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Author Topic: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.  (Read 5981 times)

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Online 4WD

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #280 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 05:49:36 »
You need to read these words CAREFULLY for they are saying the very opposite of what you said above in the red highlight, even though I know you will fight this truth until God opens your eyes, or until you close them in death~I pray for the former.
You are suggesting here, I presume, that one must be saved in order to believe.  But that is ridiculous, RB, and goes against everything God says about either being saved or believing or both.  And in fact is the contradiction of verse 21:

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

It is not those who God saves that believe.  Clearly it is those who believe that God saves.  Believe what?  Believe what Paul preaches.  And what does Paul preach?  The gospel.  He preaches the gospel (v.17). They hear the gospel. They believe the gospel. God saves them. How does God save them?  He saves them by "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)


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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #280 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 05:49:36 »

Offline Alan

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #281 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 06:13:25 »
Sorry Red, I do tend to agree with Jaime and the need to connect scripture to interpret scripture. Maybe I'm not perfectly understanding Kenneth's stance, and I for sure do not understand your position, so YES, please do elaborate in regards to Mark 16:16 and 1Peter 3:21.
Thanks Red.













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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #281 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 06:13:25 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #282 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 12:42:57 »
As SPIRIT Jesus went

1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

JESUS WAS QUICKEND BY THE SPIRIT

1Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in prison;
1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were DISOBEDIENT, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, EIGHT SOULS WERE SAVED BY WATER

I would not want to be caught denying that.

The MERCY SEAT is
3724.  kopher, ko´-fer; from 3722; properly, a cover, i.e. (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively, a redemption-price:—bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village.




WHICH IS THE COVERING OF NOAH'S ARK:

BAPTISM is used of DIPPING TO DYE: Not sprinkled or tiedied.

H3722. kaphar, kaw-far´; a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:—appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile(-liation).

Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, MOVED with fear, PREPARED an ark to the SAVING of his house; by the which he CONDEMNED the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is BY FAITH.

The Flood, the Red Sea and the obedient faith of Jesus is a TYPE or pattern intended to be imitated.
We OBEY that form in BAPTISM and THEN WE ARE FREE FROM SINS.

1Pet. 3:21 The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM. DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

STRONGS NT 1906: ἐπερώτημα
ἐπερώτημα, ἐπερωτεματος, τό (ἐπερωτάω);
1. an inquiry, a question: Herodotus 6,67; Thucydides 3, 53. 68.
2. a demand; so for the Chaldean שְׁאֵלָא in Daniel 4:14 Theod.; see ἐπερωτάω, 2.
3. As the terms of inquiry and demand often include the idea of desire, the word thus gets the signification of earnest seeking, i. e. a craving, an intense desire (so ἐπερωτᾶν εἰς τί, to long for something,

2Sam. 11:7 And when Uriah was come unto him, David DEMANDED of him how Joab did, and how the people did, and how the war prospered.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good GIFTS unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father GIVE the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him?

g154 w aiteo, ahee-teh´-o; of uncertain derivation; to ask (in genitive case): — ask, beg, call for, crave, desire, require. Compare 4441.

Hos. 4:12 My people ASK counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the SPIRIT OF whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

H7592.  shaw-al´; or lEaÎv shael, shaw-ale´; a primitive root; to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand:—ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, x earnestly, enquire, + greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, + salute, x straitly, x surely, wish.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; SEEK, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luke 11:10 For every one that ASKETH receiveth; and he that SEEKETH findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luke 11:11 If a son shall ASK bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ASK a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:
        for he that cometh to God MUST BELIEVETH THAT HE IS
        AND that he is a rewarder of them that diligently SEEK him.

G1567.  ekzeteo, ek-zay-teh´-o; from 1537 and 2212; to search out, i.e. (figuratively )investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebraism) worship: — en- (re-)quire, seek after (carefully, diligently). 2212 desire, endeavour, enquire (for), require, (x will) seek (after, for, means

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt. 7:14 Because STRAIT is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening WOLVES [that gender thingy]



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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #282 on: Fri Feb 16, 2018 - 12:42:57 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #283 on: Sat Feb 17, 2018 - 23:06:06 »
Soterion,
Good to meet you. Thank you for your input.
What do you think accounts for the void of scriptural teaching around conversion these days and that seeming normal to people? I find it bizarre and disturbing that people say a person should be saved first and then start learning the word of God.

