immersion. As John baptized in Aenon for the much water there (John 3:23), so Philip.

Both Philip and the eunuch had to go down into the water for a godly baptism. Both Philip and the eunuch had to come up out of the water after the baptism. In this important passage, we condemn infant baptism and any mode but immersion. The eunuch, having obeyed Jesus Christ, goes on his way to Ethiopia rejoicing.

Is there something missing? Not one thing is mention about JOINING A CHURCH, either back in Jerusalem or in his own country. So we must conclude baptism and "joining" a church are not one and the same event or even connected, or more than that~there is NO SUCH DOCTRINE of joining a church in the sense in which it is taught in our day.

Joining OUR PRESENCE with other believers so that we come and go out among them we WOULD AGREE~and this fellowship we should not forsake, but other than this, there is no such doctrine taught in the word of God.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 9:26-28~"And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem."
Church memberships as it is taught in our day is a doctrine of men.
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 4:9~"With Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They shall make known unto you all things which are done here."
Disciples DID go in and out among believers in their cities, towns, etc.

But their baptism was strictly between them and God which only needed a person of the faith/religion of JESUS CHRIST doing the baptism~which religion we are baptized INTO by another believer.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 9:10~"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord."
Ananias baptized one of the greatest disciples ever in baptizing the apostle Paul would was nothing more than a disciple himself. So much for needing an ordained minister doing the baptism!
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 05:03:03
They opened up there spiritual connection that they had WITH the Father ...then there spiritual connection they had WITH the  Son ......then there spiritual connection WITH the Holy Spirit .

They baptised , released each of the Godhead ,  upon a new believer by a spiritual release. They released the kingdom of heaven .

They ascended into them , then released them one at a time , around the person so a heavenly gate would open above them. In hope they would enter.

Then they taught them in word also the  pathways of God. The way they should walk.

Now you have been given a right to become a son


Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 05:06:48
YOU lay hands upon the sick

YOU baptise

You can’t give what you haven’t got.

You have to spend time with him to get it. Spend time with them
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 05:08:10
In his name
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 05:40:50
Is there something missing? Not one thing is mention about JOINING A CHURCH, either back in Jerusalem or in his own country. So we must conclude baptism and "joining" a church are not one and the same event or even connected, or more than that~there is NO SUCH DOCTRINE of joining a church in the sense in which it is taught in our day.
Not joining a church; rather joining THE church, the church that Jesus built, the body of believers.  When one's sins are forgiven and he receives the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, one passes from being a sinner to being a saint, i.e., becoming "a member" of Jesus' church, the church He built.  So then, yes, baptism and "joining" THE church are indeed one and the same event.  At that point he becomes one of God's elect.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 06:11:10
Not joining a church; rather joining THE church, the church that Jesus built, the body of believers.  When one's sins are forgiven and he receives the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, one passes from being a sinner to being a saint, i.e., becoming "a member" of Jesus' church, the church He built.  So then, yes, baptism and "joining" THE church are indeed one and the same event.  At that point he becomes one of God's elect.
There are a few problems a person must deal with who embraces this teaching you are laboring to espoused as a truth of the scriptures.

Problem number one~Jesus clearly said that the church is built upon God's grace of freely giving the power to believe~proving that man has no part in becoming part of the church being built by God's grace through the redemption that is in his Son Jesus Christ.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 16:13-18~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
THE ROCK is the divine revelation given to the elect freely by God's grace that they may KNOW the truth concerning Jesus Christ. The church~or called out ones is NOT built by water baptism but upon the foundation stone that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven to be sins for us, that we would be made the righteousness of God through him and this truth only comes to us by God quickening us~making us alive to see, hear, and understand the blessed truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. From Abel, to Noah, to Abraham, to David, to Peter~ they ALL have come to believe by the SAME operation of the Holy Spirit opening their hearts and causing them to believe, see, and understand.

You and others truly believe that you and others HAVE THE POWER to reveal the truth concerning Jesus Christ to a sinner~yet Jesus clearly said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee
WE must follow the scriptures and teach that ONLY the Father can reveal the gospel unto a sinner who is dead in his sins, and has NO power to deliver himself, not can we deliver him, once delivered then we CAN show him how and why he was delivered~but NOT until then. Not even did Jesus AS A MAN could deliver a sinner. Selah

Maybe more later.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 08:27:00

Problem number one~Jesus clearly said that the church is built upon God's grace of freely giving the power to believe~proving that man has no part in becoming part of the church being built by God's grace through the redemption that is in his Son Jesus Christ. THE ROCK is the divine revelation given to the elect freely by God's grace that they may KNOW the truth concerning Jesus Christ.
No, the rock is NOT the divine revelation; the rock is Jesus, Himself, the Son of the living God being the Christ.

