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Offline Reformer

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“Replacement Theology” - #2
« on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 15:34:01 »

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
__________________

“Replacement Theology”—or New
Israel vs. Church #2

    There is room for doubt that God sponsored or established the formation of National Israel in 1948, for it was prophesied long ago that the Jews would be scattered all over the earth. Even Jesus said the Jews would be scattered “to all the nations” [Luke 21:24]. Why did God scatter them? Because of their persistent, long-term rebellion.

    Secondly, God has not forsaken Jews or Gentiles. He wants all of them to come to His Son for deliverance and salvation. Romans 11 seems to teach that a day is coming—assuming it hasn’t come and gone—when Jews in large numbers will accept Jesus as their Messiah. When that happens, they, too, will be grafted in and become part of the one body of believers and part of God’s holy nation. “And if they [Jews] do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” [Rom. 11:23]. Until then, they remain separated from God.

    Ungrafted Jews are not God’s chosen people. Ungrafted Gentiles are not God’s chosen people. I think you will agree that unregenerated Gentiles are not God’s elect. Then why is it so difficult to believe that unregenerated Jews are not God’s elect?
 
    At one time in history, Old Israel was God’s elected nation and chosen people, as the scriptures confirm. And as the apostle notes, the Jewish people “are loved on account of the patriarchs,” for they were once children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in this grace era, the only children of Abraham are redeemed sinners or the household of faith. Listen to Paul again:

    “In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring” [Rom. 9:6-9]. Then again, “A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly...No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly” [Rom. 2:28-29].

    There’s no way to avoid the reality of Paul’s testimony. God no longer recognizes natural Jews and National Israel as His elected nation and chosen people. “Israel” is still God’s elected nation, but not Old Israel. It is New Israel, the redeemed community. If you still entertain doubts, listen to Paul again. “Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience” [Colossians 3:12 & 1 Peter 2:9].

    But in reference to Romans 11, one school of thought is that a large segment of Jews are God’s elect in prospect or promise. I offer no argument against this if we agree that a large segment of Gentiles are also God’s elect in prospect or promise. There are many people out there in this wide world—both Jews and Gentiles—who are God’s children in prospect or promise, but currently not His children in reality. Jesus Himself recognized this truth. Read it in John 10:15-16.

    Under the Old Covenant, Jews became part of God’s kingdom or reign through the act of being born of Jewish parents and physical circumcision. This identified them and set them apart from the nations around them. Under the New Covenant, Jews become part of God’s new reign by being spiritually born and through the act of circumcision of the heart [Phil. 3:3]. Until then, they are not God’s chosen people.

    There’s not a National country on earth that constitutes God’s “holy nation”—not National Israel, not America, not any country. Only those who have been regenerated compose God’s holy nation. “But you [Christian believers] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” [1 Peter 2:9].

    To claim that the nation of Israel today—a nation made up largely of agnostics—is God’s holy nation and His elect, is, in my opinion, an explicit contradiction of heaven’s testimony. Surely God does not consider a nation of agnostics His elect! Yes, under the Old Covenant, Israel was God’s holy nation. There’s no argument here. But under Jesus, only those who have been born anew compose God’s holy nation.

Offline Reformer

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 15:37:43 »
MODERATOR JARROD:

    Again, I tried to post this #2 in the Theology section, but received the same message, "You are not allowed to access this section." Please move this post to the Theology compartment.

Thanks,

Buff

Offline fish153

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 22:40:34 »
Buff—-

There is something very important to consider. Something happened which CANNOT be coincidence, unless one just does not want to consider or believe in a real way.

Consider this: 70 A.D.— the Temple is destroyed and the Jews are dispersed throughout the world (over time of course).
                     70 A.D.— the Essenes(Jewish scribes) hide MANY “sacred” scrolls in caves as a result of the Romans sacking Jerusalem.

