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Author Topic: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden  (Read 10946 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 02:17:52 »
According to Gen 3, when God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden, he placed a Cherub at the entrance, with a flaming sword:

Gen 3:24   So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 
 

Ezekiel 28 tells us more about this cherub:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.


So, who is the anointed cherub which covereth the entrance to Eden?  The king of Tyrus?  The devil?  ???

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The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 02:17:52 »

Offline whirlwind

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 07:21:19 »
According to Gen 3, when God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden, he placed a Cherub at the entrance, with a flaming sword:

Gen 3:24   So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 
 

Ezekiel 28 tells us more about this cherub:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.


So, who is the anointed cherub which covereth the entrance to Eden?  The king of Tyrus?  The devil?  ???


The king of Tyrus is the devil but he was king before his rebellion from God....when he was still loved by God.  When we first see him in the garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve he was already in his fallen state so his reign was BEFORE this present age. 

The cherubim(s) (the KJ shows them in the plural) keeping "the way of the tree of life" aren't named.  As Michael is named as the angel of Israel I would assume he is one of them. 

I always saw that verse as the cherubim guarding against entry but now I understand that they are there to keep the path clear to the tree for those that seek Him.  He doesn't want us to stay away but to find Him. 



.

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 07:21:19 »

Saul 25

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 08:18:04 »
According to Gen 3, when God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden, he placed a Cherub at the entrance, with a flaming sword:

Gen 3:24   So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 
 

Ezekiel 28 tells us more about this cherub:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.


So, who is the anointed cherub which covereth the entrance to Eden?  The king of Tyrus?  The devil?  ???
The bible contains mysteries, therefore the mind of man produces many stories to fill in the gaps.  There was a cherub that God placed in the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve had sinned in order to keep them from returning to Eden and eating from the tree of Life.
  It is interesting that God would speak of a cherub in Eden that looks similar to the cherub that God placed in Eden to guard the tree of life.  If the scriptures had said,you were the cherub in Eden who guarded the tree of life then we would have positive identification,as it is the information is not clear.  It is an interesting question; did the cherub that God placed to guard the tree of life rebel later on and go with satan?

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 08:18:04 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 09:27:24 »
The cherub wasn't Satan to be sure.
I agree that they were placed there to keep Adam and Eve from returning to the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life.

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 09:27:24 »

Offline phoebe

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 07:33:31 »
Is the original word in Gen 3 singular or  plural?  Seems to me singular, but it is translated as plural.

Anyway, it will make for some interesting study.

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 07:33:31 »



Offline phoebe

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 08:06:48 »
I am in the process of getting ready to go in to town this morning, but this has interested me enough to pull out my GWT while doing so.  The first thing I noticed is my handwriting in the margin that says. "Satan in charge of guarding Adam & Eve".  I don't know when I wrote it, what I was studying or listening to, but this is obviously not a new idea to me.  But it seemed so this morning!  LOL! 

Anyway, my understanding on it at this time is that Satan was originally given charge over them, but was not the Cherubims of 3:24. 

I also think I agree with whirlwind who said "I always saw that verse as the cherubim guarding against entry but now I understand that they are there to keep the path clear to the tree for those that seek Him.  He doesn't want us to stay away but to find Him."

Guard the way TO the tree of life.  I now think if they were to keep Adam and Eve and all their descendants FROM it the wording would have been different.  Satan would want that way blocked, would he not?

 

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 08:06:48 »

blituri

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 08:15:48 »
God the Father still does not speak to the WORLD (Kosmos) or the WISE (gnostics).


Offline gospel

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 12:10:46 »
The cherub wasn't Satan to be sure.
I agree that they were placed there to keep Adam and Eve from returning to the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life.

Adam, Eve or anyone else for that matter.

Point being what Adam and Eve did affected everyone born of them, it was in fact their legacy passed on to successive generations.

Thought I'd just throw that little tid-bit in while I had the chance   ::lookaround::

blituri

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 14:03:44 »
Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold,
        the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
        and now, lest he put forth his hand,
          and take also of the tree of life,
          and eat, and live for ever
:

h2416 Chay appetite, wild beast, company, merry multitude, running, springing, troop
Living, opposed to the dead (Hades)

LEST he get access to the tree of life:

Gen. 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
        to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen. 3:24 So he drove out the man;
        and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
        and a flaming sword (Chereb) which turned every way,
        to keep the way of the tree of life.

Drove is  to CAST OUT H1644 gârash gaw-rash' A primitive root; to drive out from a possession; especially to expatriate or divorce:—cast up (out), divorced (woman), drive away (forth, out), expel, X surely put away, trouble, thrust out.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1644&t=KJV

Kerub Compound of a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3742&t=KJV

God granted Davd a TENT but solomon built Him a HOUSE: that put the presence of God, His Word and His Wisdom OFF LIMITS to all but the High Priest once a year.