And there is nothing there about God giving the power to believe to anyone. The revelation given to Peter is that Jesus is the Christ.  And there is nothing in that passage about that revelation being given to anyone else.
Quote from: RB
The church~or called out ones is NOT built by water baptism but upon the foundation stone that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven to be sins for us, that we would be made the righteousness of God through him and this truth only comes to us by God quickening us~making us alive to see, hear, and understand the blessed truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. From Abel, to Noah, to Abraham, to David, to Peter~ they ALL have come to believe by the SAME operation of the Holy Spirit opening their hearts and causing them to believe, see, and understand.
But you are not Abel, Noah, Abraham, David or Peter.  You did not come to believe by divine inspiration.  You came to believe by the witness given through the written word of God.  That is the divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. And it is that by which you have heard the word of God [or the word about Christ] and have believed (Rom 10). 
Quote from: RB
You and others truly believe that you and others HAVE THE POWER to reveal the truth concerning Jesus Christ to a sinner
Yes of course.  That is the whole point of Romans 10:5-21.  Paul, in fact, ends that passage quoting Isaiah with the words "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." (v.21)
Quote from: RB[size=10pt
~yet Jesus clearly said: WE must follow the scriptures and teach that ONLY the Father can reveal the gospel unto a sinner who is dead in his sins, and has NO power to deliver himself, not can we deliver him, once delivered then we CAN show him how and why he was delivered~but NOT until then. Not even did Jesus AS A MAN could deliver a sinner. Selah[/size]
Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that. That is false man-made doctrine.  The passage in Romans 10 clearly teaches otherwise.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Jaime on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 10:57:28
I guess the Great Commission was actually the Great Redundancy! God really meant to  just zap everyone, instead of people going into all the world making disciples by teaching and baptising them.

Everyone agrees the water is spiritually inert. GOD does whatever is done in baptism. Man is the RECIPIENT OF God’s work in baptism. Can we put THAT to bed?
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sat Sep 18, 2021 - 15:59:05
I guess the Great Commission was actually the Great Redundancy! God really meant to  just zap everyone, instead of people going into all the world making disciples by teaching and baptising them.

Everyone agrees the water is spiritually inert. GOD does whatever is done in baptism. Man is the RECIPIENT OF God’s work in baptism. Can we put THAT to bed?

Faith > Baptism.   ::eatingpopcorn:   ::disco:: ::tippinghat:: ::whistle:: ::pondering::
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 19, 2021 - 18:30:21
What gets me on these discussions is that I can not see why baptism is so heavily debated. It is just as plain cut spelled out in the new testament as faith. If one was to read all the scripture references on baptism as we do faith we could not but see the importance of baptism as of what is is for and accomplished and how it is done just like we can not mistake what the word teaches on faith. These two topics is very heavily dealt with in Gods word and is clearly spelled out if we take to the word with out our blinders on.

I agree there are many other topics we can argue over that is not as clear cut but these two are not of them they are clearly spelled out we just have to study what each topic is really saying and do it with a heart of learning not teaching other what we think we know cause if we go strictly by what is written there could be no confusion.

Sorry for the interruption just my two cents worth now I am dead broke so carry one.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Tue Sep 21, 2021 - 14:20:40
yogi bear:

    I appreciate your remarks above on the subject of "baptism." When a person of faith is immersed in water, as Jesus and His apostles instructed, he/she is confirming—not finalizing but confirming—his/her change of direction.

    That person is then on their pilgrimage to paradise or heaven, where sorrow is no more and death is not known—eternal life in the paradise of God!

