Butch5 can you please explain by what you mean with this "I disagree with the terminology as Peter connects the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the events at Cornelius' house."

Read your Old Testament.  God chose the tribe of Levi.  He chose Aaron's sons and even the line of Zadok.  We should get our understanding of doctrine from the Bible, not Jospehus, not liberal commentaries, and not descriptions of paganism in Greece and the Ancient Near East.



God pouring out His Spirit on Israel is a good thing.  Most 'pouring' in the OT is negative stuff, wrath, etc. being poured out because Israel was so wicked most of the time.  But that doesn't make the act of pouring out bad.  One translation says that God poured out His love in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.  

If pouring is so bad, how do you get your drink in a glass at dinner?  

God poured out His wrath on Israel.  One of their sins was idolatry, and it wasn't sinful because it was musical.  sure, music can be used in idolatry. So can speaking and animal sacrifice.  But God commanded speaking and animal sacrifice in various Old Testament rituals.  So these things are not sinful.  Neither is strumming an instrument in praise of God.


The Bible shows us that praising God to instrumental accompaniment is a GOOD THING.  Israel was not sinning by doing so.  Their sin was idolatry.  when the committed idolatry and then praised the Lord with music, the Lord was also displeased with their duplicity, but the playing of instruments accompanying singing of praise is not sinful or idolatrous in and of itself.

When it comes to praising God to the sound of instruments, you call good evil, don't you?


they may have played instruments to false gods.  They ate and drank, too, but that was also part of celebrations commanded for the living God.  Israelites ate of their tithes before the Lord.  Christians eat the Lord's Supper.  Pagans ate, too, and so did Israelites when they were commiting idolatry, but that doesn't make all eating bad.  It doesn't make using stringed instruments or horns evil either.


I wonder how many people on the forum know what you are talking about.


What do you mean by scribes naming instrument players?  Are you talking about Jesus' parable of playing a pipe to them?

Read your Old Testament.  God chose the tribe of Levi.  He chose Aaron's sons and even the line of Zadok.  We should get our understanding of doctrine from the Bible, not Jospehus, not liberal commentaries, and not descriptions of paganism in Greece and the Ancient Near East.

This gets off track a bit but it is important to understand why there is so many passages in the prophets warning about a Spirit OF Fire and a Spirit OF judgment. Even with Cornelius 'embraced it was the BREATH of God which produced WORDS in the Judean language which the Jews clearly understood. This was a sign of Judgment upon the doubting Jews still ready to DENY baptism to the Gentiles unless they were circumscized and kept the Law of Moses which was added because of transgression and not a sign of predestination.

The REASON for this overwhelming with WIND or Breath of God and FIRE was to DISQUALIFY the Law of Moses and the NOT-commanded sacrificial system which burned lambs and children with fire.  Nothing could have been a more powerful death blow to the exclusive Jews (Edomites probably) than to have JUDEANS speaking in NON-Hebrew about THEIR Messiah whom they could not deny but still murdered.  Peter reached back a decade to prove to the doubting Jews that this was proof that the Spirit HAD BEEN poured out to the Gentiles long ago.  Instead of an ANGRY WIND the baptized believer would have A holy spirit in which God thorugh His Word could dwell and be sought. This gave them REST from the curse of the Law where the service of the Levites was HARD BONDAGE using aword having the same meaning as abaddon or apollyon in Revelation.

       Psa. 33:6 By the [1] word of the [2] LORD were the heavens made;
           and all the host of them by the [3] breath of his mouth.
       Psa. 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap:
           He layeth up the depth in storehouses.
       Psa. 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD:
           let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
       Psa. 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

God abandoned Israel to worship the STARRY HOST because of sin at Mount Sinai.  They were continuing their old Egyptian cult and the name LEVITE includes the tribe of Levi but it also points to the worship of Dionysus which coverered the whole area from Babylon, Canaan, Egypt and Greece.  Acts 7 makes it clear with Amos that they continued the worship of Molech and other 'gods' representing the Sun, Moon and wandering stars or known planets. The Nacash in Genesis points directly to the NAGA or serpent and sun worshipers of Persia and India.