KEEP was to keep Adam OUT of the garden LEST he have access.

Custōdĭa II. With the access. idea of hindering free motion, a watching, guarding, custody, restraint, confinement.

THEY GUARDED THE GARDEN LEST MAN GET ACCESS TO ETERNAL PHYSICAL LIFE.

When David sinned beyond redemption, God gave him an old Jebusite High Place to build his own tabernacle rather than let him be killed: This was God's condition for stopping the plague David put on the people for his own sins.

For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon. 1 Chronicles 21: 29

1 Chron 21:30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God:
      for he was afraid because of the sword (Chereb
      of the angel of the Lord. 3742

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 14:03:44 »

Offline phoebe

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 15:18:12 »
for piney (blituri):  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  (say it real fast)

But will we all not be able to take fruit from the tree's limbs in the "after-life"?  And be able to live forever with God?

"to keep the way"... sounds to me like it might be saying that "the way" to that tree is being protected for use at a future time...  And if it isn't going to be used, why not just destroy it, rather than risk it getting into the wrong hands?

Question:  Where do you find the idea that this "tree of life" is only physical life?


Offline candy

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 16:20:05 »
Thank you Phoebe for posing this question.  In my opinion it's not only the physical life that was guarded so Adam and Eve wouldn't obtain everlasting physical life, but it also was the spiritual life that the angels were guarding, maybe towards anyone who would want to obey God or at least confess their sins to God.  It seems like they (the angels) were guiding towards finding Jesus (eternal life) in the future.  Maybe the angels were holding the tree of life sacred for only those who will believe in the future.  Obviously, no sin of any kind can enter heaven or even earthly heaven (Eden).  That's why the Lord kicked out Adam and Eve in the first place.  We all know the way to eternal life is through Jesus.
Just my thoughts
Candy

Offline gospel

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 16:43:01 »
Thank you Phoebe for posing this question.  In my opinion it's not only the physical life that was guarded so Adam and Eve wouldn't obtain everlasting physical life, but it also was the spiritual life that the angels were guarding, maybe towards anyone who would want to obey God or at least confess their sins to God.  It seems like they (the angels) were guiding towards finding Jesus (eternal life) in the future.  Maybe the angels were holding the tree of life sacred for only those who will believe in the future.  Obviously, no sin of any kind can enter heaven or even earthly heaven (Eden).  That's why the Lord kicked out Adam and Eve in the first place.  We all know the way to eternal life is through Jesus.
Just my thoughts
Candy

The way I see it you are both correct, in fact The Tree of Life is Jesus
( John 14:6, John 11:5 The Life ) and that life is the same Eternal Life we know have access to

The tree was guarded because Fallen man lacking Righteousness, Right Standing before God could not be allowed to live eternally in his fallen state for if we were allowed to be such...
.... we would be in the same state as Satan, judged unto damnation, eternal rebels, eternally doomed and separated from God

Before man could be allowed to attain Eternal Life, God would first have to declare Him Holy, Righteous and Justified

Which is what He did through Christ Jesus,  who is The Life!




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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 17:37:20 »
gospel - Can you explain the connection you are trying to make with the Tree of Life and John 11:5?  'Cause I'm not gettin' it.    ::headscratch::


Offline gospel

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 17:50:36 »
gospel - Can you explain the connection you are trying to make with the Tree of Life and John 11:5?  'Cause I'm not gettin' it.    ::headscratch::



Opps sorry about that, it should have been John 11:25,

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies


 thanks for catching that!

Jesus said I AM LIFE

I'm just saying the Tree of Life is Jesus

blituri

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jun 15, 2010 - 18:35:54 »
There are always TWO of everything: Jesus warned that the mysteries had been hidden in parable from the foundation of the world.  That is because the EVIL THREAD could not grasp the SPIRITUAL thread.  Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites by pointing to the mouth religion of rhetoric, singing and instrument playing.

Eve was the mother of all LIVING: She is ZOE who in all ancient and modern religion was the mother of the gods.  She was the mother of Cain who was "of that evil one" and Paul affirms that Eve was wholly seduced in the way a young groom gets seconds.  Cain which means "from a musical note" was the father of the EVIL LAMECH thread. The godly Lamech family produced Noah.

I look up words: I know people just hate that legalistic jumk.

H2416 chay khah'ee From H2421 ; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

I thought it was simple when it is said LEST HE TAKE OF THE TREE of life and LIVE forever, that means he would not DIE.