For 2000 years the Jews yearn for a homeland. After all God has Promised He will one day restore Israel to their land. During 1939-1945 an effort is made by Satan to destroy the Jews. 6 million are murdered. Why? He is attempting to thwart God’s plan of the Jews returning to their homeland. Again, why? Because when the Jews accept their Messiah (Jesus) Satan KNOWS he is finished. Satan knows what prophecy says. He isn’t stupid.

But what happened? After 2000 years Israel becomes a nation again in 1948. Impossible. But it happened—- even after 6 million of them were murdered. 3 years after the end of World War 2 Israel becomes a nation in a day. (May 14 1948).  Think——dispersion in 70 AD and re-gathering in 1948.

Now—-consider this “coincidence” seriously. What ALSO happened in this same time-frame? In 1947 a shepherd boy throws a rock into a cave and hears a breaking sound. Incredibly, he has found scrolls in jars that have remained “hidden” just inside this cave for 2000 YEARS! Now think carefully—-hidden in 70 AD (when Israel was dispersed) and found in 1947– just ONE YEAR before the birth of Israel!

Later it will be discovered that the DEAD SEA SCROLLS were hidden in several caves until 1947. Now imagine that for a moment: these scrolls sat just inside the openings of caves for 2000 YEARS and no one ever stumbled upon them in ALL THAT TIME. Seriously?? For 2000 years. Was this pure COINCIDENCE, or were these scrolls protected by GOD until HE DECIDED they should be found, when Israel was to be re-born?

These scrolls PROVE that the Jewish scriptures HAVE NOT CHANGED for 2000 years. And they were found one year before Israel was restored as a nation. Coincidence? I THINK NOT. ISRAEL is to play a VERY IMPORTANT ROLE in end time prophecy—- and we are EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED TO SEE IT HAPPENING. To state that Israel is unimportant is to ignore God Himself, His Word, and His faithfulness to fulfill His promises.


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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 22:40:34 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 23:17:47 »
fish153:

   The history you have covered above is quite interesting, and I have delved into all of it from time to time. My only reply to what you have written is that Israel still exists, and always will exist as long as time exists. Israel exists today in the anatomy of the redeemed community, commonly called "the church." There are NOT two Israels, the Old and the New. There is only one, the community of the redeemed.

    "Church," of course, as I have pointed out numerous times, is not a correct translation of the Greek ekklesia. This Greek term accurately translates our English congregation, assembly, community, or the "called out ones." But never "church."

    Consequently, it is proper to say Israel exists today in the anatomy of the assembly of the redeemed, assembly of the firstborn, the grace community, or the congregation of the saved. None of these are proper terms, however, like "Baptist Church," "Methodist Church," and so on.

Goodnight,

Buff

 
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 23:22:01 by Reformer »

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 10, 2021 - 23:17:47 »
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Offline johntwayne

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jun 11, 2021 - 02:45:03 »
fish153:

   The history you have covered above is quite interesting, and I have delved into all of it from time to time. My only reply to what you have written is that Israel still exists, and always will exist as long as time exists. Israel exists today in the anatomy of the redeemed community, commonly called "the church." There are NOT two Israels, the Old and the New. There is only one, the community of the redeemed.

    "Church," of course, as I have pointed out numerous times, is not a correct translation of the Greek ekklesia. This Greek term accurately translates our English congregation, assembly, community, or the "called out ones." But never "church."

    Consequently, it is proper to say Israel exists today in the anatomy of the assembly of the redeemed, assembly of the firstborn, the grace community, or the congregation of the saved. None of these are proper terms, however, like "Baptist Church," "Methodist Church," and so on.

Goodnight,

Buff


"Church" is a perfectly good word and good translation of the original Greek. It refers to the people of God. I trust the translators more than you Buff.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jun 11, 2021 - 02:45:03 »



Offline Reformer

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jun 11, 2021 - 18:31:35 »
johntwayne:

    " 'Church' is a perfectly good word and good translation of the original Greek. It refers to the people of God. I trust the translators more than you, Buff."

    I'm a little surprised and disappointed with and in you, brother. But at least you agree with old King James of England, for he placed a "church" under Moses. Listen to him.