The Jewish Encyclopedia confirms what the Bible makes clear, that the Temple system was a NATIONAL or STATE sacrificial system. Christ in the prophets deny that this is what God commanded them when He saved them by pure grace. That was Sabazianism derived from Sabius or Dionysus / Bacchus: this was still part of the mindset of the Jewish clergy.

I would rather seek the advice of the almost-universal scholarly opinion than I would one trained as a speaker..

The Ghebers of Hebron 2 Hoaea, xii. 4 derives the name Inrael from Sarah to contend, to fight, and El = God of Fire. — Gen. xxxii. '28. Asarians, Asriel, Israel, a name of the War god {Exodus, xiii. 21, 22, xiv. 25), Saturn and the Sun. The Fire-god Azar was the God of war, and M'irs was the Sun. — Macrob. I. xvii. OS

     For the Sabbath worshipers in the church: that was the day for the worship of ALL of the SUN gods.

The Jews blew the trumpet on the newmoon, poured out libations and offered burnt sacrifices. And for this duty the Lobii, Luim  or Levites were assigned to do just what the Brahmans did in India. They ministered to la'hoh, Lord of Life, according to Exodus, iii. 14 ; xxxviii. 21; xl. 15; Jeremiah, xxxiii. 18. Hence the Jews were the Brahmaus of Palestine, as Josephus said, worshipping Brahma, whom, for their own political purposes, they chose to regard as Ab (Father) Ram (Most High) which title is not unsuitable to the Most High of the Hindu Gods. King states that the words brahrna and abrahm have the same numerical value.6 

But these fire-worshippers carried with them the arks of Moloch and Khiun (Life-god), their Adon, and they had, like the other peoples of the Delta, their Mysteries, which the priests instituted. They took with them from Phoenicia, probably, a certain knowledge of fixed vocal signs; and it would not be safe to deny to Syria the possession of some sort of (Syrian) hieroglyphs

When the Gurus claim that Amos was just condemning "a bad mental attitude" then you grasp why Jesus fired the "doctors of the Law for taking away the key to knowledge."

Whatever the monarchs called "God" it was NOT the Jehovah of Jacob: He always hypenates His name to keep down the confusion. As Jesus He is Jehovah-Saves who came to save us FROM that "crooked race" probably Edomites and not Children of Israel..

THAT CANNOT DISTURB YOU IF YOU READ THE PROPHETS OR JUST ACTS 7: STEPHEN SAID THAT GOD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.   Doesn't the Words of Christ in the Prophets count for anything as His PROVIDING A WAY OF ESCAPE?

>  Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;
       Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. Jeremiah 7:21
>  For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them
       in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
       concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22
>  But  this thing commanded I them, saying,
       Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
       and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
       that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23
>  But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
       but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
       and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

That was ABSOLUTE when the elders FIRED God and demanded a human king.  Just read the text of the first major PROPHET of doom:

http://www.piney.com/First-Samuel-Eight.html

In the name of common sense, WHY would anyone listen to anyone demanding that the SPIRIT told him to DO that to which God ABANDONED first Israel and then Judah?

Jacob says I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord!" Of Simeon and Levi the patriarch remarks that they

    Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments [Sword or Musical]
             of cruelty are in their habitations.
    Gen. 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret;
            unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united:
            for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

    Habitations means "stabbing" from "a cooking range" or boiler, a pot or furnace. God knew that they had a lust for blood and flesh and that was the only rationale for the national or pagan sacrificial systems.

The Levites would be warriors and the latin is bellor To understand such words, the Greek and Latin literature must be read.

In Vergil Aeneid 11 the word Bello is used of the triumph over using music.

With such, return'd triumphant from the war,
Her maids with cries attend the lofty car;
They clash with manly force their moony shields;
With female shouts resound the Phrygian fields.

Gen. 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
        I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

"Dan," he says, "shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse-heels, so that his rider shall fall backwards (i.e., he will teach candidates black magic) .

    Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
            an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels,
            so that his rider shall fall backward.

David was KING and the Levites were under the king and commanders of the army: they were not part of the priestly class and even to COME NEAR any holy thing would get them killed.

