Author Topic: The Doctrine of Justification  (Read 2483 times)

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Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #35 on: Sat Apr 23, 2022 - 10:14:54 »
With apologies for the abridgment of your post...

As nearly as I can tell, "justified" means that the judge ruled in your favor.  "Judged" by contrast means that the judge ruled against you.

Satisfying the conditions of the judgment (usually restitition) does not render the accused "just."

Jarrod

I apologize in advance for the lengthy post. I do enjoy honest examination of Scriptures, and feel compelled to make this case regarding Paul's meaning surrounding the term, "works of the Law" for justification.

I do see your point on the difference between forgiveness and being "made Just". I have implied that they mean the same. But now I can see that it is important to keep in mind that they don't. Thanks for that Jarrod.

In the exercise you posted, the Deed had been done. There is nothing that can take this deed away, Or make it disappear "just as if" it never happen.

Nothing can make this lawless man "just". To become Just, this sinful man must die, and be replaced by, or reborn as, a "new man". A man who doesn't beat up on others. This Lawless man is crucified, and is reborn into a New man who is not Lawless. And this made Spiritually possible by Faith or belief in the God of the Bible through the Lord's Christ.

Please take a moment please and consider the following.

Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (If I am calling Jesus my Lord, but find I am walking in Transgression of God's commandments, is the Spirit of Christ causing me to Sin? (God forbid)

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, (If I build again, the Lawless man who beats up other people) I make myself a transgressor. (A Lawless man again.)

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, (The Law says the man that sins shall die, so the lawless man is dead) that I might live unto God. (Live unto God as what? A Lawless man who beats up other people? No, a new man, who is Faithful to god and doesn't beat up on people.)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (So the New Man, is guided by the Life of Christ, which is different than the Lawless man, who was guided by the imagination of his own mind)

The Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread is symbolic of this process. Paul understood; ""Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump". It begins with forgiveness (Passover), it ends in Justification (Creation of a New man).

Pentecost or "Feast of Weeks" also symbolizes this "change".

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

A New man. "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"

A Lawful man, as Paul also teaches "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."


But the Pharisees had corrupted the "Way of the Lord". They didn't want, or see a reason  to change, or be reborn. They didn't even understand the concept even though it is symbolized all over the Law and Prophets.. Zacharias and Simeon did, but the Pharisees didn't.  They believed that by bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, which were "Works" of the old Priesthood (Governing Authority), they could keep their old lawless self, and were "made just" by these "works of the Law".

Jesus tries to explain this to a Pharisees called Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, and taught this "way of the Lord" during His life on earth.

"No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, Neither do men put new wine into old bottles"

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

The popular religious philosophy of this world, that God rejected the Pharisees because they were striving to be Lawful, for the purpose of Justification, is an insidious falsehood. Yet it is the foundational religious Pillar of most of this world's religious philosophies.

You can't know how much I appreciate much of the wisdom of your posts, and your replies. I hope my lengthy posts don't discourage you from continued engagement.















Offline DESTINI

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #36 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 07:24:11 »
I like RB's posts....I trust him more than any man I know....since he's my Dad!

Online Jaime

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #37 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 07:30:25 »
 ::applause:: yes your dad is a good man. Welcome to the forums!

Offline Alan

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 19:32:47 »
I asked Buff and Allan some questions regarding Buffs  "Defining Legalism" thread. Questions I have asked 4WD many times, but he refuses to answer, as did Allan, and Buff so far.



I didn't answer you because you were going down the rabbit hole of defending the law when the topic was defining legalism.  Clearly, you couldn't make the distinction.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 11:05:48 by Alan »

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #38 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 19:32:47 »

Offline Alan

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 19:41:27 »
You are doing it again. You will do anything it seems, to deflect, distract and avoid answering this simple, relevant question. I asked you specific, relevant questions for over a year now, and you still refuse to answer. I am happy to discuss and examine with you Roman's 2 after you show the smallest of courtesies and simply answer my question.

"Since Jesus and the Prophets, along with Stephen in Acts 7, make it clear to me that the Pharisees did not obey God, and according to Jesus had "omitted the weightier matters of the law", what "Works of the Law" for Justification were they promoting?

 "In the Law of Moses, when a man sinned, what did Moses instruct them to do? Did Moses say, "If a man sins he shall love his neighbor as himself and his sin is forgiven?" Or did Moses say, "If a man sins, he shall keep the 10 commandments and his sins are forgiven?"