LEST he get access to the tre God DROVE or CAST HIM out so he COULD NOT get back in. That's what happened after the fall at Mount Sinai. That's what happened when the elders fired God and demanded a king so they could worship like the pagans: Good SHUT DOWN ACCESS in the temple. That's what happens when people don't love the truth (that which is written) and God sends them a strong delusion.

CUSTODY in latin means they HINDERED FREE MOTION. Unless you are a theologian that can never mean to GIVE FREE MOTION.

So, we find that the serpent is not a snake but well known in the "garden" them was a Musical Enchanter(ess).  Christ (Logos) identified HER as a singing and harp playing prostitue in the garden of Eden.

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

She also had harps.  Created or Bara can also mean to CAST DOWN.  The earth was vain and empty after it was CAST DOWN: not created out of nothing.  Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE which is the "halal" word   from which "lucifer" is derived and is translated as to play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute and prostitute

In Ezekiel 31 the Assyrians were the TALLEST TREE in Eden: (to fool the clergy)

Ezek 31:8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him:
        the fir trees were not like his boughs,
        and the chestnut trees were not like his branches;
        nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

    Fir: Berowsh (h1265) ber-osh'; of uncert. der.; a cypress tree;
            hence a lance or a musical instrument (as made of that wood): - fir (tree).

    Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: (ravaged)
            howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down. Zec.11:2

     THE SAME POWERS ARE ASCRIBED TO CAIN
   
     Cain is h7014 Qayuin the same as h7013

    H7013 qayin kah'-yin From H6969 in the original sense of fixity;
          a lance (as striking fast):—spear

    H6969 qûn koon A primitive root; to strike a musical note, that is, chant
            or wail (at a funeral):—lament, mourning woman.

Cain HANDLED musical instruments meaning WITHOUT AUTHORITY.

Ezek 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches:
      so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

That's why the direct command for the church in the wilderness was to READ the Word of God with "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" excluded. The same word outlaws "elevated form of speaking": a rhetorician is a hypocrite.

That is why EVERYONE is qualified to be a DISCIPLE (by direct command) and almost no one is qualified to be a teacher especially if he/she refused to teach "that which is written."

I'm gone.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jun 16, 2010 - 00:53:23 »
So, here's my thought...

Tyre was the most important Canaanite city.  The king of Tyrus represents all of the Canaanites, as their figurehead. And, the Canaanites literally were the people who were blocking the entrance of the Israelites into the promised land.  These are all historical facts.

But doesn't that mirror the Genesis story?  Man is expelled from the good and pleasant place he came from, and disallowed entrance back in there.  A guardian is set against his attempts to do so.

What do you think?

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 16, 2010 - 12:08:38 »
So, here's my thought...

Tyre was the most important Canaanite city.  The king of Tyrus represents all of the Canaanites, as their figurehead. And, the Canaanites literally were the people who were blocking the entrance of the Israelites into the promised land.  These are all historical facts.

But doesn't that mirror the Genesis story?  Man is expelled from the good and pleasant place he came from, and disallowed entrance back in there.  A guardian is set against his attempts to do so.

What do you think?

You know in light of Ezekiel 28 this is something to really consider because Satan definitely blocks the way to Jesus, The Tree of Life.  ::pondering::

Considering that True repentance, the repentance that makes all other repentance matter, is turning from the world to Jesus, renouncing the world and the god of this world and becoming a child of God through professing Faith in Christ Jesus...wow!

That is Interesting
 
Not saying I totally agree with your premise but it is definitely worth looking into  ::reading::

Thanks

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 16, 2010 - 12:58:53 »
According to Gen 3, when God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden, he placed a Cherub at the entrance, with a flaming sword:

Gen 3:24   So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 
 

Ezekiel 28 tells us more about this cherub:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.


So, who is the anointed cherub which covereth the entrance to Eden?  The king of Tyrus?  The devil?  ???


The king of Tyrus is the devil but he was king before his rebellion from God....when he was still loved by God.  When we first see him in the garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve he was already in his fallen state so his reign was BEFORE this present age. 

The cherubim(s) (the KJ shows them in the plural) keeping "the way of the tree of life" aren't named.  As Michael is named as the angel of Israel I would assume he is one of them. 

I always saw that verse as the cherubim guarding against entry but now I understand that they are there to keep the path clear to the tree for those that seek Him.  He doesn't want us to stay away but to find Him. 



Maybe somebody with expertise in Hebrew can confirm whether the "cherubims" related in the KJV rendition of Gen. 3:24 should actually be translated a such i.e. plural rather than singular. If plural, the verse might perhaps give a parallel picture of the way of life as typified by the mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant. That mercy seat bore two cherubs facing each other at both ends and over the very spot where the blood was sprinkled on the Day of Atonement -- blood essential to a right standing before God. Although there was no sword barring the way into the most Holy Place, death faced any who might attempt an unauthorized entry.

