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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 08:33:23

Title: The Elect
Post by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 08:33:23
Quote

    God's elect were IN CHRIST from conception to his death and resurrection~and what he did, it was as though THEY DID IT.

And that of course comes about because of your adulteration of the concept of "the elect".  And that is a subject for another topic.  But make no mistake.  Your concept of "election" is skewed beyond all biblical reasoning.  And it stems from the false doctrine of Total Depravity, the doctrine that says that God gives dead spirits to men; and that is a heresy of heresies.


It was suggested that this should be a new thread in which I agree and would like to see it through so I took the liberty to stat it and lets see where it goes.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Alan on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 08:57:41
I dunno for certain but I do know the Augustinian view removes all hope, established faith, and leaves little more that a sour taste in one's mouth regarding the gospel of Jesus.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: grace on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 09:36:39
 I see the sovereignty of God and the free will of God parallels in scriptures. You can not deny either one...

An all knowing God knows beginning to end and because of that his sovereign will makes sense to me.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 09:38:54
I see the sovereignty of God and the free will of God parallels in scriptures. You can not deny either one...

An all knowing God knows beginning to end and because of that his sovereign will makes sense to me.

Usually one denies the other based upon their understanding.  Or based upon the God they've made rather than scripture.  Verses that back up sovereignty or the will of man are explained away by whatever side they gravitate.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: grace on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 09:52:50
Usually one denies the other based upon their understanding.  Or based upon the God they've made rather than scripture.  Verses that back up sovereignty or the will of man are explained away by whatever side they gravitate.
True, but when I search the Scriptures (barely scratching the surface on this subject)… I could not deny that they are both there!

I do not think they contradict the other through Scriptures. I do not have a problem with him picking Jacob over Essau even before they were born...He knows the beginning to end.

I am also learning I do not have to understand everything to trust God. He is good in all He does!
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: GB on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 10:29:01
True, but when I search the Scriptures (barely scratching the surface on this subject)… I could not deny that they are both there!

I do not think they contradict the other through Scriptures. I do not have a problem with him picking Jacob over Essau even before they were born...He knows the beginning to end.

I am also learning I do not have to understand everything to trust God. He is good in all He does!

I agree. It seems that time itself is a created reality. A created Realm. As such, the Creator is not subject to it unless He becomes part of it, as God did when He became a man.

If time itself is a creation of God, and I believe it is, then he holds time in His Hands. This would mean He has my beginning and my end in His hands and could see it from the moment He finished this creation. Not that He makes me do something, but that HE has already seen what I will do. Everything in time has a beginning and an ending. Universes, planets, life, rocks, stars, everything in our time realm has a beginning and an end.

To Him, I have already reacted and made the choices I am going to make. I don't know them, but HE has already seen them, to Him they have already happened. Those who deny themselves, their religions, their ideas, their fleshy desires, and turn to the God of the Bible in true Faith, are the elect. They are those whom God sees have chosen Him over themselves.

But God is not subject to His Creation, His Creation is subject to Him. He has no beginning or end. A concept that is impossible for us to understand as He tells us.

I'm OK with that too  ::smile:: ::smile::





Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: grace on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 10:59:37
I agree. It seems that time itself is a created reality. A created Realm. As such, the Creator is not subject to it unless He becomes part of it, as God did when He became a man.

If time itself is a creation of God, and I believe it is, then he holds time in His Hands. This would mean He has my beginning and my end in His hands and could see it from the moment He finished this creation. Not that He makes me do something, but that HE has already seen what I will do. Everything in time has a beginning and an ending. Universes, planets, life, rocks, stars, everything in our time realm has a beginning and an end.

To Him, I have already reacted and made the choices I am going to make. I don't know them, but HE has already seen them, to Him they have already happened. Those who deny themselves, their religions, their ideas, their fleshy desires, and turn to the God of the Bible in true Faith, are the elect. They are those whom God sees have chosen Him over themselves.

But God is not subject to His Creation, His Creation is subject to Him. He has no beginning or end. A concept that is impossible for us to understand as He tells us.

I'm OK with that too  ::smile:: ::smile::
::amen!::
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 12:48:59
I made a post~WHO deleted it? and WHY?  It was the fourth reply right after TC's. RB
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 13:46:15
Red I see no trace of anyone deleting your post it may have glitched out in posting I have had some do that in the past but I can see no trace of anyone deleting it.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Alan on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 15:57:40
Nothing in the moderation log of any posts being moved or deleted today. I double checked just to make sure yogi wasn't trying to slip one past you.  rofl
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 16:03:38
Thank you, most likely 4WD did it.  ::smile::
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Alan on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 16:05:07
Thank you, most likely 4WD did it.  ::smile::


4WD is ACCESS DENIED  ::smile::
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Jaime on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 16:08:59
It could have been the loose nut behind the keyboard!
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Alan on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 16:10:15
It could have been the loose nut behind the keyboard!
PBKAC?
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: soterion on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 17:48:03
Maybe God elected for Red's post to not stick around.

Just kidding, Red. ::wink::
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 18:12:17
Maybe God elected for Red's post to not stick around.

Just kidding, Red. ::wink::
rofl rofl rofl rofl sorry Red but that was  rofl rofl rofl rofl
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 21:12:17
1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


Romans 8:29-30 (KJV)
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 9:23-24 (KJV)
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


So with these scriptures in view just who are the elect and how did they become the elect?
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 09:24:52
So far no one has really addressed the biblical meaning of election.  In what follows here, I have taken most of it from the teachings of Jack Cottrell.  He most clearly presents what I believe to be the truth about the Biblical concept of Election.  You can find his work in several books he has written and on many articles he has written and which can be found on the internet.

The New Testament speaks of God as “choosing” or “electing” us, and Christians are called “the chosen ones” or “the elect.” The main verb for “choose” is eklegomai; the adjective (as in “chosen ones”) is eklektos; the noun (‘the chosen”) is eklogē. The words “elect,” “chosen,” and “predestined” carry similar connotations. A main point is that this language is used in different contexts with different applications. It does not always have to do with salvation, i.e., “chosen for salvation.”  Consider God's declaration concerning Jesus.

Luke 9:35  And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!"

Here God calls Jesus "My Chosen (ἐκλέγομαι - [eklegomai]) One".  (See also 35; see Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4,6).  Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.  Obviously Jesus was chosen not for salvation but for service. And He was certainly not chosen against His own will. 

Just as with Jesus, when used of human beings sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. God decides to use certain individuals to play specific roles in His program of redemption. To create the nation of Israel God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Nehemiah 9:7; Romans 9:7-13). He chose Moses (Psalms 106:23) and David (Psalms 78:70; 139:16) among others. He even chose certain Gentile rulers to help carry out His purpose for Israel, e.g., Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1).