Kindly,

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Jaime on Tue Sep 21, 2021 - 16:07:24
Baptism is a more than a confirmation Buff. Per 1 Peter 3:21, it is the calling upon the Lord (or an appeal to the Lord), as Paul did in Acts 22 per Ananias' instructions to Paul.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Sep 21, 2021 - 18:25:53
Buff as I said let the scriptures do the talking because they teach beyond any doubt what baptism is and does. Just take the word for what it says. Teach it as it is recorded and there is no room for conflict.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 22, 2021 - 04:38:24
No, the rock is NOT the divine revelation; the rock is Jesus, Himself, the Son of the living God being the Christ.
Jesus is indeed the chief cornerstone of God's spiritual temple, but that's not the truth being taught in Matthew 16, not even close. The context will drive the correct interpretation of what is being discussed.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Matthew 16:13-19~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
If we follow the discussion carefully it should be very clear as to what the "rock" is in this teaching session by our Lord. BEFORE one can believe that Jesus is the Christ, his heart MUST BE OPEN to see and understand this truth, just as Christ said to Peter:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
"for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
MEANING, that those who said that Jesus was John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Elijah, or one of the Old Testament prophets, God had NOT revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ! Your position contradicts what Jesus is saying and you using Romans 10 to support your position only proves that you are not understanding Romans 10 and Paul's teaching there, which we have shown two to three times before those scriptures are speaking about THOSE WHO FEAR GOD, yet ignorant of God's righteousness, and were going about to establish their own righteousness, did not submit themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The method of submitting was CONFESSION AND REPENTANCE and calling on the name of the Lord Jesus and they would be saved from THAT ignorance.

It is very clear that those in Romans 10:1,2 are regenerate children of God IN ERROR~for even Paul TESTIFY of their zeal and fear of God which NO sinner unregenerate can and does have.

We have the same children of God here on this forum that needs salvation from their ignorance of the means of God imputing righteousness to the sinner without works of the flesh! Selah.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 22, 2021 - 07:42:37
RB, There are two major interpretations as to the identity of the "rock" upon which Christ built His Church.  One is the interpretation held mainly by the RCC that Peter is the rock.  The other is the interpretation held by most of the rest of Christendom that the rock is Jesus, Himself, who according to Peter's answer, is the "Christ, the Son of the living God".  I have never ever heard of the interpretation that you just presented.  It makes no sense whatsoever. 

The term rock is used throughout the Bible.  It carries two meanings.  The first is the ordinary meaning of a composition of mineral matter; the second refers to the LORD.  See, for example, Deuteronomy 32:3-4 which speaking about God says, "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."  Similarly the other  references such as Deuteronomy 32:15,18,30,31; 2 Sam 22:32,47; 23:3; Psa 18:2,31,46; 28:1; 31:2,3; 42:9; 61:2; 62:2,6,7 and on and on and on.

There can be no question that the rock and the cornerstone of the church are one and the same and nothing other than the truth of Peter's declaration that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.  The rock is Jesus.  He is the rock of our salvation. 

And that is, indeed, the truth being taught in Matthew 16.

RB, it never ceases to amaze me how far beyond a reasonable interpretation of Scripture you will go to bend, twist and distort it to your false soteriology.  Matthew 16 and Roman 10 are but two.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 22, 2021 - 07:49:30
We have the same children of God here on this forum that needs salvation from their ignorance of the means of God imputing righteousness to the sinner without works of the flesh! Selah.
RB, we are not saved from our ignorance.  We are saved from our sins.  And God be praised for that. 
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 00:53:51
Baptism.....pours out. He pours himself upon you.

The water baptism is a legal requirement , did not Jesus say this.

The baptism of the kingdom that comes upon is given to

Many are called but few are chosen.

The chosen ones are told and are obedient to go INTO THE UPPER ROOM AND TARRY.

The upper room is not on earth . It’s seeking him with all your heart soul strength and mind.

The problem when someone baptises you today we have word and no power....no encounter.

The baptisers have never spent time with the son spirit nor father. IN HIS KINGDOM

You have to go THERE.     You have to ascend

John 17

You can’t bring down heaven by being on earth
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 01:04:25
I am trying to understand what people are saying..

Maybe I have not understand some things.

The Baptism what I am going on is not about being saved. Ticking the boxes, enter the pearly gates.

It’s about releasing his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Once u are saved. Once saved there is a baptism that opens up heaven to believers....who are saved ....we who are saved have been given right to become sons of God. Changed from glory to glory. I’m speaking to believers .....as we are on this board.

That’s why believers had to tarry to receive the kingdom that comes upon.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 01:07:08
Baptism.....pours out. He pours himself upon you.

The water baptism is a legal requirement

The baptism of the kingdom that comes upon is offered to us who believe. We have to be taught this. Like then12 did with Jesus

Many are called but few are chosen.

The chosen ones are told and are obedient to go INTO THE UPPER ROOM AND TARRY.

The upper room is not on earth . It’s seeking him with all your heart soul strength and mind.

The problem when someone baptises you today we have word and no power....no encounter.