As for the prince/king of Tyrus (Ezek. 28) and the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14), they both seem to be "types" of the fallen heavenly cherub who rebelled against Divine authority.

canuck

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #18 on: Sun Mar 11, 2018 - 23:33:46 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh  -  I realize this comment is coming years later than your original post, but a short answer to your question would be...

YES, the devil is one of the cherubim guarding Eden's eastern entrance, and YES, Satan the cherub is also the "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:12.  The LXX shows Ezekiel 28:12 as the "PRINCE of Tyre", (archonta) - NOT the "KING of Tyre", as in other translations.  The first "prince of Tyre" (archonti) in Ezekiel 28:2 is a different individual, because the prince in Ezekiel 28:2 is described as a MAN (Ez. 28:2,9), and the second prince of Ezekiel 28:12 is described as the ANOINTED CHERUB (Ez. 28:14).  Two different princes entirely being discussed in those two sections.

You haven't asked for a longer answer to your question W_S, but in spite of that, you may still be interested in some of the following musings on this subject...


If Satan actually was set as one of the cherubim guarding Eden's entrance, why would God want to position this evil angel, an enemy of His, so near to the Tree of Life?  The answer to that might be found in the old proverb "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  God originated this idea long before in the Garden of Eden by having Satan be one of the two cherubim guarding Eden's entrance.  The other cherub beside him was Michael, the archangel (Jude 9), also "*ONE OF* THE CHIEF PRINCES", according to Daniel 10:13. 

Satan in his original state before the fall had been created as the other chief prince equal in power to Michael's position in the "divine council".  We can see examples of Michael and Satan squaring off with each other in scripture, as if they are equally ranked in power and might, such as Revelation 12:7 with the war in heaven, when Michael and the Dragon fought each other's forces.  We also have Michael in Jude 9 contending with the devil about the body of Moses. 

Although Michael, the chief prince / archangel was loyal to God and Satan was not, they both had their own different motives that made them guard the entrance to the Garden with equal intensity.  Satan did not want any humans to gain immortality in their wicked, fallen condition.  If they had, they would have outranked Satan, since he was destined to be destroyed, and He knew it, ever since God promised this victory over Satan to Eve. 

Michael desired to protect God's purposes for mankind's eternal life through Christ's sacrifice for sin, instead of mankind grabbing immortality for themselves without a righteous mediator.  For the eventual good of man, the fruit of the Tree of Life could not be eaten yet until they were made righteous FIRST.  THEN they could eat of the Tree, and eternal existence in a righteous state would yield a blessing, without producing the curse of eternal existence in a wicked state.

Phoebe's comment about this in reply #5, written in the margin of her Bible, was on the right track about Satan being one of the cherubs guarding Eden's entrance.  Canuck's comment was also correct about the TWO cherubim figures on top of the ark's mercy seat that represented the TWO actual cherubim God had originally created in the angelic hierarchy; (which two cherubim were Michael and the other chief prince who would become Satan).

It is easier to understand the identity of the "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:12 if one can see the connection with the "divine council" of angels that God created and spoke about in all of Psalms 82 - the "assembly of gods" in Ps. 82:1 (LXX).  Those members of God's divine council - "the gods" that fell - were to receive God's judgment (Ps. 82:1 & 7), at which time they would "die *LIKE* men, and fall like one of the PRINCES" (like the fall of Satan, one of the chief princes, who also happened to be that PRINCE of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12). 

Yes, Psalms 82:7 says it is possible for angels to die, similar to the death of mankind, because angels actually were created with their own type of flesh forms - the "celestial bodies" found in I Cor. 15:39-40.  This "celestial body" form was never intended to merge with the other "terrestrial" flesh-and-blood type forms of the daughters of men.  (This explains how the existence of UNCLEAN  SPIRITS came to be, when a righteous angel's type of "celestial body" chose to unite with the "terrestrial body" forms of the unrighteous daughters of men in their fallen state.  The hybrid children produced by these unions became the giants of Genesis 6:1-3, who were born with an "unclean spirit".  It was the same principle at work that Job 14:4 spoke about: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?  Not one."  A righteous angel who chose not to keep their first estate and "left their own habitation" in heaven (Jude 6) to marry an unrighteous daughter of fallen mankind could only bring forth progeny that were also unclean by association.  And in becoming "one flesh" with their human wife who was in a fallen state of unrighteousness, the righteous angel also became unclean as well: in other words, they became a "fallen" angel" who was righteous no longer: a devil.