    "This is he [Moses] that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers" [Acts 7:38].

    If I understand your doctrinal agenda correctly, you teach that Jesus Christ and His apostles founded the church. Oh, but that can't be factual, my brother, because Moses had a church long before Jesus founded one! Well, I'll leave the puzzle for you to put together. Good luck.

Kindly,

Buff

P. S. Do you trust King James more than the Greek and Hebrew languages? Only wondering.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jun 11, 2021 - 18:31:35 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 04:49:54 »
Buff, you insist that the Greek word ἐκκλησία [ekklēsia] cannot rightly be translated "church" but must instead be "assembly", "congregation", "gathering" or some other such interpretation.  That doesn't change your objection to what you claim to be a conflict between Matthew 16:18 and Acts 7:38.  It is the same Greek word in both verses, no matter the choice of the English word in translation.

The problem is not the English word "church" or the Greek word ἐκκλησία [ekklēsia]; rather the problem is your faulty interpretation of the English word "church".

Offline Reformer

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 13:12:12 »
4WD:

    "The problem is not the English word 'church' or the Greek word ἐκκλησία [ekklēsia]; rather, the problem is your faulty interpretation of the English word 'church' "

    A misnomer, brother. How can I have a "faulty interpretation of the English word 'church' " when it is not a translation of any Greek or Hebrew term, just as our English "Easter" [Acts 12:4, KJV] is a total mistranslation and not accurately represented by any Greek or Hebrew term? So allow me to revise your statement and apply the modification to its author, 4WD.

     "The problem is not the English word 'Easter' or the Greek word 'pascha'; rather, the problem is your faulty interpretation of the English word 'Easter.' " What goes around comes around!

   You can preach "until the cows come home" that Moses had a "church" before our Lord founded His "church," but the results of your proclamation will return empty-handed, factually wise.

    Anyway, until you answer my two questions on Jonah's three days in the whale and our Lord's three days in the tomb, your "ramblings" will not entertain me or attract my attention.

Have  a Good Churchy Weekend,

Buff


« Last Edit: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 13:19:00 by Reformer »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 13:26:36 »
Buff, Church just means assembly and Moses certainly had an assembly in the wilderness.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 13:26:36 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 13:38:53 »
4WD can have a "churchy weekend" and Buff can have a great weekend avoiding the assembly.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 15:01:22 »
Texas Conservative:

"4WD can have a 'churchy weekend' and Buff can have a great weekend avoiding the assembly."

    Considering you and 4WD's replies, I would need to flip a coin to decide whether or not to attend either of your "church sessions!"

    The bottom line is, and always will be, "church" is a complete misrepresentation and mistranslation of the Greek ekklesia, just as "Easter" is a misnomer of the Greek pascha. If one is a boo-boo, so is the other. If one is a fallacy, so is the other.

    Moses indeed had an assembly in the wilderness. But he did not have a "church." The children of Israel celebrated the Jewish Passover. But they did not celebrate "Easter." Clearer words were never spoken through false teeth!

Buff

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 15:47:47 »
Buff, Church just means assembly and Moses certainly had an assembly in the wilderness.
John, with all respect to you for your love of the scriptures, the word church truly means: "all those who have been called out by God and joined together in His family; the body of Christ"~and yes, in this sense there WAS a church in the wilderness.
Quote from: Stephen
Acts 7:38~This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
Jesus used the word CHURCH more than once in his teachings. Not sure why Buff has such an aversion toward the word CHURCH.

Offline 4WD

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 15:56:30 »

    "The problem is not the English word 'church' or the Greek word ἐκκλησία [ekklēsia]; rather, the problem is your faulty interpretation of the English word 'church' "

    A misnomer, brother. How can I have a "faulty interpretation of the English word 'church' " when it is not a translation of any Greek or Hebrew term
Neither are the words baptize or baptism; but I doubt that you have a serious problem with those.  And I didn't say anything about the translation from Greek; I said the problem is your interpretation of the English word "church".