Thank you.

I find many things "bizarre."

I find it bizarre that some, such as Lutherans, believe one can be "born again" as an infant, through baptism or other "means of grace."

I find it bizarre that some apparently believe that in-depth Bible study is necessary for one to be "born again," essentially saying that one must first be a disciple before becoming a convert.

I find it bizarre that some believe one must start living the new lifestyle *before* the *initiation* ceremony of baptism.

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #283 on: Sat Feb 17, 2018 - 23:06:06 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #284 on: Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 11:28:45 »
NorrinRadd,
Quote
I find many things "bizarre."

I find it bizarre that some, such as Lutherans, believe one can be "born again" as an infant, through baptism or other "means of grace."
Same here.

Quote
I find it bizarre that some apparently believe that in-depth Bible study is necessary for one to be "born again,"
I don't say that. It's not like in depth Bible study is a part of getting saved, like belief or repentance. What I say, as in the OP, is that from the Word is where seekers learn what they need to be saved and they should be taught directly from the Word. Both about Jesus and what they're getting into, as in Luke 14. Some people do extensive Bible Study, others go over it all in one conversation, but do open the Bible, and both are good.

Quote
...essentially saying that one must first be a disciple before becoming a convert. I find it bizarre that some believe one must start living the new lifestyle *before* the *initiation* ceremony of baptism.
What do you make of Matthew 28:19 and John 8:31-32?
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 19, 2018 - 00:11:32 by e.r.m. »

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #284 on: Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 11:28:45 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #285 on: Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 16:28:25 »
NorrinRadd,
I've run into people who look at me like a deer in the headlights when I ask them about salvation matters, people years in their faith. Since they are actually trained not to look at scriptures pertaining to that in the beginning, they never look at it again. They simply take for granted whatever paradigm is handed to them. It's a problem with many people.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 17:44:20 by e.r.m. »

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #285 on: Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 16:28:25 »

Online RB

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #286 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 05:08:37 »
I find many things "bizarre."

I find it bizarre that some, such as Lutherans, believe one can be "born again" as an infant, through baptism or other "means of grace."

I find it bizarre that some apparently believe that in-depth Bible study is necessary for one to be "born again," essentially saying that one must first be a disciple before becoming a convert.

I find it bizarre that some believe one must start living the new lifestyle *before* the *initiation* ceremony of baptism.
Quote from:  e.r.m. Sun Feb 18, 2018
I don't say that.
You do, except
Quote from: NorrinRadd Sat Feb 17, 2018 - 23:06:06
I find it bizarre that some, such as Lutherans,  believe one can be "born again" as an infant, through baptism or other "means of grace
But you even said this in your post back to NorrinRadd:
Quote from: e.r.m. Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 11:28:45
It's not like in depth Bible study is a part of getting saved, like belief or repentance. What I say, as in the OP, is that from the Word is where seekers learn what they need to be saved and they should be taught directly from the Word
Here is your serious error, an error that truly reveals your gospel to be false, one that indeeds falls under Paul's curse without question.

First let us consider your very own confession where you said:
Quote from: e.r.m. Sun Feb 18, 2018 - 11:28:45
is that from the Word is where seekers
It is impossible according to God's very own testimony for those dead in sins and  trespasses, who are at enmity against him and HIS WORD to seek God, UNTIL they are first, born of his Spirit, IMPOSSIBLE. Paul taught us in his doctrine which btw is just the opposite of what you believe and said above~consider Paul's doctrine:
Quote from: Paul the apostle, the teacher of the Gentiles
Romans 3:11~There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Paul taught us the opposite of what you and your cohorts believe, which obviously Paul's doctrine means not one thing to you and puts you and your friends on the side of those that teach another gospel other than the one Paul taught starting with man's INABILITY to understand and seek God BEFORE being given the gift of LIFE through Jesus' love of the truth and his perfect understanding and his pure heart seeking after God's word, which no man has by nature.

Man's state by nature is much worst than you folk want to accept and it is because of the gospel you have come to embrace. Paul in Romans 3 applies equally to Jews and Gentiles that which he charges upon the Gentiles in Ephesians 4:18 where he said these words:
Quote
"Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them because of the blindness (and HARDNESS we might add) of their hearts.
Yet you believe through sitting down with people who are at enmity against God, NOT just an enemy, but at WAR against him, that you can take God's word and reason with them and show them what THEY MUST DO to be saved from such hatred of him! Impossible! Apart from God FIRST changing their nature and giving them a new heart that can be taught to love and fear him.