But this digresses from your original point, W_S, which was to ask if the "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28 was also Satan.  He was.  This "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:12 was specifically described as being in Eden, the garden of God (as we do find Satan there tempting Eve), and was identified as being "the anointed cherub that covereth".  This "covering" action of the cherubim in heaven was represented by the two cherubs on top of the ark of the covenant, who "covered" the mercy seat (Ex. 25:18-20).  Satan, as he was originally created, was one of these two "covering" cherubs in heaven. 

What we see in Genesis 3 is not only the fall of mankind when they ate the forbidden fruit, but also the fall of Satan occurring there as well.  Whirlwind's comment #1 that Satan was ALREADY in his fallen state when he approached Eve is not correct; Satan's fall occurred at the same moment that Adam and Eve fell into sin.  The very first of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".  When Adam and Eve obeyed the serpent's urging to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they essentially took their allegiance and homage from God who had created them, and gave that homage and obedience to Satan instead:  their WORSHIP was given to another.  Just as we are told in Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"  In other words, fallen man's disobedient action was responsible for changing the "anointed cherub" into the devil by their one act of obedience to him.  We can't blame God for creating that evil creature, the devil.  Adam and Eve did it themselves by a single act of their freedom to choose.

In my recent post on the origin of devils and the divine council, I made the point that any originally-righteous angels of the divine council were transformed into a devil if that angel was tempted to receive human worship offered to them, and eventually DID ACCEPT that human worship.  What we are looking at in Genesis 3 is just the first one of those angelic transformations from a formerly-righteous cherub into a fallen cherub.

The "prince of Tyre's" description in Ezekiel 28:12 gives a brief biography of Satan's past glorious condition as an anointed cherub, and his simultaneous fall along with Adam and Eve, when "iniquity was found" in him.  In addition, not only did Satan the "prince of Tyre" fall from his righteous state in Eden, but Ezekiel 28:16 predicts that he will be cast out of the mountain of God, just as Revelation 12:7-10 said that the Dragon / Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels, once Christ the Lamb's blood had been presented in heaven.  Also, the location for his eventual destruction is ON THE EARTH - not in heaven - since this cast-out prince is also called "the prince of THIS WORLD" in John 12:31.

Ezekiel 28:17-19 described how God would finally destroy Satan, the anointed cherub, the "prince of Tyre".

verse #17  -  "...I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings that they may behold thee."  (I believe this is Satan the Dragon being "cast out of heaven to the earth" after Christ's ascension - John 12:31 compared with Revelation 12:7-13.  Eventually in the AD 70 era, Satan would be imprisoned with the "kings of the earth", which were the collection of high priests present in the city of Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 conflict.  This joint imprisonment of the "kings of the earth" and the "host of the high ones that are on high" was spoken about in Isaiah 24:21-23 compared to Revelation 18:2, when every unclean spirit was to be imprisoned within Babylon's / Jerusalem's walls.)

verse #18  -  "...Therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee.  IT SHALL DEVOUR THEE, and I will BRING THEE TO *ASHES* UPON THE EARTH in the sight of all of them that behold thee."  (As a righteous cherub, Satan once walked up and down among the stones of fire in heaven without harm, but in his fallen state, God's fire would devour him, and his "celestial" flesh form would turn to ashes.  These ashes would then be trodden underfoot on "the great and dreadful Day of the Lord", as Malachi foretold in Mal. 4:3,5.)

verse #19  -  "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee" ("the people" term is usually OT ethnic Israel being spoken about).  "Thou shalt be a terror, AND NEVER SHALT THOU *BE* ANYMORE."  (This is Satan's final demise.  In Revelation 20:10, Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire / the "furnace of fire in Jerusalem" where the "kings of the earth" / the high priests were also already imprisoned.  Because these "kings" / high priests were part of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17, these "kings" / high priests had been thrown "ALIVE" into the Lake of Fire, as Revelation 19:20 tells us (the Lake of Fire being the "furnace of fire" in Jerusalem in the AD 70 era).

This death of Satan, the "prince of Tyre" is even more definitely expressed in the LXX version of Ezekiel 28:19 than in the KJV.  In this version of the phrase, it says "...thou art gone to destruction, and THOU SHALT NOT EXIST ANYMORE."  We have this same idea of Satan, his demons, and the high priests all being imprisoned together in Jerusalem in Isaiah 24:21-23.  It says there that "After many days" of their imprisonment in Jerusalem, (which would last from AD 66-70), these would all be "found wanting" (as the KJV margin renders this), which means they would all be GONE.  Since these "kings of the earth" / high priests were to be imprisoned together in Jerusalem along with the demonic "host of the high ones that are on high" (the host of the evil divine council leaders) when they would all be "found wanting" or GONE at the close of this period; and since THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY HIGH PRIESTS "KINGS OF THE EARTH" in Jerusalem since the endof AD 70, then that tells us there haven't been any of the punished demonic "host of the high ones" around since then either. 