The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation. (See Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Acts 13:17.) The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9—a point which is usually missed completely in Reformed Theology. In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to Old Testament Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9);

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

This election, this divine choosing, is in part an election to service. When Peter describes the church as a “chosen race” here, he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

The language of election is sometimes applied to groups in the sense of election to salvation, but in a very special way. Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation. This is the key to understanding Paul’s treatment of predestination in Ephesians 1:1-14. His main point is not the predestination of individuals to salvation, but the predestination of all the Jews as a nation, and then the predestination of all the Gentiles also, to be a part of his chosen people. However, he is not here speaking of every individual Jew nor of every individual Gentile as the object of predestination to salvation, but of God’s choice to make salvation available to both groups and to unite both groups into one body, the church (see Ephesians 2:11-16; 3:1-10).

The key to this understanding is how Paul’s use of “we” and “you” in Ephesians 1.  There Paul refers to “we Jews” and “you Gentiles.” In this passage Paul identifies himself with the Jews, whom he calls “the first to hope in Christ” (v. 12). In the first part of the chapter he dwells on God’s purpose for the Jews as a nation: how God chose them, the Jews as a nation, before the foundation of the world, how he predestined them to adoption as sons, how he offered them the gospel of grace first (see Romans 1:16). It should be noted that the references to predestination in Ephesians 1 are strictly speaking of the predestination of the nation of Israel, not of individual believers. Paul’s main emphasis up through v. 12 is on God’s purpose for the Jews (“us”). But then in the next verses he begins speaking in the second person, “you,” i.e., you Gentiles. In v. 12 he says that “we who were the first to hope in Christ” were used to the praise of His glory, but now “you also” have been brought into the sphere of salvation “to the praise of His glory.” This is the theme he continues to develop, then, in chapters two and three especially.

So far we see that the Biblical language of election is used in several different ways. I have explained the first four such ways: (1) the election of Jesus as our the Redeemer; (2) the election of individuals to service, e.g., the patriarchs and the apostles; (3) the election election of groups (especially Israel) to service; and (4) the election of groups as categories of individuals to whom God offers his gift of salvation, specifically the Jews and the Gentiles.

There is the fifth way  that the Biblical language of election is used.  It is in this fifth way that most people tend to think of the "elect" or the "chosen" or the "predestined".  This fifth way, sometimes used in the Bible, is to refer to the fact that God has indeed elected or chosen or predestined some individuals to salvation. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize this. The difference between these groups is not that the former believes in predestination while the latter does not. The difference lies in the fact that the former (Calvinism) believes that such election is unconditional, while the latter (non-Calvinists) believes that it is conditional.

First, God does choose (elect, predestinate) some individuals to be saved. The language of election or choosing is definitely applied to us as individuals (see Romans 16:13). We are “the elect,” the ones chosen by God. (See, e.g., Matthew 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Revelation 17:14.)

Second, our election is conditional. I.e., God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.  These actions are decisions we must make in order to be chosen by God for salvation. Faith and repentance are not gifts which God bestows arbitrarily upon some sinners while passing others by. Ephesians 2:8 does NOT say that faith is the gift of God; Greek grammar does not allow this interpretation 

It is obvious that some choose to meet these conditions, and some do not. The Bible says emphatically that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:2-4; 2 Peter 3:9), a fact that is clearly inconsistent with the whole idea of the unconditional election of only some to salvation. It is obvious also that not everyone is willing to meet the conditions God specifies in order to be among the chosen.

Jesus said concerning Jerusalem, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.” But in spite of Jesus’ own earnest desire (“I wanted”), he sadly acknowledges—“and you were unwilling” (Matthew 23:37). Jesus wanted to choose them, but they did not want to be chosen. This is how we must understand texts such as John 5:21, which says that “the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” In general He wishes to give life to all sinners, but Scripture makes clear that He will actually give life or salvation only to those who do those things He has specified as conditions for receiving it. These conditions are part of the gospel, through which God draws all men unto himself (see John 6:44, 65; 12:32).

The word of the gospel draws ALL who hear it, but some resist its drawing power. God calls and draws sinners unto Himself, but this calling and drawing are universal and resistible, not selective and irresistible (contrary to Calvinist teaching).

The third point is that God from eternity past in his foreknowledge has already foreseen who will and who will not meet His gracious gospel conditions by obeying His gracious gospel commands. God did not predestine anyone to believe and repent. He foreknew that they would believe and repent along with obeying the other gospel commands, and as a result He predestined them to final salvation.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: e.r.m. on Mon Nov 04, 2019 - 18:39:41
Yogi bear,
From what I've heard, the elect just refers to God's chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9. All the other stuff was added by commentators. John 1:12  says God gave people the right/authority/power to become sons of God.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 17:03:24
True, but when I search the Scriptures (barely scratching the surface on this subject)… I could not deny that they are both there!

I do not think they contradict the other through Scriptures. I do not have a problem with him picking Jacob over Essau even before they were born...He knows the beginning to end.

I am also learning I do not have to understand everything to trust God. He is good in all He does!

Hi Grace.

I agree that God knows the beginning to end. But may I ask, what beginning? What end?

You also mentioned the matter of Jacob and Esau. But had you thought of Isaac and Ishmael? That of Isaac is not quite the same as with Jacob, don't you see so?
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 21:21:05
So far no one has really addressed the biblical meaning of election.  In what follows here, I have taken most of it from the teachings of Jack Cottrell.  He most clearly presents what I believe to be the truth about the Biblical concept of Election.  You can find his work in several books he has written and on many articles he has written and which can be found on the internet.

Since you made this post, I would take everything here as your own, not Cottrell's.

The New Testament speaks of God as “choosing” or “electing” us, and Christians are called “the chosen ones” or “the elect.” The main verb for “choose” is eklegomai; the adjective (as in “chosen ones”) is eklektos; the noun (‘the chosen”) is eklogē. The words “elect,” “chosen,” and “predestined” carry similar connotations.

I do not agree with the last statement. I agree that the words "elect" and "chosen" carry similar connotations, but not with the word "predestined".

A main point is that this language is used in different contexts with different applications. It does not always have to do with salvation, i.e., “chosen for salvation.”  Consider God's declaration concerning Jesus.

Luke 9:35  And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!"

Here God calls Jesus "My Chosen (ἐκλέγομαι - [eklegomai]) One".  (See also 35; see Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4,6).  Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.  Obviously Jesus was chosen not for salvation but for service. And He was certainly not chosen against His own will.


No objection.

Just as with Jesus, when used of human beings sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. God decides to use certain individuals to play specific roles in His program of redemption. To create the nation of Israel God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Nehemiah 9:7; Romans 9:7-13). He chose Moses (Psalms 106:23) and David (Psalms 78:70; 139:16) among others. He even chose certain Gentile rulers to help carry out His purpose for Israel, e.g., Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1).

I acknowledge that sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. However, I have to point out that, God's election of men, it being for service, or being for salvation, does not change the truth that election is a righteous act of God, Him being the Sovereign Creator.

I acknowledge that God elected certain individuals for service, but do also acknowledge that God elected people for salvation. I think we don't have an issue with that of God's election for service, so I will not talk about that anymore.