What did Moses instruct, according to the Law, that a man do if he is found with non-purposeful sin?

Your points are interesting, and I would love to engage in honest discussion with you about them. But first, you must show the smallest of courtesies and simply answer my questions, as I have always answered yours..


Moses wouldn't have said anything to the sinners, once a year the people's sins were atoned for by the high priest. Moses would be giving false information to his people by saying "do this, or do that" to have your sins forgiven, there was no atonement outside of the single holy day.

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #39 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 19:41:27 »

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #40 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 09:05:03 »

Moses wouldn't have said anything to the sinners, once a year the people's sins were atoned for by the high priest. Moses would be giving false information to his people by saying "do this, or do that" to have your sins forgiven, there was no atonement outside of the single holy day.

I was simply interested in what the Scriptures actually say Allan. LOL, you see what I mean? Why not just open your own Bible and copy and paste Moses own words to answer my question?

The Scriptures themselves would bring question to your statement above, if you were to copy them and paste them on this thread.. 

If you don't believe the Law and Prophets, that is fine. My interest here, and the questions I ask, are in regard to what is actually written in the Scriptures.


Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #41 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 10:35:00 »
Perhaps I have missed it.  What is actually written in the OT scriptures about works of the law?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #42 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 12:52:03 »
Perhaps I have missed it.  What is actually written in the OT scriptures about works of the law?
It's pretty much "do these things and you'll live."

edit to add a less lazy answer:

Deu 5:33  Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 12:54:46 »
I don't think that is what GB is thinking of with "works of law".

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 12:54:46 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #44 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 13:00:14 »
I don't think that is what GB is thinking of with "works of law."
I can't really say what he's thinking.  ::tippinghat::

I just try to give the right answers.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #45 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 13:18:53 »
Perhaps "thinking of" is not the best approach.  But, at least for me, that is clearly not what he is describing when he posts about his thoughts on "works of law".

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #46 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 12:04:39 »
I can't really say what he's thinking.  ::tippinghat::

I just try to give the right answers.

Yes, asking and answering questions about scripture is a good way for brothers to "Take Heed" no man deceive them. For "Many" have come in Christ's Name, teaching that Jesus is truly the Christ, and have deceived "many", as Jesus forewarned.

But I get the hint.

Thanks anyway.










Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #47 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 16:06:36 »
GB, Please go to reply #41 and respond.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #48 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 17:36:53 »
Yes, asking and answering questions about scripture is a good way for brothers to "Take Heed" no man deceive them. For "Many" have come in Christ's Name, teaching that Jesus is truly the Christ, and have deceived "many", as Jesus forewarned.

But I get the hint.

Thanks anyway.
No hint intended.  I actually don't know what you're thinking.

I think 4WD lumps you in with the Pharisees among those trying to establish their own righteousness by works.  I do not think he is correct about that.

Jarrod

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #49 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 18:20:06 »
I think 4WD lumps you in with the Pharisees among those trying to establish their own righteousness by works.  I do not think he is correct about that.
No I do not lump him in with the Pharisees. And I don't think he is trying to establish his own righteousness by works. I just think he completely misunderstands Paul's reference to works of law.  And because of that he misses most of what Paul is speaking about when he speaks about grace not works.  Which is why I asked him to go back to reply #41 and respond.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 18:24:08 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #50 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 20:56:43 »
No I do not lump him in with the Pharisees. And I don't think he is trying to establish his own righteousness by works. I just think he completely misunderstands Paul's reference to works of law.  And because of that he misses most of what Paul is speaking about when he speaks about grace not works.  Which is why I asked him to go back to reply #41 and respond.
Fair enough.  Maybe I should be the one to take a hint and stop sticking my nose in.  ::tippinghat::

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #51 on: Thu Apr 28, 2022 - 13:00:37 »
No I do not lump him in with the Pharisees. And I don't think he is trying to establish his own righteousness by works. I just think he completely misunderstands Paul's reference to works of law.  And because of that he misses most of what Paul is speaking about when he speaks about grace not works.  Which is why I asked him to go back to reply #41 and respond.

Paul is speaking about Justification. If he were talking about "works of the Law" to cure Leprosy, we would go to the Law of Moses and find what Works he required for the treatment of Leprosy.

We would ask, "When a man get's leprosy, what did Moses requires this man to do". And in doing so, we would find what  "works of the law" were required for the treatment of Leprosy.