W_S, there's one other thing. Remember, we can't confuse the "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:2 (who is called a MAN in Ezekiel 28:2, 9-10 who would "die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers") with the OTHER "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:12, (who is Satan, destined to be devoured by fire and reduced to ashes).  The one "prince of Tyre" was the egotistical HUMAN prince of the city of Tyre, and the other prince was the member of the "divine council" (in this case, Satan) who was operating in that city, accepting their idolatrous worship and "defiling thy sanctuaries in the city of Tyre (Ez. 28:18) by corrupted human worship in those sanctuaries. 

The question would be, "Why was it so significant that Tyre in particular be the city where Satan used his manifold evil skills to corrupt that one city of Tyre above all others?"  Part of the answer to that question was your observation, W_S, that Tyre was the central hub of Canaanite trade on the coast, both the suburbs of Tyre on the mainland and the island city of Tyre just off shore.  The list of nations and cities trading at Tyre is quite an exensive one in Ezekiel 27.  Satan would have had ample opportunity as the divine council "prince of Tyre" to corrupt many nations by their trading and associations with Tyre and its idolatrous worship. 

Moreover, one of Tyre's kings, Hiram, was once a great "lover of David" the king  (I Kings 5:1), and did his utmost to help David's son Solomon with labor and materials for the construction of the temple.  As I have written elsewhere on this forum, when the foundation stone for Solomon's temple was laid, this started the millennium period of Rev. 20.   It lasted from 967 BC until AD 33 and the First Resurrection, when Christ became the foundation stone of the True Temple made without hands.  During this literal 1,000-year millennium of a physical temple worship system, the level of deception Satan could use over the nations was restricted  by the splendor of Solomon's kingdom spreading the knowledge of Israel's God throughout the nations, and also by the ministry of the OT prophets spreading the word of God by their spoken or written words. 

Under Hiram the king, it was Tyre's assistance of King Solomon that helped jump-start those millennium restrictions placed on Satan's deceptive activity.  Satan would have resented Tyre's assistance of Solomon.  Why else would he desire to corrupt the city of Tyre totally except in retaliation for Hiram helping Solomon build the temple which began the thousand years of chained restriction on his own deception of the nations?  If he could corrupt the city of Tyre totally by his influence as the divine council "prince of Tyre", he must have thought his goal of deceiving the nations could be back on track again.

The good relations between Israel in Solomon's days and the city of Tyre under Hiram's rule did not last long.  It deteriorated once Jezebel, the idol-worshipping princess from Tyre, married Ahab, king of the Northern kingdom of Israel.  Satan's influence as the "prince of Tyre" would extend through Jezebel's Tyrian bckground of idolatry to corrupt all the Northern kingdom of Israel, which had not a single righteous ruler in its history. 

In addition, there was another reason Satan worked to exert his influence over Tyre.  It was because the infamous Tyrian shekel minted in the city of Tyre would later on be used to corrupt worship in the temple of Jerusalem.  The high priests started requiring this coin, with its pagan image of the demi-god Herakles, to be the only acceptable temple currency for payment of the annual Temple Tax and all purchases and sales of sacrificial animals.  These Tyrian shekel coins, (the mark imposed by the Judean Land Beast in Revelation 13 on all those in the land of Israel), were originally minted in the city of Tyre where this "chief prince", Satan the corrupted cherub and archangel, had exercised his considerable influence for evil, as much as he was permitted by God.


Just to give a synopsis, we can take away quite a few enlightening facts from a study of one of the cherubs in Eden being equal to the Ezekiel 28:12 "prince of Tyre".

#1)  -  Satan and Michael, even with opposite motives, were both set up as the cherubim to guard the way to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

#2)  -  As an originally-righteous "chief prince" of the divine council, Satan fell into his sinful condition when Adam and Eve obeyed him in the Garden of Eden instead of obeying God.  This turned him into the devil, when Adam and Eve "worshipped and served the CREATURE more than the CREATOR" and essentially made an idol of him by their act of disobedience.

#3)  -  As part of the divine council, Satan, the "prince of Tyre" exerted his evil influence on the human "prince of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:2 and on the city itself to produce long-term corruption of Tyre and the nations which associated and traded with this wealthy city.

#4)  -  Satan, as the "prince of Tyre", had a celestial body form which would be destroyed by a devouring fire that would turn him into ashes underfoot in the Day of the Lord's judgment, never to exist anymore after that.  Satan was a being capable of being completely destroyed on earth.

