Author Topic: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man  (Read 610 times)

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Offline RB

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The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« on: Sun Aug 15, 2021 - 05:51:26 »
Starting a new thread using 4WD's post from here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-universal-reign-of-god/

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RB, You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be.  The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters.  There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham.  We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.

Guess who is not mentioned in all of that Chapter as having faith. We read not a single word about the faith OF Jesus in that entire chapter. If, as you insist, our salvation rests upon the faith of Jesus, certainly Hebrews of all the books in the NT, would have said something about the faith of Jesus.  Jesus occupies the central theme in Hebrews.  The great subject of the book is Jesus Christ.  And yet for all of that, not one thing is ever said about Jesus having or needing faith. That is because the very idea that Jesus needed to have faith in God is simply ludicrous.

All those spoken of in Hebrews 11 were mentioned because of their faith in God.  But Jesus isn't one of them.  Why?  Simple! Jesus did not need to have faith in God, He was God in the flesh. He is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2).  Jesus is the subject of our faith.  It is that faith, faith IN Jesus, whereby we are saved.  (KJV)Gen 15:6  And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him for righteousness. It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him for righteousness.  It is our faith, our believing, in God, in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that is counted to us for righteousness; counted to us for righteousness, i.e., justified, i.e, saved.

John tells us that he wrote his gospel "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31)

It is by believing, by having faith, that we have eternal life.  It is our believing; it is our faith.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 07:26:46
RB, You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be.
That's your take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law, which to any unbiased person, who can think for themselves and outside of the box of the many false religions in Mystery Babylon they should be able to reason within the parameter's of God's testimony to us......the holy scriptures that the obedience/faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ is the only material cause of God's mercy to us in making us the righteousness of God, which gives us the right to eternal life.

The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us.

That being said the only way these truths can be maintained in their purity is to proclaim Jesus' faith and obedience as the Son of Man for the remission of our sins and the manner in which man receives the righteousness of God and the manner in which man in the flesh can live and please God. God declares this truth powerfully when he said:
 
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 07:26:46
The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters.  There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham.  We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.
I'm doing this one point at a time, so please wait until I'm finished before commenting on this thread, Your time will come, be patient, I know that's hard for you.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 15, 2021 - 12:25:43 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #1 on: Sun Aug 15, 2021 - 07:51:05 »
I'm doing this one point at a time, so please wait until I'm finished before commenting on this thread, Your time will come, be patient, I know that's hard for you.
There is no need to go further. Adding more points will not resolve the errors already introduced in your first point. Therefore I am not going to wait until you are finished.

In my objection to your use of the phrase Faith OF Jesus you said:
Quote
That's you take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law
That is the first of your errors.  I have never said, or even suggested, that it is our faith which justified us legally before God's law. Moreover, I don't know anyone who has. Beyond that, the concept of being justified legally is more than a little strange.  Theologically the term justify is a legal concept.  It is a declaration of righteousness.

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state). My main concern here is the act. Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does. It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. “Justification has a distinct meaning.” What is this meaning? I know that you feel it is unnecessary to consider the original Greek language in studying the NT, nevertheless a brief look at some Greek terminology will put us on the proper track and give the proper understanding of the term as it is used. The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness.

The problem is to identify the proper connection between them. In Christian theology since the Reformation there have been two main competing views of the meaning of justification as it relates to righteousness. One is that justification means that God declares us righteous by imputing righteousness to us; the other is that justification means that God makes us righteous by imparting righteousness to us. Most Protestants believe that God actually does both of these things; the issue is, which is the proper definition of justification? That is, in a nutshell, one of the major differences between the Catholic view and the [typical] protestant view.  I will not go into the Catholic view here.  I will simply state that justification means to declare righteous rather than to make righteous is seen in the use of the verb dikaioo in Luke 7:29, which says literally that the people who heard Jesus’ teaching about John the Baptist “justified God” (KJV).