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 16:02:12 »
Texas Conservative:

"4WD can have a 'churchy weekend' and Buff can have a great weekend avoiding the assembly."

    Considering you and 4WD's replies, I would need to flip a coin to decide whether or not to attend either of your "church sessions!"
I wouldn't have to flip a coin to decide whether to attend any of your sessions.  If I were to attend a "house" session, I would probably choose my own and invite others that I thought might benefit from gathering together.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 16:07:12 »
John, with all respect to you for your love of the scriptures, the word church truly means: "all those who have been called out by God and joined together in His family; the body of Christ"~and yes, in this sense there WAS a church in the wilderness. Jesus used the word CHURCH more than once in his teachings. Not sure why Buff has such an aversion toward the word CHURCH.
You are correct in the meaning of the word church.  But incorrect on Jesus' use of the word church; the word Jesus used was the Greek word "ekklesia".

Offline Alan

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 17:02:20 »


    Anyway, until you answer my two questions on Jonah's three days in the whale and our Lord's three days in the tomb, your "ramblings" will not entertain me or attract my attention.



Hahaha, how many more times will you say that before your attention becomes unattracted?  ::crackup::

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jun 12, 2021 - 20:33:05 »
Anyway, until you answer my two questions on Jonah's three days in the whale and our Lord's three days in the tomb, your "ramblings" will not entertain me or attract my attention.
Buff, you act as if I cared about that.

Offline fish153

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jun 13, 2021 - 14:29:07 »
I was reading Isaac Newton's writings about Daniel and Revelation. He makes an interesting comment about the Jews. He says WE KNOW the Jews will return to their homeland (he wrote this in the late 1600's. We just don't know WHEN. He then sites about 50 Scriptures foretelling the return of the Jews to their homeland.

He says he doesn't know HOW this could possibly happen but that it WILL happen. He states that perhaps a nation friendly to the Jews will help open the door for their return. Of course, we know that Great Britain helped immensely towards partitioning land for the Jews and they DID return to create a new nation in 1948.

To miss this is to be as blind as the Pharisees about Jesus' FIRST coming. They did not know prophecy well enough to identify Jesus as the Messiah. And in like manner there are those who SHOULD be looking in amazement at the return of Israel, but who deny they matter. They do not know prophecy, and the myriad verses pointing to the return of the Jews to their homeland!

Instead of rejoicing in great praise to God, instead, they deny Israel is a work of God at all!! How incredibly sad this is!!

Israel is a SURE sign that Christ will be returning soon. We don't know when, but we need to be watching, and greatly rejoicing that we are privileged to live when God has fulfilled one of the greatest promises he has made in the Old Testament. WE ARE ALIVE TO SEE IT!  Praise God forcthat wonderful privilege!!

Offline RB

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jun 13, 2021 - 15:18:50 »
I was reading Isaac Newton's writings about Daniel and Revelation.
Was a brilliant man~Newton's left a legacy that few can match:  Invented the reflecting telescope. The standard telescope of Newton's time, the refracting telescope, was not ideal. ...Proposed new theory of light and color. ...Discovered calculus. ...Developed three laws of motion. ...Devised law of universal gravitation. ...
Advanced early modern chemistry just to name some that we know.

Yet that does not translate in understanding the scriptures sad to say. 1st Corinthians 1.

Fish, have you read any of his views concerning the Trinty?  He totally rejected Jesus was God manifest in the flesh! Maybe you would want to read more on him before using him as a support for Israel being promised by God the earthly land in the middle east AS THEIR INHERITANCE~when even Abraham never did. I'll go with Abraham.
Quote
Hebrews 11:16~"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Which is NOT of this world!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 18:36~Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Very plain to any unbias person and to all lovers of the truth.

To add more~he rejected the Devil as an evil spirit, and demons, etc. The list is long. He was a Sadducees in doctrine concerning some of his understanding. Read for yourself~there's much more to see before endorsing him...you just might want to pull back your support. 