#5)  -  This destruction of Satan the "chief prince" and all the evil divine council "host of the high ones that are on high" would occur at the same time when the high priesthood "kings of the earth" were imprisoned together with them in Jerusalem.  After that time, they would all be "found wanting", or GONE from the earth.  Since all these imprisoned ones were to be destroyed together, then Satan and his fallen angels have been destroyed already, since the high priesthood "kings of the earth" in Israel came to an end by the close of the AD 70 era.


Okay, Wycliffes_Shillelagh, I'm sure all this above is probably more than you were wanting to wade through all at once.  If you have time to skim through it and happen to notice any glaring inconsistencies, perhaps you could let me know where they are.  Just thinking out loud on this subject...   

     


 


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #19 on: Thu Mar 15, 2018 - 18:40:06 »
Thank you for the thought out response.  I've read it a couple times, but I'm not quite sure where/how to go about discussing it.

I don't agree with all of what you said, but you seem to be more similar in understanding to me, than... well, anyone else I've talked to about it (admittedly a short list).

There is some history and archaeology I'd like to drag into it, and then some speculation on my part.  I'm not sure either of those carries any weight here, though, so perhaps I will refrain.  I should like more solid footing before taking a stand, I suppose.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #20 on: Thu Mar 15, 2018 - 19:34:17 »
The teachings of Pythagoras [Jesus did not pray for this Kosmos] also speak of the hierarchies of the heavenly host as numbered and expressed in numbers. Vach is equivalent, in some aspects, to Isis, Aditi, mulaprakriti, the waters of space, chaos, and the Qabbalistic Sephirah.

Lucifer is well documented in the Greek Literature:

    Lucifer (Latin) Light-bringer [cf Greek Phosphoros; or Eosphoros dawn-bringer]; the planet Venus, the morning star. Lucifer is light bringer to earth, not only physically as the brightest of the planets, but in a mystical sense also. In mysticism he is the chief of those minor powers or logoi who are said to rebel against high heaven and to be cast down to the bottomless pit -- the so-called war in heaven and the fall of the angels.

Sarasvati, the goddess of divine wisdom, is a later form of Vach. The Hebrew Lahgash is nearly identical in meaning with Vach as the hidden power of the mantras, the divine sound. "But Vach being also spoken of as the daughter of Daksha -- 'the god who lives in all the Kalpas' -- her Mayavic character is thereby shown: during the pralaya she disappears, absorbed in the one, all-devouring Ray"

The Word Halal as the "praise word" most often meant to make self vile believing that God could not hurt the MAD..
The word LUCIFER

g1984. halal, haw-lal´; a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify:—(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(-ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.

H1966.  heylel, hay-lale´; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—lucifer.

Venus is also ZOE or EVE as the mediatrix of goddess worshipers.

God turned the Israelites at Mount Sinai over to worship the starry host (Acts 7).  The prophets repudiate the worship of the Sun, Moon and known planets who represented the REAL HEROS who were worshipped after their death--like saints.  The SERVICE of the Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned tribe of Levi (Genesis 49) where Jacob warns NOT to enter into covenant or attend thee synagogues of LEVI.






Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #21 on: Thu Mar 15, 2018 - 21:24:13 »
Let's give this a try...

I created this thread some 8 years ago.  I've learned a bit since then (or I like to think so).

I was of course taught from grade school up through seminary that Genesis is literal, and Ezekiel is one of those crazy prophets that uses a lot of symbols we ought to somehow wrest into something relevant to the 21st century. ::vomit::

My current view is precisely the opposite.  I believe Genesis' account of Adam and the garden is an apocryphon.  The prophet Ezekiel, in the originally quoted passage, and elsewhere throughout his book, makes reference to this apocryphon, in a wholly literal fashion.  While Ezekiel's purpose in writing is not to interpret Genesis for us, he nonetheless gives the significations of much of what is there. 

Gan Eden is the Forest of Lebanon
Each tree in Eden represents a king and by extension everyone under the umbrella of his empire
The Assyrian king is the "tallest tree" in Eden
The prince of Tyre is the angel that prevents them re-entering

These aren't speculation.  Ezekiel literally says these things.

I apply them to the Genesis story via simple substitution and something emerges.

There were two trees kings in the midst of the garden the forest of Lebanon.  Adam (interpretation not given, but clearly the progenitor of the Hebrews) was forbidden from associating with one of them.  He did anyway.  For this offense, he was expelled from the garden the forest of LebanonA guardian angel The Tyrian prince prevented him from returning to his former place.