The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation. (See Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Acts 13:17.) The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9—a point which is usually missed completely in Reformed Theology. In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

4WD: The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation.

I agree with your first statement. On the second, I disagree. My understanding concerning the election of Israel, is not only for service, also for salvation. God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6). 

4WD: The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah.

As much as there is some truth in that, that is not what we can learn from scriptures as to the election of Israel. Besides what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", the election of Israel is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25)

4WD: This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9

As I have pointed out, God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6).

And while to you or to Cottrell, that is the main point of Paul in Romans 9, it does not mean that it is as you say it is. You have to explain why you say so. And as much as I don't agree with you on that, I would likewise explain why, after you. But certainly, what Paul said in Romans 9 concerning God's election, testifies that God's election of men, be it to make some as vessels of wrath or some as vessels of mercy, is a righteous act of God, Him being the Sovereign Creator. 

4WD: In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

Still on Romans 9. Paul is not really defending God's sovereignty. Rather, He is declaring it and clarifies a certain aspect of it that otherwise would not be clear to us.

Yes, God's sovereignty is absolute and that He can rightfully and righteously unconditionally choose any of His creatures according to His purpose, pleasure, and glory. But not only that. That in God's sovereignty, absolute as it is, He can rightfully and righteously, unconditionally have mercy on anyone to whom He wills to give it without being bound to have mercy on all. As also, He can rightfully and righteously unconditionally harden anyone whom he wills to harden without being bound to harden all nor save them afterwards. 

To be continued on my next post.....
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 22:22:47
In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to Old Testament Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9);

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Please show in scriptures where it speaks of the church as the new Israel, or that which speaks of the church as God's new elect body, or which speaks of a new Israel, so I can consider and study them. Else, that would only be your own-made doctrine, or Cottrell's?

You need to check out what Peter said there with what is written in Exodus 19:6.

This election, this divine choosing, is in part an election to service. When Peter describes the church as a “chosen race” here, he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

4WD: Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

And that is your conclusion, right? That is not the conclusion of Peter, nor of Paul's, nor any of the apostles, right?

As I have pointed out in my other posts, of which this post is a continuation of, that the election of Israel is what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", and is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25).

The language of election is sometimes applied to groups in the sense of election to salvation, but in a very special way. Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation. This is the key to understanding Paul’s treatment of predestination in Ephesians 1:1-14. His main point is not the predestination of individuals to salvation, but the predestination of all the Jews as a nation, and then the predestination of all the Gentiles also, to be a part of his chosen people. However, he is not here speaking of every individual Jew nor of every individual Gentile as the object of predestination to salvation, but of God’s choice to make salvation available to both groups and to unite both groups into one body, the church (see Ephesians 2:11-16; 3:1-10).

4WD:Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation.

You refer to the Jews as a group and the Gentiles as another group. That is just another way of referring to the whole world.

Now, the Jewish group and the Gentile group you say are chosen or predestined for salvation. And of course that does not even sound right, so that, it is imperative to qualify out that the election and predestination is not in the sense that every man will be saved, or that every Jew in the Jewish group will be saved, or every Gentile in the Gentile group will be saved. That really is a clever qualification, I would have to say. For even if only a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand of each of the group turns out to be saved, it satisfies the qualification, and no number of individuals would not satisfy the qualification. But so much with such comment. I have some question to you regarding this part of your post.

First I ask, if the Jewish group is chosen and predestined, and the Gentile group is also chosen and predestined, what group then is not chosen and predestined? 

Second, please show where in scriptures does it says that the Jews, as a group or category of people, were elected and predestined for salvation, and scriptures that says that the Gentiles, as a group or category of people, were elected and predestined for salvation, so I can consider and study them.

Third, can you tell us what the groups were specifically predestined to be? Are they predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ? That would not be, since the sense of predestination you say is not individual but as a group. So, tell us, especially that of the Gentile group. If you can show supporting scriptures, that would be great.

Fourth, what point in time did God made salvation available to both groups?

Fifth, prior to that time when salvation was made available to both groups, was there a time when salvation was not made available by God to one of the groups?

Sixth, before there were the Jewish group and the Gentile group, was salvation available? And if so, to what group was salvation available? 

To be continued on next post....
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 01:41:58
The key to this understanding is how Paul’s use of “we” and “you” in Ephesians 1.  There Paul refers to “we Jews” and “you Gentiles.” In this passage Paul identifies himself with the Jews, whom he calls “the first to hope in Christ” (v. 12). In the first part of the chapter he dwells on God’s purpose for the Jews as a nation: how God chose them, the Jews as a nation, before the foundation of the world, how he predestined them to adoption as sons, how he offered them the gospel of grace first (see Romans 1:16). It should be noted that the references to predestination in Ephesians 1 are strictly speaking of the predestination of the nation of Israel, not of individual believers. Paul’s main emphasis up through v. 12 is on God’s purpose for the Jews (“us”). But then in the next verses he begins speaking in the second person, “you,” i.e., you Gentiles. In v. 12 he says that “we who were the first to hope in Christ” were used to the praise of His glory, but now “you also” have been brought into the sphere of salvation “to the praise of His glory.” This is the theme he continues to develop, then, in chapters two and three especially.

So far we see that the Biblical language of election is used in several different ways. I have explained the first four such ways: (1) the election of Jesus as our the Redeemer; (2) the election of individuals to service, e.g., the patriarchs and the apostles; (3) the election election of groups (especially Israel) to service; and (4) the election of groups as categories of individuals to whom God offers his gift of salvation, specifically the Jews and the Gentiles.

There is the fifth way  that the Biblical language of election is used.  It is in this fifth way that most people tend to think of the "elect" or the "chosen" or the "predestined".  This fifth way, sometimes used in the Bible, is to refer to the fact that God has indeed elected or chosen or predestined some individuals to salvation. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize this. The difference between these groups is not that the former believes in predestination while the latter does not. The difference lies in the fact that the former (Calvinism) believes that such election is unconditional, while the latter (non-Calvinists) believes that it is conditional.

First, God does choose (elect, predestinate) some individuals to be saved. The language of election or choosing is definitely applied to us as individuals (see Romans 16:13). We are “the elect,” the ones chosen by God. (See, e.g., Matthew 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Revelation 17:14.)

4WD:God does choose (elect, predestinate) some individuals to be saved.

God did choose some to save to be His people.

Second, our election is conditional. I.e., God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.  These actions are decisions we must make in order to be chosen by God for salvation. Faith and repentance are not gifts which God bestows arbitrarily upon some sinners while passing others by. Ephesians 2:8 does NOT say that faith is the gift of God; Greek grammar does not allow this interpretation


I disagree.

First, in all of the four elections you spoke about, why would this fifth election be any different in the sense that God's election here is sort of one that is attained or one in which one gets to be elected by his meeting some requirements that God specified for one to do, which is not so in the other elections of God? That sure is questionable and suspect.

4WD: God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.