What Paul said in Romans 3:11~ Is true of every individual of the human race naturally. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him. Paul said to the church at Corinth. In the parable of the sower, the radical distinction between those who reject, and those who receive the word and bring forth fruit, is, that they who were fruitful understood the word, while the others understood it not, Matthew 13:19-23, and the new man, he who is born again, is said to be renewed in knowledge, after the image of Him that created him. The assertion, then, in this passage, requires no limitation with respect to those who are now believers, for they were originally like others. All men are naturally ignorant of God, and by neglecting the one thing needful, show no understanding. Let us be honest....all outside of Jesus Christ acts more irrationally than the beasts. They DO NOT seek after God, no man does by nature, again, impossible.

To seek God is an expression frequently used in Scripture to denote the acts of religion and piety. It supposes the need all men have to go out of themselves to seek elsewhere their support, their life, and happiness. It teaches how great is the blindness of those who seek anything else but God, in order to be happy, since true wisdom consists in seeking God for this, for He alone is the sovereign good to man. It also teaches us that during the whole course of our life God proposes Himself as the object that men are to seek.

To seek God is, in general, to answer to all His relative perfections; that is to say, to respect and adore His sovereign majesty, to instruct ourselves in His word as the primary truth, to obey His commandments as the commandments of the sovereign Legislator of men, to have recourse to Him by prayer as the origin of all things. In particular, it is to have recourse to His mercy by repentance; it is to place our confidence in Him; it is to ask for his Holy Spirit to support us, and to implore His protection and blessing; and all this through Him who is the way to the father, and who declares that no man cometh to the Father but by Him.

By nature, this great spiritual act (of seeking God) is impossible for God's enemies to perform, and even for his children, we shamefully fall so short~And by that very fact proves that there is not one act of obeidence that a man can do before God will save him from their sins; it is ONLY by the perfect faith and obedience of Jesus Christ that will cause God to have mercy upon any sinner~and for those for whom Christ died for, in time he WILL....but only on the behalf of his Son's pertfect righteousness that secured this great act of forgiveness toward unwworthy sinners..... toward those given to Christ to be their propitation. 
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 05:24:05 by RB »

Online 4WD

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Re: The case for the Word of God being involved in conversion.
« Reply #287 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 05:46:49 »
RB, you said:
It is impossible according to God's very own testimony for those dead in sins and  trespasses, who are at enmity against him and HIS WORD to seek God, UNTIL they are first, born of his Spirit, IMPOSSIBLE.
Then you quoted Romans 3:11.  The problem here is that there is nothing in Romans 3:11 that says anything about first being born of His Spirit.  You inserted that quite on your own.  Paul did not say that.

The entire passage of Romans 3:9-20 concerns the universal sinfulness and hopelessness under law.  Paul's main point in the whole first section of Romans is to show that no one can be saved by law or law-keeping.  Only a perfect person can hope to be accepted by God under the law system.  The sad fact is that no such person exists [apart from Jesus, who is God in the flesh].  Every person is a law-breaker and is thus without hope under law.

In the first two main points of this section Paul dealt with the alleged exceptions to this rule: the Gentiles, or those without special revelation, God's Word, (Rom 1:18-32); and the Jews, or those who do have special revelation (Rom 2:1-3:8).  Now the final point (Rom 3:9-20) he pulls all this together and draws his intended conclusion.  He reaffirms the reality of universal sinfulness (v.9), provides OT confirmation of it (vv10-18) and stresses the impotence of law as the result of it (vv.19-20).

But nowhere in all of this does Paul say or even imply that one must be first born of God to read God' word, understand or seek salvation.  Paul's references here with respect to righteousness, understanding, seeking, doing good are all relative to the perfect keeping of law. i.e., no one is perfect as the law demands.  I would be happy to discuss each of these failures in perfection if you would like.  But I think I have made my point and Paul's point.

Again nothing here in Romans 3 [or in the whole of Romans] says anything about the need to first be born of God in order to read and understand what God has said in His written Word.

As a matter of fact Paul stated in Romans 1:18-21; 2:14-15 that God gives every human being sufficient knowledge of Himself and His law through general revelation, not specific written revelation, that they are without excuse.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21  For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

 
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 05:57:46 by 4WD »

 

     
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