The Bible is a history of the HEBREW PEOPLE: as such, it includes the Civil-Military-Priestly class which in all nations served the STATE and gave glory to it: they did not serve the people but as God promised when He gave them a "king in His anger" that the Monarchy--as national idolatry--would destroy them.

Let me say it again: the Spiritual THREAD is defined by Christ in spirit through the WRITING PROPHETS.  Only these earlier prophets and the later apostles LAID (past tense) the foundation of the Church.  You can lay a foundation only once  and this one is built on the ROCK (Christ in the wilderness church).

Once a will is probated by its testators it forever stands for the mind of the one making the Will.

It confirms the Bible that all of the historic scholars DENY that God needed a human king, priests and a sacrificial system QUARANTINED within the walls of the CITY: We as Christians go OUTSIDE of the city to find Christ and suffer REPROACHES with Him.   

Hi Bill,

If you're really interested in studying this topic, I encourage you to visit a few churches in your area that believe that the supernatural empowerment of the Spirit is still in operation today.  Like with the baptism with the Holy Spirit being passed on through the laying on of hands of other believers, especially those in leadership who are baptized in the Spirit, the baptism with the Spirit is caught/transferred as much through the body of Christ as it is through personal encounter with the Lord.  

And of course, if you have any questions for me, as to why I believe as I do, I'll gladly respond.

Blessings,
Sherman

The Methodist second work of Grace is not that promised at baptism where Peter in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 connects:
        Baptism as a request FOR the remission of sins
        Which gives one A holys spirit or A good conscience.
        Peter equates A holy spirit to A good conscience as the result of baptism
        Therefore Peter says tha A holy spirit is A good conscience neither of which are "persons."

    Heb. 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
    Heb. 10:22 Let us draw near with A true heart in full assurance of faith,
            having OUR HEARTS sprinkled from an evil conscience,
            and OUR BODIES washed with pure water.
     Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, [Church of Christ]
            which are written in heaven,
            and to God the Judge of all,
            and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
     Only those whose sins were remitted by baptism, defacto had A holy or perfected spirit
            and only those were CONFESSED in heaven, added to the Church of Christ.

      Col. 1:13 Who hath
            delivered us from the power of darkness, [Crooked skolion singers and players]
            and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
      Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We identify and accept that blood sacrifice only at water baptism: those who have OBEYED that "pattern capable of being imitated" are THEN free from sin: our spirits are free from sin.

     Therefore, OUR hearts sprinkled FROM our evil makes OUR Conscience a pure or A holy conscience.
     Conscience is also consciousness meaning a "co-perception."
     Paul told the Corinthian Jews that they would not be able to read the Old Testament written with
     BLACK ink on BROWN paper
           until they converted or were BAPTIZED requesting that qualification
           To enable one to be a DISCIPLE of Christ Who from the foundation of the world wrote
           in parables to fool the foolish mercinaries: that hiddenness is in plain view for the honest
           seeker who DILIGENTLY SEEKS.
      A church is the ekklesia or synagogue or church in the wilderness: a baptized DISCIPLE is a CHRISTIAN
      and Christ said that the "leaders" should teach what HE taught through the prophets and apostles.
      The church has no business stirring up the flesh (a laded burden is a song) to make people endorse
      the leader. That is exactly what is well documented in the literature and Paul warned about
      appearing to be MAD.  I have seen it even in brush arbor days where the Sheriff stood by.

            After making it air tight clear that Jesus was their only revelation of Father, Son and Spirit
            who in all pagan trinities were THREE separated beings right then being worshipped by
            the Jews in their temple built for the ongoing worship of the starry host including Zeus.

            In John 16 He confessess to speaking PROVERBS which assuredly still fools the foolish
            pretenders to Divine power: The say that the SPIRIT told them to LIE.