Offline fish153

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jun 13, 2021 - 18:46:30 »
Red---
Thanks. I will read up on him more. However, many preachers and teachers believed/believe Israel would definitely become a nation again shortly before the return of Christ. C.H. Spurgeon went so far as saying that Israel would be re-born, but in an unbelieving mode (as they are today).

Many good teachers see that God promised this quite clearly in the Scriptures. Paul even says not to "boast" about being grafted into the tree. To state that Israel is not put there by God's providential hand is great foolishness indeed.

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jun 13, 2021 - 18:52:49 »
Even Sir Isaac Newton thought Israel would be restored as a nation because of Bible prohecy. He said the manner of how it happens, I know not, let time be the interpreter. This was back in the 1700s.

Offline RB

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 04:57:30 »
Even Sir Isaac Newton thought Israel would be restored as a nation because of Bible prohecy. He said the manner of how it happens, I know not, let time be the interpreter. This was back in the 1700s.
 ::juggle::
Jaime~actually it was a a very common teachings even in the days of the Reformers~read Calvin and Luther (who rejected the teaching, yet he speaks of it) But, the teaching then and now has evolved to include many heresies that are connected with such a belief. It comes mostly I believe through Catholicism that teaches:
“That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery.”
They have a rat hole to climb into with every heresy that flows from their mouths!

That is NOT the mystery that Paul spoke of in Romans 11! The blinded in part was in THAT GENERATION (for the most part, yet still remain with many in our days) during the time of the true biblical reformation of going from the OT worship of the Jews to The Religion of JESUS CHRIST~there were many regenerate natural branches yet UNCONVERTED to the religion of Jesus Christ, who LIKE PAUL could have been converted BY THE GOSPEL if they would believe such men like Paul~much easier to converted regenerate unconverted Jews than regenerate unconverted Gentiles! Nevertheless, all of ISRAEL (both  elect Jews and Gentiles even if unconverted will be saved at the coming of Jesus Christ, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance! THIS IS THE MYSTERY that Paul was laboring to teach them at Rome and US. By the very fact few see and understand this truth even proves more so to me that it is INDEED a mystery concealed in the holy scriptures!

Brother, the Mystery is not future salvation for natural Israel as though salvation is through the bloodline which we know 100% that that is NOT SO~Per John 1:13.

God was FOREVER finished with the Jewish nation at the DEATH and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, they were NO LONGER needed, and had served their purpose of the antitype of the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD. Everything under the OT worship were types and shadows of the TRUTH yet to be revealed. Once Christ came, we know what those things under the old represented~do I need to show this?  The temple, the veil, etc., etc. and, YES, even the NATION~
Quote from: Peter a Jew by nature
1st Peter 2:4-9~"To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Everything about Israel of old typified the ISRAEL OF GOD the true holy nation that ONLY offers up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing in God's sight. God ENDURED all those sacrifices under the OT and never took pleasure in them as he does from the TRUE Israel of God, be they living in the OT or NT, but the new is much better seeing we have the GREAT HIGH PRIEST sitting on God's right hand making intercession for us. All the types and shadows under the first Covenant are clearly seen under the New Covenant sealed and ratified by the blood of God's holy Son. 
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 06:16:21 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 05:52:04 »
The nation Israel was never chosen for salvation; rather the nation was chosen for service.  There were individuals within the nation that indeed became chosen for salvation.  Chosen for service was never the basis for chosen for salvation.  That was Paul's primary message in Romans 9.  Chosen for salvation was and is the result of belief in God and His bringing forth a savior.  Before the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross the savior was a promise given; with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross the savior was a promise kept.
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 05:56:09 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

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Re: “Replacement Theology” - #2
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 07:51:17 »
I'm a little surprised and disappointed with and in you, brother. But at least you agree with old King James of England, for he placed a "church" under Moses. Listen to him.
Well, IMO Old King Jimmy got a little full of himself in his translation when he translated "Jacob" iakōbos G2385 some 42 times as "James."

Just to get his own name in the text.