That would make God's election for salvation as not by grace, but by one's meeting the conditions that you say one must meet in order to be elected for salvation. And if you translate that to salvation, salvation then would not be as scriptures says "by grace through faith", but would then be "by faith, repentance, confession, and baptism".

4WD: Faith and repentance are not gifts which God bestows arbitrarily upon some sinners while passing others by.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of God. I think I will not here comment further on this as this would only take us away from the topic of election. This could be for another topic.

It is obvious that some choose to meet these conditions, and some do not. The Bible says emphatically that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:2-4; 2 Peter 3:9), a fact that is clearly inconsistent with the whole idea of the unconditional election of only some to salvation. It is obvious also that not everyone is willing to meet the conditions God specifies in order to be among the chosen.

Jesus said concerning Jerusalem, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.” But in spite of Jesus’ own earnest desire (“I wanted”), he sadly acknowledges—“and you were unwilling” (Matthew 23:37). Jesus wanted to choose them, but they did not want to be chosen. This is how we must understand texts such as John 5:21, which says that “the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” In general He wishes to give life to all sinners, but Scripture makes clear that He will actually give life or salvation only to those who do those things He has specified as conditions for receiving it. These conditions are part of the gospel, through which God draws all men unto himself (see John 6:44, 65; 12:32).

John 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
    and understand with their heart, and turn,
    and I would heal them.


Clearly, in verse 40, if God had not blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, they would have seen and understood with heart and they could have repented and believed and have been healed (saved). That is God's sovereignty my friend. Should I ask God why He hardened them that they could not believe, when He wants all people to be saved? I definitely will not. Will I think that God is unrighteous by that? I definitely will not.

The word of the gospel draws ALL who hear it, but some resist its drawing power. God calls and draws sinners unto Himself, but this calling and drawing are universal and resistible, not selective and irresistible (contrary to Calvinist teaching).

John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
    and understand with their heart, and turn,
    and I would heal them.


Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

1 Cor.2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

Romans 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

The third point is that God from eternity past in his foreknowledge has already foreseen who will and who will not meet His gracious gospel conditions by obeying His gracious gospel commands. God did not predestine anyone to believe and repent. He foreknew that they would believe and repent along with obeying the other gospel commands, and as a result He predestined them to final salvation.

Concerning election from before the foundation of the world, the position that the foreknowledge of God is that of their believing and repenting along with obeying the other gospel commands, is not found in scriptures. It is just the conclusion of some men, arrived at using and based only on their reasoning.

Concerning election this is what is clear in scriptures:

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 06:02:05
Since you made this post, I would take everything here as your own, not Cottrell's.
What I wrote is my own.  But if you bother to read Cottrell, you will find agreement in what I posted.
Quote from: Michael
I do not agree with the last statement. I agree that the words "elect" and "chosen" carry similar connotations, but not with the word "predestined".
Of course the ordinary English words "elect" and "chosen" do not necessarily mean the same thing as the English word "Predestined".  However when speaking of the "chosen" of God (either for service of salvation), the word is used in the very special case of having been chosen from before the world began  for some specific purpose which is very much the same meaning as predestined.  If you think otherwise then please provide the difference in meaning rather than simply saying you disagree.
Quote from: Michael
I acknowledge that sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. However, I have to point out that, God's election of men, it being for service, or being for salvation, does not change the truth that election is a righteous act of God, Him being the Sovereign Creator.
I have never said otherwise.
Quote from: Michael
I acknowledge that God elected certain individuals for service, but do also acknowledge that God elected people for salvation. I think we don't have an issue with that of God's election for service, so I will not talk about that anymore.

4WD: The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation.

I agree with your first statement. On the second, I disagree. My understanding concerning the election of Israel, is not only for service, also for salvation. God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6). 
Here again is where your irrational thinking gets you in trouble. The ethnic nation of Israel was not chosen for salvation.  Some individuals in the nation of Israel were chosen for salvation, but obviously the nation was not chosen for salvation.  Clearly ethnic Israel wasn't saved; only some individuals of ethnic Israel were saved.  And that by the way is the whole purpose of Paul's writing what he did in Romans 9.  In chapter 9, Paul establishes the distinction between ethnic Israel, the children of the flesh, from spiritual Israel, the children of the promise (v. 8).
Quote from: Michael
4WD: The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah.

As much as there is some truth in that, that is not what we can learn from scriptures as to the election of Israel. Besides what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", the election of Israel is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25)
Paul says you are wrong:  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Rom 9:6),
Quote from: Michael
4WD: This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9

As I have pointed out, God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6).
And as I have pointed out, Israel as a nation was not chosen (elected) for salvation; only some individuals out of the nation were chosen for salvation; that is the remnant (Rom 9:27; 11:5)
Quote from: Michael
And while to you or to Cottrell, that is the main point of Paul in Romans 9, it does not mean that it is as you say it is.
It is not I nor Cottrell who is saying that; rather it is Paul saying that.

Rom 9:27  And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
 
Rom 9:31  but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Rom 9:32  Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith....


The ethnic nation of Israel was chosen only for service. some individuals belonging to the ethnic nation of Israel were chosen for salvation.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:09:51
First, in all of the four elections you spoke about, why would this fifth election be any different in the sense that God's election here is sort of one that is attained or one in which one gets to be elected by his meeting some requirements that God specified for one to do, which is not so in the other elections of God? That sure is questionable and suspect.
Why would it be different? Because God said so.
Quote from: Michael
4WD: God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.

That would make God's election for salvation as not by grace,
That statement, or one similar to it, has been said so often that some think that it must be true.  It is not!!  And it is absurd.  There is nothing about God's grace that precludes if from being conditional.  Conditional does not mean that it is meritorious. Just because God places conditions upon receiving salvation does not mean that salvation is earned.

So much erroneous teaching about God's grace derives from the false concept that conditional grace is not grace.  That is the sort of nonsense that drives me up a wall.  If I told you that I would send you one billion dollars if you would send me your address, and if you sent me your address and I sent you one billion dollars, would you really think that it wasn't a gift but that you had earned it?  I don't think so.  But when you say, "That would make God's election for salvation as not by grace", that is precisely the mistake you make. Salvation by grace does not preclude conditions. And trust me, salvation is worth much, much more than a measly one billion dollars. 

Speaking of John 12:37-40 you said:

Quote from: Michael
Clearly, in verse 40, if God had not blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, they would have seen and understood with heart and they could have repented and believed and have been healed (saved). That is God's sovereignty my friend. Should I ask God why He hardened them that they could not believe, when He wants all people to be saved? I definitely will not. Will I think that God is unrighteous by that? I definitely will not.
That gets into the whole topic of God's hardening.  That is a separate topic for a separate discussion.  So I will only make one comment here. And that is that God hardens only them who have a history of openly defying God;  there is no instance where we read that God hardened anyone contrary to his desires or thoughts. Although it is not specifically stated as hardening, that is what Paul describes in Romans 1 concerning the ungodly and unrighteous men (v.15).  He says "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...." (v.24)
Quote from: Michael
Concerning election from before the foundation of the world, the position that the foreknowledge of God is that of their believing and repenting along with obeying the other gospel commands, is not found in scriptures. It is just the conclusion of some men, arrived at using and based only on their reasoning.
No it is not just the conclusion of some men.  Michael, Paul said it.  He said it in Romans 8:  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30 )The subject of this passage is those who love God.  Who did God predestine?  Those whom He foreknew. Foreknew what? That they were those who (would) love God.  They were the ones He predestined; they were the ones He chose, those were the ones he predestined. Those who He predestined, He called, etc.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 15:11:54
Since you made this post, I would take everything here as your own, not Cottrell's.
What I wrote is my own.  But if you bother to read Cottrell, you will find agreement in what I posted.