But he is speaking about "remission of sins" and Justification, and the Jews practice of prescribing "works of the law" for said forgiveness.

So then, a man would go to the Law and Prophets and ask "when a man is found with sin, what did Moses require this man to do" for this sin to be removed, forgotten, forgiven, making this man "free from sin" or "Just".

In doing this, we would find what "works of the law" were required for "remission of sins" which leads to justification.
 

Paul tells us in Acts what Jesus taught him in a vision about "justification".

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (Both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And again;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 "doers of what Law"?, Paul asked the same thing.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

We are justified by the Law of Faith. "Repent, turn to God, do works worthy of repentance".  Not the Law of works the Jews were still promoting. "Bring a goat to the Levite Priest and kill it".

It's not my fault your preferred religious philosophers don't believe or teach what is right there in front of you. But then, the Pharisees didn't get it either.


 


Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #52 on: Thu Apr 28, 2022 - 14:18:15 »
But he is speaking about "remission of sins" and Justification, and the Jews practice of prescribing "works of the law" for said forgiveness.
That is what you have claimed. And that is what I think you have wrong. That is what I asked you to provide the scriptural reference for.   Your "version" of "works of law" do not appear anywhere in the OT as far as I can find.  That is not what Paul speaks of when you speaks about grace versus works of law.

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #53 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 12:32:52 »
That is what you have claimed. And that is what I think you have wrong. That is what I asked you to provide the scriptural reference for.   Your "version" of "works of law" do not appear anywhere in the OT as far as I can find.

Are you serious?

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Is. 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Is. 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Jer. 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. 20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.

Hosea 8:13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt. 14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

I could go on and on. The Jews were still promoting these "works" of an obsolete Priesthood, "works" which were discussed all over the Bible.

Now come on 4WD. The problem you are having with me, is about popular religious traditions of a world we were born into. Not my misunderstanding of Scriptures.



Quote
  That is not what Paul speaks of when you speaks about grace versus works of law.

When Paul is speaking to and about the Pharisees, and their "Bewitching" the Galatians and New Converts, it is exactly what he is speaking about. Not according to the Pope, or some other popular religious philosophers of this world, but if one studies the scriptures it is clear.

It was about coming to Jesus VS going to a Levite Priest for the remission of sins.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.





Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #54 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 12:43:24 »
Are you serious?
Quite serious
Quote
Now come on 4WD. The problem you are having with me, is about popular religious traditions of a world we were born into. Not my misunderstanding of Scriptures.
It has nothing to do with popular religious traditions of the world.  It has everything to do with your misunderstanding of Scriptures.  I have affirmed that in your "Justification" thread.





Offline RB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #55 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 13:17:20 »
It was about coming to Jesus VS going to a Levite Priest for the remission of sins.
On all accounts, you sir, are badly deceived~and that's speaking very kindly, it is even worse than many would even agree with me that you are. Folks listening to you, are in danger of following another spirit other than the Spirit of the Living God.

We DO NOT come to Jesus~ God Almighty draws his elect unto Himself for Jesus' sake, based solely on obedience and righteousness of His holy Son.
Quote from: GB on: Today at 12:32:52
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
You quote random scriptures without having the slightest understanding of what the Spirit is saying in them.

Those that believe ARE justified, from all things~one does NOT believe in order to get justified, as you falsely claim~one's faith PROVES he IS justified, from all things from which one cannot be justified by the law of Moses, OR, any work that a man has an ACTIVE part in!

Enough said.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 13:19:31 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #56 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 04:40:33 »
Is. 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
GB, you over and over again randomly quote scriptures that actually go against what you believe and teach (or, I should say, "try" to teach) to others.
Quote from: JEHOVAH GOD
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Do you truly hear what the LORD God is saying? I do not believe you do, for "if" you did then you would not be preaching that one's sins are forgiven BECAUSE OF their own works of our sinful flesh.

Isaiah 43:25 is very clear as to why a person's sins are forgiven~"for mine own sake"...not for the sake of any work done by sinful man, for man is in bondage to sin/lusts and the devil himself~he cannot deliver himself, and truly has no desire to leave his sinful lust apart from the power, and the grace of God.