The baptisers have never spent time with the son spirit nor father. IN HIS KINGDOM

You have to go THERE.     You have to ascend

John 17

You can’t bring down heaven by being on earth
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 01:23:43
Sorry about the above post .....yes RB my fingers to the work. But i haven’t a clue how to do it or get it right. To correct it ...Sorry all.

Ok New King James Version
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Look as what I have been saying

Not a condition of salvation. One in us

One in us. One in us one in us
Baptised in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit

What am I saying.

As dads grandads mums grand-moms

Spiritual leaders who have been placed

You can’t release what you haven’t got. Natural biblical spiritual doors that you haven’t got.

We have been talking and about God , father son HolySpirit .  But never really understood them nor have had a relationship with each of them.

That they( us)  may be one in them. (Father Son Holy Spirit) Made 1 together . Thats after you are saved....to get to know them all

I can’t explain myself in my words  , I have tried to do my best .
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 04:10:30
RB, we are not saved from our ignorance.  We are saved from our sins.  And God be praised for that.
Brother, I 100% agree that we are saved from our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, or, by his death and resurrection. The Spirit of God is the author of THIS salvation, that is a once and for all salvation~yet it is BY THE GOSPEL we experience many practical salvations during our lifetime as we journey through this world unto our eternal home prepared by God for us. We GROW in grace AND knowledge of the truth, which truth is never perfected in our life.

Do you believe every Christian is on the same level of understanding? Of course not, and we both know that to be true, so there is a practical salvation we all experience from our first coming to Christ until now, and trust it will continue to be many more. You want to limit this to our sanctification, okay, no problem, but still we MUST experience GROWTH AND UNDERSTANDING to make progress in our practical sanctification through the hearing of the word of God. There's sanctification we have in Jesus Christ that is perfect, one that needs no growth, etc.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:30,31~"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
As you said:
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:49:30
And God be praised for that.
All of God's children said AMEN and AMEN. 
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 04:19:44
Sorry about the above post .....yes RB my fingers to the work. But i haven’t a clue how to do it or get it right. To correct it ...Sorry all.

Ok New King James Version
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Look as what I have been saying

Not a condition of salvation. One in us

One in us. One in us one in us
Baptised in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit

What am I saying.

As dads grandads mums grand-moms

Spiritual leaders who have been placed

You can’t release what you haven’t got. Natural biblical spiritual doors that you haven’t got.

We have been talking and about God , father son HolySpirit .  But never really understood them nor have had a relationship with each of them.

That they( us)  may be one in them. (Father Son Holy Spirit) Made 1 together . Thats after you are saved....to get to know them all

I can’t explain myself in my words  , I have tried to do my best .
Thank you, brother Mark, I got your overall message of what you are saying. Did you just get off work after a 12 hour day again? Get some sleep brother. My mind does not work as good with little sleep, and truly no ones does. I get myself confuse with little sleep.  I post early in the morning for a reason, very seldom late in the afternoon do I post,  ::smile::
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 07:28:58
Thank you, brother Mark, I got your overall message of what you are saying. Did you just get off work after a 12 hour day again? Get some sleep brother. My mind does not work as good with little sleep, and truly no ones does. I get myself confuse with little sleep.  I post early in the morning for a reason, very seldom late in the afternoon do I post,  ::smile::
yes I’m doing 12 hours for a few months as we don’t have manpower to cover it. Yes I am tired

You get what I am saying . To a point. That’s good as well. I know what works in the spirit realm . What also dose not work. Most post with Bible a b c . They don’t understand . They preach but don’t understand how to open the gate in heaven. How Jesus was , and is. Upon earth as he is in heaven. He showed us the way. He is the door. We find this so hard to understand? We study in word...never understanding spirit . As in connection. one struggles with , if I had a encounter with God ..really maybe you did

Imagine this. Because it’s like this

You are in worship prayer.

You feel the Lord and you just adore him...he is everything

Then he and he keeps on coming. If you haven’t experienced this , the n I ask the father to shine his face upon you. So you are wrecked by. Him .  you knees buckles , you bow you knee.