Quote from: Michael
I do not agree with the last statement. I agree that the words "elect" and "chosen" carry similar connotations, but not with the word "predestined".
Of course the ordinary English words "elect" and "chosen" do not necessarily mean the same thing as the English word "Predestined".  However when speaking of the "chosen" of God (either for service of salvation), the word is used in the very special case of having been chosen from before the world began  for some specific purpose which is very much the same meaning as predestined.  If you think otherwise then please provide the difference in meaning rather than simply saying you disagree.
I didn't think an explanation is needed on the matter that the words  "elect" and "chosen" does not carry similar connotations with the word "predestined". Correctly so, it is you who needed to explain why you say that the word "predestined" carries the same connotation as the words "elect" and "chosen".

To be elected or chosen does not necessarily mean to be predestined. Election and predestination are two different things. The former is about the matter of choosing and selecting, while the latter is about the matter of preparing or appointing beforehand. To make them synonymous is an obvious undeniable twisting or distortion of the meaning of either election or predestination.

Quote from: Michael
I acknowledge that sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. However, I have to point out that, God's election of men, it being for service, or being for salvation, does not change the truth that election is a righteous act of God, Him being the Sovereign Creator.
I have never said otherwise.
Never said you said otherwise.

Quote from: Michael
I acknowledge that God elected certain individuals for service, but do also acknowledge that God elected people for salvation. I think we don't have an issue with that of God's election for service, so I will not talk about that anymore.

4WD: The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation.

I agree with your first statement. On the second, I disagree. My understanding concerning the election of Israel, is not only for service, also for salvation. God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6).
Here again is where your irrational thinking gets you in trouble. The ethnic nation of Israel was not chosen for salvation.  Some individuals in the nation of Israel were chosen for salvation, but obviously the nation was not chosen for salvation.  Clearly ethnic Israel wasn't saved; only some individuals of ethnic Israel were saved.  And that by the way is the whole purpose of Paul's writing what he did in Romans 9.  In chapter 9, Paul establishes the distinction between ethnic Israel, the children of the flesh, from spiritual Israel, the children of the promise (v. 8).

It's only now that you say "ethnic" nation of Israel. Fairness comes nice with any proud rational man, does it not? So....

But to be sure, the nation of Israel that I am referring to in my statement in the quote box, was elected by God, not only for service but even more for salvation. I had shown that to you even in other posts on the other threads. Now, if you want me to do that here again, just say so. But if I do, then you would again walk out or put to a halt this discussion. I don't know why you do that everytime. So, I will only do that here if you at least say you won't ignore it and run away from it.

Now, if you are qualifying Israel now to refer to the ethnic nation of Israel, yes I can agree that the ethnic nation of Israel was elected for service and not for salvation, to the exclusion of those among them who were elected both for service and for salvation.

Quote from: Michael
4WD: The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah.

As much as there is some truth in that, that is not what we can learn from scriptures as to the election of Israel. Besides what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", the election of Israel is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25)
Paul says you are wrong:  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Rom 9:6),

No one will believe you in saying that Paul says I am wrong, because clearly he did not. I said nothing but this "what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", the election of Israel is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25)". How can Paul say that is wrong? To the contrary, Paul actually put on the clear what I am saying by revealing in scriptures the identity of the Israel of God (do you want to know?). In fact Peter is in agreement with Paul as to the identity of the Israel of God. Compare Exodus 19:6 and 1 Peter 2:9.

Quote from: Michael
4WD: This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9

As I have pointed out, God's election of Israel as a nation for service could not be divorced from their election for salvation (Exodus 19:6).
 
And as I have pointed out, Israel as a nation was not chosen (elected) for salvation; only some individuals out of the nation were chosen for salvation; that is the remnant (Rom 9:27; 11:5)

Again, only now that you qualify the nation of Israel you refer to as the "ethnic" nation of Israel.

You mention a "remnant". And of course that would be of (ethnic) Israel, right? And they are elected for salvation, right? But even while, if my memory serves me right, I had asked this question to you a number of times in the past, and a number of times also you ignored the question. But perhaps now you won't for it is you who brought it up. So I ask, why does scriptures speaks of a remnant of (ethnic) Israel, chosen by the election of grace? What is the significance of the "remnant" and having a remnant? What does a remnant signify when it is used in scriptures concerning Israel? 
 
Also, I presume, when you speak of salvation there, you are referring to salvation from sin and from Hell, and not to salvation from any other such as from physical death, from physical suffering, or from any physical danger. So that when you say "only some individuals out of the nation were chosen for salvation; that is the remnant", you take the remnant as saved from sin and from Hell. Is that correct? Please confirm, if not, clarify.

Quote from: Michael
And while to you or to Cottrell, that is the main point of Paul in Romans 9, it does not mean that it is as you say it is. You have to explain why you say so. And as much as I don't agree with you on that, I would likewise explain why, after you. But certainly, what Paul said in Romans 9 concerning God's election, testifies that God's election of men, be it to make some as vessels of wrath or some as vessels of mercy, is a righteous act of God, Him being the Sovereign Creator.
It is not I nor Cottrell who is saying that; rather it is Paul saying that.

Rom 9:27  And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
 
Rom 9:31  but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Rom 9:32  Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith....


The ethnic nation of Israel was chosen only for service. some individuals belonging to the ethnic nation of Israel were chosen for salvation.

Of course, nowhere in the scriptures that you quoted says what you say that "the corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite."

Here again, you brought up the matter of the "remnant" by quoting Romans 9:27. So, the more reason that you really now have to answer the questions I asked in the segment above concerning the remnant.

Now, concerning Romans 9:31-32, I ask this question, if ethnic Israel, as you say, were only elected for service, why does Paul, in those verses talk about what clearly is a matter of their salvation? The Law sure appears to have been given to them by God for salvation purposes. And come to think of it, the Law was not given to any other people, but to them. That sure is a clear selection or election of them by God from among all peoples for the purpose of salvation, is it not?

Quote from: Michael
4WD: In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

Still on Romans 9. Paul is not really defending God's sovereignty. Rather, He is declaring it and clarifies a certain aspect of it that otherwise would not be clear to us.