Also, notice these words that you truly do not believe:
Quote from: JEHOVAH GOD
will not remember thy sins
Once God forgives our sin for Christ's sake, they are FOREVER GONE never to be remembered against us again as far as charging us for transgressing against his holy Laws. They are in the sea of God's forgetfulness, gone forever. Yet, you believe man's sins can cause him to fall short of eternal life, the gift freely given to God's people~yet God's word said otherwise.
Quote from: Paul the man of God
Romans 11:29~"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
Your religion is a religion that has been here since the fall of man, a religion you were born with (through your fallen nature) yet, you make claims that others are following the religion of the land. We shall let the word of God, determined whose faith is according to the holy scriptures.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #57 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 07:30:01 »
RB, clearly your view of the doctrine of justification is different from GB's view.  But it is no less incorrect; and maybe it is even worse. And that is because you have inserted the Calvinistic concepts of Total Depravity and Election into the doctrine of Justification.  Doing so really messes it up.
We DO NOT come to Jesus~ God Almighty draws his elect unto Himself for Jesus' sake, based solely on obedience and righteousness of His holy Son.
There is not one word in the whole of the Bible that says that God Almighty draws his elect unto Himself for Jesus' sake, based solely on obedience and righteousness of His holy Son. That is man's word, not God's word.
[quote auhor=RB]You quote random scriptures without having the slightest understanding of what the Spirit is saying in them. [/quote]As applied to GB, I would agree whole heartedly with that statement; however, you are equally guilty of doing that as well.
Quote from: RB
Those that believe ARE justified, from all things~one does NOT believe in order to get justified, as you falsely claim~one's faith PROVES he IS justified, from all things from which one cannot be justified by the law of Moses, OR, any work that a man has an ACTIVE part in!
That statement is indeed true in the strictest sense, but not in the sense that you would put it.  Justification is of work of God. Man has no part in the act of justification.  However, that does not mean that God's choice of whom He justifies is independent upon any conditions or prerequisites He imposes.

Rom 3:28  For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 5:1  Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:11  Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

Gal 3:24  So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.


In every instance in those passages, the faith spoken of is the faith of the one being justified.  Clearly in every case, faith, believing in God, is the precondition for God justifying the person.  It is faith that is counted to the person as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:22  That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:23  But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24  but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25  who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


There can be no rational argument against the truth that it is our faith that is counted to us as righteousness.

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #58 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 11:20:23 »
That is what you have claimed. And that is what I think you have wrong. That is what I asked you to provide the scriptural reference for.   Your "version" of "works of law" do not appear anywhere in the OT as far as I can find.  That is not what Paul speaks of when you speaks about grace versus works of law.

If you would simply answer the question I asked of you, instead of working so hard to change the subject, or perhaps address the Scriptures I posted, we wouldn't have such a contentious discussion.

Paul is speaking of the Jews, not Islam. The Jews were still requiring  "works" of "THE LAW", to be performed before remission of sin was granted. This is simply Biblical Fact. It's not my fault that your religious philosophers haven't taught you what those "works" are.

I'm not preaching against Grace or Mercy. I'm pointing out an insidious lie that is being and has been promoted by this world's religions since before I was born, actually for centuries.

And that is that the Jews were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws. It is a popular belief, but a deception just the same. And from it, comes another insidious lie, that they were trying to get New Converts to also obey God's Law in order to be forgiven.

You take these two lies out from under modern religions, that you are promoting, and it falls, just as Jesus said it will in Matt. 7.

Just because you refuse to engage in an honest examination of Scriptures, or refuse to answer simple, relevant questions, doesn't make my understanding of Scriptures wrong.



 





Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #59 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 12:53:46 »
I'm not preaching against Grace or Mercy. I'm pointing out an insidious lie that is being and has been promoted by this world's religions since before I was born, actually for centuries.
The insidious lie that is being promoted here is coming from you.  It is not so much a lie; rather it is ignorance.

Offline GB

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #60 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 18:07:24 »
The insidious lie that is being promoted here is coming from you.  It is not so much a lie; rather it is ignorance.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but not surprised.

I was hoping that this time, instead of just drive by insults and rock throwing which is your custom, you might actually engage in an honest examination of scriptures.

Guess not.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Doctrine of Justification
« Reply #61 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 20:28:49 »
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but not surprised.
How could I feel any other way?  There is that which "has been promoted by this world's religions since before I was born, actually for centuries", and there is that which is being promoted by you and only you.  You are one against the whole of Christendom, or so it would seem, and we are supposed to believe what you are promoting. Not likely.

 

     
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