That’s not about lack of sleep,........you look at others as they are asleep.full of word but asleep

Feel free brother to question my words if they are not gospel. I love you



Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 07:42:15
I want to know what works in the spirit. By his word.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 07:48:21
Then I will take the word and go to be with him . If it doesn’t work, I will reject it for the now time . I will not reject it , but hold it at arms reach. Until the revelation comes upon me . Then I will open up his word to be closer to him . I hold each one here and there word in this way. I wait upon the Lord
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 07:51:26
Sit in his word....just sit in him
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 12:29:35
Brother, I 100% agree that we are saved from our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, or, by his death and resurrection. The Spirit of God is the author of THIS salvation, that is a once and for all salvation....
That I agree with.
Quote from: RB
....~yet it is BY THE GOSPEL we experience many practical salvations during our lifetime as we journey through this world unto our eternal home prepared by God for us. We GROW in grace AND knowledge of the truth, which truth is never perfected in our life.

Do you believe every Christian is on the same level of understanding? Of course not, and we both know that to be true, so there is a practical salvation we all experience from our first coming to Christ until now, and trust it will continue to be many more. You want to limit this to our sanctification, okay, no problem, but still we MUST experience GROWTH AND UNDERSTANDING to make progress in our practical sanctification through the hearing of the word of God. There's sanctification we have in Jesus Christ that is perfect, one that needs no growth, etc.
That I do not agree with. 

It is your confusion between salvation and sanctification that is the problem here.  I have a much more narrow view of the gospel than you seem to have.  The gospel is simply the "good news" of the kingdom of God and of salvation through Christ, to be received by faith, on the basis of His expiatory death, His burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the message of salvation; the salvation of the soul. There is not a "practical" salvation or a "legal" salvation or "whatever" salvation. Salvation is to be saved -- PERIOD.

Sanctification on the other hand, is the life long process of striving to be and live as God would have us do. The message of sanctification is God's word telling us how we should live.  That is much of the Bible; certainly most of the NT.  Sanctification is a person's relationship  with God, beginning with God's justification and regeneration of that person who believes and is baptized.  Sanctification begins with being saved and continues throughout life.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:22:47
Salvation and Sanctification ......that’s good 4WD

Separating the gospel into ....who was preaching to who and what was there message. who had already received the word of the Lord and his Spirit. But how to live there lives. How to be closer to them. How our relationship with THEM impact our lives today.

Yes .......now to understand his kingdom and get to know THEM. Most of the NT is this. Terms conditions there ways , so we can be with them. He always talked about known him and his ways ..OT

 
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:29:32
Most of  NT ..if not all was surely preached to believers . Who was saved. So if we see the word through these goggles. What is he saying to us .....believers
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 18:43:36
The message of the gospel is good news.

More now....he is good news

What does good news bring us. Hope Joy peace etc

He , once connect to him. Imparts life into us . The wages of sin is death.

He removes it . The good news is not just live after death. It’s life , the life of God defeating the death that wants to rein over us.

This is the best news . Yes life eternal, but I want peace for my soul now.

The good news is with us today. As teachers we must show the way , display the way , the way of the Lord who destroys hell. The hell that wants to keep us bound . We have the resurrection power. Living in us today. To ascend , rise above it. Today in the land of the living. This is the good news

It’s not just the ticket .....it’s the ride we are all on. Born again .....now experiencing , coming to a understanding of who he, they are. Becoming one with our creator. With each other . Our new family. We all are his . We are brothers and sisters. We shall be known for the love that we have for each other. This is the word of God , his word will not fail . The day we all long to see. He will bring this to pass.
In his coming we will grow closer. In him we are one
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 18:52:20
And if you don’t feel it....pray...pray ...pray...

Get with brothers and sisters  who pray. Build each other up....speak life not death

You have to do this work. He has done it all...but you have to enter ...the kingdom is at hand .

We have to enter . We have to go into the promised land .seek him with all your heart soul strength and mind. Love your neighbour as yourself.

This is the rules of live. His rules he has set before us.

It’s a game that I am playing . I am going to pass go and collect my 200 dollars. 
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 19:16:05
Psalm 118
New King James Version
Praise to God for His Everlasting Mercy

118 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.
2 Let Israel now say,
“His mercy endures forever.”
3 Let the house of Aaron now say,
“His mercy endures forever.”
4 Let those who fear the Lord now say,
“His mercy endures forever.”
5 I called on the Lord in distress;
The Lord answered me and set me in a broad place.
6 The Lord is on my side;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?
7 The Lord is for me among those who help me;
Therefore I shall see my desire on those who hate me.
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
10 All nations surrounded me,
But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
11 They surrounded me,
Yes, they surrounded me;
But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
12 They surrounded me like bees;
They were quenched like a fire of thorns;
For in the name of the Lord I will [a]destroy them.
13 You pushed me violently, that I might fall,
But the Lord helped me.
14 The Lord is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation.
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation
Is in the tents of the righteous;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
16 The right hand of the Lord is exalted;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
17 I shall not die, but live,
And declare the works of the Lord.
18 The Lord has chastened me severely,
But He has not given me over to death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will go through them,
And I will praise the Lord.
20 This is the gate of the Lord,
Through which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 [c]This was the Lord’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28 You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You.
29 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 19:24:25
You have to enter his kingdom. Even David knew this .

This is where we become one. The place Jesus wants us to SHOW UP.

the place were we forgive our brothers and sisters. The place not our will but his will be done. The place I only do what I SEE . my father do in heaven. It’s in heaven ....then we bring it down to earth. On earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. spiritual key....do it in heaven then bring it to earth.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 20:30:26
4WD:

   In reference to the "rock" of Matthew 16:18, another view of the "rock" goes like this, "Upon this confession of faith that I am the Christ the Son of God, I will established my ekklesia" [congregation].

    In other words, the confession itself is the "rock." I'm inclined to understand the passage thusly.

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 21:53:43
Did we miss it OT and NT

IN ................HIS  NAME

See David knew how to destroy the enemy. In the realm of the spirit. In heaven you defeat the heavenly ones

Not on earth. In heaven , you die so .....on earth you can live...be free. That’s a massive key you have to turn in the kingdom of heaven.......so we become 1. Can’t be done any other way .

Then he releases his angels so his word is upheld. He searches your heart first. Cant hide from him , why would you want to?
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Bemark on Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 21:54:32
I am a fool for him.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 02:42:57
4WD:

   In reference to the "rock" of Matthew 16:18, another view of the "rock" goes like this, "Upon this confession of faith that I am the Christ the Son of God, I will established my ekklesia" [congregation].

    In other words, the confession itself is the "rock." I'm inclined to understand the passage thusly.

Buff

No, the rock is not the confession.  The rock is Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Glorious on Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 20:40:32
Quote
  In reference to the "rock" of Matthew 16:18, another view of the "rock" goes like this, "Upon this confession of faith that I am the Christ the Son of God, I will established my ekklesia" [congregation].

    In other words, the confession itself is the "rock." I'm inclined to understand the passage thusly.

Buff

The Rock is our Lord Jesus the Christ.

By the way, what makes you say that the phrase "Jesus is the Christ and Son of God" is a confession of faith?
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Reformer on Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 21:50:06

4WD & Glorious:

    "No, the rock is not the confession. The rock is Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God."

    You might be correct, but the "rock," I think, can be understood both ways.

    As to whether or not the phrase is a confession of faith, Peter made it. It was not a confession of unbelief, but a confession of faith or reliance—assurance or conviction.

Buff
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 - 05:04:12
4WD & Glorious: You might be correct, but the "rock," I think, can be understood both ways.

    As to whether or not the phrase is a confession of faith, Peter made it. It was not a confession of unbelief, but a confession of faith or reliance—assurance or conviction.
The SUBJECT of the CONTEXT tells us clearly how we should understand Christ's words to Peter.

The subject of this short discourse is asked by a question:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 16:13b"........Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"
Peter told Jesus "Some men say he is......"~They said everyone known by them that they were convinced was from God~but, to get his point across to them, he asks them directly:
Quote
Matthew 16:15b"......But whom say ye that I am?"

The correct answer was given by Peter, (v15) yet not by the fact that Peter was wiser, more gifted, or any virtue of his own than others had, who gave an incorrect answer, but because his answer was FREELY GIVEN to him by God's divine revelation to his heart which Christ makes very clear to him:
Quote
Matthew 16:16~"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Is the very point which of this short discourse that Christ wanted them to understand so that they would not glory over other men, who had not as of yet been BLESSED of God to receive the same revelation which Peter is seen to possessed.

It is UPON THIS ROCK of being blessed of God to be able to see and understand the doctrines of Christ that the CHURCH of Jesus Christ has always and will continue to be built. If a person does not confess the doctrines of Christ it is because he is NOT of Christ, and God has not opened his understanding to see and know whom Jesus Christ truly is.
Quote from: John
2nd John vss 8-11~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
Title: Re: “That They May All Be One”
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Sep 29, 2021 - 14:56:51
rb
Quote
Not sure where you get that teaching, for you certainly did not get it from the scriptures themselves~most likely from the "church" you are part of, it must be one of "their" doctrines

Acts 2:41