Yes, God's sovereignty is absolute and that He can rightfully and righteously unconditionally choose any of His creatures according to His purpose, pleasure, and glory. But not only that. That in God's sovereignty, absolute as it is, He can rightfully and righteously, unconditionally have mercy on anyone to whom He wills to give it without being bound to have mercy on all. As also, He can rightfully and righteously unconditionally harden anyone whom he wills to harden without being bound to harden all nor save them afterwards.

Either skipped or ignored by 4WD or simply just no comment.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 15:26:01
4WD, where is your response to my reply #21? Hope you just missed it and is not running away. You requested me to consider your post in reply #17 and did so, segment by segment, tried my best to cover all of what you've written there, and quoted you in full and in context. It would only be fair and proper to respond to my posts. Here's a quick link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-elect-104809/msg1055162939/#msg1055162939

Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 15:49:46
OK, here is my reply:

The New Testament speaks of God as “choosing” or “electing” us, and Christians are called “the chosen ones” or “the elect.” The main verb for “choose” is eklegomai; the adjective (as in “chosen ones”) is eklektos; the noun (‘the chosen”) is eklogē. The words “elect,” “chosen,” and “predestined” carry similar connotations. A main point is that this language is used in different contexts with different applications. It does not always have to do with salvation, i.e., “chosen for salvation.”  Consider God's declaration concerning Jesus.

Luke 9:35  And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!"

Here God calls Jesus "My Chosen (ἐκλέγομαι - [eklegomai]) One".  (See also 35; see Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4,6).  Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.  Obviously Jesus was chosen not for salvation but for service. And He was certainly not chosen against His own will. 

Just as with Jesus, when used of human beings sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. God decides to use certain individuals to play specific roles in His program of redemption. To create the nation of Israel God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Nehemiah 9:7; Romans 9:7-13). He chose Moses (Psalms 106:23) and David (Psalms 78:70; 139:16) among others. He even chose certain Gentile rulers to help carry out His purpose for Israel, e.g., Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1).

The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation. (See Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Acts 13:17.) The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9—a point which is usually missed completely in Reformed Theology. In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to Old Testament Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9);

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

This election, this divine choosing, is in part an election to service. When Peter describes the church as a “chosen race” here, he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

The language of election is sometimes applied to groups in the sense of election to salvation, but in a very special way. Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation. This is the key to understanding Paul’s treatment of predestination in Ephesians 1:1-14. His main point is not the predestination of individuals to salvation, but the predestination of all the Jews as a nation, and then the predestination of all the Gentiles also, to be a part of his chosen people. However, he is not here speaking of every individual Jew nor of every individual Gentile as the object of predestination to salvation, but of God’s choice to make salvation available to both groups and to unite both groups into one body, the church (see Ephesians 2:11-16; 3:1-10).

The key to this understanding is how Paul’s use of “we” and “you” in Ephesians 1.  There Paul refers to “we Jews” and “you Gentiles.” In this passage Paul identifies himself with the Jews, whom he calls “the first to hope in Christ” (v. 12). In the first part of the chapter he dwells on God’s purpose for the Jews as a nation: how God chose them, the Jews as a nation, before the foundation of the world, how he predestined them to adoption as sons, how he offered them the gospel of grace first (see Romans 1:16). It should be noted that the references to predestination in Ephesians 1 are strictly speaking of the predestination of the nation of Israel, not of individual believers. Paul’s main emphasis up through v. 12 is on God’s purpose for the Jews (“us”). But then in the next verses he begins speaking in the second person, “you,” i.e., you Gentiles. In v. 12 he says that “we who were the first to hope in Christ” were used to the praise of His glory, but now “you also” have been brought into the sphere of salvation “to the praise of His glory.” This is the theme he continues to develop, then, in chapters two and three especially.

So far we see that the Biblical language of election is used in several different ways. I have explained the first four such ways: (1) the election of Jesus as our the Redeemer; (2) the election of individuals to service, e.g., the patriarchs and the apostles; (3) the election election of groups (especially Israel) to service; and (4) the election of groups as categories of individuals to whom God offers his gift of salvation, specifically the Jews and the Gentiles.

There is the fifth way  that the Biblical language of election is used.  It is in this fifth way that most people tend to think of the "elect" or the "chosen" or the "predestined".  This fifth way, sometimes used in the Bible, is to refer to the fact that God has indeed elected or chosen or predestined some individuals to salvation. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize this. The difference between these groups is not that the former believes in predestination while the latter does not. The difference lies in the fact that the former (Calvinism) believes that such election is unconditional, while the latter (non-Calvinists) believes that it is conditional.

First, God does choose (elect, predestinate) some individuals to be saved. The language of election or choosing is definitely applied to us as individuals (see Romans 16:13). We are “the elect,” the ones chosen by God. (See, e.g., Matthew 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Revelation 17:14.)

Second, our election is conditional. I.e., God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.  These actions are decisions we must make in order to be chosen by God for salvation. Faith and repentance are not gifts which God bestows arbitrarily upon some sinners while passing others by. Ephesians 2:8 does NOT say that faith is the gift of God; Greek grammar does not allow this interpretation 

It is obvious that some choose to meet these conditions, and some do not. The Bible says emphatically that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:2-4; 2 Peter 3:9), a fact that is clearly inconsistent with the whole idea of the unconditional election of only some to salvation. It is obvious also that not everyone is willing to meet the conditions God specifies in order to be among the chosen.

Jesus said concerning Jerusalem, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.” But in spite of Jesus’ own earnest desire (“I wanted”), he sadly acknowledges—“and you were unwilling” (Matthew 23:37). Jesus wanted to choose them, but they did not want to be chosen. This is how we must understand texts such as John 5:21, which says that “the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” In general He wishes to give life to all sinners, but Scripture makes clear that He will actually give life or salvation only to those who do those things He has specified as conditions for receiving it. These conditions are part of the gospel, through which God draws all men unto himself (see John 6:44, 65; 12:32).

The word of the gospel draws ALL who hear it, but some resist its drawing power. God calls and draws sinners unto Himself, but this calling and drawing are universal and resistible, not selective and irresistible (contrary to Calvinist teaching).

The third point is that God from eternity past in his foreknowledge has already foreseen who will and who will not meet His gracious gospel conditions by obeying His gracious gospel commands. God did not predestine anyone to believe and repent. He foreknew that they would believe and repent along with obeying the other gospel commands, and as a result He predestined them to final salvation.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 16:39:10
First, in all of the four elections you spoke about, why would this fifth election be any different in the sense that God's election here is sort of one that is attained or one in which one gets to be elected by his meeting some requirements that God specified for one to do, which is not so in the other elections of God? That sure is questionable and suspect.
Why would it be different? Because God said so.

Did God said it directly to you or through the scriptures? If through the scriptures, please show where God said so.

Quote from: Michael
4WD: God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.