That starts to look an awful lot like regular old history.  In the 16th-15th centuries BC, in the region in question, the Mittani empire was born from a mixed race of Hurrians and Amurru, briefly conquered Assyria, made some of the Canaanite cities its vassals, and then promptly imploded.  It was overtaken by a resurgent Assyrian empire in its homeland, while the Hittites took lands at the west, and the Egyptians reclaimed the Canaanite vassals.  It would seem that "Adam" threw his lot in with the losing side in the conflict, and ended up removed from his homeland.  The Tyrian vassal-king was charged with keeping him out.

There is more, but that's a good enough starting place.

As for the pagan gods (which do not actually exist, of course), they are only connected tenuously to what appears to be real historical events.  Deification of kings was a common practice, and it appears that the Tyrian prince was so deified as "light-bringer."  If one studies history, one can also find what group had the tree of life for its crest, which were engaged in serpent-worship and mystery cults, and who bears names as Kain and Seti.

Jarrod

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #22 on: Thu Mar 15, 2018 - 21:49:06 »
Quote
Gan Eden is the Forest of Lebanon
Each tree in Eden represents a king and by extension everyone under the umbrella of his empire
The Assyrian king is the "tallest tree" in Eden
The prince of Tyre is the angel that prevents them re-entering

These aren't speculation.  Ezekiel literally says these things
.

That is the absolute truth: How do I know? The Bible Tells me so.

The prophets undoubtedly intend that Kings of Tyre or Babylon are the LITERAL enemies of God.

It seems clear that when God sentenced the idolaters at Mount Sinai back to BABYLON, Moses wrote and inverted version of clay tablets telling the story of Sumer which fits the B.C. 4000 date or (5500) in the Septuagint.
The "towers of Babylon" enslaved people and the superstitious seventh day was when the serfs brought their tithes to the ziggurat.
However, Moses wrote of a righteous God who created mankind to serve THEM and give them a REST day which was not a ritualistic worship day.

Matt. 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see;
        and your ears, for they hear.
Matt. 13:17 For verily I say unto you,
        that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see,
        and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.

Matt. 13:34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the MULTITUDES;
        and WITHOUT a parable spake he NOTHING unto them:
Matt. 13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet,
        saying, I will open my mouth in parables;
        I will utter things hidden from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
Matt. 13:36 Then he left the multitudes,
        and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
        Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Theologians deprive people of the large body of literature beginning with clay tablets.  Clay tablets define the Genesis story from the viewpoint of the Civil-Military-Clergy: both the sabbath as "worship" to give the GOD'S REST and the tithe is Babylonian. After all God turned the Israelites at Mount Sinai who repeated the Egyptian-Canaanite-Greek-Babylon rituals over TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST and sent them back where they originated as robbers of caravans

Job, as a very old document, defines the Creation and calls it a parable. When preachers make up a hypothetical situation they don't expect to be fact-Checked.   Hesperous is Lucifer and Ovid and others speak of apples and serpents.

Paul didn't have anything good to say about Eve.





Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #23 on: Fri Mar 16, 2018 - 10:43:07 »
The prophets undoubtedly intend that Kings of Tyre or Babylon are the LITERAL enemies of God.
Can a grape vine be the enemy of the gardener?

In Ezekiel & Genesis, kings are but trees in God's garden.  God planted them there, He prunes them, and He can/does chop them down.

I have several grape vines, and while most of them are pretty well trained, there is one that keeps putting out long tendrils, trying to take over the vines on either side of it.  That vine is an enemy of its fellow vines, but when I took the clippers to it last Saturday, it didn't offer me much resistance. ::wink::

(To be fair, that vine is a different species from the others, and I think I might be pruning it wrong, as it grows faster than the others, but gives hardly any grapes.)

Jarrod

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #24 on: Fri Mar 16, 2018 - 11:03:44 »
Is. 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard.
        My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Is. 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine,
        and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein:
        and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Is. 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and MY vineyard.
Is. 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard,
        that I have not done in it? wherefore,
        when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Is. 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard
        I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up;
        and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Is. 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged;
        but there shall come up briers and thorns:
        I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Is. 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
        and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:
        and he looked for judgment,
        but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.[/
size]

WILD TURKEYS ALWAYS GOT MY GRAPES A DAY BEFORE I PLANNED TO EAT A FEW.  SO MY WIFE FED THEM WITH "ROUNDUP"

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden
« Reply #25 on: Fri Mar 16, 2018 - 20:10:22 »
I usually put bird netting over mine.  Don't know if that works on turkeys, though.

Last year we had some new nasties - some pretty flying bugs that eat the leaves.  Grape leaf skeletonizers the fellow at the nursery said.  Look like tiny dragonflies with black racing stripes.

 

     
anything