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Author Topic: The 2-part man  (Read 915 times)

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The 2-part man
« on: Fri Sep 12, 2003 - 21:21:07 »
Oh this is a good one.  I'm glad you started this topic Nelta.

I got my understanding(of the 2-part man), which is shaky at best, from reading on several different topics.  One was the Annihilation theory. I read the bookTwo Views of Hell, a published debate between Ed Fudge and Peterson.  Peterson was the Protestant, Fudge is coC.  Neither won the debate.

I tend to believe that there is an invisible something inside of us, BUT it is not because I can think.  I think that most of us are simply convinced that we have an invisible 'spirit' because we hear our own voice when we are thinking to ourselves.  I believe this to be erroneous.  but thats just my two cents...
What is made in the image of God is our qualities that our like God.  Our sense of justice, altruistic love, etc.

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The 2-part man
« on: Fri Sep 12, 2003 - 21:21:07 »

boringoldguy

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The 2-part man
« Reply #1 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 11:01:06 »
\"It is appointed to a man once to die and then comes judgment.\"

That makes me think there is something left after death to be judged.

Personally, I believe in a physical resurrection, since that's what happened to Jesus.   I think our bodies will be different some how, but they'll be our bodies.

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 11:01:06 »

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 16:35:10 »
Oh, and I think we are not a two-part man, but a three-part man-body, soul and spirit, or body, mind and spirit.

And if C S Lewis, Ed fudge and Hank Hanengraaf are right and heaven is a physical, perfected, new heavens and new earth, what is hell? Is it a physical or spiritual realm? I do not know, however, it is definitely a separation from God.

Pax.

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 16:35:10 »

Offline Vindice

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 15, 2003 - 14:38:35 »
Ooooooooo good topic…   I agree with Lee on the 3 part being (Body, Mind, Spirit).  I have also studied quite a few Eastern Philosophies that do a good job of explaining this and do not conflict with Christian ideas.

There have in fact been a few ‘scientific’ experiments that show a very slight loss of weight (mass) from the body at the moment of death.  You can find these on the internet (some more reliable than others).  

I’ve never been sure why Christians shy from the esoteric and choose not to think about the spirit – self that exists within and will continue after physical death.  Physical resurrection bothers me.  There was a someone during the Civil War….I can’t remember who or the exact quote, but after seeing a field hospital with all the amputated limbs and blown away body parts said that Resurrection morn would be a great and horrible thing to see missing limbs and body parts flying through the air to meet back up with their bodies all over the world.  Now I’m not saying that anything is beyond the power of the Ancient of Days, but why would we need our physical bodies at that time?  Jesus’ body was transcended and transformed in such a way that he could walk through doors and travel instantaneously so though his body had physical characteristics I certainly doubt it remained physical in our since thinking.  

As far as Reincarnation is concerned….  I’ve never been a follower of that doctrine, but you must look at it from a serious point of view.  It was accepted and taught by Origen who was viewed for several centuries as being an imminent Christian authority.  It was in fact an acceptable Christian Doctrine until outlawed and if I remember correctly (no time to look it up now) voted down by one vote for fear that it would discount Salvation.

We ARE spiritual beings….don’t be afraid to seek answers…

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 15, 2003 - 14:38:35 »

Offline Nelta

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« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 12, 2003 - 20:42:01 »
???

On some of the email lists we often have discussions on whether there really is a 2-part man, meaning a physical body and a spirit that returns to God who gave it.  Some are saying that what is returned to God at the death of the physical body is simply the breath within us.

Then they don't seem to think that we have anything that is made in God's image, or else they have a hard time expressing it.  What would be made in God's image?

So here is the question:  Do we have within us a spirit that does not die when the physical body dies?  Or when man dies does he die all over, like Rover?  Then some are saying that at the judgement each will receive a spiritual body.  But some are saying that the condemned will have a spiritual body but it will simply be zapped after judgement because there is no hell fire.  The hell fire subject really isn't apart of this post, however.

Any thoughts?

Nelta

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« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 12, 2003 - 20:42:01 »



Offline david johnson

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« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 03:40:30 »
Do we have within us a spirit that does not die when the physical body dies?  

nelta:

yes, we do.

dj

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« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 03:40:30 »

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #6 on: Sat Sep 13, 2003 - 16:23:12 »
BOG, I, too, believe that we will be resurrected with physical, albeit, glorified, bodies. Jesus himself was resurrected with a physical body which was able to be touched by Thomas and then Jesus also ate food after his resurrection.

I also happen to believe that heaven will be the new heaven and new earth spoken of in II Peter and other places. I read a book called Resurrection, by Hank Hanengraaf which examines this subject in detail, beginning with the nature of Jesus' resurrection. He made a fairly good case for a physical resurrection.

Others, too, have taught a physical resurrection, such as C S Lewis and our own Ed Fudge, to name just two. Plus, this has always been the historical teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

I originally posted this post earlier; it was prompted by some comments on the Revelation thread. I've thought a lot about this topic in the last few years. Below are some scripture verses which have caused me to reexamine my views regarding the nature of the resurrection and heaven.

II Peter 3:5-14:

They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be dissolved.

Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for a NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH. (NRSV Emphasis added)

Revelation 21:1-5 reads:

Then I saw a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH; for the FIRST HEAVEN and the FIRST EARTH had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

\"See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
and they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them . . .
for the first things have passed away.\"
(NRSV Emphasis added)

Isaiah 65:17-18 reads:

For I am about to create NEW HEAVENS
and a NEW EARTH;
the former things shall not be
remembered
or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I am creating;
for I am about to create Jerusalem
as a joy,
and its people as a delight.
(NRSV Emphasis added)

Revelation 5:10 reads:

. . . you have made them to be
a kingdom and priests
serving our God,
and they WILL REIGN ON EARTH. (NRSV Emphasis added)

The preceding verses have caused me to rethink my views of what heaven will be like. Also, reading CS Lewis' views regarding the New Heavens and New Earth-Lewis believed in believers having resurrected, physical but glorified, bodies, which would reign on a physical earth. Besides Lewis, \"Bible Answer Man,\" Hank Hanegraaff, popular Christian author Joni Erickson Tada and our own Ed Fudge hold to this interpretation; Hanegraaff wrote a book entitled Resurrection, in which he examines, first Christ's bodily resurrection, then our own. Hanegraaff concludes that, just as Christ was resuurected with a glorified, perfected, physical body, so will we, because, among other things, Paul, in I Corinthians 15:51 says that we will not die, but will all be changed, and our mortal bodies will put on immortatily.

Paul says in I Corinthians 15:35-55:

But someone will ask, \"How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?\" Fool! What you sow does not come to life until it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. . . .

So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, \"The first man, Adam, became a living being\"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:

\"Death has been swallowed up in
victory.\"
\"Where, O death, is your
victory?
Where, O death, is your
sting?\"
(NRSV Emphasis added)

Regarding the idea of the whole of creation waiting to be renewed, Romans 8 19-24 says:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the Children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves . . . .

According to Hanegraaff, the key is the way in which the Greek words which are translated \"flesh and blood\" and \"spiritual\" should be interpreted and translated. Hanegraaff contends, based upon consulting Greek Bible scholars, that the word \"spiritual\" as used by Paul does not mean diembodied, ethereal and without form, as we usually think of it, but, rather, means glorified or perfected. He contends that as Christ was raised with a physical body (he ate fish, for example), but which was glorified, so will we be raised with a perfected, glorified body.

Well, that's enough of this for now.

Pax vobiscum.

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #7 on: Mon Sep 15, 2003 - 13:25:45 »
Lee,

Interesting thoughts.  I also believe that a new heaven and earth will be created for us and that we will be in physical bodies. That may be in part because of my pre-mil upbringing but that is my view.

Where i do not agree with Edward is that the soul/body sleeps in the grave until the return of Christ.  i believe from what i have studied--and I have not really gone into this subject at any time more than to just skim the surface of it-that there is consciousness instantly upon separation of the soul from the body.  At what point that occurs in the death process, I don't know.  I will say I personally know a woman that has told she died and was brought back to life (medically confirmed in the records).  She has told me that she had an near-death out-of-body experience.  She did not see Jesus or Heaven!  What she saw was the doctors and nurses working over her body from above the ceiling.  She told me that it was a peace that she had never known before and as a result has lost all fear of death.  She did say that she \"heard\" a voice that said it wasn't time and that she did not want to leave the peace she felt.  She told her doctors what she saw soon after the incident and they confirmed she was 100% accurate in what she saw and that her heart had stopped.  Whether or not someone believes this or not, it does count into the view I hold to as additional evidence. She is the wife of the oldest friend I have on this earth.  A firendship that has survived 50 years!

The early Jews believed in the soul being alive after death, even though they had only a very hazy picture of what might happen.  We really don't have a whole lot more either, except for words by Jesus referring directly to life after death.
Been alot of disagreement on that over the years in all the different churches/denominations/etc.

BTW, Edward has held to an annihilationist view of Hell.  The souls that are bound into hell are consummed by the fires of hell into nothing and won't exist after being consummed.  I can basically go along with that view of Hell about as easily as an eternal Hell.  I can't go along with the idea of no Hell at all!

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 15, 2003 - 23:51:31 »
Vindice, I must respectfully disagree with your statement on Origen. Origen taught, not reicarnation, but the preexistence of souls-that all rational beings have existed eternally and that at some point they fell away from contemplating God, becoming angels, humans or demons according to how far they fell. The physical universe, according to Origen, was created to accomodate these fallen beings.

Though Origen considered himself orthodox (and he was imprisoned and tortured by the authorities in an attempt to force him to renounce his faith, which he refused to do) Origen's orthodoxy has been questioned by many over the centuries. In the fourth century there was an anti-Origen movement and in the sixth century he was officially condemned as a heretic. He has been accused of absorbing Platonist ideas into his theology; some have accused him of teaching \"Platonism for the masses.\" Origen had somewhat unorthodox views on the Trinity-he taught the concept of a graded Trinity, with the Father greater than the Son, who was greater than the Spirit-to Origen, the Father alone is true God. And if the generation of the Son was not eternal, then to Origen that meant that previously the Father was either unable or unwilling to generate the Son. Either suggestion is unworthy of God, so the son's generation must be eternal. Origen used this same argument to prove that all creation was eternal. Origen also taught that the Bible could not be properly understood without the use of allegory

Reinarnation, on the other hand, teaches that immortal souls are re-incarnated in several bodies (in classic Hinduism, a person can regress if they've done bad things, being reincarnated in a lesser caste, or even as an animal, which is why cows are allowed in the streets in Indian cities) until a person balances his or her karma and, in classic eastern thought, attains nirvana, and merges with the divine, which is not viewed  in concrete, objective terms as a personal being, but as a sort of impersonal \"force\" or \"essence.\"  Reincarnation clearly contradicts Hebrews 9:27, which reads \"And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement. . .\"

Christ had a glorified, body which was, as you say, able to pass through doors, but, it was also a physical body, as Christ ate fish and let Thomas touch his wounds, something a spirit couldn't do.

Like I said before, why would God create us with physical bodies if all along he intended to free our souls from those bodies? This sounds more like gnosticism to me, which held that matter was evil, and only the soul mattered. Physical resurrection has been the traditional teaching of the church

Athenagoras wrote a Plea (dated to c. 176-177 AD) to the Roman Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and Lucius Aurelius Commodus (Unlike the portrayal in the movie \"Gladiator\" they ruled jointly), in which he responded to false charges levelled against Christians, among them atheism, incest and cannibalism-that Christians, because they ate the body and blood of Jesus were cannibals. Athenagoras in his response to the charges of cannibalism, also touches on the resurrection:

36. What man, moreover, who is convinced of the resurrection would make himself into a tomb for bodies that will rise again? The same persons would surely not believe that our bodies will rise again and then eat them as if there were no resurrection. They would not think that the earth will give back its dead and then imagine that it will fail to demand those entombed in them.

On the contrary, those who deny they will have to give account of the present life, be it wicked or good, who reject resurrection and who count on the soul's perishing along with the body and so to say, flickering out, are likely to stop at no outrage. But those who are convinced that the God will look into everything and that the body which has aided the soul in its unreasonable lusts and passions will be punished  along with it, they have no good reason to commit even the slightest sin.

But suppose someone thinks it sheer nonsense that the body which has rotted, decomposed, and been reduced to nothing, should again be put together. Those who do not believe this would be wrong in accusing us of wickedness. They should rather accuse of folly. For we do not harm anyone by having mistaken opinions.

It would be out of place here to show that we are not alone in believing bodies will rise again. Many of the philosophers have taught this. . . . Even according to Pythagoras and Plato the dissolution of the body does not prevent it from being reconstructed with the very elements of which it originally consisted. - (36)


Irenaeus, in his \"Against Heresies,\" (c. 185 AD) says:

Vain above all are they who despise the whole dispensation of God, and deny the salvation of the flesh and reject its rebirth, saying that it is not capable of incorruption. For if this [mortal flesh] is not saved, then neither did the Lord redeem us by his blood, nor is the cup of the Eucharist the communion of his blood, and the bread which we break the communion of his body. For blood is only to be found in veins and flesh, and the rest of [physical] human nature, which the Word of God was indeed made [partaker of, and so] he redeemed us by his blood. So also his apostle says, \"In whom we have redemption by his blood, and the remission of sins.\" . . . As the blessed Paul says in the Epistle to the Ephesians, that we are members of his body, of his flesh and his bones. He does not say this about a [merely] spiritual and invisible man, for the spirit has neither bones nor flesh, but about [God's] dispensation for the real man, [a dispensation] consisting of flesh and nerves and bones, which is nourished by his cup, which is his blood, and grows by the bread which is his body.

And just as the wooden branch of the vine, placed in the earth, bears fruit in its own time-and as the grain of wheat, falling to the ground and there dissolved, rises with great increase by the Spirit of God, who sustains all things. . .and when it receives the Word of God becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ-so also our bodies which are nourished by it, and then fall into the earth and are dissolved therein, shall rise at the proper time, the Word of God bestowing on them this rising again, to the glory of God the Father. It is he who grants to this mortal immortality, and gives to the corruptible the gracious gift of incorruption. . . -

And my KJV Study Bible Dictionary has this in its enrty on resurrection:

RESURRECTION. The doctrine of the reunion of body and soul having been separated by death. . . . The Scriptures clearly teach the body shall rise again having its identity preserved; that it will be a glorious body, like the glorified body of Christ, and will endure with the soul through all eternity. . . .

The ancient Pharisees taught a physical resurrection, the Sadducees did not.

Pax vobiscum.

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 15, 2003 - 23:51:31 »