That would make God's election for salvation as not by grace, but by one's meeting the conditions that you say one must meet in order to be elected for salvation. And if you translate that to salvation, salvation then would not be as scriptures says "by grace through faith", but would then be "by faith, repentance, confession, and baptism".
That statement, or one similar to it, has been said so often that some think that it must be true.  It is not!!  And it is absurd.  There is nothing about God's grace that precludes if from being conditional.  Conditional does not mean that it is meritorious. Just because God places conditions upon receiving salvation does not mean that salvation is earned.

So much erroneous teaching about God's grace derives from the false concept that conditional grace is not grace.  That is the sort of nonsense that drives me up a wall.  If I told you that I would send you one billion dollars if you would send me your address, and if you sent me your address and I sent you one billion dollars, would you really think that it wasn't a gift but that you had earned it?  I don't think so.  But when you say, "That would make God's election for salvation as not by grace", that is precisely the mistake you make. Salvation by grace does not preclude conditions. And trust me, salvation is worth much, much more than a measly one billion dollars.
 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can take your billion dollars analogy concerning the salvation of God, to the trash. It's way off the mark. Far far off the mark. Had I not told you in another post that you don't have to invent or think of an analogy to explain the salvation of God, when scriptures itself had provided one? There is no better analogy to use than what scriptures itself used, don't you agree?

One scriptural analogy is this. Man is likened to a slave, in the context of what a slave is, at least in the days of Moses, or as slavery is defined by scriptures. Man is a slave of sin and death reigns over him. We just have to ask ourselves then, how can a slave be saved in those days, or how can a slave be freed from slavery in those days? Think about that and not your own-made analogy of a billion dollars.

Another is that of the Good Shepherd and His lost sheep. Another is the new birth.

Any one of those I mentioned there does not involve any requirement to be met by man to be saved. In all of them, it is God alone who does the saving.

Speaking of John 12:37-40 you said:
Quote from: Michael
John 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
    and understand with their heart, and turn,
    and I would heal them.


Clearly, in verse 40, if God had not blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, they would have seen and understood with heart and they could have repented and believed and have been healed (saved). That is God's sovereignty my friend. Should I ask God why He hardened them that they could not believe, when He wants all people to be saved? I definitely will not. Will I think that God is unrighteous by that? I definitely will not.

John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
    and understand with their heart, and turn,
    and I would heal them.


Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

1 Cor.2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

Romans 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Does those in bold font sound selective and irresistible?

That gets into the whole topic of God's hardening.  That is a separate topic for a separate discussion.  So I will only make one comment here. And that is that God hardens only them who have a history of openly defying God;  there is no instance where we read that God hardened anyone contrary to his desires or thoughts. Although it is not specifically stated as hardening, that is what Paul describes in Romans 1 concerning the ungodly and unrighteous men (v.15).  He says "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...." (v.24)

Then I will not comment further if this is for another topic.

Quote from: Michael
Concerning election from before the foundation of the world, the position that the foreknowledge of God is that of their believing and repenting along with obeying the other gospel commands, is not found in scriptures. It is just the conclusion of some men, arrived at using and based only on their reasoning.

Concerning election this is what is clear in scriptures:

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
No it is not just the conclusion of some men.  Michael, Paul said it.  He said it in Romans 8:  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30 )The subject of this passage is those who love God.  Who did God predestine?  Those whom He foreknew. Foreknew what? That they were those who (would) love God.  They were the ones He predestined; they were the ones He chose, those were the ones he predestined. Those who He predestined, He called, etc.

No 4WD, Paul did not.

You asked "Foreknew what?". And your answer is "That they were those who (would) love God." That is your answer, not Paul's.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

And here's a revealing statement of Jesus to his disciples which you can further consider and think about.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In either case, God is always the first to love, the first to choose.

Those whom Paul said who love God are them who are first loved by God. It is because of that love of God that they love God, as John testifies to that. The election was first 4WD.

As I pointed time and again, we always must start with God and not man.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 16:44:26
OK, here is my reply:

The New Testament speaks of God as “choosing” or “electing” us, and Christians are called “the chosen ones” or “the elect.” The main verb for “choose” is eklegomai; the adjective (as in “chosen ones”) is eklektos; the noun (‘the chosen”) is eklogē. The words “elect,” “chosen,” and “predestined” carry similar connotations. A main point is that this language is used in different contexts with different applications. It does not always have to do with salvation, i.e., “chosen for salvation.”  Consider God's declaration concerning Jesus.

Luke 9:35  And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!"

Here God calls Jesus "My Chosen (ἐκλέγομαι - [eklegomai]) One".  (See also 35; see Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4,6).  Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.  Obviously Jesus was chosen not for salvation but for service. And He was certainly not chosen against His own will. 

Just as with Jesus, when used of human beings sometimes the language of election refers to being chosen for service, not for salvation. God decides to use certain individuals to play specific roles in His program of redemption. To create the nation of Israel God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Nehemiah 9:7; Romans 9:7-13). He chose Moses (Psalms 106:23) and David (Psalms 78:70; 139:16) among others. He even chose certain Gentile rulers to help carry out His purpose for Israel, e.g., Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1).

The language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation. (See Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Acts 13:17.) The nation of Israel was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9—a point which is usually missed completely in Reformed Theology. In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to Old Testament Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9);

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

This election, this divine choosing, is in part an election to service. When Peter describes the church as a “chosen race” here, he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

The language of election is sometimes applied to groups in the sense of election to salvation, but in a very special way. Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation. This is the key to understanding Paul’s treatment of predestination in Ephesians 1:1-14. His main point is not the predestination of individuals to salvation, but the predestination of all the Jews as a nation, and then the predestination of all the Gentiles also, to be a part of his chosen people. However, he is not here speaking of every individual Jew nor of every individual Gentile as the object of predestination to salvation, but of God’s choice to make salvation available to both groups and to unite both groups into one body, the church (see Ephesians 2:11-16; 3:1-10).

The key to this understanding is how Paul’s use of “we” and “you” in Ephesians 1.  There Paul refers to “we Jews” and “you Gentiles.” In this passage Paul identifies himself with the Jews, whom he calls “the first to hope in Christ” (v. 12). In the first part of the chapter he dwells on God’s purpose for the Jews as a nation: how God chose them, the Jews as a nation, before the foundation of the world, how he predestined them to adoption as sons, how he offered them the gospel of grace first (see Romans 1:16). It should be noted that the references to predestination in Ephesians 1 are strictly speaking of the predestination of the nation of Israel, not of individual believers. Paul’s main emphasis up through v. 12 is on God’s purpose for the Jews (“us”). But then in the next verses he begins speaking in the second person, “you,” i.e., you Gentiles. In v. 12 he says that “we who were the first to hope in Christ” were used to the praise of His glory, but now “you also” have been brought into the sphere of salvation “to the praise of His glory.” This is the theme he continues to develop, then, in chapters two and three especially.

So far we see that the Biblical language of election is used in several different ways. I have explained the first four such ways: (1) the election of Jesus as our the Redeemer; (2) the election of individuals to service, e.g., the patriarchs and the apostles; (3) the election election of groups (especially Israel) to service; and (4) the election of groups as categories of individuals to whom God offers his gift of salvation, specifically the Jews and the Gentiles.