Obviously this cannot mean that the people made God righteous; they were simply declaring or acknowledging him to be righteous. Thus the NASB translates this as “They acknowledged God’s justice,” and the NIV says they “acknowledged that God’s way was right.” Likewise when God justifies us he is not making us righteous but is declaring us so. That this is the proper meaning of the concept is also seen in the fact that in Scripture justification is basically a legal (judicial, forensic) concept. That is, in the Bible it is a judge’s verdict or finding after he has considered the evidence and found a person to be innocent. “To justify” is always the opposite of “to condemn.” For example, Deuteronomy 25:1 says that when men go to court, “the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.” Likewise Proverbs 17:15 condemns a corrupt judge “who justifies the wicked” and “condemns the righteous” (see Isa 5:23). This same contrast between justification and condemnation is seen in God’s own judicial verdict: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?” (Rom 8:33-34; see Matt 12:37). When a judge condemns someone he does not thereby make that person guilty; he only discovers and declares him to be so. Likewise when a judge justifies someone he does not thereby make that person innocent or righteous; he simply declares him to be so.

There is a major difference between justification as an act of a human judge and justification as a saving act of God. Human judges, unless they are corrupt (Prov 17:15), justify only the innocent; they declare someone righteous only if he is indeed already righteous or innocent. This is what the law requires. But in the act of salvation God justifies guilty sinners (Rom 4:5); he declares the unrighteous to be righteous! How can God go against the standards of his own law (Deut 25:1) and do the very thing that he himself has forbidden in Proverbs 17:15? When God justifies us, he is declaring that, even though we are sinners, we are now “square” with the law. How can this be since we as sinners have broken the commands of the law? First we must remember that the way of salvation is grace, not law; and the principles by which grace operates are the very opposite of law, as we saw in the previous chapter.

But this is not the whole story. In order to understand precisely what is happening in justification, we must remember that law consists not  only of commands but also of penalties. There is no longer any way that a sinner can be right with the law (i.e., justified) in reference to its commands, since we are guilty of breaking them. When God justifies us, he is not declaring that we are innocent and have never broken the law’s commands. Rather, justification is God’s declaration that we are right with the law in reference to its penalty. It means that God treats us not as if we are innocent, because we are not; rather, it means that he treats us as if our penalty has already been paid—which it has!

The best way for a Christian to understand what it means to be justified is to picture himself as a defendant standing in a courtroom before God as the presiding Judge, and to hear God pronounce his verdict: “No penalty for you!” Many will say that God’s judicial declaration is “Not guilty!” but I do not accept this. Justification does not remove our guilt, but it deals with it by removing the condemnation that goes with it (Rom 8:1). Thus the Judge’s precise declaration is “No penalty for you!” To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty. Basically justification is the same as forgiveness of sins, remission of sins, and the washing away of sins (in the sense that God removes them from the books and does not hold them against us).

This becomes clear as we follow Paul’s line of thought from Rom 3:27 through Rom 4:8  After asserting the fact of and using the language of justification throughout this passage, Paul proves his point by citing Ps 32:1-2, “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD will not take into account.” This shows that justification and forgiveness are one and the same. God justifies sinners by forgiving them, by not holding their sins against them.

It is important to see that justification is thus not a change in our character or in our inner nature; it is a change in our relationship to God and especially to God’s law. The change is objective, not subjective. It solves the problem of guilt, not the problem of corruption. It is also important to see that this change is not a gradual process, but is an immediate and complete change in our status before God. By God’s pronouncement, at a specific, instantaneous moment we are changed from being 0% forgiven to being 100% forgiven before God. The abiding state of justification begins in that instant and continues in its fullness (100%) for as long as we remain in union with Christ. Justification is not just the forgiveness of individual sins, but the forgiveness of the entire person; it is a state of being for the Christian.

I understand that this was probably too long for most to read and consider.  But I feel that it is important to get the basics correct.  And the basics here is why I would never claim, as you asserted, that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law .  It is God that justifies.

All I have done so far is to define biblical justification.  I haven't even gotten to the questions of what is the basis for that justification and what are the means for that justification.  That has to do with whom God justifies.  But I will leave that for later.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #2 on: Sun Aug 15, 2021 - 08:07:53 »
That's you take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means
But you haven't done that at all.  You haven't even tried to explain what is means for Jesus to have faith.  That was the whole purpose of my post that you quoted here as the starting point.  But you seem to have missed that purpose completely.  The faith OF Jesus, like the faith OF God, is a meaningless concept.  My purpose was to show you that your concept of the faith OF Jesus is unbiblical.  It is that to which Johntwayne posted "AMEN". And speaking to the title of this topic, there is no such thing as "The faith of Jesus" as you are using it.  Therefore before you proceed further, I would like you to address that issue.

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #2 on: Sun Aug 15, 2021 - 08:07:53 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #3 on: Mon Aug 16, 2021 - 11:46:52 »
Since you have apparently decided not to pursue your line of argument, I have two options before me.  I could similarly choose not to pursue it or I could continue to point out the errors in your OP.  I have chosen, for now, the second option.
The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us. 
That is indeed true.  However, such "efficient cause" does not preclude God from establishing the basis upon which He exercises man's redemption. And indeed He has done just that.

Previously I defined justification as a divine declaration. It means that God as Judge declares us to be righteous with respect to his law. The next critical question is on what basis does God make this declaration?  Since God himself is righteous, he cannot say or do anything that violates his own holy nature or do anything that ignores the requirements of his holy law. Therefore if God justifies us or declares us righteous, there must be a basis or rationale for that declaration. What is it? One possible basis for justification would be the individual’s own personal righteousness, his own works or accomplishments. This would be the case if the person were completely righteous with respect to the law’s commandments, i.e., if he were 100% innocent. In this case the Judge would be required to say, “No penalty for you,” since the person is literally not guilty of any sin and does not deserve any punishment. Such would be a true justification by works.

This possibility will never become a reality, though, since all have sinned and no one is 100% innocent (Rom 3:20,23). There is another possible way for a person to be justified (declared righteous) by his own personal righteousness. This would happen if one did indeed break the law but then himself actually took the full punishment for doing so. In this case the person would be righteous with respect to the law’s penalty rather than its commands. Once the penalty was paid, the Judge could declare, “No further penalty for you.” This happens on a human level when a criminal serves his full sentence, thus “paying his debt to society,” and is released from prison. The reason this will never happen in the divine Judge’s courtroom, though, is that the penalty for sins is eternal suffering in hell. Because the penalty is eternal, condemned sinners will never reach the point when they have completely satisfied the law’s penal requirement. They will forever be paying their debt of punishment.

Thus because of the fact of universal sinfulness, and because of the nature of the punishment deserved by sin, no one will ever be justified on the basis of any type of human righteousness.

What is the alternative? The only alternative, and the only true basis for justifying sinners, is God’s own righteousness imputed or credited to the sinner’s account. If we attempt to stand before God on the judgment day dressed only in our own righteousness—a “filthy garment” (Isa 64:6)—we will be condemned, not justified. That is why God offers to clothe us with “a robe of righteousness” that he himself has prepared (Isa 61:10). This leads Paul to say that on that day he wants to “be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil 3:9). The gospel is the power of God for salvation because “in it the righteousness of God is revealed,” to take the place of our own futile human righteousness (Rom 1:16-17). Anyone who rejects God’s righteousness and seeks to establish his own righteousness as a basis for acceptance by God is doomed to be rejected (Rom 10:3).

The righteousness of God that serves as the basis for justification is not the divine attribute of righteousness or justice as such, especially if this is understood as God’s own perfect moral character and his perfect legal justice that requires sin to be punished. The righteousness of God that justifies is rather a gift given to sinners, like a robe woven by God then offered to and accepted by the sinner, who wears it as if it were his own (Isa 61:10). It is a righteousness that is outside of God and “comes from God” (Phil 3:9) and is applied to us. When God sees this righteousness in our possession, he declares, “No penalty for you!”

Specifically, this righteousness of God is the righteousness of God the Son in the person of Jesus Christ. In fact the main purpose of the incarnation was to establish a divine righteousness that could be used as the basis for justifying sinners. An image frequently used to represent this transfer of righteousness is imputation, which is based on the Greek verb logizomai. When used in the context of justification, this word derives its meaning from the way it was used by Greeks in the field of business or commerce. It was a technical term that described the procedure of entering a credit or a debit to someone’s account. It is properly translated “to credit, to set down to one’s account, to impute, to reckon, to count as, to regard as.”

An illustration of the concept is Paul’s exhortation to Philemon (v. 18, NKJV) regarding any debt owed to him by his runaway slave Onesimus: “Put that on my account.” This concept explains what was happening on the cross, when our sins were imputed to Christ; and it explains what is happening in justification, when Christ’s righteousness is imputed or credited to us.

Exactly what is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to our account? We will remember that strictly speaking righteousness means “conformity to a norm.” Where salvation from sin is concerned, the relevant norm is the law of God, and justification can happen only when the requirements of the law have been satisfied as mandated by God’s own holy nature. This is what Jesus came to accomplish. In essence the righteousness of God and the basis for our justification is the fact that Jesus satisfied the requirements of the law in our place, and in justification his satisfaction of these requirements is imputed to our account.

Here I want to be very clear.  Most Protestants are in agreement up to this point, but at this point a serious error is often made. It is so often assumed that the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us includes his active righteousness, i.e., his satisfaction of or obedience to the commandments of the law. With Christ’s perfect obedience put down on our account, God can look at us and declare us “not guilty,” thus treating us just as if we had never sinned. But this is NOT correct. Christ did indeed obey the law perfectly, but he did so because as a human being this was his own personal responsibility and duty. It was necessary for his own sake; it was what he ought to have done, even apart from his saving purposes. Thus in terms of his active righteousness, even the sinless Christ is an “unprofitable servant” (Luke 17:10, KJV). He has no extra merits left over, so to speak, to share with anyone else. This flies in the face of the teaching that our justification comes from Christ's own faith [whatever one thinks that might be] and His perfect obedience. This does not mean, of course, that his perfect obedience is irrelevant to our salvation. His perfect life was a prerequisite for his perfect sacrifice. Without the former, he could not have been the latter.

What, then, is imputed to our account as the basis for our justification? Not Christ’s active righteousness—his doing, but his passive righteousness—his dying. Jesus not only satisfied the commandments of the law; he also satisfied the law’s requirements for penalty. He took its punishment in our place through his substitutionary and propitiatory death on the cross (2 Cor 5:21). This is the “one act of righteousness” that constitutes the righteousness of God: “Even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” (Rom 5:18). Thus the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel and imputed to our account is Christ’s satisfaction, on our behalf, of the law’s requirement for penalty. In essence the righteousness of God is the blood of Christ. This is why I have said that to be justified (declared righteous) does not mean that I am treated just as if I’d never sinned, but just as if I’d already paid the penalty of eternal hell. As sinners justified by the blood of Christ we do not have to worry about hell because (as far as God is concerned) we have already been there, have paid our eternal debt, and have been released (Rom 8:1).  We did that in Christ.

That is the basis by which God can justify mankind while staying true to His holy nature that demands punishment for sin and staying true to His love and mercy for all mankind.

Thus I have laid down the concept of justification, i.e., what it means to be justified before God. I then also established the basis by which God is able to grant that gift of justification while remaining true to his divine character and traits.  But that so far has not established upon whom that gift of justification is given.

Perhaps later on that.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 16, 2021 - 11:51:53 by 4WD »

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #3 on: Mon Aug 16, 2021 - 11:46:52 »
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Offline RB

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #4 on: Mon Aug 16, 2021 - 15:55:47 »
4WD~I'm not finished just I got a little deter that you could not at least waited a little longer than you did.

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
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Offline RB

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 17, 2021 - 04:09:19 »
Thus I have laid down the concept of justification, i.e., what it means to be justified before God. I then also established the basis by which God is able to grant that gift of justification while remaining true to his divine character and traits.  But that so far has not established upon whom that gift of justification is given. Perhaps later on that.
Go ahead I'll wait~but one word of caution for you: I ask that you stop attempting to circumvent Scripture, and simply receive what it says. Wake up to the sweet odor of God's word.

I just read your last post and it was a cunning way of eisegesis God's word. I shall labor to prove this after you post your next post, in the meantime, I may go back to your first post above and finish that one if you allow me to do so without interrupting me~Or else, it would be impossible to have a profitable discussion.

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 17, 2021 - 04:09:19 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 17, 2021 - 06:57:33 »
I ask that you stop attempting to circumvent Scripture, and simply receive what it says. Wake up to the sweet odor of God's word.
Interesting.  That has been my appeal to you these many years here at the forum.

So often you remind me of John Gill.  Every time the meaning of some straight forward verse or passage of scripture goes against John Gill's theological position, his analysis is carried out with the "not that .....but rather...." argument; thus denying that the scripture means precisely what the scripture says.  That is seen in his explanation of passages such as Mark 1:4, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 4:3, Romans 6:3, Ephesians 2:8, Galatians 3:27 and so many others. In all of these Gill denies what is clearly stated and gives an explanation that is in accordance with his faulty theology.  In so many of these the subject matter is faith or baptism and the efficacy of either or both.  Talk about circumventing Scripture!
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 17, 2021 - 07:11:32 by 4WD »

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #7 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 04:57:37 »
Well is it the fruit of the spirit or the fruit of man?

Here is a tricky one as well to get your head around.

Matthew 28:19-20
New King James Version
19 Go [a]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

IN the NAME of the FATHER ...........AND............the son .............AND the Holy Spirit.

You have to understand when the old saints baptised people . They knew the Father as 1. They knew the Son as 1. They knew the Holy Spirit as 1. They had a relationship with each . When they baptised people. They opened the kingdom that they knew . Silver and gold have I none but what I have I give to you. They had a relationship with the 3 fold spirit of God. They opened up there spiritual gates  to the one who was being baptised. They opened up there relationship with the Father , the son and the Holy Spirit. They baptised them by opening up there spiritual connection to the 3 .They unlocked  3 keys of the kingdom over there life. The best kick start in the kingdom that comes upon. . He she came out of the water with a 3 fold cord , not easily broken. The Lord says stuff in 3s

It’s not your faith but his you live in. You live in the father , you live in the son, you live in the Holy Spirit.

What is faith? It is a substance

This substance is his life that you FEEL , that gives you hope .

Your faith is only a measure of the life of Christ that lives  in you.


« Last Edit: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 05:32:34 by Bemark »

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 05:13:50 »
Total complete Faith is the substance of the Father , the Son , the Holy Spirit, in your life as one.

This substance is achieved by being with them as a individual part,of God in the kingdom. Ie father son and Holy Ghost. They offer a different part of the God head to those who believe. There is a reason for this for our lives to be complete in him. To know them as God

The same Jesus who told the 12 to go out and do signs and wonders in his name , was the same Lord who showed up to Moses,  so he would do signs and wonders  in Egypt. IN HIS NAME. In his name was not a magic word. It’s his surrounding presence by relationship and commission.

Moses faith was built up in being with Christ. But still he doubted in his own ability. Ok Aron can come along. He lacked in his own faith. It was never about him. He just had to show up . Deliver the word of the Lord.  That’s Christ’s word. That spoke to him face to face as a MAN . Then the faith of Jesus , the lords substance would preform  the signs and wonders.

Like he asked the disciples to do in the NT
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 05:39:23 by Bemark »

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 05:13:50 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #9 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 05:24:16 »
The 12 was sent forth but hey couldn’t do the works of Jesus. Jesus said they lacked faith. Spiritual substance. Who’s substance did they lack?

The substance of the kingdom. In my name you will


In the substance ( my presence  ) of who I Am you will

Faith
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 06:01:45 by Bemark »

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 06:06:24 »
That why some pray and nothing happens . They have little faith.   They have little connection to the son. They may have connected to the father  and the Holy Spirit. Many faith healers read the NT works of Jesus before they go out......why........they are tapping into him as the healer. So his substance will heal the sick. In my name you shall

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 06:41:22 »
Total complete Faith is the substance of the Father , the Son , the Holy Spirit, in your life as one.
Actually, the substance of the Triune God is LOVE. 

1 John 4:8b
God is love.


And love is not the same as faith:

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Offline Rella

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 19, 2021 - 08:12:03 »
Well is it the fruit of the spirit or the fruit of man?

Here is a tricky one as well to get your head around.

Matthew 28:19-20
New King James Version
19 Go [a]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

IN the NAME of the FATHER ...........AND............the son .............AND the Holy Spirit.

You have to understand when the old saints baptised people . They knew the Father as 1. They knew the Son as 1. They knew the Holy Spirit as 1. They had a relationship with each . When they baptised people. They opened the kingdom that they knew . Silver and gold have I none but what I have I give to you. They had a relationship with the 3 fold spirit of God. They opened up there spiritual gates  to the one who was being baptised. They opened up there relationship with the Father , the son and the Holy Spirit. They baptised them by opening up there spiritual connection to the 3 .They unlocked  3 keys of the kingdom over there life. The best kick start in the kingdom that comes upon. . He she came out of the water with a 3 fold cord , not easily broken. The Lord says stuff in 3s

It’s not your faith but his you live in. You live in the father , you live in the son, you live in the Holy Spirit.

What is faith? It is a substance

This substance is his life that you FEEL , that gives you hope .

Your faith is only a measure of the life of Christ that lives  in you.

Interesting way to explain the Trinity and baptism. This deserves its own thread for those who do not believe in the three... as to why one would be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Perhaps I shall start one for comments.

But this , while opening up one to their potential salvation (I state it like that as I know of one , who in his youth, was
dipped.... but not because of a new found belief but simply because ...) has zero to do with Jesus' faith in us (RB) or the Trinity's faith in us ( you)

We are told without faith it is impossible to please God ~ Hebrews 11:6

         WHY?   Because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek
                    him.


We are told  "FAITH"  comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. ~Romans 10:17

We are told we walk by faith, not by sight~ 2 Corinthians 5:7

IOW we are told we must possess a personal belief ( faith) in Christ for salvation to even be on the table.

And I phrase it like that knowing people who at one time did "believe" but grew away into nothingness.

Offline Bemark

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #13 on: Fri Aug 20, 2021 - 03:09:35 »
Or the trinity’s  faith in us ( you )

You lost me , I don’t understand what you just said ...was the you (me)

Offline Bemark

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #14 on: Fri Aug 20, 2021 - 03:24:38 »
Actually, the substance of the Triune God is LOVE. 

1 John 4:8b
God is love.


And love is not the same as faith:

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

yes coming down upon us is love. How do we receive this love ....by faith.....see the very first word ...faith

We access him by faith....if you believe

Not if you have love . Your love doesn’t save you. His love does. Your faith in him does.

There are many amazing people who love. God describes these as our enemies. Our loved ones who don’t have faith



Offline Bemark

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #15 on: Fri Aug 20, 2021 - 03:26:54 »
If you have faith , you will express it as love

Offline Bemark

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Re: The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
« Reply #16 on: Fri Aug 20, 2021 - 03:33:10 »
God is love .  A substance that we didn’t have before. Faith in him