THE OTHER SOURCE IS JOHN CALVIN who agrees with Jesus Christ Who said

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
            the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE

     In the NOT musical passage "that which is written" (Rom 15) is SPIRIT (Ep 5) is THE WORD OF CHRIST (Col 3)

Institutes of Christian Religion, B1, Ch9

http://www.piney.com/CalvinSpWord.html

Sections:
1. The temper and error of the Libertines, who take to themselves the name of spiritual, briefly described. Their refutation.
    (a). The Apostles and all true Christians have embraced the written Word.
            This confirmed by a passage in Isaiah; also by the example and words of Paul.
    (b). The Spirit of Christ seals the doctrine of the written Word on the minds of the godly.
(2) Refutation continued.
    a) The impositions of Satan cannot be detected without the aid of the written Word.
          First Objection. The Answer to it.
3. Second Objection from the words of Paul as to the letter and spirit.
     The Answer, with an explanation of Paul's meaning.
     How the Spirit and the written Word are indissolubly connected.

1.The fanatics wrongly appeal to the Holy Spirit

Those who, rejecting Scripture, imagine that they have some peculiar way of penetrating to God, are to be deemed not so much under the influence of error as madness. For certain giddy men have lately appeared, who, while they make a great display of the superiority of the Spirit,
            reject all reading of the Scriptures themselves,
            and deride the simplicity of those who only delight in what they call the dead and deadly letter.

But I wish they would tell me what spirit it is whose inspiration raises them to such a sublime height that they dare despise the doctrine of Scripture as mean and childish.
         If they answer that it is the Spirit of Christ, their confidence is exceedingly ridiculous;
        since they will, I presume, admit that the apostles and other believers in the primitive Church
        were not illuminated by any other Spirit.

None of these thereby learned to despise the word of God,
        but every one was imbued with greater reverence for it, as their writings most clearly testify.

And, indeed, it had been so foretold by the mouth of Isaiah. For when he says,
        "My Spirit that is upon thee,
        and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
            shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
            nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever,"

        he does not tie down the ancient Church to external doctrine, as he were a mere teacher of elements;
        he rather shows that, under the reign of Christ, the true and full felicity of the new Church will consist
        in their being ruled not less by the Word than by the Spirit of God.

Hence we infer that these miscreants are guilty of fearful sacrilege in tearing asunder what the prophet joins in indissoluble union.

Add to this, that Paul, though carried up even to the third heaven, ceased not to profit by the doctrine of the law and the prophets, while, in like manner, he exhorts Timothy, a teacher of singular excellence, to give attention to reading, (1 Tim. 4: 13.)

And the eulogium which he pronounces on Scripture well deserves to be remembered, viz., that
        "it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
        and for instruction in righteousness,
        that the man of God may be perfect," (2 Tim. 3: 16.)
 
What an infatuation of the devil, therefore, to fancy that Scripture,
        which conducts the sons of God to the final goal,
        is of transient and temporary use?

Again, I should like those people to tell me whether they have imbibed any other Spirit than that which Christ promised to his disciples. Though their madness is extreme, it will scarcely carry them the length of making this their boast.

But what kind of Spirit did our Saviour promise to send?
        One who should not speak of himself, (John 16: 13,)
        but suggest and instil the truths which he himself had delivered through the word.

Hence the office of the Spirit promised to us,
        is not to form new and unheard-of revelations,
        or to coin a new form of doctrine,
        by which we may be led away from the received doctrine of the gospel,
        but to seal on our minds the very doctrine which the gospel recommends.

So, the modern Charismatic movement has no historical support from those they THIN taught their views.

Link I quote the Bible and MOST recorded literature from Babylonian tablets up to the latest.  I keep looking for one honest connection to MUSIC being something you can use to control God with.  I think you missed Acts 7 which is from Exodus 32 (ACU's mountain theme just LEAPED off the mountain and missed it).  It was musical idolatry which requested God to TURN THEM OVER (Abandone) them to worship the STARRY HOST.  Now, I don't know anyone not mercinary who would LUST to tell people that the Spirit person told them that GOD COMMANDED THEM to do instrumental praise (whatever that means) and THEY should not disobey even as they were sowing discord and like PARASITES (sacrificial musicians) just eating up the lives of weeping widows.

You won't find the Bible, the church fathers or founders of denominations which does not support my view of INSTRUMENTS as never connected to the Spiritual worship of a Spirit God: in the Prophets inspired by Christ the Spirit you will find HIM denouncing the MUSIC as a mark of people who tell God to "shut your face." That needs no proving: when you translating SPEAK to mean MAKE MUSIC you violate the direct commands beginning in the Church in the Wilderness onward to use "that which is written" (Rom), The Spirit (Eph 5) or The Word of Christ in Col 3).

You will find no historical evidence that anyone even HALLUCINATED singing as an ACT before it was imposed from the Syriac group in the year 373. Because it split and still splits the east from the western church it is clearly historical.

Not even the Catholics sang congregational with organ accompaniment: it was the Reformers who reluctangly permitted SINGING in the churches because they had been used for musical performances after the Catholicslost them.

I don't have to PROVE anything: the Bible is NOT metrical and you could not SING it tunefully if your life depended on it. That is why the psalms (only) were radically REWRITTEN to make singing possible. Even then when Paul said to use "that which is written" wit ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH only unison singing was permitted or possible. Slowly people began to devise a form of harmony which only slowly developed.

What is it about quoting the Bible that reminds you of paganism.  All scholars use the Strong's numbers as a starting place because whole Bibles (the WEB) use those numbers or the equivalent.

THE LEVITES ARE THE PATTERNISM FOR THOSE IMPOSING MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.

Jacob says I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord!" Of Simeon and Levi the patriarch remarks that they

    Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments [Sword or Musical]
             of cruelty are in their habitations.
    Gen. 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret;
            unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united:
            for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Your friends USE the Levites under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY who made NOISE only during the burnt offering of the GOATS as an effort at a UNITY MEETING with already-lost Israel as the authority.  Christ in the prophets say that GOD DID NOT COMMAND burnt offerings when He saved them by Grace at the Red Sea.

I suggest that your MISLEADERS have never read the prophets because they don't follow the demand to teach THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES.

    Habitations means "stabbing" from "a cooking range" or boiler, a pot or furnace. God knew that they had a lust for blood and flesh and that was the only rationale for the national or pagan sacrificial systems.

Just to confirm that the NATIONAL worship to which God ABANDONED THEM was just like all other pagans:

The Levites would be warriors and the latin is bellor To understand such words, the Greek and Latin literature must be read.

    In Vergil Aeneid 11 the word Bello is used of the triumph over using music.

    With such, return'd triumphant from the war,
    Her maids with cries attend the lofty car;
    They clash with manly force their moony shields;
    With female shouts resound the Phrygian fields

Your best Greek scholar has no first century dictionary: the only way to understand a word is to read the LITERATURE of the time.  If you gave a scholar a Bible in Greek he would not be able to read a single word without depending on the ancient literature to see how the words are USED (not defined).

All of the "musical" words such as PSALLO speak of warfare or sexual pollution:

    Pulso To strike or punish, military machines, of musical instruments.

    Tŭmultus , 1. In milit. lang., a sudden or impending war, civil war, insurrection, tumult, sedition, rebellion 2. tremendo Juppiter ipse ruens tumultu, i. e. the roar of thunder, storm, etc.:

When they LIED about the psallo or plucking word all of their proof literature shows an older male plucking a harp to seduce a young male.  The sounds always means Scribes and Pharisees (hypocrites says Jesus) are MAKING CIVIL WAR and the ditto heads love to see the blood flow.

    The sounds are the Halal praise sounds which means "to make self vile" as a threat more often than worship.
   
    Ululu See Hillel, below.  This is the "lord, lord" form of prophesying Jesus does not hear.
    B.Transf., of places, to ring, resound, re-echo with howling: căno  I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.

    [color=blue>Gen. 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
            I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.[/color]

    "Dan," he says, "shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse-heels, so that his rider shall fall backwards (i.e., he will teach candidates black magic) .

        Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
                an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels,
                so that his rider shall fall backward.

The Temple used as authority for your church stealers was devoted to STAR and SERPENT worship.

I think that you should get angry that the colleges have mislead you by preparing people "exercising PROPHETIC ROLES as Chanellers sent out to FACILITATE (manipulate) the NEEDED CHANGE to the conservative churches."

But Scribes and Pharisees whom Jesus called HYPOCRITES by pointing ot speakers, singers and instrument players know perfectly well that they could not exist by dispensing the FREE WATER OF THE WORD.

Thanks Link for making your discussion with blituri a seperate thread.