There is the fifth way  that the Biblical language of election is used.  It is in this fifth way that most people tend to think of the "elect" or the "chosen" or the "predestined".  This fifth way, sometimes used in the Bible, is to refer to the fact that God has indeed elected or chosen or predestined some individuals to salvation. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize this. The difference between these groups is not that the former believes in predestination while the latter does not. The difference lies in the fact that the former (Calvinism) believes that such election is unconditional, while the latter (non-Calvinists) believes that it is conditional.

First, God does choose (elect, predestinate) some individuals to be saved. The language of election or choosing is definitely applied to us as individuals (see Romans 16:13). We are “the elect,” the ones chosen by God. (See, e.g., Matthew 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Revelation 17:14.)

Second, our election is conditional. I.e., God specifies in advance what conditions a sinner must meet in order to be chosen for salvation. In this New Covenant age these conditions, as clearly taught in the New Testament, are faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.  These actions are decisions we must make in order to be chosen by God for salvation. Faith and repentance are not gifts which God bestows arbitrarily upon some sinners while passing others by. Ephesians 2:8 does NOT say that faith is the gift of God; Greek grammar does not allow this interpretation 

It is obvious that some choose to meet these conditions, and some do not. The Bible says emphatically that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:2-4; 2 Peter 3:9), a fact that is clearly inconsistent with the whole idea of the unconditional election of only some to salvation. It is obvious also that not everyone is willing to meet the conditions God specifies in order to be among the chosen.

Jesus said concerning Jerusalem, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.” But in spite of Jesus’ own earnest desire (“I wanted”), he sadly acknowledges—“and you were unwilling” (Matthew 23:37). Jesus wanted to choose them, but they did not want to be chosen. This is how we must understand texts such as John 5:21, which says that “the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” In general He wishes to give life to all sinners, but Scripture makes clear that He will actually give life or salvation only to those who do those things He has specified as conditions for receiving it. These conditions are part of the gospel, through which God draws all men unto himself (see John 6:44, 65; 12:32).

The word of the gospel draws ALL who hear it, but some resist its drawing power. God calls and draws sinners unto Himself, but this calling and drawing are universal and resistible, not selective and irresistible (contrary to Calvinist teaching).

The third point is that God from eternity past in his foreknowledge has already foreseen who will and who will not meet His gracious gospel conditions by obeying His gracious gospel commands. God did not predestine anyone to believe and repent. He foreknew that they would believe and repent along with obeying the other gospel commands, and as a result He predestined them to final salvation.

That is your reply to this?

Quote from: Michael's Reply#21 to 4WD
In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to Old Testament Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9);

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Please show in scriptures where it speaks of the church as the new Israel, or that which speaks of the church as God's new elect body, or which speaks of a new Israel, so I can consider and study them. Else, that would only be your own-made doctrine, or Cottrell's?

You need to check out what Peter said there with what is written in Exodus 19:6.


This election, this divine choosing, is in part an election to service. When Peter describes the church as a “chosen race” here, he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

4WD: Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, the church is elected to proclaim the coming of Christ.

And that is your conclusion, right? That is not the conclusion of Peter, nor of Paul's, nor any of the apostles, right?

As I have pointed out in my other posts, of which this post is a continuation of, that the election of Israel is what we can read God said of Israel in Exodus 19:6, which says "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.", and is in keeping of God's promise to Abraham saying "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25).


The language of election is sometimes applied to groups in the sense of election to salvation, but in a very special way. Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation. This is the key to understanding Paul’s treatment of predestination in Ephesians 1:1-14. His main point is not the predestination of individuals to salvation, but the predestination of all the Jews as a nation, and then the predestination of all the Gentiles also, to be a part of his chosen people. However, he is not here speaking of every individual Jew nor of every individual Gentile as the object of predestination to salvation, but of God’s choice to make salvation available to both groups and to unite both groups into one body, the church (see Ephesians 2:11-16; 3:1-10).

4WD:Here the Bible speaks of a group as being chosen or predestined for salvation, not in the sense that every individual in the group will be saved, but in the sense that the group is chosen as the category of individuals to whom God is pleased to offer His gift of salvation.

You refer to the Jews as a group and the Gentiles as another group. That is just another way of referring to the whole world.

Now, the Jewish group and the Gentile group you say are chosen or predestined for salvation. And of course that does not even sound right, so that, it is imperative to qualify out that the election and predestination is not in the sense that every man will be saved, or that every Jew in the Jewish group will be saved, or every Gentile in the Gentile group will be saved. That really is a clever qualification, I would have to say. For even if only a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand of each of the group turns out to be saved, it satisfies the qualification, and no number of individuals would not satisfy the qualification. But so much with such comment. I have some question to you regarding this part of your post.

First I ask, if the Jewish group is chosen and predestined, and the Gentile group is also chosen and predestined, what group then is not chosen and predestined? 

Second, please show where in scriptures does it says that the Jews, as a group or category of people, were elected and predestined for salvation, and scriptures that says that the Gentiles, as a group or category of people, were elected and predestined for salvation, so I can consider and study them.

Third, can you tell us what the groups were specifically predestined to be? Are they predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ? That would not be, since the sense of predestination you say is not individual but as a group. So, tell us, especially that of the Gentile group. If you can show supporting scriptures, that would be great.

Fourth, what point in time did God made salvation available to both groups?

Fifth, prior to that time when salvation was made available to both groups, was there a time when salvation was not made available by God to one of the groups?

Sixth, before there were the Jewish group and the Gentile group, was salvation available? And if so, to what group was salvation available?


Well, it shows.....
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: 4WD on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 18:02:44
Maybe if I reprinted it bold 12pt or 14pt and used a bunch of different colors, it would help.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 17:51:16
PBKAC?
Hehe, we used to call than an ID ten-T error.  Probably not the most charitable way of putting it...
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Alan on Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 18:54:22
Hehe, we used to call than an ID ten-T error.  Probably not the most charitable way of putting it...


Yeah, that one is a bit harsh, especially for this forum.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: RB on Fri May 01, 2020 - 04:05:34
It could have been the loose nut behind the keyboard!
Alan said the same, but with more grace~ ::smile:: but I must agree that most likely and almost 100% that it was a  Problem Between Keyboard And Chair!

Better late than never, so I think I may make a few posts in this thread~not really sure why I have not before other than being sidetracked. Let me get caught up on what everyone has said thus far, and then post.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue May 05, 2020 - 18:37:59
Better late than never, so I think I may make a few posts in this thread~not really sure why I have not before other than being sidetracked. Let me get caught up on what everyone has said thus far, and then post.
RB, if you have time, please check out my posts #20,21,22,25,28,29. It would be nice to hear a word two from you about them.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Elect
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue May 05, 2020 - 18:59:16
Topic: The Elect

2 Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christians, in the quoted scriptures above, who are the elect Paul is referring to there, who Paul said he endures all things for their sake that they ALSO may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory?